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  • debbiem89
  • Super Waygook

    • 424

    • August 30, 2016, 09:42:49 am
    • South Korea
Relationship building help.
« on: October 16, 2018, 10:39:35 am »
So this is kind of a well trodden area...but I think I need some specific help.

My two middle schools are both (and have always been) out of control. The students are really low level and there's not a lot of discipline from their teachers. I teach at two schools and I'm seeing almost 400 students a week.

At my main school (generally the better of the two) the second graders have become unteachable. It's ALL the behaviour issues you would expect and more.

The specific issue I have today is the second grade girls. Their attitudes are absolutely disgusting...they roll their eyes and scream and talk and do everything they aren't supposed to. They talk to me like crap. So what has ended up happening is that I'm trying to discipline them so hard it's turned our relationship toxic.

There's a group of girls over a few different classes that hate my guts. I absolutely couldn't care less (I'm not someone who is desperate for my students to love me)...but it's making my job increasingly difficult. I think because I'm a young (ish lol) girl it's become like a Mean Girls environment. The boys can be told off and it's fine, we can go straight back to normal afterwards. The more I push the more they push back. I reached breaking point yesterday and today with this group. I moved one girl because she was just talking and laughing the whole class....I didn't yell just asked her to move. She was so put out that she wrote me a letter demanding to know what she'd done and the group of about 6 of them marched into another class I was teaching and tried to demand I read it.

It disturbed my first graders so much and felt like they were trying to intimidate me. I told them politely they needed to leave and I would read the letter at a later time...cue them barging into my office after school again demanding answers. I think I handled it ok...I told the rest of them to leave and spoke to the girl one on one. I explained why I moved her and after weeks of us clashing we seemed to understand each other a little more.

Only for today another member of the group to start yelling at me and having a fit during class because I asked her to open her book. She then tells my co teacher she speaks to me rudely because she doesn't understand english well. I'm sorry no...she knows that yelling "What?!!" and making ARGH noises in my face is rude af. Don't play me.

My idea now is I want to try and get some of the poison, bitchiness out of my relationship with these girls. I really hate being the teacher who's seen as being angry all the time and the stress is killing me. Does anyone have any cool relationship building activities I can use? Their level is SO low so something that's not going to stress them out would be great.

I take responsibility for my part in all of this so I don't need the criticism. I just want some constructive, practical ideas for an in class activity I can do to help. The usual bomb games etc aren't going to cut it. Maybe something that I can use to get to know them better and blow off some steam and relax.

Just some points:

1. My classes are 30+ students. So buying them stuff as rewards...I just can't. I have 6 classes each grade I teach so it's just not feasible to be constantly buying loads of crap all the time.

2. They are the most unmotivated students I've ever met. Games and points don't motivate them at all. In fact they hate most games..."NO JAMMMMM"

3. Co teachers are useless. They show up 20 minutes late if at all...they sit on their phones or reading a book, oblivious. I've tried to talk to them and they just shrug. They have admitted the students are the same for them and they can't handle them ( the seem happy to just let them act this way). They really undermine me in front of the students too. So asking them for help is basically a no go.

I honestly feel like I'm picking on these girls all the time and I don't want them to feel like that..at the same time though they make my classes impossible and it is ALWAYS them. I want to have a little fun with them and give them a chance to do something where I can praise them.

Any thoughts on something I can use to take us back to square one? Something I can do to help start to rebuild?



  • Aristocrat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1539

    • November 10, 2014, 01:04:27 pm
Re: Relationship building help.
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2018, 02:25:30 pm »
So this is kind of a well trodden area...but I think I need some specific help.

My two middle schools are both (and have always been) out of control. The students are really low level and there's not a lot of discipline from their teachers. I teach at two schools and I'm seeing almost 400 students a week.

At my main school (generally the better of the two) the second graders have become unteachable. It's ALL the behaviour issues you would expect and more.

The specific issue I have today is the second grade girls. Their attitudes are absolutely disgusting...they roll their eyes and scream and talk and do everything they aren't supposed to. They talk to me like crap. So what has ended up happening is that I'm trying to discipline them so hard it's turned our relationship toxic.

There's a group of girls over a few different classes that hate my guts. I absolutely couldn't care less (I'm not someone who is desperate for my students to love me)...but it's making my job increasingly difficult. I think because I'm a young (ish lol) girl it's become like a Mean Girls environment. The boys can be told off and it's fine, we can go straight back to normal afterwards. The more I push the more they push back. I reached breaking point yesterday and today with this group. I moved one girl because she was just talking and laughing the whole class....I didn't yell just asked her to move. She was so put out that she wrote me a letter demanding to know what she'd done and the group of about 6 of them marched into another class I was teaching and tried to demand I read it.

It disturbed my first graders so much and felt like they were trying to intimidate me. I told them politely they needed to leave and I would read the letter at a later time...cue them barging into my office after school again demanding answers. I think I handled it ok...I told the rest of them to leave and spoke to the girl one on one. I explained why I moved her and after weeks of us clashing we seemed to understand each other a little more.

Only for today another member of the group to start yelling at me and having a fit during class because I asked her to open her book. She then tells my co teacher she speaks to me rudely because she doesn't understand english well. I'm sorry no...she knows that yelling "What?!!" and making ARGH noises in my face is rude af. Don't play me.

My idea now is I want to try and get some of the poison, bitchiness out of my relationship with these girls. I really hate being the teacher who's seen as being angry all the time and the stress is killing me. Does anyone have any cool relationship building activities I can use? Their level is SO low so something that's not going to stress them out would be great.

I take responsibility for my part in all of this so I don't need the criticism. I just want some constructive, practical ideas for an in class activity I can do to help. The usual bomb games etc aren't going to cut it. Maybe something that I can use to get to know them better and blow off some steam and relax.

Just some points:

1. My classes are 30+ students. So buying them stuff as rewards...I just can't. I have 6 classes each grade I teach so it's just not feasible to be constantly buying loads of crap all the time.

2. They are the most unmotivated students I've ever met. Games and points don't motivate them at all. In fact they hate most games..."NO JAMMMMM"

3. Co teachers are useless. They show up 20 minutes late if at all...they sit on their phones or reading a book, oblivious. I've tried to talk to them and they just shrug. They have admitted the students are the same for them and they can't handle them ( the seem happy to just let them act this way). They really undermine me in front of the students too. So asking them for help is basically a no go.

I honestly feel like I'm picking on these girls all the time and I don't want them to feel like that..at the same time though they make my classes impossible and it is ALWAYS them. I want to have a little fun with them and give them a chance to do something where I can praise them.

Any thoughts on something I can use to take us back to square one? Something I can do to help start to rebuild?

I'm going to explain 2 things.

1, why this has happened and 2, what you can do.

1 - Unlike the West, the Korean workplace structure does not reward performance, it rewards seniority and good relationships with one's superiors. You could be the most capable teacher in the country and it wouldn't mean a thing, other than one's own satisfaction of doing a good job and pride in one's work (which isn't really part of the culture, you do a job because you're told to), there's zero incentive to actually get the students to improve. There's also zero consequence for being completely useless in the class.

Doing a good job in Korea means NOT BOTHERING YOUR SUPERIORS, this is also the starting point of creating a positive image of yourself to them. The day a teacher has to get the VP to talk to the students, call a parent or sort something out is the day the VP will hate that teacher's guts till the end of time.

So, even if the catastrophe in your class became biblically bad, your CT and the HR teacher would simply shrug and downplay it, as it's not in the best interests of their career to report the matter. Likewise, the VP and Principal are probably aware of the situation, but don't want to lose face by admitting there's a problem or are simply fish out of water as the only way they knew how to discipline was corporal punishment.
You're not going to get any help from them.

2 - Transfer. Those group of girls have shown everyone that the entire system of discipline at that school is impotent, you'll get more students following their example next year. Either leave the country or grit till your next contract renewal where you'll be asked if you want to transfer. Say yes and move on.


  • Datasapien
  • Super Waygook

    • 386

    • February 04, 2012, 09:36:25 pm
    • Chungcheongbuk-do
    more
Re: Relationship building help.
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2018, 03:16:18 pm »
I don't have much advice to give unfortunately but just wanted to say that I've got a group of girls in one class who sound like the spitting image of what you just described, although they haven't gotten as far down that path (at least not yet, although I sincerely hope it doesn't get to that stage haha). So you're not alone in the struggle!

The only things I could think of that might perhaps work are playing simple games with them, doing crafts or watching / talking about videos that interest them (my immediate thought was Kpop? Or maybe they're gamer girls?). But in large classes that's probably not going to work, unless you can get the 6 of them by themselves for an hour or so once a week or something? Remove the educational focus completely and just make it about getting to know each other ...?  :undecided:

Sounds rough as, so wishing you luck  :-[
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.


Re: Relationship building help.
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2018, 03:59:32 pm »
I'm sorry to hear about your situation. Without support from your coTs / school, you're facing a very steep uphill battle, and how effective any tactic you employ will depend SOOO heavily on each individual girl and their reasons for their attitudes towards you. They've already decided that everything you do is going to be the wrong thing. Even if they think a game or activity is fun, they're never going to admit it at this current juncture because they've already set a precedent among each other when regarding anything about you. They're at that age where they've got a lot to prove, and they possibly also have family issues fueling that (a common source of problem behavior from students). They've been permitted to run wild for far too long, so now they feel like they have a lot of power, and they've painted a large bullseye on you because they feel like you're an easy target. Once a certain type of student has this sense of entitlement (usually low level, unmotivated, and rude problem students), it's very difficult to cull it away from them. They fight tooth and nail to hold onto it, and, in many cases, it requires almost militant strategy to break it away from them once it gets this far.

Other times, though, it takes a gentle touch. It just depends on their motivations, personalities, and what their real feelings are.

You can test this out just by talking to them on a continual, consistent, one-on-one basis, outside of the classroom, both on a personal and on a disciplinary level. If you need to deal with their misbehavior, for example, talk to them outside of the classroom. Stop class and let your coT take over or whatever, but your reaction should be calm, immediate, and away from the ears of other students. How the problem students respond to this over a period of time -- whether or not they can be reasoned with, whether or not they ever display an understanding of where you're coming from while also understanding that you're willing to hear them out and to take what they say into consideration under the agreement that they respect you as a fellow human being -- can tell you if you can continue proceeding with a softer touch, or if a harder approach will be necessary.

I'm betting that some of their behavior is going to come from the fact that you're not Korean and that you're a NET -- there's an attitude about NETs among many of the students here, that NETs don't care about the students, so why should the students care about the NETs? Low level students especially feel this way, and it's a big part of their justification for not respecting the NET in general. Usually for any teacher, but especially for the NET. You might be able to change this perspective of theirs a bit by taking the time to talk to each student on a more personal level, away from the ears of other students, and learning their names if you haven't already. Be prepared for walls at first, but there will still be curiosity on their parts if they sense sincerity from you, and you'll start to see them waver if there's genuine interest on their parts later.

You can also try games and activities that students can play in small groups rather than as an entire class. That way, you can insert yourself into different groups, and work/play with them personally while the other, better behaved students help set a less toxic atmosphere. I once created a card game that is similar to "One Card" to play with a group of my lower level students, for example, so that I could have more one-on-one interaction with them using an activity that they were already familiar with (just modified for the class). Typically, I separate problem students away from each other and into different groups, and float around the class to randomly insert myself into each group's game while working to be each problem student's personal cheat sheet. It makes them feel more secure and that you're interested in both helping and interacting with them. This matters to some of them and, for those students, it will help to improve their behavior, but, again, it depends on the individual student. You can also choose random game days that have nothing to do with English. Choose games that students are familiar with and that THEY have to teach YOU how to play (even if you already know -- just don't let them know).

Other than all of that, I'm with Aristocrat about just transferring when you can. Keep in mind that there's only so much you can do without support from the school and other teachers, and that the problem students you're dealing with may be outside of your scope to handle without that support. If the school doesn't want to provide you with the support that you need, and it's perfectly happy with burning itself to the ground, you shouldn't have to go down with it. Find yourself a better environment.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 05:23:17 pm by Chinguetti »


  • Cyanea
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1008

    • September 04, 2016, 01:48:24 pm
    • Las Vegas
Re: Relationship building help.
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2018, 10:38:38 pm »
I played football every lunchtime with the boys.  Apart from really enjoying it, some of the worst boys in class became my best behaved (still low level, but just quiet) as I'd help them with their footballing.

What you're doing essentially is begging the kids to behave. ultimately some will just out of pity for you.

Quote from: Chinguetti
or if a harder approach will be necessary.

lol such as?


If I was korean teenager I wouldn't respect the teachers either. Grown adults fawning all over you at breaktime trying to act like your buddy.

Kids expect teachers to have real authority and enforce a secure environment in which they can learn. Half policeman, half caregiver. If you do not provide this, they will resent you.

The fact is that the only effective way to provide the structure and framework kids need is CP. The moment they removed that they lost the battle.


What we're doing now as "teachers" is play acting. If the Koreans weren't so afraid of their higher ups and had any collones, they'd band together and demand a return to CP to restore order to the classroom and safeguard the future of the next generation. But since they are so afraid of doing the right thing everytime and just scapegoat the waygook or whoever is the easiest target, then "education" will continue to be a waste of time in Korea for the kids, the parents, the teachers..everyone concerned.

OP do yourself a favour and just stop caring, because you're in an unwinnable situation. Pick up your paycheque and hope that you make it to the end of contract without suffering too much emotional abuse from the students.. is all you have to do. If you do not have anything tying you to this country and actually take teaching seriously, go to a different country. Preferably one which still employs CP. Some countries in the world still have standards (not many) but some do.
Catch my drift?


  • debbiem89
  • Super Waygook

    • 424

    • August 30, 2016, 09:42:49 am
    • South Korea
Re: Relationship building help.
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2018, 09:39:19 am »
Firstly thanks everyone for such great responses. Really comprehensive and gave me a lot to think about!

I like the idea of taking them aside to talk to them when they play up. I think I lose my cool sometimes or I talk to them in front of the class and they absolutely love the attention. I just get a load of sarcastic yeahs back usually...much to the amusement of some of the other students. I think this may work because in the situation I described when the student wrote me a letter...first I moved her then when I was walking around listening to students speak in groups she flat out refused to open her mouth. I calmly asked her what her problem was with my class and why we had to argue every week. I think the calmness and sincerity of my question made her a little upset because for all her bravado she seemed a little teary...then she left the class and wrote me the letter. Maybe the one on one route is the way to go.

Although in an ideal world I could chat to them outside of class as some of you suggested...I just don't think it's feasible. My students just hang around their homebase in between classes and I think if I walked over and tried to join in their conversation they would actually die laughing. I mean imagine if you were 15 and a teacher did that. They'd be ripped to shreds. It's different if they play soccer I guess!

I do chat to them in between classes like 5 or so minutes before my classes start and in my other school my students are constantly coming to talk to me about soccer and the EPL but that's as far as it goes really.

I think CP isn't the answer even theoretically. I've heard absolute horror stories about it and if there's no other way to teach than to abuse students...I want no part of teaching!

I do think I need to care less. It's tough because previous years I was able to get along well with practically all my students and have some fun too...this one particular grade are just spoiling it so much for me. I get so frustrated and honestly I probably just need to wait out the bell in some of these hellish classes and get on with my day.


I'll try and play some group focused games and maybe something less "English" focused to try and just relax them a little bit and make us all less tense.

My Co teachers know my classes are horrific (so are theirs) but they just don't care enough to bother trying to help...I guess they've got their own problems!

Sorry if I've missed anything...I did read everything and took loads away from the replies :)

I think I need to man up a bit haha
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 09:50:17 am by debbiem89 »


  • debbiem89
  • Super Waygook

    • 424

    • August 30, 2016, 09:42:49 am
    • South Korea
Re: Relationship building help.
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2018, 12:27:09 pm »
I'm going to second Stepz here. My kids normally come to class five to ten minutes before bell time, and I just walk through and talk to them all until class starts. If there is never natural downtime to talk to the kids there isn't much to be done about it. But I have had a lot of luck in just talking to the kids about things they are interested in, and showing interest in their lives (and incorporating things I know they're interested in into the ppts).

I also wonder if reframing things mentally might help for you. I know it felt like the kids came into the class to try and intimidate you, but I've personally noticed a lot of loyalty and support among the friend groups here. If one of the girls felt like an injustice was done to her, but was too anxious to speak to you on it, it's possible she wrote the note so she wouldn't have to say it out-loud to you, and then her friends (full of righteous anger) were there to back their friend up.

If they are a super close-knit group of friends, you might just need to connect with one, and then the whole group will be chill. I realize once disorder hits a certain point it can be hard to just make it through a class :/

Have you asked if your school has any budget? I was able to do an English cooking class with my kids that, while was a ton of work, really went well. I've also incorporated in some individual activities like poster making, where the kids have to write a paragraph but then just draw. I have a lot of kids who like drawing in my classes and gives everyone some time to chill. I make them briefly present in class to make sure everyone does it.

Good luck, it sounds like you've been doing a lot and sometimes all we can do is just get through it. Hope things get better.

edited to add: CP is horrible idea. I think it's fair to side-eye anyone waxing on about how they wish they could beat children.

The girl who wrote the note is by no means the worst...but she's not anxious. She screams at the top of her lungs regularly and will ALWAYS argue with the teachers in class. This time I think she got a shock because usually she knows full well what she's doing...this time she genuinely believed she didn't do anything. Tbf she wasn't horrendous but I just wanted to change her seat before it escalated. So I think she's compared this occasion to the past ones and decided it was unfair haha. You are right though I do think the friends came as a kind of support (that or they were being nosey and wanted to see what would happen! haha).

You're also right about connecting with one. I think when I asked the others to leave and talked to her alone. We both kind of laughed because we couldn't say our point in each others' language well and had to use google translate. So hopefully it blew over a little (at least with one student lol) and we will understand each other more in class.

There's no real budget...certainly not enough to do something cool like cooking with the whole grade. But getting them to be creative might be an idea. They'll generally not bother and just scribble something as quick as possible but perhaps I can make it more fun! Halloween is coming up so maybe I can grab some halloween candy or something as an incentive :) I never ever give candy at this school so it might be nice for a treat.

Thanks for the response! Reframing the situation is probably what I need to do. I'm generally good at seeing bad behaviour instead of bad students...but maybe I've lost sight of that a bit.


  • Cyanea
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1008

    • September 04, 2016, 01:48:24 pm
    • Las Vegas
Re: Relationship building help.
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2018, 01:19:59 pm »
edited to add: CP is horrible idea. I think it's fair to side-eye anyone waxing on about how they wish they could beat children.

A) you've never known or experienced CP so you have no clue what you're talking about B) I think its fair to "side-eye" any school that allows their kids to abuse teachers and abuse eachother


Quote
I think CP isn't the answer even theoretically. I've heard absolute horror stories about it and if there's no other way to teach than to abuse students...I want no part of teaching!

there's a difference between abuse and discipline. it seems like you have never experienced a CP school. they are light years ahead of the chaotic nightmare you are living in.

 What you're imagining is some kind of dickensian craziness. No, CP does not have to be the worst thing you can think. There are/ were very effective and beneficial CP systems. Banning CP was like banning all cars because some people have accidents. It was a totally needless and stupid move by people who didn't have any clue about education. the results are all around you today in the massively dysfunctional korean "education" system. But continue being abused by minors if thats the system you want.
Catch my drift?


  • debbiem89
  • Super Waygook

    • 424

    • August 30, 2016, 09:42:49 am
    • South Korea
Re: Relationship building help.
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2018, 02:30:00 pm »
edited to add: CP is horrible idea. I think it's fair to side-eye anyone waxing on about how they wish they could beat children.

A) you've never known or experienced CP so you have no clue what you're talking about B) I think its fair to "side-eye" any school that allows their kids to abuse teachers and abuse eachother


Quote
I think CP isn't the answer even theoretically. I've heard absolute horror stories about it and if there's no other way to teach than to abuse students...I want no part of teaching!

there's a difference between abuse and discipline. it seems like you have never experienced a CP school. they are light years ahead of the chaotic nightmare you are living in.

 What you're imagining is some kind of dickensian craziness. No, CP does not have to be the worst thing you can think. There are/ were very effective and beneficial CP systems. Banning CP was like banning all cars because some people have accidents. It was a totally needless and stupid move by people who didn't have any clue about education. the results are all around you today in the massively dysfunctional korean "education" system. But continue being abused by minors if thats the system you want.

Show me ANY proof that hitting kids helps further their education. Let's teach kids the only way to solve anything is violence.

Show me these schools that are apparently light years ahead and show me how.


  • Cyanea
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1008

    • September 04, 2016, 01:48:24 pm
    • Las Vegas
Re: Relationship building help.
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2018, 02:53:36 pm »
It sounds like you experience corporal punishment growing up and didn't see it as negatively impacting you,

I grew up at a CP school then later transferred to a non-CP school. To me the differences are fairly obvious.

CP schools have a much more respectful and secure atmosphere. Class time was mostly about learning, the teacher taught without interruption. if you wanted to ask a question you raised your hand. If students were disruptive or rude  they might get a ruler across the hand, on the spot, as a first step. For things like bullying other students, being unruly, verbally abusive to the teacher or others, they would be sent for the cane. Depending on their offence, they would recieve from 1 to 6 strikes to the rear. This punishment was observed by other staff members, and dealt only after the students parents had been called and given consent. if parents did not agree, the student might be given something like detention or tasks such as picking up litter, etc, but if these penalties did not reform the childs misbehaviour, then the school could ultimately suspend or expel them.
Nobody ever suffered physical harm from the cane, and it was quite rare to get caned. Usually at the start of term a few misbehaving students were caned, then that was enough to establish the deterrent and settle the school down nicely for the entire term/ year.
Students were generally respectful and mostly kind. They got good academic results and took a pride in their achievements.


At the non-CP school(s), the worst students run the show. They have both teachers and other students (and even the principal!) living in fear because they can disrupt classes endlessly, bully and insult other students (and teachers) at will, knowing there are no consequences. There are no boundaries: at schools in Korea i have seen boys punching girls and nothing is done because everyone is afraid of offending parents. teachers spend most of their time attempting crowd control rather than teaching. Even good students are forced to become bad just to survive such an environment. The atmosphere is chaotic. Most teachers become apathetic or suffer from high stress and anxiety levels. Teachers become victimized by the administration, which is afraid to label the problem for what it is. They also  become scapegoated by the parents (who are constantly shielded from the reality of what is happening by an image-conscious administration). Teachers may be verbally abused by students at any time without recourse and may even be physically assaulted, with no effective action taken. Ultimately teachers give up and leave the profession.


Quote
but that's not true for everyone.

I'm not sure what your exp of CP is. Certanly I don't agree with the cases of teachers punching or slapping students. That is not the system I am advocating. But critics of CP like to find the worst examples they can and pretend its the norm. It isn't. And proponents of CP simply want orderly and respectful schools, they are not "abusers". If punishment is the same as abuse, then you may as well release all criminals from the jails. You see the reality of life is that justice is upheld when offendors are punished. When you do not effectively tackle behavioural problems, you facilitate and encourage bad behaviour.


Quote
I think I was personally lucky to have had many teachers that put a focus on emotional development, respect and responsibility and that definitely shapes how I view my role as a teacher.

Absolutely. And those values are best fostered in an orderly and respectful environment. Not the chaotic and abusive environment resulting from the zero-punishment culture.
Catch my drift?


Re: Relationship building help.
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2018, 08:25:33 pm »
I notice that you didn't actually show any proof that CP is more effective then other forms of discipline. Because it sure isn't. Seriously, read some of the new research take some modern child development courses. We know a lot more then we used to.

I'm also really confused why you keep comparing CP to no structure of any kind. You understand that physical discipline is not the only forms of discipline and classroom management, right? How in the world are you running your classroom now? Clearly, there are many forms of consequence that don't involve physical discipline. Have you ever actually hit a child? Why do you keep talking like you want to?

Also, you are the one trying to compare the best case of CP to the worse case of no discipline. The reality is the best case of CP is always worse then what can be accomplished without it. If you have to hit a child to have order in your classroom you aren't a good teacher.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 09:05:16 pm by Iced_Chai »


  • Cyanea
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1008

    • September 04, 2016, 01:48:24 pm
    • Las Vegas
Re: Relationship building help.
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2018, 02:26:25 pm »
I notice that you didn't actually show any proof that CP is more effective then other forms of discipline.

I speak from personal experience, you don't  :undecided:. To you a school without CP is the norm, and you have only your wild imagination and media indoctrination to refer to when it comes to any concept of CP.

Surveys of teachers indicate that student behaviour has degenerated since withdrawal of CP.

If you don't believe me, talk to some older teachers. CP was only banned in korea 10? years ago. Ask them what are the differences in student behaviour since then. I assure you, most teachers who have experience of both will tell you that student misbehavior has worsened considerably. The few who disagree are usually principals, deputies etc who don't actually have to teach or manage classes themselves and who are bound by political correctness to take a certain stance.

Quote
Children's behaviour has grown considerably worse since the abolition of corporal punishment 25 years ago, teachers have warned.

Successive governments have failed to introduce an effective way to deal with misbehaviour since striking pupils with a cane or slipper was outlawed in 1987, the annual conference of the Association of Teachers and Lecturers (ATL) heard.

Teachers said detentions fail to deter pupils, while exclusions and suspensions are only handed out in the most serious cases because inspectors take a dim view of schools that regularly exclude children.

"The forms of discipline currently available to teachers for dealing with inappropriate behaviour remain totally inadequate," Julian Perfect, a London teacher told the conference.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/apr/04/corporal-punishment-student-behaviour-worse

Quote
The impact of the abolition of corporal punishment on
teacher morale
: 1994–2004
Matsidiso Naong
mn aon g@ cut.ac.za
There is a direct correlation between (teacher) morale and (learner) discipline at
school. Since the scrapping of corporal punishment, a sense of despair seems
to have taken over amongst teachers in South Africa. The findings of this study
indicated that more than 65% of teachers, out of a sample population of 80
respondents from scho ols located in B loem fontein in the Free State, claimed that
discipline at schools had deteriorated, and that their passion for teaching and
the joy they had once found in their work had been adversely affected since the
decision had com e into effect. Amongst the many reasons for low morale, cited
by the teachers, lack of discipline was clearly the most prevalent and common
concern, and generally seemed to be attributed to the abolition of corporal
punishment.
https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1150181.pdf

Do you deny the facts?


Quote
I'm also really confused why you keep comparing CP to no structure of any kind. You understand that physical discipline is not the only forms of discipline and classroom management, right?

Of course, but those punishments are only effective on some students, not all. They are also time-consuming and wasteful of resources. The teacher is supposed to teach, not spend 99% of their time on crowd control, devising psychological manipulations or spending all of their out-of-class time on discipline.

The worst students do not respond to your kind of punishments. CP is needed as a deterrent for the minority of students in the worst cases. 

Quote
Have you ever actually hit a child? Why do you keep talking like you want to?

 Stop using emotional language or casting aspersions on other peoples character. Try to stick to facts and logic, not emotionalism.

You're already disrespecting me and showing an inability to support your viewpoint objectively and without resorting to ad homs. Obviously you are a result of the disrespectful system that you are advocating.


Quote
Also, you are the one trying to compare the best case of CP

Its not the best case though, its normal, at the school I was at, for students to act respectfully to other people most of the time. It was normal for students to focus on study most of the time as opposed to clowning around 24/7. You make it seem like a miraculous exception. Its not, its just the way things are if you have an effective deterrent.

Do you want to abolish jails and let criminals out? Is punishment of criminals "abuse" to you, and we should just let murderers go all out and express their personalities? How dare we lock rapists up, it might offend their self-esteem.

Quote
The reality is the best case of CP is always worse then what can be accomplished without it.

You don't speak from experience but from PC indoctrination. Why should i believe anything you say?

Quote
If you have to hit a child to have order in your classroom you aren't a good teacher.

Lol now you're just parroting a line that is used to scapegoat teachers instead of acknowledging the system is broke.

First up, nobody "hits" anyone. I already told you I don't agree with anyone slapping or punching at all, which is what the emotionally loaded word "hitting" usually means. What I mentioned to you was the cane, administered openly under observation of other staff members, with consent of parents. ie a controlled environment.

Do you really prefer a school with students just running wild, bullying eachother, hitting eachother, insulting teachers, wasting class time endlessly? Because this is the reality of what you are advocating. Is it really loving and caring, as you claim, to force that environment on kids? I don't think so. Civilised societies uphold justice and order. What about the kids who get bullied? you just let it happen I suppose because you don't want to offend the bully. Which is pathetic.

Quote
Massive rise in disruptive behaviour, warn teachers
Survey shows 90% of school staff have dealt with extreme behaviour in the last year

A survey by the Association of Teachers and Lecturers (ATL) found that the vast majority of staff had recorded a rise in the number of children with emotional, behavioural or mental health problems.

The union collated numerous examples of challenging behaviour, ranging from violent assault to defamatory campaigns on social media.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/mar/24/schools-disruptive-behaviour
Catch my drift?


  • Cyanea
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1008

    • September 04, 2016, 01:48:24 pm
    • Las Vegas
Re: Relationship building help.
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2018, 02:48:49 pm »
Yes, of course.  The ultimate respect giver.  'Do as we say or we'll hit you'  Fantastic example to set students, and something for them to take into their later lives.

Its the reality of what civilization is founded upon: upholding justice, law and order, using physical force if necessary. Yes its very important for students to learn that there are penalties and consequences for antisocial behaviour.

You otoh are trying to teach them that they can misbehave as much as they like and nothing effective will ever be done about it. Thats not helpful to the child nor society. it also creates degenerate criminal adults.

According to you then we should also allow criminals out of the jails and stop all punishments because its inhumane. Let the murderers run free, because punishing wrongdoers is wrong! according to dave stepz. Nonsense.

Quote
The difference between them is down to a ton of factors:  principal, location, teachers, the parents, motivation, the learning environment, class sizes, even down the makeup of the class.  That is to name a few. 

Agreed, a lot of factors come into play. However having an effective deterrent against bad behaviour is common to all successful schools.


Quote
For the record, I got the cane on numerous occasions at primary school.  Did it make a difference at the time?  No.  I just grew up.  It was not a deterrent.

You're saying you just persisted in whatever misbehaviour regardless? if so then you should have been suspended or expelled.

But even if you did continue, the fact that you recieved CP served as a deterrent to other students in the school as whole, whether you were personally aware of it or not. 

Quote
In your first example but not the second, you mentioned expulsion for continued bad behaviour.  I'm right behind this, and something that Korean schools should do, but they don't.  Middle school students getting caught smoking in the toilets, to me, give them a couple of warnings and if they continue, boot them out.  What would CP do to change these students?  Nothing. 

CP prevents a whole lot of bad behaviour from mushrooming into something much worse that ultimately requires expulsion. It nips in the bud all kinds of behaviours that if you allow to worsen become much more serious. There really shouldn't be a need for lots of suspensions or expulsions. If a school has to do that a lot, its a sign they are failing. At the CP school I attended, it almost never happened because CP dealt with such problems before they arose. Also because the school got such good results, parents did not want their kids to be expelled. So they made sure their kids behaved.

For the record I don't think smoking is an expulsion offence, the students are not harming others. 

But students who bully or are violent to others, who waste their parents money by never doing homework or purposely "losing" all their textbooks every time; who waste other students classtime by disrupting classes constantly, who demoralize teachers by insulting and abusing them. These are serious offences that affect others. And they're not solved by your namby-pamby PC notions of giving the offendors "counselling" or "being nicer to them". Stop rewarding bad behaviour, have the balls to do something effective to avert it. Other students will thank you for providing a secure environment.


Prove to me that student behaviour has improved since the abolition of CP.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 02:55:28 pm by Cyanea »
Catch my drift?


  • Cyanea
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1008

    • September 04, 2016, 01:48:24 pm
    • Las Vegas
Re: Relationship building help.
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2018, 09:13:37 pm »
 :laugh: I win the debate again..


Because nobody can show that student behaviour has improved since they banned CP.


Catch my drift?


  • emcee
  • Adventurer

    • 45

    • November 21, 2016, 08:00:56 am
    • Korea
Re: Relationship building help.
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2018, 01:25:56 pm »
:laugh: I win the debate again..


Because nobody can show that student behaviour has improved since they banned CP.

Gee wiz.

'You can't prove I'm wrong, ergo I'm right.'

What a troll.


  • Cyanea
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1008

    • September 04, 2016, 01:48:24 pm
    • Las Vegas
Re: Relationship building help.
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2018, 03:45:16 pm »

these countries that think it's fine to use CP in schools.  (As of 2016)

   Republic of Korea

   Singapore

South Korea banned CP by the way. That's what this thread is about.

Quote
that's your caveman style prerogative.

Singaporeans are cavemen in your estimation?

Look, insulting any person or nation who disagrees with you does not win any debates, its a sign of desperation. You have to actually prove your argument with valid points. And you can't show that student behaviour and performance has improved since they stopped CP. Quite the opposite.


Quote
The world has moved on Cyanea.


Really? According to your list most of the world uses CP.

Change is not equivalent to progress by the way.


Quote
In a study in Nigeria, children who attended a school that allowed corporal punishment (slapping, pinching

I already spelled out the model of CP I am advocating: it does not include slapping or pinching. I'm talking about the cane.

Quote
The strongest demonstration of the links between school corporal punishment and children’s learning to date has come from UNICEF’s Young Lives study of children in four developing countries, namely Ethiopia, India, Peru, and Vietnam.....Importantly, in none of the countries did school corporal punishment at age 8 predict better school performance at age 12.

Ahhh... Unicef!! well if that humanist globalist one-world organisation says something, it must be true! Because its not like they're a puppet organization run from New york and part of the aim to extend dumb american ideas around the world.


Quote
It is thus not surprising that school corporal punishment has been linked with mental and behavioral problems in children. School corporal punishment was the strongest predictor of depression among school children in a study in Hungary, more so than corporal punishment by parents.

It doesn't say what kind of punishments were used or how they measured the results. Its just anecdotal hearsay by someone who is clearly brainwashed against CP.

They also don't mention that these "studies" are little more than propaganda projects with a foregone conclusion. They get funding to try and find reasons why CP is bad, then whaddya know, they come out with the conclusion they were paid to find, then they recieve their PhD or whatever piece of paper as a reward for spouting the desired opinion.

 
Quote
Although the research on school corporal punishment and children's mental health and behavior is limited

No kidding.

Do you think unicef accepts any studies that say CP is beneficial? or does it just throw them in the garbage bin.

Quote
Take for example, our lovely Korea.  It came 22nd out of the OECD countries in 2016 for student unhappiness.  You want to make their lives more miserable?  Bring back CP everywhere.  Changing society in Korea, have shorter working days, have shorter school days, have longer holidays, scrap the university entrance test, recognising student developmental issues, all of these will have an effect.


I wan't talking about student happiness, I was talking about student behaviour and performance.

Students are happier in a secure environment. Not the chaotic zoo you are recommending where the worst excesses of kids are given free rein.

Quote
Smacking students?  Will do nothing.

You and your porkies. Actually caning the worst miscreants does have a beneficial effect, and even studies show that it results in compliance.

Quote
Developed countries have moved on

They're experiencing unprecedented problems because the UN forced them to toe the line.

If having half your schools riot is "moving on", then I can only laugh at what you consider to be progress.


Quote
Things are not always black and white.  There is a ton of grey there.  That is the part you don't understand.


Actually you're the one painting things in terms of black and white.

Firstly you portray all CP as the same and label it as "violence". So you begin by conflating vastly different methods and then misapplying emotional words to it. Thats not science, its ameteur dramatics.
Catch my drift?


  • Cyanea
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1008

    • September 04, 2016, 01:48:24 pm
    • Las Vegas
Re: Relationship building help.
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2018, 04:08:15 pm »
I pulled a few quotes, and linked to a few articles about physical punishment,

Ah. Most of those studies make basic unscientific errors. They're little more than propaganda pieces for the humanist society.

Quote
Research on Disciplinary Spanking is Misleading
American College of Pediatricians – January 2017

In recent years, some medical organizations and many media outlets have claimed that disciplinary spanking causes emotional harm in children that predisposes them to aggressive behavior when they are older. Although parents sometimes misuse or over-use spanking, does science really show that ordinary spanking of persistently disobedient children causes irreparable harm? The answer may be found by examining the quality of the research behind this claim.

It turns out that most research against spanking uses methods so flawed that such studies would be rejected if they were being used to halt a medical procedure, such as chemotherapy for combating cancer.  The anti-spanking research suffers from three major fallacies or defects that invalidate its conclusions. These flaws are evident in a recent summary of research on spanking by Dr. Elizabeth Gershoff and her colleague, Dr. Andrew Grogan-Kaylor.1

The correlational fallacy: Correlations, or associations between two variables, do not prove causation. Correlations are especially misleading when evaluating actions chosen to correct disciplinary or medical problems, called corrective actions.
The extrapolation fallacy: Even if infrequent spanking is correlated with better outcomes than overly frequent spanking, that does not prove that zero spanking is best.
The lumping fallacy: Only 4 of their 75 studies were limited to two open-handed swats to the buttocks for child defiance. The other 71 studies lumped together all “spanking” regardless of how it was implemented and why it was used.
https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/parenting-issues/corporal-punishment-a-scientific-review-of-its-use-in-discipline/research-on-disciplinary-spanking-is-misleading

Quote
According to the research, children spanked up to the age of 6 were likely as teenagers to perform better at school and were more likely to carry out volunteer work and to want to go to college than their peers who had never been physically disciplined.”

But how do we reconcile these contradictory findings? Well, perhaps the answer is that the previous scientific studies weren’t very scientific. Fox points out that, in the past, such research was lacking because it was difficult in more traditional times to find subjects who had never been spanked. In contrast, Professor Gunnoe included 2600 such individuals in her study.

https://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/family/item/548-new-study-finds-spanking-is-good-for-kids

So you see: the evidence, when carried out scientifically, clearly shows that CP is beneficial.


Why are you so in favour of chaotic crazy classrooms that allow and condone abusive behaviour?

Do you enjoy seeing kids disrupt class and bully other students?
Do you enjoy seeing kids so badly behaved in public places that they are a nuisance to everyone in the vicinity? Do you like seeing kids misbehaviours go uncorrected for so long that they develop into criminals as adults and end up in jail?
Do you like class time being wasted for entire years by a minority of miscreants because the school is too afraid to punish their misbehaviour?



You see your pansy approach does vastly more harm than good.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 04:10:50 pm by Cyanea »
Catch my drift?


  • Cyanea
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1008

    • September 04, 2016, 01:48:24 pm
    • Las Vegas
Re: Relationship building help.
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2018, 04:31:22 pm »
'You can't prove I'm wrong, ergo I'm right.'

No, I said you can't show that student behaviour and performance has improved in schools that banned CP.

The Kenyan government caved to UN american pressure and banned CP in their schools in 2001. Within 12 years their schools were reduced to ashes.

Quote
As of Wednesday morning, 21 schools had had their dormitories torched. How-ever, we cannot blame teachers for the student riots.

If anything, we should blame parents for failing to instil discipline in their children. Children are becoming narcissists and sociopaths, and teachers can no longer con-trol them.
https://www.nation.co.ke/oped/letters/School-riots-time-to-take-action/440806-4661622-yix74gz/index.html

Because the elephant in the room is that student behaviour and performance has worsened dramatically.  We have only to look at your crazy american schools to see the result of your stupidity.
Catch my drift?


  • Cyanea
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1008

    • September 04, 2016, 01:48:24 pm
    • Las Vegas
Re: Relationship building help.
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2018, 04:35:30 am »
the American College of Pediatricians. It is a socially conservative advocacy group that has been listed as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center, and has a history of pushing junk science.

Says who? The lefties with a different opinion. So basically whoever has the power gets to decide what is "science" or "junk science"  and gets to label their rivals as a "hate group". Its playground politics.

Instead of judging an argument on who presents it, try to judge it based on its merits. You see that is the first law of logic and critical thinking. When you politicize everything then you stop thinking straight.  But you probably grew up assing about in class (because you could) and never learning the discipline necessary for rational thought. because your society is getting dumbed down by the lack of discipline in what is a half-destroyed education system.


I speak from experience, you obviously do not. I grew up in a school with CP and one without. I taught at a school with CP and ones without. You can't tell me that the namby pamby zero punishment loony lefty humanist pansy system you have foisted on the world gives better results than the millenia old tried and tested methods of cp. Because I know for a fact it doesn't, and so does anyone with the slightest bit of common sense.

Quote
Why it's crucial to discipline children and set foundations for good behavior

If you’ve ever known kids who are not regularly disciplined by their parents, you’ve probably seen some very stark examples of why it’s important to discipline children.


Discipline is not only good for children, it is necessary for their happiness and well-being. Discipline is as vital for healthy child development as nutritious food, physical and cognitive exercises, love, and other basic needs. Without discipline, children lack the tools necessary to navigate relationships and challenges in life such as self-discipline, respect for others, and the ability to cooperate with peers.

Contrary to what some parents may mistakenly believe, children who are not regularly disciplined are not happy. In fact, failure to discipline children often results in kids who are unhappy, angry, and even resentful. To those around him, a child who is not disciplined will be unpleasant company, and a child without discipline may find it difficult to make friends.

For school-age children, in particular, learning how to manage their own behavior and regulate their negative impulses is particularly crucial. As elementary-school-age children head into adolescence and the turbulence of the teenage years, they will be much more likely to successfully navigate challenges and temptations if they have the tools to discipline themselves.

Understanding How Discipline Works
There are many reasons why a parent may not want to discipline a child. Some parents may be reluctant to discipline children because they want to avoid having conflict or because they don’t want to have their child be angry at them. Others may be unable or unwilling to devote time and energy to the task of disciplining children. And still, others may have unpleasant memories of being disciplined when they were children and may want to make things easier on their own kids by relaxing rules and giving them more free rein.


But the fact is, discipline is not about creating conflict with your child or lashing out in anger. Child discipline, when done correctly, is not about trying to control your child but about showing her how to control her own behavior. It is not about punishing a child for doing something wrong but about setting clear parameters and consequences for breaking rules so that she learns how to discipline herself.

https://www.verywellfamily.com/surprising-reasons-why-we-need-to-discipline-children-620115



So now, stop sidestepping the obvious, try to get past your lifetime of humanistic brainwashing, and prove to me that student behaviour and performance has improved since they banned CP. Or shut up and disappear.


« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 04:37:10 am by Cyanea »
Catch my drift?


Re: Relationship building help.
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2018, 10:43:48 am »
the American College of Pediatricians. It is a socially conservative advocacy group that has been listed as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center, and has a history of pushing junk science.

Says who? The lefties with a different opinion. So basically whoever has the power gets to decide what is "science" or "junk science"  and gets to label their rivals as a "hate group". Its playground politics.

Instead of judging an argument on who presents it, try to judge it based on its merits. You see that is the first law of logic and critical thinking. When you politicize everything then you stop thinking straight.  But you probably grew up assing about in class (because you could) and never learning the discipline necessary for rational thought. because your society is getting dumbed down by the lack of discipline in what is a half-destroyed education system.


I speak from experience, you obviously do not. I grew up in a school with CP and one without. I taught at a school with CP and ones without. You can't tell me that the namby pamby zero punishment loony lefty humanist pansy system you have foisted on the world gives better results than the millenia old tried and tested methods of cp. Because I know for a fact it doesn't, and so does anyone with the slightest bit of common sense.

Quote
Why it's crucial to discipline children and set foundations for good behavior

If you’ve ever known kids who are not regularly disciplined by their parents, you’ve probably seen some very stark examples of why it’s important to discipline children.


Discipline is not only good for children, it is necessary for their happiness and well-being. Discipline is as vital for healthy child development as nutritious food, physical and cognitive exercises, love, and other basic needs. Without discipline, children lack the tools necessary to navigate relationships and challenges in life such as self-discipline, respect for others, and the ability to cooperate with peers.

Contrary to what some parents may mistakenly believe, children who are not regularly disciplined are not happy. In fact, failure to discipline children often results in kids who are unhappy, angry, and even resentful. To those around him, a child who is not disciplined will be unpleasant company, and a child without discipline may find it difficult to make friends.

For school-age children, in particular, learning how to manage their own behavior and regulate their negative impulses is particularly crucial. As elementary-school-age children head into adolescence and the turbulence of the teenage years, they will be much more likely to successfully navigate challenges and temptations if they have the tools to discipline themselves.

Understanding How Discipline Works
There are many reasons why a parent may not want to discipline a child. Some parents may be reluctant to discipline children because they want to avoid having conflict or because they don’t want to have their child be angry at them. Others may be unable or unwilling to devote time and energy to the task of disciplining children. And still, others may have unpleasant memories of being disciplined when they were children and may want to make things easier on their own kids by relaxing rules and giving them more free rein.


But the fact is, discipline is not about creating conflict with your child or lashing out in anger. Child discipline, when done correctly, is not about trying to control your child but about showing her how to control her own behavior. It is not about punishing a child for doing something wrong but about setting clear parameters and consequences for breaking rules so that she learns how to discipline herself.

https://www.verywellfamily.com/surprising-reasons-why-we-need-to-discipline-children-620115



So now, stop sidestepping the obvious, try to get past your lifetime of humanistic brainwashing, and prove to me that student behaviour and performance has improved since they banned CP. Or shut up and disappear.

What a stupid comment.  How can you based an entire aspect of life based on 1 factor.  The economy has changed, infaltion has affected families spending dynamics, the government has changed, public sentiment to their security has not been different in 60 years - all this will change the life of the average family, and how the parents treat their children, but let's take one small factor and if you cannot prove that is the reason for / against the current situation, then shut up? 

Do you really think that beating a child leads to anything other than fear and resentment?

Also, as i have said before, if you would even consider letting a Korean lay a hand on your child, then you do not deserve to have children.





And what happens when a teacher goes too far?  they get suspended and moved to a different school.  If you did the same thing to a Korean ADULT on the street, you would face jail!
« Last Edit: October 27, 2018, 10:48:28 am by sligo »