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  • waygo0k
  • The Legend

    • 4106

    • September 27, 2011, 11:51:01 am
    • Chungnam
Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #320 on: December 18, 2019, 07:45:57 am »

You're right about the second part anyway, not sure I get the first.

"immigrants cause NHS wastage and it's a big problem"

Context: The Kings Fund estimates that health tourism costs the UK between “£60 million and £80 million per year. This compares to the annual NHS budget of £113 billion.”

So much for “health tourism” – it costs less than a tenth of one per cent of the total NHS budget. What about the general cost to the NHS of all migrants living in the UK?




https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/high-immigration-nhs-crisis

"Because the NHS is free at the point of use...wastage is a big problem"

Context: The NHS is the most efficient public health service in the world.


« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 07:50:10 am by waygo0k »


Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #321 on: December 18, 2019, 11:04:28 am »


Looks great until you look at the final criteria "Healthy Lives" and see they have a rather dismal ranking, which in turn calls into question the entire system. "Healthy Lives" should be the most important criteria, no? If the system is achieving high rankings in all those other criteria but getting a dismal outcome in "Healthy Lives", then something is deeply wrong and in fact, there is some sort of inefficiency.

Poor outcomes for "Healthy Lives" would suggest that while the NHS might be more efficient at the point of access, the quality of care is leading to poorer health treatment, relatively, which in turn would mean more frequent use of the NHS.

Something doesn't add up here...


  • zola
  • The Legend

    • 2917

    • September 30, 2012, 06:56:11 am
    • Korea
Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #322 on: December 18, 2019, 11:11:34 am »
Isn't "Healthy Lives" about individual health choices like diet, exercise, smoking, alcohol consumption etc?

Kpip! - Martin 2018


  • oglop
  • The Legend

    • 2982

    • August 25, 2011, 07:24:54 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #323 on: December 18, 2019, 11:19:13 am »
Isn't "Healthy Lives" about individual health choices like diet, exercise, smoking, alcohol consumption etc?


that's what i thought too. makes sense as the usa is last


  • waygo0k
  • The Legend

    • 4106

    • September 27, 2011, 11:51:01 am
    • Chungnam
Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #324 on: December 18, 2019, 11:22:20 am »
As usual DM...everyone says "A",  you reply with "squirrel!"

NHS ranking on:

Effective care - number 1
Safe care - number 1
Coordinated care - number 1
Patient centred care - number 1

Despite people in the UK having and living unhealthy lives...they have free "at the point of use" access to the number 1 healthcare system in the world. The UK healthcare system doesn't lead to unhealthy lives.


  • McTinkle
  • Explorer

    • 7

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:48 pm
    • Busan, South Korea
Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #325 on: December 18, 2019, 12:08:21 pm »

Looks great until you look at the final criteria "Healthy Lives" and see they have a rather dismal ranking, which in turn calls into question the entire system. "Healthy Lives" should be the most important criteria, no? If the system is achieving high rankings in all those other criteria but getting a dismal outcome in "Healthy Lives", then something is deeply wrong and in fact, there is some sort of inefficiency.

Poor outcomes for "Healthy Lives" would suggest that while the NHS might be more efficient at the point of access, the quality of care is leading to poorer health treatment, relatively, which in turn would mean more frequent use of the NHS.

Something doesn't add up here...

That's quite some confirmation bias going on there champ. All the numbers don't agree with you so the one that does must be the most important. I'm thinking looking at the other countries results that it's a measure of healthy lifestyle. The NHS doesn't control the culture, how people work, how much money they make, what they eat and what they have access to eat. All factors that lead to a healthy lifestyle.

It could be that the NHS is so good at keeping people alive despite their unhealthy lives that there are more of them alive today. Without the raw data we cant read much further into it.

The biggest issue is the government deliberately underfunding it so they can claim its "unfit for purpose" and then sell it off to all their rich friends.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 12:59:02 pm by McTinkle »


Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #326 on: December 18, 2019, 02:36:26 pm »
As usual DM...everyone says "A",  you reply with "squirrel!"

NHS ranking on:

Effective care - number 1
Safe care - number 1
Coordinated care - number 1
Patient centred care - number 1

Despite people in the UK having and living unhealthy lives...they have free "at the point of use" access to the number 1 healthcare system in the world. The UK healthcare system doesn't lead to unhealthy lives.

Of course it is, Martin is just being his usual contrary self.  You say something like this and he just has to oppose it to make himself feel better. 


Looks great until you look at the final criteria "Healthy Lives" and see they have a rather dismal ranking, which in turn calls into question the entire system. "Healthy Lives" should be the most important criteria, no? If the system is achieving high rankings in all those other criteria but getting a dismal outcome in "Healthy Lives", then something is deeply wrong and in fact, there is some sort of inefficiency.

Poor outcomes for "Healthy Lives" would suggest that while the NHS might be more efficient at the point of access, the quality of care is leading to poorer health treatment, relatively, which in turn would mean more frequent use of the NHS.

Something doesn't add up here...

That's quite some confirmation bias going on there champ. All the numbers don't agree with you so the one that does must be the most important. I'm thinking looking at the other countries results that it's a measure of healthy lifestyle. The NHS doesn't control the culture, how people work, how much money they make, what they eat and what they have access to eat. All factors that lead to a healthy lifestyle.

It could be that the NHS is so good at keeping people alive despite their unhealthy lives that there are more of them alive today. Without the raw data we cant read much further into it.

The biggest issue is the government deliberately underfunding it so they can claim its "unfit for purpose" and then sell it off to all their rich friends.

Booyah!! Confirmation bias alert.  Wait, doesn't Martin usually wrongly accuse others of confirmation bias?  Of course, he's going to pick the one bit that might prove his point, whereas the rest of the info counters his contrary point of view.  Love it.   :-*


  • Cohort 2019
  • Super Waygook

    • 324

    • August 17, 2019, 08:09:23 pm
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    more
Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #327 on: December 18, 2019, 10:57:50 pm »
I'm finding it hard to believe that the NHS is better than the Swiss healthcare system.

Quote
Switzerland vs. Britain: Meaning of a Market
How does the cost-effectiveness of Britain's "socialized medicine" stack up against the competitive but heavily regulated private system of Switzerland?

Our pick: Switzerland, 3-2

AARON: Switzerland. It has better quality, and perhaps access, but those come at a higher cost. I’m willing to make that trade-off.

CRAIG: Britain. Switzerland’s system — privately funded with private insurers — is often held up as a bastion of competition. But it is not necessarily more of a market than Britain; it just hides the heavy hand of government a bit more. In reality, the insurance and provider market is heavily regulated.

The U.K. system is almost entirely publicly funded, but it has done a lot to try to increase the competition between facilities, which has increased the quality of service.

AUSTIN: Britain. It systematically incorporates cost effectiveness into coverage decisions.

ASHISH: Switzerland. These are two countries with high-performing health systems, but Switzerland has better access and quality, albeit at somewhat higher costs.

UWE: Switzerland. Switzerland has better facilities and speed of access to care.

btw:
Remain 114 (69.9%)
Leave       49 (30.1%)
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 03:00:52 am by Cohort 2019 »
incumbo studiis


  • waygo0k
  • The Legend

    • 4106

    • September 27, 2011, 11:51:01 am
    • Chungnam
Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #328 on: December 19, 2019, 06:04:19 am »
Those ads people giving personal opinions...versus research data from the commonwealth fund.

It’s ok to find it hard to believe that the UK has a better healthcare system than Switzerland...but it doesn’t change that fact.


  • stoat
  • Expert Waygook

    • 654

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #329 on: December 19, 2019, 08:02:03 am »
Those ads people giving personal opinions...versus research data from the commonwealth fund.

It’s ok to find it hard to believe that the UK has a better healthcare system than Switzerland...but it doesn’t change that fact.

Wow, so as far as health is concerned, the tories have done a pretty good job over the last 10 years.


  • waygo0k
  • The Legend

    • 4106

    • September 27, 2011, 11:51:01 am
    • Chungnam
Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #330 on: December 20, 2019, 10:43:50 am »

Wow, so as far as health is concerned, the tories have done a pretty good job over the last 10 years.

Figures from 2013...3 years into Tory rule and before that over a decade of labour rule and policies.

AFAIK we don't have updated results yet...maybe the NHS will still be no.1 in spite of a decade of Tory cuts and sabotage in the next round of figures.


  • Cohort 2019
  • Super Waygook

    • 324

    • August 17, 2019, 08:09:23 pm
    • 90°S.- 0'E
    more
Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #331 on: December 20, 2019, 11:46:13 am »
Those ads people giving personal opinions
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/09/18/upshot/best-health-care-system-country-bracket.html
SEPT. 18, 2017
Not just some people:

To select the winner of each matchup, we gathered a small judging panel, which includes us:

    Aaron Carroll, a health services researcher and professor of pediatrics at Indiana University School of Medicine
    Austin Frakt, director of the Partnered Evidence-Based Policy Resource Center at the V.A. Boston Healthcare System; associate professor with Boston University’s School of Public Health; and adjunct associate professor with the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health

and three economists and physician experts in health care systems:


    Craig Garthwaite, a health economist with Northwestern University’s Kellogg School of Management
    Uwe Reinhardt, a health economist with Princeton University’s Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs
    Ashish Jha, a physician with the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health and the director of the Harvard Global Health Institute

A summary of our worldviews on health care is at bottom.
incumbo studiis


  • kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 5494

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #332 on: December 20, 2019, 12:13:49 pm »
This is exactly the same as assembling a crack team of doctors, nurses, and health professionals to discuss the dangers of vaccinations, and why they should be banned etc etc.
   Quacks come in all flavours.


  • waygo0k
  • The Legend

    • 4106

    • September 27, 2011, 11:51:01 am
    • Chungnam
Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
« Reply #333 on: December 20, 2019, 12:33:29 pm »

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/09/18/upshot/best-health-care-system-country-bracket.html
SEPT. 18, 2017
Not just some people:

To select the winner of each matchup, we gathered a small judging panel, which includes us:

    Aaron Carroll, a health services researcher and professor of pediatrics at Indiana University School of Medicine
    Austin Frakt, director of the Partnered Evidence-Based Policy Resource Center at the V.A. Boston Healthcare System; associate professor with Boston University’s School of Public Health; and adjunct associate professor with the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health

and three economists and physician experts in health care systems:


    Craig Garthwaite, a health economist with Northwestern University’s Kellogg School of Management
    Uwe Reinhardt, a health economist with Princeton University’s Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs
    Ashish Jha, a physician with the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health and the director of the Harvard Global Health Institute

A summary of our worldviews on health care is at bottom.

Again, those are personal opinions.

The figures from 2017 show the UK's healthcare system is still ranked no.1 in the world. In fact, it outperforms the Swiss system in every metric bar one.

https://interactives.commonwealthfund.org/2017/july/mirror-mirror/