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Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #3120 on: January 20, 2021, 11:20:38 am »
LMAO. That gets my vote for the most idiotic statement in this thread.
LMAO that you dont realize the same people who pushed Trump-Russia also gave us Iraq and lied under oath about spyng on the American people. But go ahead and tell me how Trump permanently damaged institutions...that are going to be the same again 2 months from now.


Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #3121 on: January 20, 2021, 11:33:13 am »
Ah yes, this argument that nobody made.

Donald Trump spent weeks lying about election fraud, filled his supporters with equal portions of bullshit and false hope, then encouraged them to march on the Capitol in support of a delusion. Eventually five people got killed and dozens more will be going to prison. Instead of acknowledging this, you've prioritized telling Waygook.org posters that our rhetorical skills are flawed.
Well, when you get more worked up by one than the other it does kind of indicate one's priorities. Again, this goes back to how people are acting on here- They're not acting like there really was an insurrection or serious threat. They're acting like people trying to score political points in internet debates.

Actions speak louder than words.

In defense of all of this, the election officials were horrible in their lack of transparency. There could have been a very public open audit, but the response was "Sit down, shut up, how dare you question politicians about their integrity? No, we're not going to be open because you people aren't worthy of that."

Pretty much the kind of response that would lead to something like this. If it was the other way around, the left would be just as perturbed. If you think they wouldn't be, you're kidding yourself.

That's not to say the results aren't legitmate, but they chose just about the least transparent way possible.

Saying elections cant have fraud is like saying ships can't sink. There's really nothing to back that statement up. Certainly it is unlikely, but you give people enough incentive...


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Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #3122 on: January 20, 2021, 11:41:18 am »
Some of the MAGA rats are jumping off the MAGA ship. One more day until normalcy resumes with an actual adult in the White House.


Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #3123 on: January 20, 2021, 12:15:22 pm »
Some of the MAGA rats are jumping off the MAGA ship. One more day until normalcy resumes with an actual adult in the White House.
I wonder if you'll notice how little substantive change takes place in your life after this.


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Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #3124 on: January 20, 2021, 12:54:21 pm »
Quote
Saying elections cant have fraud is like saying ships can't sink.

Uh huh, another thing that no one said.


Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #3125 on: January 20, 2021, 01:12:36 pm »
Uh huh, another thing that no one said.
Just the entire media and tech who declared any questioning to be "baseless conspiracy theories"


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Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #3126 on: January 20, 2021, 01:23:31 pm »
Quote
Saying elections cant have fraud is like saying ships can't sink.

Just the entire media and tech who declared any questioning to be "baseless conspiracy theories"

Rather than flooding the zone with more bullsh*t,  a quote from just one source  would help.   




« Last Edit: January 21, 2021, 03:37:57 am by Adel »


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Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #3127 on: January 20, 2021, 02:08:33 pm »
Yep, go on and give us one quote in which someone says that elections can't have fraud.

Or admit that you used a strawman, then shifted the goalposts.


Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #3128 on: January 20, 2021, 02:20:32 pm »
Seriously? Are you pretending the entire US media and tech industry didn't make state that questioning the results was a baseless conspiracy theory?

The problem is the left adopted an untenable position- "There's no way possible that there was electoral fraud and that anyone who has questions is a kooky conspiracy theorist"

This was the single worst way to handle this and basically guaranteed increased distrust. The correct response would have been "We believe in the integrity of the election system and we will be as transparent as possible and be as open and deliberate as we can and answer all your questions so that YOU have confidence in the result."

Seriously, I cannot think of a worse way to ensure confidence in your elections than the one you chose. If this was any other kind of vote on any other subject, people would be in unanimous agreement that the process was sketchy and the shutdown of questions and criticisms was heavy-handed and only exacerbated the problem.

Heck, if the exact same circumstances happened in another country, you wouldn't begrudge people for having questions.


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Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #3129 on: January 20, 2021, 02:27:10 pm »
Questioning is beneficial to the democratic system.
Making allegations without an iota of evidence is not.
*Continuing* to scream "fraud" without reasonable evidence even after examination is detrimental to the trust inherently needed in the election process of a truly democratic system

With this in mind, whoever is in charge of the modern, technical aspects of the American voting system messed up *big-time* by not making it 100% transparent. Have it so that anybody who wants to can audit the results. That would solve a lot of problems (and, naturally, probably create a whole bunch of new ones).
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 02:29:11 pm by Kyndo »


Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #3130 on: January 20, 2021, 02:51:23 pm »
Questioning is beneficial to the democratic system.
Making allegations without an iota of evidence is not.
*Continuing* to scream "fraud" without reasonable evidence even after examination is detrimental to the trust inherently needed in the election process of a truly democratic system

With this in mind, whoever is in charge of the modern, technical aspects of the American voting system messed up *big-time* by not making it 100% transparent. Have it so that anybody who wants to can audit the results. That would solve a lot of problems (and, naturally, probably create a whole bunch of new ones).
While the educated among us may see things and think there isn't any evidence, I get why the average Joe thinks there is.  And if anyone thinks it wouldn't have been the same way if things had gone the other way, I strongly disagree.

I think you hit the nail on the head about the lack of transparency- The entire system is the exact opposite of one that would provide any sort of confidence nothing went wrong.

Basically, it's like an entire building went up in flames and while there is no evidence of arson, the fact that you have one group of people denying there's arson, saying that arson is impossible, then denying other people a chance to look around and accusing them of being conspiracy theorists, well the situation could 100% not be arson, but sheer human nature means people won't trust them.

It doesn't help that you have people claiming Trump is a mortal threat to America. If that's true, then logically you'd have to assume that people would be willing to do extraordinary things to prevent him from gaining a second term, including voter fraud and risking imprisonment.

Furthermore, I have to say, that if I were in a position to potentially engage in voter fraud to prevent Trump from winning, I'd have A LOT of confidence that I would not be prosecuted if I did it under governmental or voter machine corporate auspices (not some rhamshackle operation driving around in a van and snatching ballots or writing in dead people or something like that). 


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Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #3131 on: January 20, 2021, 02:54:07 pm »
Questioning is beneficial to the democratic system.
Making allegations without an iota of evidence is not.
*Continuing* to scream "fraud" without reasonable evidence even after examination is detrimental to the trust inherently needed in the election process of a truly democratic system

With this in mind, whoever is in charge of the modern, technical aspects of the American voting system messed up *big-time* by not making it 100% transparent. Have it so that anybody who wants to can audit the results. That would solve a lot of problems (and, naturally, probably create a whole bunch of new ones).

Auditing is a costly and timely procedure.

Georgia re-counted and audited their results. The result was the same but the same people (see the broken MAGA follower above) would continually  shout fraud.


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Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #3132 on: January 20, 2021, 04:54:04 pm »
Quote
The problem is the left adopted an untenable position- "There's no way possible that there was electoral fraud and that anyone who has questions is a kooky conspiracy theorist"

I'm pretty confident that the problem with Trump's voter fraud claims can't be laid at the feet of "the left".

But here we are again - instead of the fact that the President of the United States signaled for months that he would not accept the results of the election if he lost, spread lies and conspiracy theories about electoral fraud before the election, then spent weeks falsely claiming that he won despite all evidence to the contrary, the real problem is the rhetorical style of people who raised objections to this behavior.


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Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #3133 on: January 20, 2021, 05:26:05 pm »
Quote
Basically, it's like an entire building went up in flames and while there is no evidence of arson, the fact that you have one group of people denying there's arson, saying that arson is impossible, then denying other people a chance to look around and accusing them of being conspiracy theorists, well the situation could 100% not be arson, but sheer human nature means people won't trust them.

No, it's like there is no evidence of arson, yet one group of people claims that a specific other group of people committed arson using magnifying glasses and sparklers, and they have proof of it in the form of seeing a guy near the building with a receipt from a fireworks stand. Then the fire department comes and determines that it was caused by a gas leak and cigarette, yet the first group insists that it was definitely arson, definitely committed by that other group of people, and done for insurance money. Then the insurance company takes the building owner to court 50 times and there's still no evidence of arson.  And then you come to the defense of the arson group by saying, "Hey, if there's no malfeasance here, then why's everyone so touchy about the arson question? I mean, if you were of a certain mindset, wouldn't you be tempted by that insurance money? I can think of a lot of people who would do it if they knew they could get away with it."


Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #3134 on: January 20, 2021, 05:45:29 pm »
Dear Waygook:
As a big fan of Presidential Libraries (for those who may not know, a former president is allowed an alowence for a presidential library), I wonder where and what will be involved. 
Here are some quotes I want to hear during the ribbon cutting ceremony by former President Trump:
1. I have a great library, I really do!
2. I could stand in the middle of my library and shoot somebody, and I wouldn’t lose any books.
3. You know, I’m, like, a library person.
4. When you’re an ex-president, they let you make a library.  You can do anything.  Grab the book by the bookshelf.
5. Nobody knows the library system better than me, which is why I alone can fix it.
Sincerely,
Me
PS. I am the only one who can make presidential libraries truly great again!


Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #3135 on: January 20, 2021, 06:58:03 pm »
I'm pretty confident that the problem with Trump's voter fraud claims can't be laid at the feet of "the left".

But here we are again - instead of the fact that the President of the United States signaled for months that he would not accept the results of the election if he lost, spread lies and conspiracy theories about electoral fraud before the election, then spent weeks falsely claiming that he won despite all evidence to the contrary, the real problem is the rhetorical style of people who raised objections to this behavior.
What exactly is the magical thing that makes it impossible for fraud to occur in U.S. elections that does not exist in other countries? It's not technology. Other countries use either antiquated methods like we do or electronic machines, like we do. It's not the people, as human beings anywhere can be corrupt. It's not the laws, as all countries have laws against fraud. It's not oversight, because the level of oversight we have is basically the same as places with dodgy elections.

What exactly is this magical thing that makes our elections so fraud proof? And why do you believe it to be so? Because talking heads told you so?

Basically it comes down to us and other countries being willing to prosecute people for such acts, and for people of the other party to be willing to do so and accept it. Nothing logistical or a system design, just that everyone agrees with this.

The problem is that if you remove that incentive, then mass fraud can take place. Here's the thing- Trump could well have removed that incentive to prosecute. Some Democrat county could blatantly dump 100k votes in broad daylight, and the powers that be wouldn't bat an eye or lift a finger.

In all fairness, Trump did bring this on himself by managing to piss off both sides of the aisle and the establishment.


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Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #3136 on: January 20, 2021, 07:24:23 pm »
LMAO that you dont realize the same people who pushed Trump-Russia also gave us Iraq and lied under oath about spyng on the American people. But go ahead and tell me how Trump permanently damaged institutions...that are going to be the same again 2 months from now.
A hollow drum makes a lot of noise.  Keep on banging it.


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Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #3137 on: January 20, 2021, 07:29:10 pm »
Well, when you get more worked up by one than the other it does kind of indicate one's priorities. Again, this goes back to how people are acting on here- They're not acting like there really was an insurrection or serious threat. They're acting like people trying to score political points in internet debates.

Actions speak louder than words.

In defense of all of this, the election officials were horrible in their lack of transparency. There could have been a very public open audit, but the response was "Sit down, shut up, how dare you question politicians about their integrity? No, we're not going to be open because you people aren't worthy of that."

Pretty much the kind of response that would lead to something like this. If it was the other way around, the left would be just as perturbed. If you think they wouldn't be, you're kidding yourself.

That's not to say the results aren't legitmate, but they chose just about the least transparent way possible.

Saying elections cant have fraud is like saying ships can't sink. There's really nothing to back that statement up. Certainly it is unlikely, but you give people enough incentive...
What exactly is the magical thing that makes it impossible for fraud to occur in U.S. elections that does not exist in other countries? It's not technology. Other countries use either antiquated methods like we do or electronic machines, like we do. It's not the people, as human beings anywhere can be corrupt. It's not the laws, as all countries have laws against fraud. It's not oversight, because the level of oversight we have is basically the same as places with dodgy elections.

What exactly is this magical thing that makes our elections so fraud proof? And why do you believe it to be so? Because talking heads told you so?

Basically it comes down to us and other countries being willing to prosecute people for such acts, and for people of the other party to be willing to do so and accept it. Nothing logistical or a system design, just that everyone agrees with this.

The problem is that if you remove that incentive, then mass fraud can take place. Here's the thing- Trump could well have removed that incentive to prosecute. Some Democrat county could blatantly dump 100k votes in broad daylight, and the powers that be wouldn't bat an eye or lift a finger.

In all fairness, Trump did bring this on himself by managing to piss off both sides of the aisle and the establishment.
What exactly is the magical thing that makes it impossible for fraud to occur in U.S. elections that does not exist in other countries? It's not technology. Other countries use either antiquated methods like we do or electronic machines, like we do. It's not the people, as human beings anywhere can be corrupt. It's not the laws, as all countries have laws against fraud. It's not oversight, because the level of oversight we have is basically the same as places with dodgy elections.

What exactly is this magical thing that makes our elections so fraud proof? And why do you believe it to be so? Because talking heads told you so?

Basically it comes down to us and other countries being willing to prosecute people for such acts, and for people of the other party to be willing to do so and accept it. Nothing logistical or a system design, just that everyone agrees with this.

The problem is that if you remove that incentive, then mass fraud can take place. Here's the thing- Trump could well have removed that incentive to prosecute. Some Democrat county could blatantly dump 100k votes in broad daylight, and the powers that be wouldn't bat an eye or lift a finger.

In all fairness, Trump did bring this on himself by managing to piss off both sides of the aisle and the establishment.
What actions would you like "people on here" to take? I was active in Biden's campaign an din getting out the vote in the GA special election, and one thing that motivated me was the growth of white supremacist militias.

How about a link to the quotation you used as part of your excuse for the Capitol riot?


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Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #3138 on: January 20, 2021, 07:33:23 pm »
Questioning is beneficial to the democratic system.
Making allegations without an iota of evidence is not.
*Continuing* to scream "fraud" without reasonable evidence even after examination is detrimental to the trust inherently needed in the election process of a truly democratic system

With this in mind, whoever is in charge of the modern, technical aspects of the American voting system messed up *big-time* by not making it 100% transparent. Have it so that anybody who wants to can audit the results. That would solve a lot of problems (and, naturally, probably create a whole bunch of new ones).
Who says you can't see the results of the audits? Here's Georgia's: https://sos.ga.gov/admin/uploads/county-summary-data.pdf


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Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #3139 on: January 20, 2021, 08:26:55 pm »
Quote
What exactly is the magical thing that makes it impossible for fraud to occur in U.S. elections that does not exist in other countries?

Absolutely nobody said this. You've yet to show an example to the contrary.

Quote
It's not the people, as human beings anywhere can be corrupt. It's not the laws, as all countries have laws against fraud. It's not oversight, because the level of oversight we have is basically the same as places with dodgy elections.

Absolutely nobody has argued otherwise.

Quote
What exactly is this magical thing that makes our elections so fraud proof?

Absolutely nobody said our elections are fraud-proof.

Quote
And why do you believe it to be so?

I don't.

Quote
Because talking heads told you so?

No.

Quote
The problem is that if you remove that incentive, then mass fraud can take place.

But did that happen? That's the only question that matters. The evidence overwhelmingly says no.

Quote
Here's the thing- Trump could well have removed that incentive to prosecute. Some Democrat county could blatantly dump 100k votes in broad daylight, and the powers that be wouldn't bat an eye or lift a finger.

Did that actually happen? The evidence overwhelmingly says no.

Quote
In all fairness, Trump did bring this on himself by managing to piss off both sides of the aisle and the establishment.

No, Trump brought this on himself by lying about winning the popular vote in 2016, spreading election fraud conspiracy theories throughout his time in office, claiming that the only way he could lose would be if the other side cheated, mounting frivolous no-hope lawsuits in an effort to sow doubt about the results of the 2020 election, pressuring the Georgia Secretary of State to tamper with results in that state, lying about a victory that was never his, and spreading falsehoods and misinformation on Twitter.

But I know... the real problem here is TDS, and the way it prevents otherwise rational people from conjuring a hypothetical situation in which these problems really aren't Trump's fault, but that of vague entities like "the left", "the media" and "the establishment". If only we could think more abstractly about it, rather than acknowledging the obvious facts staring us in the face.



« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 08:28:55 pm by fka »