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  • sh9wntm
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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2018, 10:11:05 am »
Natural selection working it's magic. People will choose cheap, temporary gratification over the lasting joy of raising your replacement in the world and passing on your lineage. Technology has diluted much of what made families important. Why commit to someone, when you can instantly find 100's of other people online? Why raise a child when you can buy luxury clothes and cars like the celebs? Why work when you can rummage on Waygook :)?


  • kyndo
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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2018, 10:16:32 am »
Natural selection working it's magic. People will choose cheap, temporary gratification over the lasting joy of raising your replacement in the world and passing on your lineage. Technology has diluted much of what made families important. Why commit to someone, when you can instantly find 100's of other people online? Why raise a child when you can buy luxury clothes and cars like the celebs? Why work when you can rummage on Waygook :)?
    The corollary of this, of course, being that people irresponsibly give in to their baser instincts without first considering the economic and social consequences of doing so. Will your child be raised to contribute something positive to the world, or will it be yet another burden on society and the environment?

   There's absolutely nothing wrong with having children so long as one has the means and the will to raise it properly. There is also nothing wrong with choosing to not have kids. I'm actually kind of astounded that people have such strong opinions about this one way or the other.  :huh:


Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2018, 10:17:35 am »
So do you think this lady is a shining example of rejecting instant gratification for loftier pursuits?


Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2018, 10:20:07 am »
Quote
I'm actually kind of astounded that people have such strong opinions about this one way or the other.  :huh:

It is a fairly important subject - the future of the human race and all that.


  • kyndo
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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2018, 10:25:07 am »
Quote
I'm actually kind of astounded that people have such strong opinions about this one way or the other.  :huh:
It is a fairly important subject - the future of the human race and all that.
    Don't be silly. The human race will go on regardless: global society is diverse enough that there will always be those who choose to propagate, even when faced with overwhelming reasons not to. It's basic human nature. In addition, as birthrates decrease, the incentives to have children inevitably increase. Barring some kind of world-wide apocalypse, we'll never ever have to worry about our populations being too low.

     Currently, those who worry most about declining birthrates do so with the potential for shifts in cultural demographics in mind. Every country in the world can very easily boost their populations, but many of them choose not to for reasons invariably linked to culture and race.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 10:28:40 am by kyndo »


Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2018, 10:36:06 am »
Quote
I'm actually kind of astounded that people have such strong opinions about this one way or the other.  :huh:
It is a fairly important subject - the future of the human race and all that.
    Don't be silly. The human race will go on regardless:

True, so why have a strong opinion about anything?
 


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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2018, 10:45:09 am »
Quote
I'm actually kind of astounded that people have such strong opinions about this one way or the other.  :huh:
It is a fairly important subject - the future of the human race and all that.
    Don't be silly. The human race will go on regardless:

True, so why have a strong opinion about anything? 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU

  :laugh:


   Well, I did modify that statement with "barring a word-wide apocalypse". As most bio students know, unchecked population growth is *always* followed by population crashes (ie a Malthusian catastrophe).
      And in the case of human being, that crash can involve events that could preclude human populations from ever recovering.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 10:54:49 am by kyndo »


  • sh9wntm
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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2018, 10:45:26 am »


   There's absolutely nothing wrong with having children so long as one has the means and the will to raise it properly. There is also nothing wrong with choosing to not have kids.

I think the financial means excuse is weak. The poorest countries produce much more children not because they have the means, but because they struggle each day already and rely on a strong family to make it in the world. They don't have time for vanity. Most people have the means, or could have the means with some financial responsibility. But they don't want to commit, be responsible, make things work with a partner, or struggle because its hard to raise kids.

It's not "bad" to not have kids, but it's not something you aspire for.


Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2018, 10:55:33 am »
Quote
I'm actually kind of astounded that people have such strong opinions about this one way or the other.  :huh:
It is a fairly important subject - the future of the human race and all that.
    Don't be silly. The human race will go on regardless:

True, so why have a strong opinion about anything? 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU

  :laugh:


   Well, I did modify that statement with "barring a word-wide apocalypse". As most bio students know, unchecked population growth is *always* followed by population crashes (ie a Malthusian catastrophe).
      And in the case of human being, that crash can involve events that could preclude human populations from ever recovering.

So are you astounded that governments of countries with super low birthrates, like korea, think it's an important subject?


  • kyndo
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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2018, 10:59:14 am »
I think the financial means excuse is weak. The poorest countries produce much more children not because they have the means, but because they struggle each day already and rely on a strong family to make it in the world. They don't have time for vanity. Most people have the means, or could have the means with some financial responsibility. But they don't want to commit, be responsible, make things work with a partner, or struggle because its hard to raise kids.
It's not "bad" to not have kids, but it's not something you aspire for.
   Those third world countries are poor, in part, because of unchecked population growth. There is a reason for the incredibly close correlation between GDP and reproductive rates, just as there is between income and family size in more developed countries. A child with many siblings is *statistically* more likely to be less well off later in life.  :undecided:
Most people have the means, or could have the means with some financial responsibility. But they don't want to commit, be responsible, make things work with a partner, or struggle because its hard to raise kids.
It's not "bad" to not have kids, but it's not something you aspire for.
Well sure, I don't disagree. But I do feel that the opposite is true as well: having kids isn't necessarily a good thing in itself either.
    Having a child is nice, but it's how that child is raised and the effect it'll have on the world that should determine whether it was worthwhile.


So are you astounded that governments of countries with super low birthrates, like korea, think it's an important subject?

Um... no? Where the heck are you getting that from?  :huh:

I'm astounded that individuals in first world countries do. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Whether or not Minju decides to have a baby shouldn't be the subject of any kind of moral judgement one way or the other. There's nothing inherently wrong with either.
      What's true for a society or population as a whole isn't necessarily true at the scale of the individual. Do I believe that the world could stand to have fewer people? Sure. Do I roll my eyes at every baby announcement on Facebook? Nope. Babies are cute!
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 11:10:36 am by kyndo »


Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2018, 11:28:31 am »
Quote
Quote from: eggieguffer on Today at 10:55:33 AM
So are you astounded that governments of countries with super low birthrates, like korea, think it's an important subject?

Um... no? Where the heck are you getting that from?  :huh:

I'm astounded that individuals in first world countries do. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Whether or not Minju decides to have a baby shouldn't be the subject of any kind of moral judgement one way or the other. There's nothing inherently wrong with either.
      What's true for a society or population as a whole isn't necessarily true at the scale of the individual. Do I believe that the world could stand to have fewer people? Sure. Do I roll my eyes at every baby announcement on Facebook? Nope. Babies are cute!
Last Edit: Today at 11:10:36 AM by kyndo

I find it strange that you can't connect crises in low birthrates in many developed countries and governments worrying about it, with individuals thinking it's an important topic. The only way for birthrates to increase is for individuals to have more babies.


Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2018, 11:39:49 am »
I screenshot and cropped this with all of my heart. Please enjoy:



  • Mister Tim
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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2018, 11:52:03 am »
The obvious solution is for the pro-children people to start having even more children, to pick up the slack for the people who wish to remain childless.

Better start humpin', all you folks with only one kid!


  • sh9wntm
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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #53 on: August 17, 2018, 12:20:22 pm »
I think the financial means excuse is weak. The poorest countries produce much more children not because they have the means, but because they struggle each day already and rely on a strong family to make it in the world. They don't have time for vanity. Most people have the means, or could have the means with some financial responsibility. But they don't want to commit, be responsible, make things work with a partner, or struggle because its hard to raise kids.
It's not "bad" to not have kids, but it's not something you aspire for.
   Those third world countries are poor, in part, because of unchecked population growth. There is a reason for the incredibly close correlation between GDP and reproductive rates, just as there is between income and family size in more developed countries. A child with many siblings is *statistically* more likely to be less well off later in life.  :undecided:
Most people have the means, or could have the means with some financial responsibility. But they don't want to commit, be responsible, make things work with a partner, or struggle because its hard to raise kids.
It's not "bad" to not have kids, but it's not something you aspire for.
Well sure, I don't disagree. But I do feel that the opposite is true as well: having kids isn't necessarily a good thing in itself either.
    Having a child is nice, but it's how that child is raised and the effect it'll have on the world that should determine whether it was worthwhile.

Population growth is strongly correlated to economic growth in stable countries with stable markets. Which logically makes sense with more people doing more things and more chances for someone to innovate. Countries like China, India, and Indonesia are producing a lot of children and their economic growth rate is much larger than the U.S. When the U.S. had the "baby boomers" it spurred much economic growth.

How a child is raised is obviously really important, but how much of that is financial, and how much of that is just having parents with good values and care? I think the real problem weak values and work ethic on the end of parents.




  • Kayos
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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2018, 12:32:26 pm »
People laugh, but robots.

Not at all! Just go to Google and type in the keywords "Japan Robots Care" and there will be oodles of hits about how robots are the future of elderly care, the potential saviour of the coming employment crisis etc etc.

For example, this.

FYI, I'd perfectly be fine with robots taking care of me, when/if I grow old. :p


  • kyndo
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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #55 on: August 17, 2018, 01:09:55 pm »
I find it strange that you can't connect crises in low birthrates in many developed countries and governments worrying about it, with individuals thinking it's an important topic. The only way for birthrates to increase is for individuals to have more babies.
Eggieguffer, what I'm trying to convey is that we're discussing two different things.
   I think it is possible to have one opinion about population change on a national or global level, but to have a very different opinion when it comes to individuals.

 
The only way for birthrates to increase is for individuals to have more babies.
You don't say.  :laugh:

    But birthrates are only half the equation when it comes to maintaining a stable/growing population. Plenty of countries have low birthrates, but most of them compensate by accepting immigrants.



Population growth is strongly correlated to economic growth in stable countries with stable markets. Which logically makes sense with more people doing more things and more chances for someone to innovate. Countries like China, India, and Indonesia are producing a lot of children and their economic growth rate is much larger than the U.S. When the U.S. had the "baby boomers" it spurred much economic growth. 
Birthrates and population growth are two very different things.
   And the higher birthrates of the baby boomers doesn't even approach some of the birthrates you see in the sub-Sahara countries.

How a child is raised is obviously really important, but how much of that is financial, and how much of that is just having parents with good values and care? I think the real problem weak values and work ethic on the end of parents.
I totally agree.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 01:15:53 pm by kyndo »


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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #56 on: August 17, 2018, 01:11:11 pm »
Quote
I think anyone who would tell someone they are selfish for not having kids is in the running for the most ignorant person in human history.

People who say this are probably those who had kids and didn't like it. I'm sure there are quite a few of those around. People who have kids and find the experience rewarding don't see it as a burden to shoulder. They tend to annoy people in other ways by banging on about how wonderful it is.   

However,

Quote
I don't have kids because of three primary reasons: (1) I simply don't like kids. I don't like being around them and I don't like them being around me because at some point there will be whining and drama and I hate that (2) I wanted my life to be free. Free to do what I wanted when I wanted with no baggage holding me back

People like you in the west are fast becoming the norm, not the exception. If this continues we will have to accept our countries will change demographically and culturally. For many people this isn't an issue, or even a positive thing, though a recent survey about homosexuality in the UK found that attitudes were much less tolerant in the London area - due to the high Muslim population there. This is how European civilization will gradually change as a result of low birth rates in some demographics. .

My step family is like that a lot. My 2 step brothers have just recently had kids, and they keep asking me: "When do you think you'll have kids." I keep saying that I don't want kids, and it is mostly met with: "You say that now but ..." and they keep trying to convince me to have them haha.
They understand that I don't want kids, and they are okay with my choice, but they are still on the buzz of having their own children and all that.


Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #57 on: August 17, 2018, 01:29:58 pm »
The obvious solution is for the pro-children people to start having even more children, to pick up the slack for the people who wish to remain childless.

Better start humpin', all you folks with only one kid!

The obvious solution is for the pro-environment people to start taking more crap to the recycling dump to pick up the slack for the people who can't be arsed.


  • Mister Tim
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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #58 on: August 17, 2018, 01:41:39 pm »
The obvious solution is for the pro-children people to start having even more children, to pick up the slack for the people who wish to remain childless.

Better start humpin', all you folks with only one kid!

The obvious solution is for the pro-environment people to start taking more crap to the recycling dump to pick up the slack for the people who can't be arsed.

Now we're talking!


Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #59 on: August 17, 2018, 04:45:34 pm »
Another point for the new master race:

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/08/being-watched-cranky-robot-might-help-you-focus

Children: -1, Robots: ∞