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  • gogators!
  • The Legend

    • 3721

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
South Korea birth rate plunges to record low
« on: July 31, 2017, 09:41:22 am »
Quote
he growth of South Korea's population this year will be the slowest rate ever recorded, despite efforts to boost it, officials say.

About 360,000 babies will be born, leading to concern over the effect of an ageing population on the economy...South Korea has spent about $70bn (53bn) trying to boost the country's birth rate over the past decade, handing out baby bonuses, improving paternity leave and paying for infertility treatment.

If children are the future, SK's is not looking too bright.


  • CO2
  • The Legend

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    • Gunpo
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Re: South Korea birth rate plunges to record low
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2017, 09:49:18 am »
I've said it before and I'll say it again.

1. Let people go home at 6. Let them have a life.

2. Promote a more diverse workforce. ie. blue collar/construction jobs pay well and there's no shame in doing them. If I have a kid, I don't want to spend a third of my paycheque on hakwon just so my kid has a level playing field

The joys of fauxtherhood


  • pkjh
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1542

    • May 02, 2012, 02:59:44 pm
Re: South Korea birth rate plunges to record low
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2017, 11:48:41 am »
I've said it before and I'll say it again.

1. Let people go home at 6. Let them have a life.

2. Promote a more diverse workforce. ie. blue collar/construction jobs pay well and there's no shame in doing them. If I have a kid, I don't want to spend a third of my paycheque on hakwon just so my kid has a level playing field
Also, encourage most to stay put in their home regions, to relieve the population pressure on the Seoul area.


  • macteacher
  • Expert Waygook

    • 679

    • September 03, 2012, 09:59:00 am
    • south korea
Re: South Korea birth rate plunges to record low
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2017, 12:43:49 pm »

I really wonder what will be the thing that will help increase birthrate here. Probably working less and giving more freedom to women. What will ease that though? From my experience working here and from my korean friends, it seems like there needs to some empathy and trust to be built in. Let your workers go home before you, even if you're a boss. You get paid more so you should be the one carrying the biggest burden. They likely have younger kids which require more attention. Also better trust, I feel like at my schools and hearing stories from my friends companies, there's a lot built in micro-managing and just general assumption that people will put in less effort. So, there's just a lot of time cross checking and endless meetings.

The whole required military service seems to keep old attitudes alive and also builds in resentment towards women. My students and most of the adult men I talk to here, seem to think that women have it made. Instead of say, looking at the positive and negative aspects of each gender.


Re: South Korea birth rate plunges to record low
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2017, 01:17:41 pm »
I really wonder what will be the thing that will help increase birthrate here

I don't think giving people more time off work to have sex is going to make any difference. Think about how many people on here say they never want to have kids or get married. then compare it with 30 years ago when 90+% would have said that's what they wanted. Why don't people want it now? They have other priorities. Holidays, freedom from debt and responsibility, the possibility of buying a house etc.. Having a kid = major sacrifices in many areas
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 01:19:52 pm by eggieguffer »


  • Epistemology
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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    • September 19, 2010, 01:57:27 pm
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Re: South Korea birth rate plunges to record low
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2017, 01:33:06 pm »
It will keep falling because they refuse to recognize the cultural reasons behind why its falling:

Companies still throw pregnant female workers to the dogs instead of offering maternity leave

Womens rights in Korea just plain suck in general and crybaby Korean millennial men piss and whine about the slightest attempt to better the situation of female workers by complaining of how badly men are oppressed in one of the most male dominated countries on the planet outside of the middle east.

Workers, both male and female get very little free time to have a social life and raise kids. Those that do have kids end up throwing the kids into super expensive hagwons to babysit until they finish work at 9pm/10pm/whenever the gaejosshi boss leaves (be it 1am or 2am)

Mandatory vacation time often goes unused among younger workers, despite supposedly being mandatory because angry butthurt gaejosshi boss who takes 10 golf trips to the Philippines a year will find a reason to fire them if they dare take a 3 day trip mid week to Jeju-do.

The cost of private education and the poor quality of public school education forces you to invest most of your money into your first born, leaving almost nothing for a 2nd or 3rd kid.

the mandatory and rather brutal military service for male children when they come of age makes millennial Koreans who went through it have a strong preference for daughters, or no children while they continue to live in Korea.

Less people are getting married due to the skyrocketing financial cost, while the middle class is collapsing making marriage under current cultural expectations a pipe dream for most.

헬조선

Theres probably a ton more reasons. those were just off the top of my head. Korea is really screwing its future by sticking rigidly to dogma.


Edit: some more.

Plenty of girls refuse to get into relationships these days because they fear that the guy they date will turn out to be one of those psycho stalker types that will refuse point blank to allow them to break up. They are becoming a heck of a lot more common - Korea needs to recognize it has a mental health epidemic on its hands with its young people

Adultery. Why even get into a relationship with someone if theres a good chance that that person is going to have a side girl or guy. Theres little trust between men and women here. No trust = no relationships=no kids.



« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 01:36:40 pm by Epistemology »
Away an bile yer heid ya numpty,ye dinnae ken whit yer talkin aboot.


  • Pecan
  • The Legend

    • 3769

    • December 27, 2010, 09:14:44 am
    • Seoul
Re: South Korea birth rate plunges to record low
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2017, 01:33:53 pm »
Laughable "policy" that these Korean political wonks have created...provide some cash?

It is not "an accident" that people are choosing not to marry, nor to have children.

These are deliberate, well-thoughtout choices that have developed over time.

How anyone would believe that throwing money at the issue would actually solve it is truly bizarre.
 



  • gogators!
  • The Legend

    • 3721

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: South Korea birth rate plunges to record low
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2017, 01:50:19 pm »
Laughable "policy" that these Korean political wonks have created...provide some cash?

It is not "an accident" that people are choosing not to marry, nor to have children.

These are deliberate, well-thoughtout choices that have developed over time.

How anyone would believe that throwing money at the issue would actually solve it is truly bizarre.
Can you reconcile your posts stating Park opposition = mob rule with deciding not to have kids = "well thought out choices that have developed over time"?

Since money is the issue for many, if not most, regarding having more children, "throwing money" at it to relieve some of the burden, as well as to fund programs promoting having more children, is not "truly bizarre."

As for the strong preference for girls stated in a post above, I've been told that girls are better because they will take care of you when you're older.


  • gogators!
  • The Legend

    • 3721

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: South Korea birth rate plunges to record low
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2017, 03:21:39 pm »
I can't say for sure, but some things single Koreans have said to me about their outlook on marriage/children have to do with how it's treated like a grim business arrangement. Plus all of the cultural baggage that goes along with getting married weighs on them.

Korean men, taught to love nothing but the soju bottle since young adulthood, fear only being allowed to drink with co-workers and having to *gasp* actually spend time with family instead of getting hammered with friends. They are truly under the impression that women rule Korea, because mothers want their children to have present fathers (and womens only parking spaces exist in some places, gasp!) instead of looking at how their bosses and companies exploit their health, their bodies, their time and their money. They defend their abusive bosses and blame their wives. Women fear hateful and controlling mother-in-laws whose cultural duty it is to make their lives miserable, making sure they never step too far from the kitchen. It becomes their only value.

 I have heard from a lot of people that most marriages (especially later in life marriages) are more arranged by family or matchmakers. They look at things like income, education, and how much money their parents make. I'm not saying a person shouldn't look at these things, but actual attraction and compatibility seems to be pretty low on the list. Koreans spend so much time and effort on getting into the right school, getting the right job, and basically applying for the right spouse... after all that would you really want to go and add a kid to the mix? Then you just have to worry about them doing all the "right" things. It's like this never ending cycle of always trying to out-do everyone and fulfill your duties without ever getting a break to be happy with yourself and what you have.

If business arrangement marriages entered into out of a feeling of obligation and not an actual desire to start a family, then the children born from those marriages would just be another check on the "to-do list" of life. Another horse in the race to be the best.

But for what it's worth, a lot of the young women I know are marriage crazy. They want to keep leveling up to get the best husband whether or not they actually like him as a person. And I've met wealthy men who have no problem flashing their money around. There are cram school adverts that explicitly state the more you study, the more you can upgrade your wife's looks.  Maybe these types of people wouldn't have a problem having a kid just to throw into the race.
Good points, but it's the kid(s) that give them something in common, something to talk about and more while they get to know each other as people and not as "specs."


Re: South Korea birth rate plunges to record low
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2017, 04:37:25 pm »
Why is low birth rate bad, again? I know, it leads to a slower economy and there are less 영은s to pick up the entitlements tab, and of course something needs to be done if there are couples out there who *want* children but feel for whatever reason that's out of their reach, but long term, maybe it would be a good thing for Korea's population to hover around 25 million. Imagine not have to queue on a hiking trail...  :shocked:

Of course, assuming current trends continue, the Korean race faces EXTINCTION!!! :huh:


  • macteacher
  • Expert Waygook

    • 679

    • September 03, 2012, 09:59:00 am
    • south korea
Re: South Korea birth rate plunges to record low
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2017, 04:55:53 pm »
I can't say for sure, but some things single Koreans have said to me about their outlook on marriage/children have to do with how it's treated like a grim business arrangement. Plus all of the cultural baggage that goes along with getting married weighs on them.

Korean men, taught to love nothing but the soju bottle since young adulthood, fear only being allowed to drink with co-workers and having to *gasp* actually spend time with family instead of getting hammered with friends. They are truly under the impression that women rule Korea, because mothers want their children to have present fathers (and womens only parking spaces exist in some places, gasp!) instead of looking at how their bosses and companies exploit their health, their bodies, their time and their money. They defend their abusive bosses and blame their wives. Women fear hateful and controlling mother-in-laws whose cultural duty it is to make their lives miserable, making sure they never step too far from the kitchen. It becomes their only value.

 I have heard from a lot of people that most marriages (especially later in life marriages) are more arranged by family or matchmakers. They look at things like income, education, and how much money their parents make. I'm not saying a person shouldn't look at these things, but actual attraction and compatibility seems to be pretty low on the list. Koreans spend so much time and effort on getting into the right school, getting the right job, and basically applying for the right spouse... after all that would you really want to go and add a kid to the mix? Then you just have to worry about them doing all the "right" things. It's like this never ending cycle of always trying to out-do everyone and fulfill your duties without ever getting a break to be happy with yourself and what you have.

If business arrangement marriages entered into out of a feeling of obligation and not an actual desire to start a family, then the children born from those marriages would just be another check on the "to-do list" of life. Another horse in the race to be the best.

But for what it's worth, a lot of the young women I know are marriage crazy. They want to keep leveling up to get the best husband whether or not they actually like him as a person. And I've met wealthy men who have no problem flashing their money around. There are cram school adverts that explicitly state the more you study, the more you can upgrade your wife's looks.  Maybe these types of people wouldn't have a problem having a kid just to throw into the race.

i do think maybe the country could use some 'happy family' public service education. i know my korean friends love their families, but man do they never actually want to spend time with them. they seem so annoyed by the obligation at holidays and having to listen to their aunts nag on their looks or choice of work. most of friends and siblings back home have been eager to start families, and I think a lot of it has to do with growing up with happy and supportive households. when you have that experience, you want to pass it on.

also give kids a happy childhood. right now, the kids i teach in camp have said that they are happy to be away from their over bearing moms or miserable cause they feel controlled (not all obviously). I don't blame people for not wanting to have kids when they have a bad experiences growing up.


  • Pecan
  • The Legend

    • 3769

    • December 27, 2010, 09:14:44 am
    • Seoul
Re: South Korea birth rate plunges to record low
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2017, 05:38:05 pm »
Statistics tell a story in Korea.

On average, 4,000 abortions are performed DAILY (rough 1.5 million "new" Koreans are "aborted" each year)!

On average, 40 Koreans are successful at committing suicide, while
Quote
One out of 1,136 who experienced suicidal ideas and one out of 46 who attempted suicide succeed

Pause.  It's painful, but read the above again.

That means that on average 45,440 Koreans think about suicide daily (16,585,600 each year...totaling almost 1/3 of the population).  More alarming, 1,840 Koreans attempt suicide DAILY, with a little over 2% of them being successful!

Some may say "we aren't having children, because we can't afford it", but according to the mental healthcare professionals, this is being used merely as an excuse.

People who want to have children and are able, have children.

If the wonks really wanted to improve things, wouldn't they address the abortion epidemic and the mental healthcare crisis?

Again, 100,000 to 200,000 KRW is NOT going to suddenly change the reality of life here (this is an aside, yet relevant point: Korea used to be a major baby-exporting country, but only 11% of those that "exported" their babies claimed it was due to financial burden).

Security, hope, optimism, happiness, a positive outlook, contentment, etc. are the pressing issues.

Look at Lithuania, if you are having trouble understanding the Korean condition.

People are really suffering here.

Donovan,  are you kidding?

In a capitalistic system, expansion is necessary and population has a role to play.  If you invert the population pyramid, the system will unravel.

That said, I agree with you about less people.  An extinction-level event would be nice.


Re: South Korea birth rate plunges to record low
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2017, 06:06:01 pm »
Pecan,


No, I am not kidding.

Pecan,


You basically repeated my points as your own and *still* asked me if I was kidding. (Altough we do differ on the extinction point. I was kidding there. You weren't.)

Pecan,


Are you kidding?

Funny that the capitalist system that requires constant population growth is the very same system that is causing family-building to be a pipe dream for a lot of people~

Quote
i do think maybe the country could use some 'happy family' public service education.

That's what "아빠! 어디가?" is for! But unfortunately the message I get from that show is "Fatherhood isn't changing diapers or helping children through temper tantrums. It's taking your cute little tyke to the waterpark while they act all adorable-like." I know the former wouldn't make for very good television, but without depicting that side of things, moms are still going to be stuck doing the hard stuff alone.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 06:20:00 pm by donovan »


  • Pecan
  • The Legend

    • 3769

    • December 27, 2010, 09:14:44 am
    • Seoul
Re: South Korea birth rate plunges to record low
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2017, 06:20:45 pm »
Family-building?

The family structure used to be the most efficient way to produce and indoctrinate future laborers/consumers.

Now that the vast majority of people are becoming less and less necessary due to technology, the writing is on the wall.



Re: South Korea birth rate plunges to record low
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2017, 06:42:38 pm »
Quote

That's what "아빠! 어디가?"   the Korean TV show 'Dad where are we going' is for! But unfortunately the message I get from that show is "Fatherhood isn't changing diapers or helping children through temper tantrums. It's taking your cute little tyke to the waterpark while they act all adorable-like." I know the former wouldn't make for very good television, but without depicting that side of things, moms are still going to be stuck doing the hard stuff alone.




Fixed it for you. It's quite easy to avoid being exclusive.


Re: South Korea birth rate plunges to record low
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2017, 06:46:16 pm »
eggieguffer,

Are you kidding?

I'm going for 뉴앙스.

I like the reference though^^
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 06:57:37 pm by donovan »


Re: South Korea birth rate plunges to record low
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2017, 06:54:31 pm »
eggieguffer,

Are you kidding?

I'm going for 누안스.

I like the reference though^^

Not everyone on these boards understands Korean or watches Korean TV. No need to leave them out of the dialogue.


Re: South Korea birth rate plunges to record low
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2017, 07:05:03 pm »
I mentioned that it was a show. If "they" haven't heard of it or watched it, "they" probably can't say much about it whether the show name is translated into English or not. And if "all those people who feel excluded by my post" don't know the Korean words for 'dad', 'where', or 'go', this might be a good introductory lesson for "them". "They" can still try though, as I'm sure my point still got across. Should the folks in the Trump thread stop making references to 존 에프 켈리? Likewise exclusive.  And who is this damn Steel Rails everybody keeps talking about? Stop!
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 07:22:27 pm by donovan »


  • CO2
  • The Legend

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    • Gunpo
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Re: South Korea birth rate plunges to record low
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2017, 07:22:07 pm »
And who is this damn Steel Rails everybody keeps talking about? Stop!

Steel Rails <----------------------spectrum--------------------->Camden
The joys of fauxtherhood


Re: South Korea birth rate plunges to record low
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2017, 07:27:05 pm »
I mentioned that it was a show. If "they" haven't heard of it or watched it, "they" probably can't say much about it whether the show name is translated into English or not. And if "all those people who feel excluded by my post" don't know the Korean words for 'dad', 'where', or 'go', this might be a good introductory lesson for "them". "They" can still try though, as I'm sure my point still got across. Should the folks in the Trump thread stop making references to 존 에프 켈리? Likewise exclusive.  And who is this damn Steel Rails everybody keeps talking about? Stop!

I don't get why it's necessary. What's the point of writing anything in hangul here? It doesn't make a post any better or clearer. It just seems like an aimless affectation. Quite prepared to concede its use, however, if you can provide one.