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  • sh9wntm
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    • February 23, 2018, 03:23:39 pm
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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #140 on: December 28, 2018, 09:31:33 am »
I think the most reasonable thing to do is to make an immigration sub-category that allows Central American/ Mexican unskilled labor to come in easier and work towards citizenship. Maybe take out extra taxes to expedite their citizenship. Maybe they are subject to a different minimum wage working towards citizenship. The goal ought to be documenting more people and making the legal way the path of least resistance.

I really don't think a wall does much in the 21st century. Think about it, people can just book a flight and "get lost" in LA or take a boat from Baja. A wall is a band-aid on the underlying issue.


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #141 on: December 28, 2018, 09:42:47 am »
I think the most reasonable thing to do is to make an immigration sub-category that allows Central American/ Mexican unskilled labor to come in easier and work towards citizenship. Maybe take out extra taxes to expedite their citizenship. Maybe they are subject to a different minimum wage working towards citizenship. The goal ought to be documenting more people and making the legal way the path of least resistance.

I really don't think a wall does much in the 21st century. Think about it, people can just book a flight and "get lost" in LA or take a boat from Baja. A wall is a band-aid on the underlying issue.

Yeah I actually think something like this would be best, too. I don't think the US could afford to just kick out all of the illegal immigrants. Something like 50% of all farm workers are here illegally? I'm not sure about other industries... Then again, I don't know if the farming industry could afford to pay minimum wage, assuming the workers eventually become citizens. It's definitely a big problem, but blowing a bunch of money on a wall doesn't seem like a fix for anything.


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #142 on: December 28, 2018, 11:02:49 am »
I floated this idea awhile back, and while it's practicality and likelihood are low, I do think it has some "Hmm..." qualities.

Essentially, the U.S. and Mexico should operate some sort of trade and economic development+migration zone along the border which serves as a temporary area for people who want to migrate to the U.S. Potential employers could hire from there and do it in a controlled fashion, and there could be some sort of permanent industrial projects there as well. Such a zone could also attract small businesses as people would no doubt want to cater to the people residing there. While it would be "walled" off, the wall wouldn't so much be a wall as a mishmash of a barrier and a bazaar.

I'm sure there's 50,000 things wrong with this idea, but I think Trump was sort of onto something with some of his earlier plans for the wall involving businesses and some other money-making schemes rather than some glorified moat and Night's Watch.


  • CDW
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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #143 on: December 28, 2018, 12:45:04 pm »


  • gogators!
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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #144 on: December 28, 2018, 09:11:48 pm »
Yep, a clear majority of Americans oppose and have opposed a wall because they're smart enough to know it won't work. Trump is, as always, pandering to his base and lying to cover that up.


  • Adel
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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #145 on: December 29, 2018, 12:11:22 am »


Who's going to pay for it?

Wasn't the old campaign punchline "'MEXICO"?

So what gives with the shut down?

I guess emotion always trumps logic in the cult.  :laugh:


  • Adel
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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #146 on: January 10, 2019, 03:06:40 pm »


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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #147 on: January 10, 2019, 03:45:17 pm »
I liked the Twitter contest to name the worst Trump-related sitcoms.

My favorite was: "The Lying Sanders Show".


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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #148 on: January 16, 2019, 09:50:33 pm »
Quote
“The Trump administration had initially estimated the shutdown would cost the economy 0.1 percentage point in growth every two weeks that employees were without pay,” Reuters reported. “But on Tuesday, there was an updated figure: 0.13 percentage points every week because of the impact of work left undone by 380,000 furloughed employees as well as work left aside by federal contractors,” a White House official said.

In a statement to reporters, the official broke it down: “That includes the effect of work not done by 380,000 furloughed Federal workers (0.08 p.p. per week) plus the work not done by Federal contractors (0.05 p.p. per week),” the official said.

Given that the 0.1% hit on growth happens every week instead of every two weeks, the cost of the shutdown has essentially doubled.

Maybe Mexico will pay for it?!?


  • Mr C
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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #149 on: January 17, 2019, 12:17:55 am »


As is usually the case, your quoted sources are just completely non-factual.  Please, please learn some facts and come back to us. Donald Trump is not someone who you should quote like they are telling the truth.

First off, Trump is no longer about "the Wall"--remember, it was a thirty-foot-high-concrete-wall-1950-miles-long--he's very happy with a 10 foot metal lattice.  If that doesn't tell you your "leader" is a dissembling, lying pile of BS, then I pity you.

Secondly … never mind, I just pity you.


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #150 on: January 17, 2019, 06:52:13 am »


As is usually the case, your quoted sources are just completely non-factual.  Please, please learn some facts and come back to us. Donald Trump is not someone who you should quote like they are telling the truth.

First off, Trump is no longer about "the Wall"--remember, it was a thirty-foot-high-concrete-wall-1950-miles-long--he's very happy with a 10 foot metal lattice.  If that doesn't tell you your "leader" is a dissembling, lying pile of BS, then I pity you.

Secondly … never mind, I just pity you.

Mr. C, you do realize that one negotiation tactic is you do a big ask and stake out an extreme position and then work towards the middle, right? In fact most Trump voters understood Trump was doing that. It's one of Trump's various tactics he uses including things like A-B testing (which his critics describe as incoherence), thinking past the sale, and his deliberate misspellings as attention getters. Trump even sends subtle signals to his fans who are "in on the joke" and recognize what he's doing.

It's only his clueless critics who take him literally that don't understand these basic sales notions.

Again Mr. C, his tactics are obvious to anyone with a lick of street-smarts. A 45 year old ajumma with a high school education who shops and haggles at the local market would have a better grasp of what Trump is doing than his clueless academic critics who crap themselves in fear when it comes to haggling and dealing with salespeople.


  • Mr C
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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #151 on: January 17, 2019, 07:12:08 am »


As is usually the case, your quoted sources are just completely non-factual.  Please, please learn some facts and come back to us. Donald Trump is not someone who you should quote like they are telling the truth.

First off, Trump is no longer about "the Wall"--remember, it was a thirty-foot-high-concrete-wall-1950-miles-long--he's very happy with a 10 foot metal lattice.  If that doesn't tell you your "leader" is a dissembling, lying pile of BS, then I pity you.

Secondly … never mind, I just pity you.

Mr. C, you do realize ...

Dude, for the last time, if you "realize" something, you can be assured that I realized it a month before you.  My comment has nothing to do with negotiation tactics, but with quoting Donald J Drumpf as a source of facts.


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #152 on: January 17, 2019, 07:45:39 am »
DeMartino - nobody believes your interpretation of Trump's "tactics", which you've expressed several times before, because it's simply not convincing. It's an appealing narrative, especially if you like to fancy to yourself as smarter than all the dumb rubes out there while remaining anti-elitist and part of the honest, hardscrabble masses. Are you swayed by this argument?

Quote
In fact most Hillary Clinton voters understood that Clinton was performing a kind of meta-critique of Washington by speaking about economic inequality through one side of her mouth and negotiating with Wall Street lobbyists through the other. It's one of her various tactics for exposing the rot at the heart of American politics without alienating her supporters concerned with economic justice. She does things like A-B testing in real time (which her critics describe as hypocrisy), thinking past the controversy, and uses accusations of "double standards" as attention getters, effectively earning free publicity for the work she's doing on behalf of the hard-pressed working class. Clinton even sends subtle signals to her fans who are "in on the joke" and recognize what's going on.

It's only her clueless critics who look at her actions, rather than the intention behind them, that don't understand these basic notions of performative critique. She's a street fighter from the mean streets of Chicago, so it's predictable that people from more pampered backgrounds wouldn't be able to receive all these signals, since they've got their transmitters permanently tuned to "corruption" distractions.

Again, an appealing argument for her supporters. Also, total BS. Just like your take on Trump.


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #153 on: January 17, 2019, 08:44:05 am »
Dude, for the last time, if you "realize" something, you can be assured that I realized it a month before you.  My comment has nothing to do with negotiation tactics, but with quoting Donald J Drumpf as a source of facts.
You still haven't realized it. Donald Trump is not trying to provide facts. He is trying to manipulate or persuade. By only looking at Donald Trump through the lens of "A Source of Facts" you are not looking at things completely.

This is like the 3rd or 4th time I've had to explain to you basic concepts that anyone with an ounce of street smarts understands. Like, this is so basic it should be instinctual. You start with a "Big Ask" and then you negotiate to the middle. If you start at the middle, you put yourself in a disadvantageous position.

And guess what, his supporters know this. They know that Trump's big demands are about staking out a negotiating position from which to compromise. Not his actual promise.

Now you can still think Trump is a liar, a cheat, and the wall is a moronic idea. But have an ounce of street smarts and recognize the Big Ask at work.


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #154 on: January 17, 2019, 09:31:29 am »
I don't think you realize that a lot of people genuinely find it morally reproachable to constantly lie, especially when you're an elected, tax-funded public official. In fact, given Trump's numerous referrals to Lyin' Ted, Lyin' James Comey and the lying media, one can safely assume that he expects his supporters to consider lying objectionable. So on what grounds should we drop that basic moral standard - when Trump is employing one of his negotiating tactics? Do we reactive it for other situations? As much as you want to pretend that veracity and transparency are unimportant, disposable values, a lot of us simply disagree, and we're well within our rights to demand more from the people who are paid by us to act in our best interests.

I think you want to regard Trump, Kellyanne Conway and Sarah Sanders' watery stream of vapid bullshit as some kind of transgressive, subversive troll against entrenched media power and the moral posturing of SJWs. And you want to be part of the small, clever group of elite anti-elitists who could read the situation correctly while the dumb sheeple were hypnotized by some random talking head on CNN shouting about Russia. The problem is, again, that your arguments are completely unconvincing. It's not a question of being unexposed to them, or unable to comprehend them. I've listened to hours of Scott Adams blathering on about exactly the same stuff, then responding to any demand for moral accountability with a lazy deflection or weak whataboutism. Many of us understand these arguments perfectly well. We just think they're garbage. 


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #155 on: January 17, 2019, 09:55:27 am »
I don't think you realize that a lot of people genuinely find it morally reproachable to constantly lie, especially when you're an elected, tax-funded public official.
Politicians and lying go hand in hand. They make empty promises all the time. Obama did the same thing with his Obamacare pitch. He oversold it to try and bring people on board, same as Trump. That's fine. I'm not an idiot, I know it's not going to work out as perfectly as he presents it and some things will get cut in negotiation. I never blamed him for that. I was opposed to Obamacare because it was a half-measure. We should have an NHS-style system, and if we aren't keep things as is.

Also, Trump is not my pastor. The person in charge of your government ideally should be virtuous, but if the choice is between an effective asshole vs. an ineffective nice guy, give me the asshole. Just make sure they don't get too out of line.

Furthermore Trump lying is rather minor compared to NeoCons/NeoLibs like Clinton and Bush who want to bomb their way across the Middle East and provoke conflicts with Russia and China. Notice how we missed the annual fall freakout when North Korea issues some bombastic statement and lobs a few shells somewhere? You know, where newbie English teachers get panicked calls from home and everyone knows that one newbie who was forced to move back or crapped themselves in fear and ran? Kind of nice not having that.

Quote
As much as you want to pretend that veracity and transparency are unimportant, disposable values, a lot of us simply disagree, and we're well within our rights to demand more from the people who are paid by us to act in our best interests.
They are important. At least Trump doesn't pretend to be a saint and you know 95% of what comes out of his mouth is bullshit and he doesn't pretend it isn't. Or are you one of those people who think Hillary Clinton represented transparency, honesty, and morality? Please.

Quote
Many of us understand these arguments perfectly well. We just think they're garbage.
You could produce audio recordings of Trump literally explaining his strategy and planning it and you'd still think my point about what he's doing is garbage. Look at all his renegotiated trade deals. He had big asks in all of them and got a bunch of minor improvements. But guess what, you total up those minor improvements and you get a pretty good improvement overall.

The reason I think Trump is doing these things and that the wall and Mexico paying for it was a "Big Ask" and attention getter is that it fits in with what both you and I agree and acknowledge about Trump- He's a huckster salesman who knows how to play to the crowd and plays fast and loose with the truth.

Contrary to many, I don't think Trump is an idiot. I think he is very crafty. He may not be book smart or wise, but he is not to be dismissed as a moron.

The wall being a big ask fits in perfectly with Trump's personality, hence why it is likely the truth.


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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #156 on: January 17, 2019, 11:32:58 am »
If you read/watch interviews with real businessmen who have made deals with Trump then you'll find that Trump knows nothing about the "Art of the Deal".

Trump is a grifter, not a businessman. He's good for licencing his brand, ripping off contractors/clients and receiving laundered money from Russian oligarchs.


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #157 on: January 17, 2019, 11:37:58 am »
If you read/watch interviews with real businessmen who have made deals with Trump then you'll find that Trump knows nothing about the "Art of the Deal".

Trump is a grifter, not a businessman. He's good for licencing his brand, ripping off contractors/clients
This doesn't contradict my point about Trump using bazaar salesman tactics and this being a big ask with him coming down.

Not saying there aren't more effective sales techniques or that this is in somehow an honest pitch. Just that Mr. C's view that this is Trump being dishonest and 100% lying to us about what he wants isn't really identifying what's going on. There's a difference between an outright lie and staking out a maximum position before negotiating.


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #158 on: January 17, 2019, 12:21:58 pm »
If you read/watch interviews with real businessmen who have made deals with Trump then you'll find that Trump knows nothing about the "Art of the Deal".

Trump is a grifter, not a businessman. He's good for licencing his brand, ripping off contractors/clients
This doesn't contradict my point about Trump using bazaar salesman tactics and this being a big ask with him coming down.

Not saying there aren't more effective sales techniques or that this is in somehow an honest pitch. Just that Mr. C's view that this is Trump being dishonest and 100% lying to us about what he wants isn't really identifying what's going on. There's a difference between an outright lie and staking out a maximum position before negotiating.

You have repeatedly admitted that Trump is a liar and a conman, but now you're trying to qualify and defend his lies. Why should we listen to you again?
Quote
Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32 PM
    Trump is a liar and a con man.
Quote
Quote from Mr.DeMartino on June 14, 2019 at 02:28:07 pm
Donald Trump is a lying sack of shit


Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #159 on: January 17, 2019, 12:30:38 pm »
You have repeatedly admitted that Trump is a liar and a conman, but now you're trying to qualify and defend his lies. Why should we listen to you again?
Name a politician who isn't a liar and a conman. Ike? Carter? Obama was relatively honest by politician standards but even he had his fair share. Might as well be like "You've repeatedly said John Cena uses steroids, but now you're trying to qualify and defend him." Some things just come with the trade.

I defended Obama during the Benghazi!!!!! nonsense. I defended Clinton on the EMAILS!!!!!!!! I defend George Soros. I have praised Elena Kagan AND Antonin Scalia. I also defend Korea, Muslims, Jews, white people, and so on.

Why? Because I really don't care for people who freak out over things. People are carrying on about Trump like he's Hitler incarnate or an utter madman. They don't even bother to evaluate how valid their criticisms of him are. They just see "anti-Trump" and agree with it because it's anti-Trump.

Some of us aren't all wrapped up in this "THE SKY IS FALLING AND THE OTHER SIDE IS PURE EVIL!!!!!!" nonsense.