Read 12567 times

Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #80 on: December 11, 2018, 06:29:08 am »
https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/brexit/2nd-eu-referendum

There is a lot of money being wagered on a second referendum.


  • SPQR
  • Super Waygook

    • 337

    • March 08, 2018, 07:04:54 pm
    • Canada
Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #81 on: December 11, 2018, 08:12:31 am »
Yeah. Probably being wagered by the same dullards that voted to leave.


Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #82 on: May 27, 2019, 08:49:17 am »
I'm not sure (apart from trump) if there is a more punchable face in world politics than nigel farage.   >:(  not just punching, but running over too.


Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #83 on: May 27, 2019, 10:04:02 am »

[/quote]
I'm not sure (apart from trump) if there is a more punchable face in world politics than nigel farage.   >:(  not just punching, but running over too.

I'd suggest Jess Phillips but that'd probably be breaking some hate speech laws.


Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #84 on: May 27, 2019, 11:57:08 am »
Remain parties: 40.4%
Hard Brexit parties: 34.9%
Conservatives/Labour: 23.2%

Does that seem that there could be a second people's vote on the horizon?


  • SPQR
  • Super Waygook

    • 337

    • March 08, 2018, 07:04:54 pm
    • Canada
Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #85 on: May 27, 2019, 01:06:47 pm »
Remain parties: 40.4%
Hard Brexit parties: 34.9%
Conservatives/Labour: 23.2%

Does that seem that there could be a second people's vote on the horizon?

Source?


Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #86 on: May 27, 2019, 01:11:08 pm »
Why people would take something that requires generations and blood to gain and ensure (national sovereignty) and trade it all away for the cheap thrills of slightly reduced consumer goods prices and slightly easier travel when on vacation is beyond me.  Sure it might be fine for 20-40 years, but if something goes wrong, it will go REALLY wrong and it will be incredibly hard to get back what was given up.


  • kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 5533

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #87 on: May 27, 2019, 01:27:49 pm »
Why people would take something that requires generations and blood to gain and ensure (national sovereignty) and trade it all away for the cheap thrills of slightly reduced consumer goods prices and slightly easier travel when on vacation is beyond me.  Sure it might be fine for 20-40 years, but if something goes wrong, it will go REALLY wrong and it will be incredibly hard to get back what was given up.
Your 13 colonies did exactly that when they unified. Heck, they even had similar promises of autonomy under the new government.
There were advantages to being a unified whole rather than being a multitude of small, independent entities and the same it true today.
The EU is better equipped to deal with Chinese economic aggression, or Russian ones, or even American ones. Reshuffling political systems is a pretty small price to pay, honestly.

Human history has been a long, slow journey from tiny roving family units, to tribes, to city-states, to nations, to international societies.
Maybe there *will* one day be global government like Star Trek's "united Earth".

Not saying that I'm necessarily a huge fan of this, but it does seem to be the path that our collective political history is following


Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #88 on: May 27, 2019, 02:04:24 pm »
The 13 colonies had no established currency and could have faced invasion and conquest by the French or the British. They also shared a common language (for the most part) and common religion (for the most part). Of course there were millions of indigenous and enslaved people who were not a part of that, but if you're asking why the colonists formed a Union, there were factors unique to the States that do not apply to Europe.

The difference in "Chinese economic aggression" or "Russian aggression" from an EU-Europe vs. a non-EU one is likely negligible. The geopolitical situation would likely still be very similar to the one we have now. The U.S. nuclear deterrent would still prevent Russians swarming into Poland with or without the EU.

Add to that, the lack of recognition for minority peoples in the EU. And by that I mean Scottish, Welsh, Cornish, Manx, Breton, Catalan, Frisian, Basque, and other cultures, which will likely be extinct or on the verge 2100 thanks to the homogeneity that will be brought. Europe's strength was in its diversity of peoples and traditions and that will be placed under more and more stress.

And again, people assume that the EU will continue to act benevolently and will always be so. Given the structure of its government, at best it could continue as an ineffective but relatively benign bloatocracy.  At worst we get something that parallels the Soviet system with a few more smiles. Small nations all over the globe are doing fine, thriving in many cases, and we aren't calling them racists and xenophobes for not being enveloped by their closest large neighbor. "Those damn Kuwaitis, why don't they realize that their time is up and just surrender their sovereignty to the Saudis!" No one would say that is a good idea. No one would say that Kuwait's prosperity depends on such a scheme. And that Kuwaiti independence was shown to be a very precious thing and something that should be cherished. Why give it up?


  • kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 5533

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #89 on: May 27, 2019, 04:53:39 pm »
The 13 colonies had no established currency and could have faced invasion and conquest by the French or the British. They also shared a common language (for the most part) and common religion (for the most part). Of course there were millions of indigenous and enslaved people who were not a part of that, but if you're asking why the colonists formed a Union, there were factors unique to the States that do not apply to Europe.
My point wasn't that the colonists formed a union because they were facing the same pressures, but because the formation of a union creates a unified front that can more effectively resist many different kinds of external pressures. The EU had many reasons for its formation, but this was certainly one of them.

The difference in "Chinese economic aggression" or "Russian aggression" from an EU-Europe vs. a non-EU one is likely negligible. The geopolitical situation would likely still be very similar to the one we have now. The U.S. nuclear deterrent would still prevent Russians swarming into Poland with or without the EU.
        Absolutely not. China has been accused of unfair trade practices with African economies. They are able to do this because those economies are developing, and because they are isolated from one another. Trade blocs like NAFTA, ASEAN, and the EU form because they are able to leverage their much larger markets, protecting them from economic predators. Keep in mind that I specified economic, not military protection. I agree that it's NATO that keeps (kept?) Russia out, not the EU. That's not what the EU is for.

Your other points are valid but didn't really relate to my point so I'll let somebody else attack them.  :smiley:


  • SPQR
  • Super Waygook

    • 337

    • March 08, 2018, 07:04:54 pm
    • Canada
Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #90 on: May 27, 2019, 06:03:14 pm »
The EU is the biggest voluntary, progressive and positive social
construction ever undertaken by the human race.  Instead of
self interested, parochial and primitive armed camps, the EU
transcends nationalistic tribalism and replaces it with an
extremely advanced cohesion never before seen on the  planet.

Moreover, it brings together over half a billion people to form
the second biggest economic block in the world.
https://www.thebalance.com/world-s-largest-economy-3306044
And going further, it not only has an amazing economy, but
also exhibits the most enlightened human rights and environmental
policies on earth.

It is, indeed, something the human race can finally be proud of.


  • NorthStar
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1113

    • July 05, 2017, 10:54:06 am
    • Mouseville
Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #91 on: May 27, 2019, 06:26:40 pm »
Why people would take something that requires generations and blood to gain and ensure (national sovereignty) and trade it all away for the cheap thrills of slightly reduced consumer goods prices and slightly easier travel when on vacation is beyond me.  Sure it might be fine for 20-40 years, but if something goes wrong, it will go REALLY wrong and it will be incredibly hard to get back what was given up.

I have to agree with the Doc on that...(and from now on, I'll refrain from the harshness on his defense of S.K.)


Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #92 on: May 27, 2019, 08:46:40 pm »

My point wasn't that the colonists formed a union because they were facing the same pressures, but because the formation of a union creates a unified front that can more effectively resist many different kinds of external pressures. The EU had many reasons for its formation, but this was certainly one of them.

        Absolutely not. China has been accused of unfair trade practices with African economies. They are able to do this because those economies are developing, and because they are isolated from one another. Trade blocs like NAFTA, ASEAN, and the EU form because they are able to leverage their much larger markets, protecting them from economic predators. Keep in mind that I specified economic, not military protection. I agree that it's NATO that keeps (kept?) Russia out, not the EU. That's not what the EU is for.

Your other points are valid but didn't really relate to my point so I'll let somebody else attack them.  :smiley:

I think an EU-lite could resolve many of these issues without the sovereignty issues, and in a better structured sense. I think the EU, scaled back in powers and restructured could accomplish many of the things it sets out to do, as we see with the case of non-EU members. Of course there is the free-rider problem, but that is something that could be worked out.

I also think the UK is perhaps uniquely ill-suited to be a full member state given its different legal structure and constituent states and history as a much more global, maritime country.


Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #93 on: May 27, 2019, 08:49:08 pm »
Why people would take something that requires generations and blood to gain and ensure (national sovereignty) and trade it all away for the cheap thrills of slightly reduced consumer goods prices and slightly easier travel when on vacation is beyond me.  Sure it might be fine for 20-40 years, but if something goes wrong, it will go REALLY wrong and it will be incredibly hard to get back what was given up.

I have to agree with the Doc on that...(and from now on, I'll refrain from the harshness on his defense of S.K.)

Be as harsh as ever! Free speech is a beautiful thing.


  • Cyanea
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1242

    • September 04, 2016, 01:48:24 pm
    • Las Vegas
Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #94 on: May 27, 2019, 11:01:05 pm »
The EU is the biggest voluntary

Voluntary?  :huh:

 You sign up for one thing, then they suck you in and suddenly you're trapped into something else and you can never leave because they've taken over your money, law courts and banks.

Quote
progressive and positive social construction ever undertaken by the human race. 

You're hilarious. really. I laughed.

Quote
an extremely advanced cohesion never before seen on the  planet.

You must be out of your mind. Europe continues to be the most divided and fractured political entity on earth. They can't even get the most basic things done because they can't agree on anything.

Quote
And going further, it not only has an amazing economy,

is that why unemployment rates are through the sky in most of the EU?

Quote
but
also exhibits the most enlightened human rights and environmental
policies on earth.

Yes, EU applies toxins and intensive agriculture evenly to all member states and destroys all wildlife equally across Europe.

Quote
It is, indeed, something the human race can finally be proud of.


hahaha  :cry: :laugh: :laugh:   Its always kinda funny to see someone so ignorant of reality and brainwashed. Were you in the hitler youth as well?
Catch my drift?


  • SanderB
  • Super Waygook

    • 437

    • June 02, 2018, 06:25:54 pm
    • Burning Oil Be Best
Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #95 on: May 28, 2019, 02:38:45 am »
I think that you, Cyanea, are the one who has been brainwashed into believing Brexit would be beneficial to the UK. Also, there is no unemployment in Holland, in fact 900.000 vacancies available to anyone willing to come and work here as a European citizen, and many do take this opportunity. The unemployed are so by their own personal choice, and we are desperate for any able-bodied people to help us fill these vacancies.

I know it is far more comfortable to wallow in despair and discontent about the horrors the EU has inflicted upon the sovereignty of member states and how much money flows out of the country towards the Southern poorer member states but if you have any knowledge of the EU economy it is imperative to support those countries because they have sold off all their debt into dangerous derivatives and the banks are shorting them, expecting a huge crisis soon. The longer we can print money and abstain from remedying this sword of Damocles, the better for all of us. Brexit on its own could cause England to suffer great economic recession inflicting even more unrest to the Southern EU states.

In any case, I've heard that the price of flowers has already risen by 2 pounds and Brexit hasn't even happened yet.

In this, Cyanea, your facts do not stack up. Brexit is a terrible route to self-destruction and a royal shafting to any young Brit graduating out of uni for years to come. This hapless 'we'll manage, as we have always withstood many difficult times in the past' is, to my mind, the easiest coping mechanism at full play here: denial of imminent danger to the status quo. It is incredibly saddening that the most vulnerable in British society are the most feverishly believing in this false Brexit mantra, thinking that if all the Poles have left, they, as native Brits, would be given higher benefits. This lie and pipedream is the one thing that upsets me the most. Taking advantage of the gullible minds of the uninformed lower classes and scandalously portraying Brexit and the EU in a negative light through fake news like Boris has done is an affront to anything a politician should hold dearly. The fact that you happily gobble up this misinformation is worrying but perhaps not entirely unexpected knowing your preconceived notions and having read your other posts.

Farage for PM! :azn:
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 02:42:54 am by SanderB »
Fiat voluntas tua- What you want is allowed


Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #96 on: May 28, 2019, 07:18:57 am »
hahaha  :cry: :laugh: :laugh:   Its always kinda funny to see someone so ignorant of reality and brainwashed. Were you in the hitler youth as well?

really?  it's funny to see someone who is so delicate that they seem to be able to dish it out, but run away complaining when someone points out their nonsense.  sad, really. 

fact is, the UK has been in the EU for 46-odd years.  for most of us, we only know about being part of the EU, and for that main reason there is no problem with it.  would the UK have been any better not being in the EU?  who knows.  thing is, we joined and the majority of Brits feel an affinity with Europe.  but the UK has always wriggled around and complained about its 'sovereignty' and 'national identity' and nonsense like that, when in reality the numerous global memberships and global treaties etc mean that no country truly has sovereignty.  for example, like the ridiculous trade war that trump has started with China shows how everyone is affected by the actions of other countries.  there is no 'sovereignty'.  the EU works, it's just now that globally, stupid small-minded bigoted people seem to have woken from their slumber thinking that now they should have a say in what goes on without checking the facts or just plain ignoring them.   

six months after the Brexit vote, I remember my mum telling me she was in the post office and overheard some old ladies talking.  one mentioned, 'it'll be okay because there is that 350 million that will go to the NHS now'.   :rolleyes:  people who will never see Brexit fukced it up for the ones who will experience it.  my sister-in-law's parents both voted to leave, they're in their seventies.  my sister-in-law was so angry at them she couldn't talk to them for a few months.  my hope is, that as the majority remain parties from yesterday's election out number the brexit parties, mean that if there is a general election that majority feeling is to remain and the candidates who canvass on that will win, therefore giving us a second people's vote. 
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 07:21:03 am by Ronnie Omelettes »


  • oglop
  • The Legend

    • 3191

    • August 25, 2011, 07:24:54 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #97 on: May 28, 2019, 07:24:44 am »
asking my dad why he voted brexit: "damn immigrants. there's too many of them"

a few days later: "so, when are you and your korean wife moving to england?"



Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #98 on: May 28, 2019, 07:53:21 am »
The longer we can print money and abstain from remedying this sword of Damocles, the better for all of us.
If your solution is to print money, you have no solution.

Quote
In any case, I've heard that the price of flowers has already risen by 2 pounds and Brexit hasn't even happened yet.
Imagine the mindset of being willing to forsake your national sovereignty to save a few bucks on flowers....

Quote
Brexit is a terrible route to self-destruction and a royal shafting to any young Brit graduating out of uni for years to come
Offers printing money as a solution, cites saving 2 pounds on flowers as a reason to justify it.

And you say the Brexitiers are the ones engaging in self-destruction and shafting the young  :huh:


Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #99 on: May 28, 2019, 08:16:22 am »
thing is, we joined and the majority of Brits feel an affinity with Europe.  but the UK has always wriggled around and complained about its 'sovereignty' and 'national identity' and nonsense like that
I don't think those concepts are quite the nonsense you say they are. Countries that have seen attempts to have such "nonsense" stripped from them, almost always by force, tend not to see them as "nonsense".

Quote
when in reality the numerous global memberships and global treaties etc mean that no country truly has sovereignty
That's not true. People elect leaders to enter such agreements or perhaps to withdraw from them. We have seen numerous popular elected governments shift directions radically. Also, while countries do agree to limitations via treaty, the decision to freely engage in those limitations, and to dictate the extent of them, rather than having them placed on them arbitrarily or through coercion, is an act of sovereignty in and of itself.

Quote
for example, like the ridiculous trade war that trump has started with China
Significant intellectual property theft and holding China accountable. The alternative is that China sees weakness and assumes it can do whatever it wants. You've heard of "too big to fail" well, at that point China will be "too big to question". In other words, this is a Hitler and Czechoslovakia moment. You either stand up and confront them or you try and smooth everything out and we'll pay the price down the line.

Quote
it's just now that globally, stupid small-minded bigoted people seem to have woken from their slumber thinking that now they should have a say in what goes on without checking the facts or just plain ignoring them
Really? Tens of millions of people who didn't vote before suddenly started voting, despite voter turnout rates being the same? How do you explain that? Are you really that deluded that you think millions sprung up out of nowhere to vote for populists? Do you know who was Trump's margin of victory? Hundreds of thousands of people in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, who had voted union Democrat for years and voted for Obama and shifted to Trump after the global financial crisis and the uneven recovery.

Quote
people who will never see Brexit fukced it up for the ones who will experience it.  my sister-in-law's parents both voted to leave, they're in their seventies.  my sister-in-law was so angry at them she couldn't talk to them for a few months

Let's see, the most impulsive, most short-term thinking, most hormone-driven demographic, most coddled, which has the lowest rates of business ownership, savings, leadership and managerial experience, and least amount of capital at stake, the young, thinks Brexit is a bad idea.

Well, I'm convinced.