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Re: Students Defend Music Teacher Arrested For Classroom Fight
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2018, 10:55:34 am »
Please show me where i have admitted to not being a teacher?

You said you were a professor  at a university with 5 months off per year. Changing your story again?

Thats very different to having to control classes of rebellious teenagers.


Quote
To compare the situation of a man who is being assaulted and feels the need to fight back

a) The man was not being assaulted.
b) An adult teacher punching a child in the head should never happen.


So lets summarize your position:

"Application of the harmless cane to an unruly child by a dispassionate third party after parental consent has been given should be banned, but a teacher repeatedly punching a child in the head in a fit of rage is quite ok".


You are clueless.


2 things: 1 i said i work at a university, i have never once referred to myself as a professor.

2 What do you think i do at my university? Sweep the floor?  I teach English.  Seriously,how can you not make the mental leap?  Do you not consider people who work at universities teachers?

So once again I AM A TEACHER.


*Edited for language
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 07:42:30 am by kyndo »


Re: Students Defend Music Teacher Arrested For Classroom Fight
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2018, 11:03:31 am »
Can someone explain what a teacher is expected to do in this situation?  Or what are teachers taught to do in this situation?
1. Do something and risk getting fired/sued
2. Teach to the few students who listen. Ignore the others.
3. Add Jim Beam to morning coffee.

Public schools are such a disaster these days, that I'd seriously consider sending my kids to some hardcore religious school over a public school because it seems they get exposed to less fundamentalist dogma at the religious school and at least are able to instill a modicum of discipline in their students.


Re: Students Defend Music Teacher Arrested For Classroom Fight
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2018, 11:35:17 am »
Can someone explain what a teacher is expected to do in this situation?  Or what are teachers taught to do in this situation?

Depends on the country, school, and community location of that school.

Generally speaking, teachers are taught to defuse the situation by staying calm, and to give volatile students the opportunity to calm down before speaking to them in private about their behavior. When student behavior escalates to the point of aggression, it's usually out of frustration and a victim mindset, and they aren't going to be thinking rationally. But speaking calmly to them and giving them the option to cool down somewhere until you can speak to them about what triggered their behavior (possibly with principal or parents also present, depends on how severe the outburst was) can often keep control of the classroom in the teacher's hands. If the student is already in a fight or flight type of defense response, refuses to leave the classroom, and can't be talked down, many schools have a system in place in which the teacher can call in people to forcibly remove the student from the classroom. This school might have that protocol in place as the teacher is seen retrieving his phone to either text or make a call, but I haven't seen any information regarding that so far.

Once a student reaches this stage of behavior and has to be forcibly removed from a classroom, though, they shouldn't be permitted to continue going to class unless they are put on a probationary status in which counseling, parental involvement and compliance with the process, and other rehabilitative/corrective procedures have been instituted (which is not for the teacher to worry about at this point). If necessary, CPS should also be contacted and made involved. In many parts of the U.S., students with a history of violence against other students or were violent with any teachers are removed from the school and placed in an alternative school where they face a much tougher system of discipline and rehabilitative measures. This is not the parents' decision, either, once it gets to this point. It's usually mandated by a legal board or judge because the student is considered too out-of-control to learn in a normal environment and presents too much of a risk to him/herself and others.

The teacher in question here tried to follow procedure, like Aristocrat has pointed out, but he lost his cool. WHY he lost his cool is what's really up for debate. Maybe the procedure was too ambiguous, and the only thing they tell teachers to do is to calm students down, but don't provide any training or guidelines for how to do that OR to know what to do with students that aren't willing to calm down. Maybe the system has continually failed to deal with aggressive students in a manner where they do not dominate the schools, thereby making teachers feel unsafe and unable to adequately address aggression once displayed. The student was already geared up for a fight. He came into the classroom with the victim mindset already in place, possibly as a result of his previous interactions with this teacher, but also most probably because of other situations outside of the teacher's control. Either way, he baited the teacher, and was successful. He might have gotten more than he bargained for, but the student still won in this case.

The question is, is that the teacher's fault, or the system's?

And obviously, the parents bear the entire weight of responsibility for their child's behavior to begin with, so they should be an intrinsic part of the system. If they refuse to take responsibility, then that's when other organizations with legal authority over parents need to be brought into the equation (including law enforcement and CPS).
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 05:31:48 pm by Chinguetti »


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Re: Students Defend Music Teacher Arrested For Classroom Fight
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2018, 11:53:54 am »
True fault lies with the system itself, which is far too ambiguous. Ultimately, teachers need more authority, with a clear and strict protocol of what to do in said situation.

Amen!  If CP is off the table fine!  But we need to offer judicial style punishments that get kids to say to themselves, THIS REALLY SUCKS AND I DON'T WANT TO BE BACK HERE DOING THIS AGAIN.  It can be anything from coming into school early to arrange desk, helping the janitor clean the school, helping the lunch room wash trays, anything.  If we punish adults with jail time, community service, and high ticket fines THEN educators need to make an age appropriate system where the students learn that this is a punishment, this is not meant to be fun, and we need to STOP being a repeat offender.   

Do I hit and yell at my students?  Nope!  Do I have them put there arms in the air? NOPE! THE PRINCIPALS AND VPS HAVE TOLD US TO TAKE THAT OFF THE TABLE.  So all we have left is to ask students to write ABCs (if they are grades 3/4 elementary) and long sentences (grades 5/6) OVER AND OVER AND OVER FOR 40 MINS and all we get from these students are "Thank you mother may I have another"  >:( >:( >:( >:(  This is suppose to be a punishment but it gets treated like a fun activity.   >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(


  • debbiem89
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Re: Students Defend Music Teacher Arrested For Classroom Fight
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2018, 07:59:06 am »
People are obsessed with CP. As if that's the entire answer and it's not. The world is very different to the one in which CP was enforced.

It's never ok to hit a student...but MAN i feel for this guy. I think anyone who's taught teenagers has experienced being on the absolute brink of losing it.

I used to get so high and mighty reading this stuff....before I actually started teaching. Now I can truly feel how close any teacher can get.

Just last week I had to leave my classroom...just for a minute to gather myself. Clearly freaked the kids out there wasn't a peep when I got back and didn't tell them where I'd gone.

One of my schools does a community service thing as someone mentioned above...coming in early and cleaning, scraping plates at lunch time that kind of thing.


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Re: Students Defend Music Teacher Arrested For Classroom Fight
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2018, 12:54:40 pm »
People are obsessed with CP. As if that's the entire answer and it's not.

Its not the entire answer,  its part of the answer.

Quote
The world is very different to the one in which CP was enforced.

Actually there are plenty of places still enforcing CP so better use the present tense.


The world hasn't changed, at all. Some humans still need a strong deterrent to prevent them from harming others, and they still need discipline. Society craves for security and justice, so does every classroom.

Civilizations still need to uphold law and order, crime still needs to be punished, and the majority of good people still need to be protected from the depredations of the unwell minority.


The problem is that sometime during the 60's onward the liberals took over the fort and they were clueless and arrogant enough to think they knew better than millenia of people before them.
Catch my drift?


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Re: Students Defend Music Teacher Arrested For Classroom Fight
« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2018, 10:03:59 am »
People are obsessed with CP. As if that's the entire answer and it's not.

Its not the entire answer,  its part of the answer.

Quote
The world is very different to the one in which CP was enforced.

Actually there are plenty of places still enforcing CP so better use the present tense.


The world hasn't changed, at all. Some humans still need a strong deterrent to prevent them from harming others, and they still need discipline. Society craves for security and justice, so does every classroom.

Civilizations still need to uphold law and order, crime still needs to be punished, and the majority of good people still need to be protected from the depredations of the unwell minority.


The problem is that sometime during the 60's onward the liberals took over the fort and they were clueless and arrogant enough to think they knew better than millenia of people before them.
I guess you got an A+ in Simplism and one in Head in the Sand as well.

BTW, the world has changed.


Re: Students Defend Music Teacher Arrested For Classroom Fight
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2018, 10:27:20 am »
I guess you got an A+ in Simplism and one in Head in the Sand as well.

BTW, the world has changed.
You know for someone who hates so much on Trump, you and him have a lot in common- a level of communication on par with a 6th grader, using personal insults as a form of debate (and one you go for from the getgo), and making argumentative points about comple subjects in 210 characters or less.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 12:55:07 pm by Mr.DeMartino »


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Re: Students Defend Music Teacher Arrested For Classroom Fight
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2018, 12:39:46 pm »
BTW, the world has changed.

Uhh.. if you make a claim, you're supposed to actually back it up with an argument.

Although I do of course realize you might not be able to do so, having been "raised" without any discipline.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 02:31:32 pm by kyndo »
Catch my drift?


Re: Students Defend Music Teacher Arrested For Classroom Fight
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2018, 12:46:03 pm »
BTW, the world has changed.

Uhh.. if you make a claim, you're supposed to actually back it up with an argument, dimbulb.

Although I do of course realize you have low mental acuity, having been "raised" without any discipline.

Does anyone have any real data proving that CP is effective (and I don't mean nonsensical "back in my day..." anecdotes).

The only reason I'm entering this shitshow is because I saw this somewhere recently: https://www.npr.org/2018/11/11/666646403/the-american-academy-of-pediatrics-on-spanking-children-dont-do-it-ever and I'm curious about what the pro-CP would say about it.


Re: Students Defend Music Teacher Arrested For Classroom Fight
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2018, 01:04:33 pm »
I think that the studies often focus on CP as a general form of discipline and they are probably right that it isn't effective in those cases.

However, I would suggest two cases where it MIGHT be effective- 1) In the case of something involving physical danger where you need some kind of automatic response. Like running into the road or some other kind of physical danger that requires an instinctual aversion. "If I run into the road, physical pain will be the consequence" sounds like a pretty good lesson to teach a kid. 2) Similar to this is some kind of extreme disrespect, what would constitute "fighting words" in the adult world so as to teach a kid that the likely consequence of such behavior would be a violent reaction from someone.

Also, I would suggest that while CP (and incidentally also torture) are not reliable and less effective or even ineffective in most cases, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are NEVER effective. Each person is different and responds differently to things. It stands to reason that at least some % of the population would be strongly motivated by physical threat.


Re: Students Defend Music Teacher Arrested For Classroom Fight
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2018, 01:24:59 pm »
BTW, the world has changed.

Uhh.. if you make a claim, you're supposed to actually back it up with an argument, dimbulb.

Although I do of course realize you have low mental acuity, having been "raised" without any discipline.

What was it you said in you (now deleted...) comment about resorting to name calling means you have lost the argument?  A tad hypocritical i think.  You have offered nothing but hearsay and opinion, but not a single fact.  You clearly prove you cannot defend your opinions, but feel if you shout loudest you are the winner.  You never responded to the fact that GCSE and A level results have risen year on year since CP was banned in the UK.  That is solid evidence that students have improved academically.

the UK banned CP in 1986



https://fullfact.org/education/gcse-results-and-reforms/

So, if the students continue to excell without the fear of physical punishment, why bring it back?

Students thrive in a free and safe environment, not one where the fear of pain is lurking in the background.

Time for an update of your software. 
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 01:29:04 pm by sligo »


Re: Students Defend Music Teacher Arrested For Classroom Fight
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2018, 01:35:26 pm »
BTW, the world has changed.

Uhh.. if you make a claim, you're supposed to actually back it up with an argument, dimbulb.

Although I do of course realize you have low mental acuity, having been "raised" without any discipline.

Does anyone have any real data proving that CP is effective (and I don't mean nonsensical "back in my day..." anecdotes).

The only reason I'm entering this shitshow is because I saw this somewhere recently: https://www.npr.org/2018/11/11/666646403/the-american-academy-of-pediatrics-on-spanking-children-dont-do-it-ever and I'm curious about what the pro-CP would say about it.

It'd be pretty easy to do a study of the number and severity of disciplinary offences in a school before and after CP was abolished, which wouldn't be anecdotal. However, this wouldn't prove that CP was the main reason or any reason behind the change (if there was one) 


Re: Students Defend Music Teacher Arrested For Classroom Fight
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2018, 01:46:01 pm »
So, if the students continue to excell without the fear of physical punishment, why bring it back?

Students thrive in a free and safe environment, not one where the fear of pain is lurking in the background.

Time for an update of your software.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't your link suggest that grade inflation was a potentially significant factor? Also, there are any number of factors that could contribute to a rise in grades, independent of CP.

By that logic we could attribute the dramatic rise in teen suicide, depression, and cutting behavior to (lack of) corporal punishment. That of course, would be a tenuous claim as it ignores a host of other factors.

Essentially, you'd have to have some sort of control group that controlled for things like parent's education level, income level, neighborhood, social media use, student IQ, and have them in the same school (without them somehow being known as 'the spanking class') to have the beginnings of any kind of reasonable study to draw conclusions from.


Re: Students Defend Music Teacher Arrested For Classroom Fight
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2018, 02:01:03 pm »
So, if the students continue to excell without the fear of physical punishment, why bring it back?

Students thrive in a free and safe environment, not one where the fear of pain is lurking in the background.

Time for an update of your software.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't your link suggest that grade inflation was a potentially significant factor? Also, there are any number of factors that could contribute to a rise in grades, independent of CP.

By that logic we could attribute the dramatic rise in teen suicide, depression, and cutting behavior to (lack of) corporal punishment. That of course, would be a tenuous claim as it ignores a host of other factors.

Essentially, you'd have to have some sort of control group that controlled for things like parent's education level, income level, neighborhood, social media use, student IQ, and have them in the same school (without them somehow being known as 'the spanking class') to have the beginnings of any kind of reasonable study to draw conclusions from.

Grade inflation/'course work' done by teachers is a massive elephant in the room. Also the ones receiving the CP are the ones likely leaving school with no qualifications. An interesting statistic would be the number of physical assaults on teachers since CP was abolished.


  • debbiem89
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Re: Students Defend Music Teacher Arrested For Classroom Fight
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2018, 02:04:59 pm »
People are obsessed with CP. As if that's the entire answer and it's not.

Its not the entire answer,  its part of the answer.

Quote
The world is very different to the one in which CP was enforced.

Actually there are plenty of places still enforcing CP so better use the present tense.


The world hasn't changed, at all. Some humans still need a strong deterrent to prevent them from harming others, and they still need discipline. Society craves for security and justice, so does every classroom.

Civilizations still need to uphold law and order, crime still needs to be punished, and the majority of good people still need to be protected from the depredations of the unwell minority.


The problem is that sometime during the 60's onward the liberals took over the fort and they were clueless and arrogant enough to think they knew better than millenia of people before them.

Obviously I meant in the countries that we are talking about whether it should come back in. I mean I figured that was obvious.

You say it's only "part" of the answer yet you manage to bring it up no matter what the topic...

The world most certainly has changed and if you are actually trying to argue that it hasn't...that's absolutely laughable. Just because there is still crime and wrong doings doesn't mean the world hasn't changed.


You're talking about being punished for crimes now as well? What? You want  more countries to start dishing out lashes for commiting crimes etc? Honestly I think you've actually lost your mind. Just because a "millenia" of people do something before you doesn't make it right (hello slave trade).

CP is wrong on so many levels. You have NO IDEA what individual kids are going through at home...then you're gonna beat them in class as well? and how do you police it? A teacher in the school next to mind hospitalised a kid after beating him with a hockey stick. Once you give these teachers that level of power it becomes dangerous. Look at the police force...give them guns to uphold the law and too many of them shoot up innocent people and abuse their power.

Great way to make the learning experience a positive one. You're actually teaching kids that violence brings results and "justice".

Show us concrete evidence it works and is the most effective way to educate children.


Re: Students Defend Music Teacher Arrested For Classroom Fight
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2018, 02:15:25 pm »
So, if the students continue to excell without the fear of physical punishment, why bring it back?

Students thrive in a free and safe environment, not one where the fear of pain is lurking in the background.

Time for an update of your software.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't your link suggest that grade inflation was a potentially significant factor? Also, there are any number of factors that could contribute to a rise in grades, independent of CP.

By that logic we could attribute the dramatic rise in teen suicide, depression, and cutting behavior to (lack of) corporal punishment. That of course, would be a tenuous claim as it ignores a host of other factors.

Essentially, you'd have to have some sort of control group that controlled for things like parent's education level, income level, neighborhood, social media use, student IQ, and have them in the same school (without them somehow being known as 'the spanking class') to have the beginnings of any kind of reasonable study to draw conclusions from.

Quote
"Evidence suggests that improvement in exam grades is out of line with independent indicators of performance, suggesting grade inflation could be a significant factor."

Could be, just like, you could be a 40 stone retarded albino Mexican.  It is hinting at a possible explanation, byt does not identify it as THE cause.

The result do not correlate to "1" model of achievement.  So it COULD be an indication of 1 factor.  Or, maybe the assessment factors have no taken into account the way subjects are taught, and the resources used.  Maybe technology has allowed teachers to reach more students, and as such they have excelled.  the report cited was a general OECD report on all of the UK.  It was a scant look at several aspects of the UK, with shallow explanations of many of the findings.  What is did say regarding "Grade inflation" was that there may be evidence of  "teaching to tests" which is basically the Korean M.O.

Quote
Evidence
suggests  that  improvement  in  exam  grades  is  out  of  line  with  independent  indicators  of  performance, 
suggesting   grade   inflation   could   be   a   significant   factor.   Furthermore,   the   focus   on   test   scores   
incentivises  “teaching  to  tests”

http://www.oecd.org/social/labour/47319830.pdf#page=9

What is more, they have collated England and Scotland results together.  Scotland has an independent education system, that issues its own exams.  Just because they both belong to the UK doesn't mean they can be grouped together.  If all people grouped together are not being taught the same things to the same standards, any outcomes are flawed, and not worth mentioning.

Even if "teaching to tests" is an aspect of the increase in pass rates, the students still have to listen and learn what is being covered in class.


Re: Students Defend Music Teacher Arrested For Classroom Fight
« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2018, 02:32:17 pm »
The world most certainly has changed and if you are actually trying to argue that it hasn't...that's absolutely laughable. Just because there is still crime and wrong doings doesn't mean the world hasn't changed.
The human brain and its DNA is still as it was. It is that of a tribal species whose organization tends toward hierarchy and tribalism. Certainly we can overcome that, but we have to not forget nature.

Quote
You want  more countries to start dishing out lashes for commiting crimes etc? Honestly I think you've actually lost your mind. Just because a "millenia" of people do something before you doesn't make it right (hello slave trade).
Doesn't make it wrong either, nor that because something is newer, it must be better. It is something that should carefully be considered.

For example, it is certainly worth noting that the rather stiff penalties for narcotics use in East Asia provides a strong deterrent factor and may significantly contribute to a lack of street crime and all of the police state elements that come with it. Stern application in one area of the law may lead to more freedom in other areas.

Quote
Look at the police force...give them guns to uphold the law and too many of them shoot up innocent people and abuse their power.
That is media perception. The fact is that the odds of you being a victim in a bad police shooting are really quite low. Are there too many? Of course, but one has to weight the number of lives saved by police having guns vs. those that are lost to bad shootings.

Quote
You're actually teaching kids that violence brings results and "justice".
That violence brings results, both good and bad, is a fact of life. Lest we forget there are also people who pick on or bully someone who won't be deterred by words and then end up getting punched in the mouth by the person they were bullying. The bullying, for some reason that is beyond me, seems to cease after that. 

What you're failing to recognize is that there is a subset of the population that only responds to force, threat, and physical domination. It is why they will act up in a class run by a 5'3" woman (or man) who is not a disciplinarian and not step out of line once when they are in a class with a 6'4" guy who also is the linebackers coach. They will not be deterred unless they know that you can stop them (and really stop them, not just semi-reward them by booting them out of class).

Put it this way- Rich Franklin was a high school math teacher. He also at one point became the UFC middleweight champion. Do you think he had a lot of discipline problems in his class? Maybe with girls, but I bet there were a number of boys who would act out in other classes who would straighten up in his class.

Now that's not to say that this respect is 100% physical. One of my teachers was a 5'4" woman in her 50s who weighed 120 lbs. She was also a former Marine and there was that underlying edge of "Just try me" in her bearing. It matters, especially with adolescent boys. 

You don't have to be an ex-Marine or cage fighter. But when dealing with boys, you do have to have that edge of "just try me" and that means you do need to be able to back it up if push comes to shove.


Re: Students Defend Music Teacher Arrested For Classroom Fight
« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2018, 02:43:13 pm »
What is did say regarding "Grade inflation" was that there may be evidence of  "teaching to tests" which is basically the Korean M.O.
Seems like it's the M.O. of any country that is trying to mandate certain levels of grade performance in students and backing it up with legislation and incentivizing schools to achieve those marks "or else".

As far as the study, it is certainly the beginning of asking questions and as you said, it doesn't offer us much in the way of concrete answers, just some areas we could start to look at. Could CP be involved? Certainly. Is it? Well we'd need a different study. As you indicated there could be any number of causes.


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Re: Students Defend Music Teacher Arrested For Classroom Fight
« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2018, 02:48:26 pm »

Quote
Look at the police force...give them guns to uphold the law and too many of them shoot up innocent people and abuse their power.
That is media perception. The fact is that the odds of you being a victim in a bad police shooting are really quite low. Are there too many? Of course, but one has to weight the number of lives saved by police having guns vs. those that are lost to bad shootings.

Quote
What you're failing to recognize is that there is a subset of the population that only responds to force, threat, and physical domination. It is why they will act up in a class run by a 5'3" woman (or man) who is not a disciplinarian and not step out of line once when they are in a class with a 6'4" guy who also is the linebackers coach. They will not be deterred unless they know that you can stop them (and really stop them, not just semi-reward them by booting them out of class).

Put it this way- Rich Franklin was a high school math teacher. He also at one point became the UFC middleweight champion. Do you think he had a lot of discipline problems in his class? Maybe with girls, but I bet there were a number of boys who would act out in other classes who would straighten up in his class.

Now that's not to say that this respect is 100% physical. One of my teachers was a 5'4" woman in her 50s who weighed 120 lbs. She was also a former Marine and there was that underlying edge of "Just try me" in her bearing. It matters, especially with adolescent boys. 

You don't have to be an ex-Marine or cage fighter. But when dealing with boys, you do have to have that edge of "just try me" and that means you do need to be able to back it up if push comes to shove.

Sorry but I disagree. Some of my co teachers are tiny women and they RUN their classes. Like no one talks out of line and there's one in particular who taps her pencil and they all shut the f up and pay attention. Some of my male co teachers are absolutely useless, they don't get anywhere near the amount of respect.

If this big UFC guy was so great at controlling his classes then why did he lose it? Why was a kid acting up so badly that he ended up fighting him? Obviously he had discipline issues in his class and clearly size and physicality isn't everything in the classroom.

The bit I've highlighted above I think is exactly right...but for me that has NOTHING to do with CP.

Also I wasn't JUST talking about police shootings. Police abuse in general is pretty high in a lot of places. I worked for the police for a short time and I quit because I saw my fair share of shite. SO many officers abuse their power in many ways. No innocent lives should be lost to the police... you wouldn't be like "eh what's a few lives lost to those saved?" if one of those people was a member of your family.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 02:51:08 pm by debbiem89 »