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  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 4613

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Fact/Opinion
« on: June 05, 2017, 11:24:27 am »
Moving this discussion here because I don't want to further derail the ForEx thread:

I see a lot of opinions presented as facts these days.

The example statement was (paraphrased):

Depositing a cashier's check via photo-deposit is ______ than an international wire transfer.

There are several words you can put in the blank.

1) Less costly = fact. You can measure it, and A < B.
2) Safer = opinion, because it is based on your trust of the various banks and IT systems involved.  If you have actuarial data to share on loss rates, I will change my mind.
3) Better = opinion, because this might involve non-measurable aspects, such as convenience, familiarity with technology, etc.






« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 11:59:27 am by JNM »


  • Pecan
  • The Legend

    • 3769

    • December 27, 2010, 09:14:44 am
    • Seoul
Re: Fact/Opinion
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2017, 12:35:18 pm »
JNM,

I'm curious what part of my post you think is my opinion?

I only see facts listed, so I don't get your beef.

Care to explain?
Quote
Broken record here, as I've repeatedly posted about how to be able to avoid these fees, get the best rates, and have your money available immediately for those remitting funds from the Republic of Korea to the United States.

Purchase a  "송금수표", which translates as a "remittance check" , but is actually a bank check, sometimes referred to as a cashier's check.

A bank check is guaranteed by the bank, meaning the funds are available, compared to the uncertainty of a personal check that could be NSF, so there is "zero" risk to the receiving bank/financial institution.

The fee to purchase/receive a "bank check" (송금수표) is a flat rate of 10,000, plus you receive the benefit of the "preferred rate" of exchange (better than you will get with any other form of transfer/exchange).

The only "catch" to benefiting from all of the above is you will need to be banking with a bank that has joined the 21st century.  Meaning, one that allows free "mobile deposits" and has high deposit minimums ($10,000).

USAA is one example.

JNM is dead wrong regarding fees, as banks make money on manipulating the rates of exchange depending on your exchange method, as in cash, T/C, wire, etc., as well as, the fees taken out by the "Clearing House Network"


  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 4613

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: Fact/Opinion
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2017, 12:45:23 pm »
I said that I agreed with your opinion that it was the best way; you objected to my characterization of this as an opinion.

I inferred your opinion based on your statement that this issue has been settled.

Without an arbiter of record in this debate, that too is an opinion.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 02:10:58 pm by JNM »


  • Pecan
  • The Legend

    • 3769

    • December 27, 2010, 09:14:44 am
    • Seoul
Re: Fact/Opinion
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2017, 01:03:42 pm »
Thanks for clarifying your misunderstanding (numbers can confuse some people).

Yes, it was a statement of fact.  You will not find a lower rate, a less expensive means, or a faster method.

These can be factually checked and verified.



  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 4613

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: Fact/Opinion
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2017, 01:29:22 pm »
Thanks for clarifying your misunderstanding (numbers can confuse some people).

Yes, it was a statement of fact.  You will not find a lower rate, a less expensive means, or a faster method.

These can be factually checked and verified.
A lot of cheap shots at me today.

I was not confused by the numbers (there was only one figure listed; there was no need to whip out the slide rule), nor do I disagree with any of the measurable facts.

I am the first one to use the word "best", which is a good sign that it is an opinion.

It is the least costly and the fastest.  No argument on these facts. The non-hidden costs of a 4 million won wire transfer is about 35 000 won v. 10 000 for the cheque method. The hidden costs (in the exchange rates) make the spread larger.

In order to find out what is "best", one weighs that difference against convenience and trust, and those are going to be different depending on the person.

As I said before, I inferred that your "convenience and trust" factors do not offset the 25 000 fee difference, thus your OPINION that this was "best".

My mother, for example, does not use computers or smart phones. She would be much more than "25000 won uncomfortable" with the cheque/photo method, and would not mind paying that amount more for counter service at the bank.
 







  • Pecan
  • The Legend

    • 3769

    • December 27, 2010, 09:14:44 am
    • Seoul
Re: Fact/Opinion
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2017, 01:50:11 pm »
Huh?

Are saying that you were presenting opinion as fact?

My apologies, as I took your post as accusing me of passing off opinion as fact.

I took exception, as I did not and I am not.  I am dealing in facts.

Best rate is not opinion, it is the best rate of exchange.
Lowest fee is not an opinion, it is the lowest amount one will have to pay.
Fastest is not an opinion, either, as the funds appear in your account with the click of a button.

This method of exchange/transfer might not be the most convenient for some, but that doesn't change the facts.

This feels like such a bait, as I don't get you.

How do you get off saying there were only x,y,z for options, when it was factually incorrect and indefensible, and then turn it into this...?

Remind me to never get into a post with you again.



  • mrc45
  • Super Waygook

    • 257

    • April 19, 2015, 12:50:26 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Fact/Opinion
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2017, 01:59:58 pm »
Since the late 1960s, there has been a sharp growth in post-modernism, especially in academia. This theoretical school places focus on the subjective. In other words, it is the idea that an individual's "narrative" is true simply because he or she believes it to be. There are no actual facts or objective truth according to post-modernists. This conception has filtered through society to impact everyone. As a result, people now believe that if they have a conception, it is therefore correct, regardless if that thought can be disproven. Generally speaking, people view only the surface, and without trying to look at entire operations or the goings-on behind the scenes, make snap judgements. This lends itself to a very lazy way of thinking; Person 1 makes the assumption that because Person 2 says XYZ, it must be due to a specific factor only known to Person 1, but assumed to be known by everyone. For example, if Person 2 voted for Trump/Clinton, he must be a racist/SJW. The judgement is made using Person 1's own subjective knowledge, without asking Person 2.

There are also other issues. The Dunning-Kruger effect for example, could be at play, where a less intelligent person drastically overestimates his or her own intellectual abilities while underestimating others. The internet allows this sort of thing to flourish; no-one knows each other so who cares if you insult someone. That leads to the next point, society generally believes that debate involves shouting insults at one another until someone eventually gives up. At best, this is mere sophistry, going back to my original point about subjective vs. objective truth. For many people, it doesn't matter if they're objectively correct so long as they appear correct.

Also, getting into arguments with known trolls (there are only a handful of genuine trolls on this site) is never a good idea.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 02:02:37 pm by mrc45 »


  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 4613

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: Fact/Opinion
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2017, 02:07:17 pm »

This feels like such a bait, as I don't get you.

Not bait, just a discussion.
Quote
How do you get off saying there were only x,y,z for options, when it was factually incorrect and indefensible, and then turn it into this...?

Those are the three fee options when you do a wire transfer at the bank, and are completely unrelated to the discussion about photo deposits.

Quote
Remind me to never get into a post with you again.

If this is the way you argue with people who agree with you, I would hate to have a differing opinion.


Re: Fact/Opinion
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2017, 02:33:51 pm »
Hmmm...So this thread was a way for you two to start bickering. Joy... :undecided:


  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 4613

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: Fact/Opinion
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2017, 02:58:42 pm »
Since the late 1960s, there has been a sharp growth in post-modernism, especially in academia. This theoretical school places focus on the subjective. In other words, it is the idea that an individual's "narrative" is true simply because he or she believes it to be. There are no actual facts or objective truth according to post-modernists. This conception has filtered through society to impact everyone. As a result, people now believe that if they have a conception, it is therefore correct, regardless if that thought can be disproven. Generally speaking, people view only the surface, and without trying to look at entire operations or the goings-on behind the scenes, make snap judgements. This lends itself to a very lazy way of thinking; Person 1 makes the assumption that because Person 2 says XYZ, it must be due to a specific factor only known to Person 1, but assumed to be known by everyone. For example, if Person 2 voted for Trump/Clinton, he must be a racist/SJW. The judgement is made using Person 1's own subjective knowledge, without asking Person 2.

There are also other issues. The Dunning-Kruger effect for example, could be at play, where a less intelligent person drastically overestimates his or her own intellectual abilities while underestimating others. The internet allows this sort of thing to flourish; no-one knows each other so who cares if you insult someone. That leads to the next point, society generally believes that debate involves shouting insults at one another until someone eventually gives up. At best, this is mere sophistry, going back to my original point about subjective vs. objective truth. For many people, it doesn't matter if they're objectively correct so long as they appear correct.

Also, getting into arguments with known trolls (there are only a handful of genuine trolls on this site) is never a good idea.

This is really the type of discussion I wanted to have. 

Any other contributions?








  • mrc45
  • Super Waygook

    • 257

    • April 19, 2015, 12:50:26 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Fact/Opinion
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2017, 03:37:04 pm »
Since the late 1960s, there has been a sharp growth in post-modernism, especially in academia. This theoretical school places focus on the subjective. In other words, it is the idea that an individual's "narrative" is true simply because he or she believes it to be. There are no actual facts or objective truth according to post-modernists. This conception has filtered through society to impact everyone. As a result, people now believe that if they have a conception, it is therefore correct, regardless if that thought can be disproven. Generally speaking, people view only the surface, and without trying to look at entire operations or the goings-on behind the scenes, make snap judgements. This lends itself to a very lazy way of thinking; Person 1 makes the assumption that because Person 2 says XYZ, it must be due to a specific factor only known to Person 1, but assumed to be known by everyone. For example, if Person 2 voted for Trump/Clinton, he must be a racist/SJW. The judgement is made using Person 1's own subjective knowledge, without asking Person 2.

There are also other issues. The Dunning-Kruger effect for example, could be at play, where a less intelligent person drastically overestimates his or her own intellectual abilities while underestimating others. The internet allows this sort of thing to flourish; no-one knows each other so who cares if you insult someone. That leads to the next point, society generally believes that debate involves shouting insults at one another until someone eventually gives up. At best, this is mere sophistry, going back to my original point about subjective vs. objective truth. For many people, it doesn't matter if they're objectively correct so long as they appear correct.

Also, getting into arguments with known trolls (there are only a handful of genuine trolls on this site) is never a good idea.

This is really the type of discussion I wanted to have. 

Any other contributions?

Yes. The Philadelphia Phillies, objectively, really suck this year and that's heartbreaking to me.