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Re: Student takeover of Evergreen State College
« Reply #80 on: June 01, 2017, 10:25:58 pm »
The problem with your mode of thought is you completely take the student protests as separate from a sequence of events of blatant discrimination that have taken place on that campus.

There are talks of students being detained by campus police for hours without reason, students being assaulted by campus police...but somehow when tensions boil over and shit hits the fan, it's the special snowflakes who are at fault for being angry about racism.

If the students' complains are true and grounded in fact, they have every right to complain and protest. However, there is a difference between the historical protests we've had in the past that had a clear straightforward message and the ones now which issue ludicrous demands and seem poorly thought out at best.

And I'm...skepical about some of the claims about the awful police. There is always two sides to every story, especially when the police are blamed if something happens and they DON'T act.

Maybe the cops should draft some of the protesters into the force and give them the demands, calls for safety, paperwork, and most importantly, the law enforcement responsibilities that the cops are given. Maybe then they'll see that it's a lot different.

As for the cops understanding the students, the cops are already treated like outsiders and objects of ridicule.


Re: Student takeover of Evergreen State College
« Reply #81 on: June 01, 2017, 10:37:50 pm »
Racists are obsessed with civility in 2017 for some reason? Like you can say the absolute most disgusting things in the world so long as it's in 9 paragraphs and you say 'furthermore' and talk about logic all the time.

Yup, that's why we support your right to come on here and post whatever. Case in point, me and a number of posters on here go round and round about Korea and racism, but I don't call for them being banned and they don't call for me being banned. They enjoy me too much as a punching bag and I enjoy having a good row. It's called having a civil debate.

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I don't care if I broke the rules of your debate club

I don't care either. I do care if you post stuff on here that is full of crap and I'll debate it and try and point out the truth. I still think you should be allowed to post utter horseshit.

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You're collectively a bad joke.

When your side is inventing feminist quantum physics while claiming to be the party of science, there's plenty of bad jokes to go around.

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doubt you ever say shit IRL anyway

Nice to see you admit to the violent tactics of the left and their repression of free speech.

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I only wish you'd get banned off of here

If your ideas are so strong, why ban us? I for one think people supporting the SJW crowd should be given a nice platform so all the world can hear their nonsense and then choose a different way.

Don't you see- we think the SJW-left's ideas as so patently absurd, and so obviously so, that we want you to say this stuff. This is the element of the left that makes Bernie Sanders look like Bob Dole in comparison.


  • Pecan
  • The Legend

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    • December 27, 2010, 09:14:44 am
    • Seoul
Re: Student takeover of Evergreen State College
« Reply #82 on: June 02, 2017, 12:09:10 am »
Where is the NAACP?  Where are the parents of these children?

One would think that they would get involved to help better guide these students.

They are allowed to "make the fool", but it damages all.

Demanding the President of the University pay for a "gumbo feed" and bullying him for talking with his hands sets legitimate organizations back decades.

I fear it is going to take one of these mobs getting out of control to the point where innocent human lives are lost before the authorities finally start making the hard choices (the easy one being to appease and allowing them to exhaust and extinguish themselves while trampling the rights of others).


  • waygo0k
  • The Legend

    • 3778

    • September 27, 2011, 11:51:01 am
    • Chungnam
Re: Student takeover of Evergreen State College
« Reply #83 on: June 02, 2017, 04:33:30 am »

If the students' complains are true and grounded in fact, they have every right to complain and protest. However, there is a difference between the historical protests we've had in the past that had a clear straightforward message and the ones now which issue ludicrous demands and seem poorly thought out at best.

And I'm...skepical about some of the claims about the awful police. There is always two sides to every story, especially when the police are blamed if something happens and they DON'T act.

Maybe the cops should draft some of the protesters into the force and give them the demands, calls for safety, paperwork, and most importantly, the law enforcement responsibilities that the cops are given. Maybe then they'll see that it's a lot different.

As for the cops understanding the students, the cops are already treated like outsiders and objects of ridicule.

Aaaand we're back to blaming the students for reacting to multiple incidents of racism on campus.

I have no reason to doubt the idea that non-white students have and continue to face discrimination on campus, and I have even fewer reasons to doubt that the professor feels the need to tell people how to react to the racism they face (surprise surprise!), plus his strong desire to tell the world about the "racism" HE faced when organisers of the university's annual event decided to flip the script.

Of course there are two sides to every story. A lot of people in this thread, and other similar threads, seem to always fall for the false and exaggerated aspects of these stories.

These protests are seldom random acts of senseless aggression, nor are they the result of a small misunderstanding as is the excuse we're always given...these protests are often the end point of months if not years of wilful and deliberate ignorance by university staff (and other students) in the treatment of minorities on campus, coupled with the metaphorical *shoulder shrug* when these treatments are complained about.



  • andyman73
  • Adventurer

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    • April 29, 2011, 09:20:30 am
    • Hwaseong City
Re: Student takeover of Evergreen State College
« Reply #84 on: June 02, 2017, 07:26:36 am »
well said. there seems to be hype on both sides. I hadn't heard about the unresolved incidents of discrimination before this event. thank you!


  • scpru
  • Veteran

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    • October 03, 2016, 09:46:41 am
    • Samcheonpo
Re: Student takeover of Evergreen State College
« Reply #85 on: June 02, 2017, 07:44:23 am »
You sound like the girl who went to the comedy club and wouldn't stop talking during each comic's set.

Why come to the show?

To ruin the experience of others?

When asked to kindly take it elsewhere, you started shouting like that baboon and threw your poop at us.

Why?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_L4sYJvfo_M

F O R
S U C H
A
L I B E R T A R I A N
I T
S U R E
S O U N D S
L I K E
Y O U
N E E D
A

S A F E
S P A C E


You're embarrassing yourself.

If your aim is only to make someone angry because it means "you won" or something, by all means, continue being a movie-stereotype-level caricature of a child throwing a tantrum.

But if you want to change someone's mind, give an intellectual argument. That's not "debate club" rules. That's just how you walk away from something with your dignity intact, and maybe even respect from the other side, if they're not overly stubborn.


Re: Student takeover of Evergreen State College
« Reply #86 on: June 02, 2017, 07:53:26 am »
I don't want to change their minds, or yours


  • Pecan
  • The Legend

    • 3769

    • December 27, 2010, 09:14:44 am
    • Seoul
Re: Student takeover of Evergreen State College
« Reply #87 on: June 02, 2017, 07:55:13 am »
How many employers would seek to hire any of those students?

Bright future, indeed.


Re: Student takeover of Evergreen State College
« Reply #88 on: June 02, 2017, 07:57:38 am »
Why does a small liberal-arts college even have campus police at all? America's weird.


  • scpru
  • Veteran

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    • October 03, 2016, 09:46:41 am
    • Samcheonpo
Re: Student takeover of Evergreen State College
« Reply #89 on: June 02, 2017, 08:00:04 am »
I don't want to change their minds, or yours

Caricature it is, then.



  • Teemowork
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    • South Korea
Re: Student takeover of Evergreen State College
« Reply #90 on: June 02, 2017, 09:02:02 am »
I have no reason to doubt the idea that non-white students have and continue to face discrimination on campus, and I have even fewer reasons to doubt that the professor feels the need to tell people how to react to the racism they face (surprise surprise!), plus his strong desire to tell the world about the "racism" HE faced when organisers of the university's annual event decided to flip the script.

But isn't that why we should have a full and detailed investigation to see if any of the students claims of discrimination are true?  We can't rely only on the "he said" or "she said" ordeal.

You are basically just jumping the gun here and saying just because someone is non-white, there's no reason to doubt them, and that no one could be making shit up at all, or misinterpreting certain things as discrimination.  For all we know, a non-white student could have felt they studied super hard on some exam, then when they got back their results showing a lower score than they expected, even if there was zero proof of discrimination at the time, they might claim discrimination as their default reason for the low score.

It's suppose to be innocent until proven guilty.  That's the system in place, and it's there for good reason.

You can't just be going "those kids probably got discriminated against, even though we didn't get a chance to do a full investigation yet to confirm".  That's the same as a federal judge watching a defendant come into the courtroom and thinking "that guy looks like he did the crime alright, but lets hear him/her out".  You are going into this with bias against the school instead of a neutral manner to search for the truth.  Basically, in the absence of reasonable proof, you defaulted to discrimination "must've" happened.  Do you think that's really fair?


Re: Student takeover of Evergreen State College
« Reply #91 on: June 02, 2017, 09:07:52 am »
Aaaand we're back to blaming the students for reacting to multiple incidents of racism on campus.
I have no reason to doubt the idea that non-white students have and continue to face discrimination on campus, and I have even fewer reasons to doubt that the professor feels the need to tell people how to react to the racism they face (surprise surprise!), plus his strong desire to tell the world about the "racism" HE faced when organisers of the university's annual event decided to flip the script.

While it is possible they face discrimination, I have to say that given their age and this being a small, left-leaning campus, that it is more than likely that their claims are exaggerated or are the product of overactive imaginations and the outrage of youth.

You state that many of the claims of "racism" by white people in America are greatly exaggerated and I'd agree to some extent. But if white people can exaggerate racism, often through individual cases of misunderstanding and the like, isn't it possible that some of these students did as well?

I was a minority and I went to college in the U.S. I encountered zero racism from the staff or faculty. There were the most minor of slip ups, but those were from students who one could clearly tell were just awkward and had no malice. Then of course there were the shit stirrers who all you had to do was give it back as good as you got it and next thing you know you're drinking beers together. Nothing that would cause me to start some sort of campus protest.

The thing is, these remind me not so much as marches for speech as Robespierre and the Reign of Terror. What starts out as reasonable demands soon moprhs into an inquisition in which increasingly wild charges are levied simply so the inquisition has people to go after because if they don't, they lose power and influence. If their demands are met, they'll just invent new ones.


  • Teemowork
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Re: Student takeover of Evergreen State College
« Reply #92 on: June 02, 2017, 09:14:59 am »
While it is possible they face discrimination, I have to say that given their age and this being a small, left-leaning campus, that it is more than likely that their claims are exaggerated or are the product of overactive imaginations and the outrage of youth.

You state that many of the claims of "racism" by white people in America are greatly exaggerated and I'd agree to some extent. But if white people can exaggerate racism, often through individual cases of misunderstanding and the like, isn't it possible that some of these students did as well?

I was a minority and I went to college in the U.S. I encountered zero racism from the staff or faculty. There were the most minor of slip ups, but those were from students who one could clearly tell were just awkward and had no malice. Then of course there were the shit stirrers who all you had to do was give it back as good as you got it and next thing you know you're drinking beers together. Nothing that would cause me to start some sort of campus protest.

Sounds pretty accurate.

Not everyone encounters racism just because they are non-white.  Depending on where you are from and interact with, there's tons of "white" people who are pretty chill.  Granted, you would seem like the exotic token ________ of the group, but obviously there's zero malice towards you if everyone's always hanging out together.


Re: Student takeover of Evergreen State College
« Reply #93 on: June 02, 2017, 09:15:48 am »
It's this 'listen and Believe' culture that scares me most about US campuses. They have mock courts with real power that can kick someone out simply on the testimony of another student. The idea of innocent until proven guilty is even more sacrosanct than freedom of speech in Western democracies IMO, but  nowadays in certain organizations, some people seem quite happy to give it up.


Re: Student takeover of Evergreen State College
« Reply #94 on: June 02, 2017, 09:21:13 am »
Innocent until proven guilty is fine. But if there isn't even an investigation, people have every right to protest.

Let's recap the story (the part people are referring to innocent until proven guilty): Cop allegedly beats up black kid who witnesses say wasn't even involved in any kind of incident. People accuse cop of racism and assault. University does nothing. People continue to complain. University does nothing. Another racially-charged issue pops up, making people angrier. University still doesn't investigate cop. Angry protest.

Why shouldn't people protest in a situation like that? The notion is absurd.


  • scpru
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    • October 03, 2016, 09:46:41 am
    • Samcheonpo
Re: Student takeover of Evergreen State College
« Reply #95 on: June 02, 2017, 09:30:46 am »
Aaaand we're back to blaming the students for reacting to multiple incidents of racism on campus.
I have no reason to doubt the idea that non-white students have and continue to face discrimination on campus, and I have even fewer reasons to doubt that the professor feels the need to tell people how to react to the racism they face (surprise surprise!), plus his strong desire to tell the world about the "racism" HE faced when organisers of the university's annual event decided to flip the script.

While it is possible they face discrimination, I have to say that given their age and this being a small, left-leaning campus, that it is more than likely that their claims are exaggerated or are the product of overactive imaginations and the outrage of youth.

Well... just remember that you're making a less-educated guess when you say that. Because even if you are basing your guess on some facts (student age, political climate of the campus), you don't have enough information to say for sure.

I agree with SaintsCanada. Innocent until proven guilty is incredibly important... but so is an investigation. And if the school truly isn't putting up a real effort to investigate, then I think the students have every reason to protest.

But the entitled way they do it does leave a sour taste in my mouth, too. "Because these assignments aren't gonna get done." So... there's no across-campus wifi for you to bring you laptop with you and do your assignments while you refuse to budge from the school president's office? Lol, ok. "When are you going to send out a notice to the faculty?" So that students NOT involved in the protest can claim they were just to get out of doing an assignment or two, and the professors can't disprove that claim easily, undermining their curriculum? Lol, ok. That's what I took the biggest issue with, honestly.


  • Teemowork
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Re: Student takeover of Evergreen State College
« Reply #96 on: June 02, 2017, 09:33:12 am »
Innocent until proven guilty is fine. But if there isn't even an investigation, people have every right to protest.

Let's recap the story (the part people are referring to innocent until proven guilty): Cop allegedly beats up black kid who witnesses say wasn't even involved in any kind of incident. People accuse cop of racism and assault. University does nothing. People continue to complain. University does nothing. Another racially-charged issue pops up, making people angrier. University still doesn't investigate cop. Angry protest.

Why shouldn't people protest in a situation like that? The notion is absurd.

Protesting is fine.

It's just watching the videos showing the composure of the students is what's getting me.  They are just yelling things left and right, and while the other side is trying to respond, they just get cut off instead.  Play that on repeat and that's like 90% of what you are seeing.

Then students seem to make ridiculous demands of how someone should buy them gumbo? or they shouldn't be having any homework? blah blah blah.  If you replaced the whole other side with just standing mannequins, it'd be exactly the same.  It's not even a real conversation anymore.

Surely, we can agree that there is a right way to protest, and then there's the way we are seeing.  Having a proper gathering with speakers and a list of points to be addressed, clearly explaining incidents of discrimination that students want investigated, proposing meaningful solutions to the issues students are facing, etc.  The protest just didn't look like it was planned out with a whole lot of thought.


Re: Student takeover of Evergreen State College
« Reply #97 on: June 02, 2017, 09:35:11 am »
recap the story (the part people are referring to innocent until proven guilty): Cop allegedly beats up black kid who witnesses say wasn't even involved in any kind of incident.

There are plenty of cases where the police have gone overboard.

There are also plenty of cases where people tried to throw down with a cop and end up getting tuned up. And eyewitnesses are unreliable. These things can sometimes take on a life of their own.

The sheer incoherence and lack of logic in their protest and demands makes me suspect that there isn't much substance to their claims.


Re: Student takeover of Evergreen State College
« Reply #98 on: June 02, 2017, 09:36:09 am »
Innocent until proven guilty is fine. But if there isn't even an investigation, people have every right to protest.

Let's recap the story (the part people are referring to innocent until proven guilty): Cop allegedly beats up black kid who witnesses say wasn't even involved in any kind of incident. People accuse cop of racism and assault. University does nothing. People continue to complain. University does nothing. Another racially-charged issue pops up, making people angrier. University still doesn't investigate cop. Angry protest.

Why shouldn't people protest in a situation like that? The notion is absurd.

I don't know what went on, but as with any incident, there'll be two sides of the story and you've only presented one. The other one would probably be: cop detains kid on suspicion, kid gets violent and has to be physically restrained, kid cries racism, university investigate claims and find they're unfounded, so don't do anything about it. University might not communicate that they looked into the incident properly, or students believe they didn't and start a protest.


Re: Student takeover of Evergreen State College
« Reply #99 on: June 02, 2017, 09:41:59 am »
There are 2 sides of the story, which is why I used the word allegedly, and called for an investigation, not a public hanging.

Innocent until proven guilty requires a genuine attempt to determine guilt or innocence.

You guys aren't making a whole lot of sense right now.