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Re: Female only teaching positions
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2017, 09:04:22 pm »
With my hagwon, I am the only male worker. Even the janitor is female. That means, before I got hired, my manager must have used the "female only" job postings. It can't just be by coincidence that my hagwon  is female dominated.
Every janitor of every school and apartment I was at in Korea had female cleaning staff...


Re: Female only teaching positions
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2017, 09:15:23 pm »
I wasn't "biased" per se, in the interview, but in the choice that was made, most definitely.

I considered their speech, their appearance, their mannerisms, their behavior/temperament, their word choice, etc. on top of the fundamentals and basic requirements.

That was the entire reason for the exercise, so as to find the "best" candidate for the position.

If you aren't going to discern and discriminate, why not simply take the first person that applies?

Asking a human being to not allow preference and past experience dictate their choice/actions is an exercise in futility.

The interviews I attended had tick boxes and other paper work that had to be filled in to justify the choice. There was no point in letting personal bias get in the way, as if the person who was hired turned out to be a dead loss, management were inclined to look back over the interview process to find out why he/she was hired.
Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense...

You have to tick a box?

Are you saying that the process is void of subjectivity?

If so, every individual on your "team" should have the same boxes ticked.

If not, then you are helping to make my point, in that each individual is going to construct a different answer based on the lens they bring to the process.

So according to you the process goes something like this.

Interviewer looks at paper work and sees question -  'how good an answer did the candidate give to the question about a recent lesson they taught? Very good, Good, Average, not very good etc... Ummm well the answer was 'very good' but since they're black/female/over50, overtly gay, I'll drop it down to 'average'. Is that the kind of thing you mean?

It's more trouble than it's worth. if the answer's good the path of least resistance is to give them a 'good'.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 09:18:52 pm by eggieguffer »


Re: Female only teaching positions
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2017, 09:16:13 pm »
Quote
Sorry, but I simply can't believe that to be true.

It is always considered.

How much, is debatable.

It may be considered but in my experience, not talked about. In a lot of UK companies these days you'd probably be reported to HR for bringing it up in a post interview discussion.
Of that, I have little doubt.

That said, are you denying that implicit bias/discrimination is not in play?  It is nuanced, but it certainly is alive and well, as is the "internalized" forms.

I prefer blatant forms of discrimination.

It just makes life much easier.
Also, it ties into how people want to fight against these so-called unconscious biases (ie not just against me having a bias I acknowledge but won't speak about but one that I don't even know I have).


  • Pecan
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Re: Female only teaching positions
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2017, 09:58:17 pm »
So according to you the process goes something like this.

Interviewer looks at paper work and sees question -  'how good an answer did the candidate give to the question about a recent lesson they taught? Very good, Good, Average, not very good etc... Ummm well the answer was 'very good' but since they're black/female/over50, overtly gay, I'll drop it down to 'average'. Is that the kind of thing you mean?

It's more trouble than it's worth. if the answer's good the path of least resistance is to give them a 'good'.
i don't know what more to add to make my point clearer to you.  My apologies.

I'm not familiar with your type of framework/structure with regard to the hiring process, as you sampled above.

Bottom line, open-ended questions can be answered in very subjective ways that will allow for any/all possible outcomes.

If all things were more or less "equal" regarding qualifications, other 'characteristics" and/or "intangibles" are considered.

If you have a predominantly male staff, you might be searching for a female for some gender balance, or the "token" minority, etc.

It doesn't need to be spoken or advertised, but it doesn't mean the process is "neutral" , far from it.


Re: Female only teaching positions
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2017, 12:13:29 am »
Let's say that the guy correctly answers every one of those official questions, but then before and after just chatting with him, he comes off as a complete jerk. You could say it's biased for someone to consider the pleasant person who wasn't as strong in the questions.

Or like a guy on here said he had weird complaints about a highly qualified teacher where the students said he'd just sit there holding his finger at one bald spot on his head. He thought it was a BS complaint. Then, he went and watched him and said that the guy's mannerisms came off as really creepy and they eventually let him go.

If I just went by a checkbox, the jerk and the weirdo would be perfect.


Re: Female only teaching positions
« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2017, 07:16:54 am »
Quote
Let's say that the guy correctly answers every one of those official questions, but then before and after just chatting with him, he comes off as a complete jerk. You could say it's biased for someone to consider the pleasant person who wasn't as strong in the questions

That's the reason for having more than one staff member at the interview process. they meet afterwards and both agree the guy behaved like a jerk. Otherwise it might just be one person's prejudice. If there's overall agreement I don't see this as discrimination.

Quote
Or like a guy on here said he had weird complaints about a highly qualified teacher where the students said he'd just sit there holding his finger at one bald spot on his head. He thought it was a BS complaint. Then, he went and watched him and said that the guy's mannerisms came off as really creepy and they eventually let him go.

This sounds like an odd case, wasn't it possible just to tell the guy what he was doing and stop it? Most of us have personal mannerisms we're not aware with in the classroom that others pick up on.  Perhaps there were other reasons to get rid of him.


  • KimDuHan
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Re: Female only teaching positions
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2017, 07:18:57 am »
With my hagwon, I am the only male worker. Even the janitor is female. That means, before I got hired, my manager must have used the "female only" job postings. It can't just be by coincidence that my hagwon  is female dominated.
Every janitor of every school and apartment I was at in Korea had female cleaning staff...

Yeah, especially public places have female janitors because they can clean both bathrooms men and female without any one batting an eye.

I wonder if these jobs advertise for women only though, it also seems that all the security workers are men too.

I'm sure though they don't hire only one sex though. Hagwons that actively hire one sex should lose their business licence.


  • Pecan
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Re: Female only teaching positions
« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2017, 08:23:16 am »
Should you be forced to shop or dine at one place?

We have the freedom to decide how we spend our disposable income, no?

Why should it be any different if one decides to use their money to open a business?


Re: Female only teaching positions
« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2017, 12:27:28 am »
That's the reason for having more than one staff member at the interview process. they meet afterwards and both agree the guy behaved like a jerk. Otherwise it might just be one person's prejudice. If there's overall agreement I don't see this as discrimination.

I was just referring to your statement that it's nothing more than a checkbox with no chance for subjectivity/bias. People agreeing with my bias doesn't make it not be a bias; it's just a commonly-held bias.

This sounds like an odd case, wasn't it possible just to tell the guy what he was doing and stop it? Most of us have personal mannerisms we're not aware with in the classroom that others pick up on.  Perhaps there were other reasons to get rid of him.
From what I recall, the guy said it was an accumulation of all of them and the fact that students were leaving because of it and him being unable to do anything to "stem the tide" so to speak.


Re: Female only teaching positions
« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2017, 07:33:05 am »
That's the reason for having more than one staff member at the interview process. they meet afterwards and both agree the guy behaved like a jerk. Otherwise it might just be one person's prejudice. If there's overall agreement I don't see this as discrimination.

I was just referring to your statement that it's nothing more than a checkbox with no chance for subjectivity/bias. People agreeing with my bias doesn't make it not be a bias; it's just a commonly-held bias.


The most effective way to choose someone for a job IMO is to be able to talk candidly to the manager at the place they worked at before. However this method was stopped because people complained it wasn't fair for everything to ride on one person's opinion, who could be biased, and everything had to be transparent. IE people didn't think it was fair that being crap in a previous job should in any way affect the process of applying for another job. So now we have a an hour long interviews and two people making the choice according to a system. Transparent, yes, effective, not as much and people still complain it's biased. I guess doing it all by computers might keep some people happy. It'd be the least effective but at least it wouldn't be biased   
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 07:44:57 am by eggieguffer »


  • L I
  • The Legend

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Re: Female only teaching positions
« Reply #70 on: February 17, 2017, 07:20:38 pm »
For the past four years, Jay Ahn has worked for a large recruiting firm, dealing with many of the large hagwon chains in Korea. He says most hagwons “pretty much demand North American, white-looking females, who are somewhat attractive.” If those requirements are met, often the hagwons won’t even ask for an interview. They will simply hand him a contract and say, “proceed.”

In the case of white males, he adds, a school will usually wait a few days, and then ask for an interview. If he sends an Asian or a black teacher’s resume, “most times they just ignore me.” He says hagwon directors twice questioned his abilities as a recruiter when he sent nonwhite teachers, asking “is this all you’ve got?” In one instance, Ahn sent a hagwon director a non-white teacher’s resume, and received no call back. Ahn then sent a white male’s name, and was told he would get a call back later. Then he sent a white female’s name and was called back in 30 minutes, with a request for an interview. It’s a common pattern, he says.

He says it’s the biggest hagwon chains that want the whitest teachers, because parents pay the most money to send their kids to those hagwons. While Ahn refuses to do so, he also says many recruiters will charge hagwons $1,300 for placing a white, North American female, but only $800 for a visible minority.


https://this.org/2015/11/20/need-not-apply/


Re: Female only teaching positions
« Reply #71 on: February 17, 2017, 08:28:18 pm »
For the past four years, Jay Ahn has worked for a large recruiting firm, dealing with many of the large hagwon chains in Korea. He says most hagwons “pretty much demand North American, white-looking females, who are somewhat attractive.” If those requirements are met, often the hagwons won’t even ask for an interview. They will simply hand him a contract and say, “proceed.”

In the case of white males, he adds, a school will usually wait a few days, and then ask for an interview. If he sends an Asian or a black teacher’s resume, “most times they just ignore me.” He says hagwon directors twice questioned his abilities as a recruiter when he sent nonwhite teachers, asking “is this all you’ve got?” In one instance, Ahn sent a hagwon director a non-white teacher’s resume, and received no call back. Ahn then sent a white male’s name, and was told he would get a call back later. Then he sent a white female’s name and was called back in 30 minutes, with a request for an interview. It’s a common pattern, he says.

He says it’s the biggest hagwon chains that want the whitest teachers, because parents pay the most money to send their kids to those hagwons. While Ahn refuses to do so, he also says many recruiters will charge hagwons $1,300 for placing a white, North American female, but only $800 for a visible minority.


https://this.org/2015/11/20/need-not-apply/

Written by someone who spent 8 years in the Korean hagwan business. I agree it's probably tough for minorities starting out in a largely appearance based market but there are ways to move on. I find nowadays the older, fatter and uglier I get the more money I make because at some point I climbed out of the quagmire described in the article.


  • JahMoo
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Re: Female only teaching positions
« Reply #72 on: February 20, 2017, 07:27:34 am »
I just saw an advertised position for a native teacher where the only qualification was "male teacher". That was a first for me (and kind of annoying as I am a female looking for employment).


Re: Female only teaching positions
« Reply #73 on: February 20, 2017, 08:27:26 am »
I just saw an advertised position for a native teacher where the only qualification was "male teacher". That was a first for me (and kind of annoying as I am a female looking for employment).

Well no need to get too annoyed since "women preferred" opportunities far outnumber what you have described.


  • JahMoo
  • Expert Waygook

    • 639

    • May 11, 2016, 12:55:18 pm
    • Gyeonggi-do, ROK
Re: Female only teaching positions
« Reply #74 on: February 20, 2017, 08:58:55 am »
I just saw an advertised position for a native teacher where the only qualification was "male teacher". That was a first for me (and kind of annoying as I am a female looking for employment).

Well no need to get too annoyed since "women preferred" opportunities far outnumber what you have described.

Oh for sure. But is this a step towards equality? Or further in the opposite direction?
Also I think I'm allowed to be super annoyed considering the majority of "female preferred" positions are actually for white women, so I've been disqualified there as well.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 09:08:20 am by Ajahya »


Re: Female only teaching positions
« Reply #75 on: February 20, 2017, 09:50:50 am »
With my hagwon, I am the only male worker. Even the janitor is female. That means, before I got hired, my manager must have used the "female only" job postings. It can't just be by coincidence that my hagwon  is female dominated.
Every janitor of every school and apartment I was at in Korea had female cleaning staff...

Yeah, especially public places have female janitors because they can clean both bathrooms men and female without any one batting an eye.

I wonder if these jobs advertise for women only though, it also seems that all the security workers are men too.

I'm sure though they don't hire only one sex though. Hagwons that actively hire one sex should lose their business licence.

I wonder if this place has any gender discriminative practices.  :wink:





  • CDW
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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Re: Female only teaching positions
« Reply #76 on: February 20, 2017, 11:50:10 am »
For the past four years, Jay Ahn has worked for a large recruiting firm, dealing with many of the large hagwon chains in Korea. He says most hagwons “pretty much demand North American, white-looking females, who are somewhat attractive.” If those requirements are met, often the hagwons won’t even ask for an interview. They will simply hand him a contract and say, “proceed.”

In the case of white males, he adds, a school will usually wait a few days, and then ask for an interview. If he sends an Asian or a black teacher’s resume, “most times they just ignore me.” He says hagwon directors twice questioned his abilities as a recruiter when he sent nonwhite teachers, asking “is this all you’ve got?” In one instance, Ahn sent a hagwon director a non-white teacher’s resume, and received no call back. Ahn then sent a white male’s name, and was told he would get a call back later. Then he sent a white female’s name and was called back in 30 minutes, with a request for an interview. It’s a common pattern, he says.

He says it’s the biggest hagwon chains that want the whitest teachers, because parents pay the most money to send their kids to those hagwons. While Ahn refuses to do so, he also says many recruiters will charge hagwons $1,300 for placing a white, North American female, but only $800 for a visible minority.


https://this.org/2015/11/20/need-not-apply/

Written by someone who spent 8 years in the Korean hagwan business. I agree it's probably tough for minorities starting out in a largely appearance based market but there are ways to move on. I find nowadays the older, fatter and uglier I get the more money I make because at some point I climbed out of the quagmire described in the article.
That can happen if you find work at a foreign owned school.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 3170

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Female only teaching positions
« Reply #77 on: February 21, 2017, 10:52:30 am »
In Korean universities in particular, teachers go into the class and do their own thing as separate entities.



[1:37]


Re: Female only teaching positions
« Reply #78 on: February 22, 2017, 11:38:50 am »
In Korean universities in particular, teachers go into the class and do their own thing as separate entities.



[1:37]

The university only decided the guy's age was an issue after they interviewed him? Like it wasn't written on his resume he sent beforehand or anything? That story doesn't really ring true.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 3170

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Female only teaching positions
« Reply #79 on: February 22, 2017, 12:08:29 pm »
The university only decided the guy's age was an issue after they interviewed him? Like it wasn't written on his resume he sent beforehand or anything? That story doesn't really ring true.

Not everyone puts their age on a resume. In fact, in the West, it would be highly inappropriate...so maybe they (or the one person making the final decision) first found out about his age through a passport copy or scan when he was submitting all the final documents. Maybe it was on the resume but not noticed initially. (I've heard complaints of resumes not being fully read or being read for the first time at the interview.) Or maybe it was something the uni person doing the hiring wasn't thrilled about but then at the last minute a better option (a female applicant) appeared. Sounds plausible to me. Haven't you experienced some wacky, illogical situations during the course of working here? I have. Others have. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss that story as fake.