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  • fka
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    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2720 on: October 01, 2019, 12:28:42 pm »
Do you think that in 2016 the DNC staged the hack of their servers, gave more than 44,000 e-mails to Wikileaks, then hid the physical server in the Ukraine and denied the FBI access to the appropriate forensic materials, all to frame Russia in advance of the elections?


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2721 on: October 01, 2019, 12:48:57 pm »
Judging by the fumbling responses of Warren and Harris and Joe Biden's "No comment", it's clear that the Dems don't have a consistent position on this. If you want an in your face example of cognitive dissonance, just watch their responses when asked whether Biden represented a serious problem.

At least a lefty like Bill Maher or those on the Gabbard-Greenwald wing of the party are consistent and can say that Biden was a serious problem. But the Dem establishment and some of their media lackeys can't do that, so they get caught.


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2722 on: October 01, 2019, 01:03:48 pm »
Do you think that in 2016 the DNC staged the hack of their servers, gave more than 44,000 e-mails to Wikileaks, then hid the physical server in the Ukraine and denied the FBI access to the appropriate forensic materials, all to frame Russia in advance of the elections?
I think the prevailing RW theory is that Seth Rich leaked the docs to wikileaks and that the DNC had the server investigated by Crowdstrike rather than the FBI. Russia was a convenient target because they (like the Chinese, the Israelis, and I'd assume the Saudis) will always have various election activities running at a background level. The political dirt and Russia angle that was just going to be a campaign smear morphed into a way to potentially get Trump out of office (essentially a soft coup).

It's also important to note that "Democrat" is not as important as "D.C. Establishment".

Anyways, the lefty theory requires you to believe that some Russian colonel decided to risk his career and possibly his life by suggesting to Putin that the best plan in the world was to partner with Donald Trump, a man known for his loyalty, intellect, composure, self-control, discipline, and acumen, to seize control of the presidency, or at the very least disrupt the process deep into the election year, and that this would best be accomplished with retweets by unverified twitter accounts, facebook ads featuring Trump high-fiving Jesus, and hacking Hillary's emails showing her yoga schedule and scheduling a dinner with some UAW head. All of this also requires the Russians to be able to predict that Trump would last that long and not flame out within a few weeks.

Does that sound like a plan anyone with a brain in Russia who has made it that far would risk their neck on? There are so many opportunities for it to fail and the methods to success are so preposterous. That's the kind of idea that gets someone dragged out of the office and into an alley and you hear gunshots a few seconds later.


  • Mr C
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1724

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2723 on: October 01, 2019, 02:46:27 pm »
Do you think that in 2016 the DNC staged the hack of their servers, gave more than 44,000 e-mails to Wikileaks, then hid the physical server in the Ukraine and denied the FBI access to the appropriate forensic materials, all to frame Russia in advance of the elections?
I think the prevailing RW theory is that Seth Rich leaked the docs to wikileaks and that the DNC had the server investigated by Crowdstrike rather than the FBI. Russia was a convenient target because they (like the Chinese, the Israelis, and I'd assume the Saudis) will always have various election activities running at a background level. The political dirt and Russia angle that was just going to be a campaign smear morphed into a way to potentially get Trump out of office (essentially a soft coup).

It's also important to note that "Democrat" is not as important as "D.C. Establishment".

Anyways, the lefty theory requires you to believe that some Russian colonel decided to risk his career and possibly his life by suggesting to Putin that the best plan in the world was to partner with Donald Trump, a man known for his loyalty, intellect, composure, self-control, discipline, and acumen, to seize control of the presidency, or at the very least disrupt the process deep into the election year, and that this would best be accomplished with retweets by unverified twitter accounts, facebook ads featuring Trump high-fiving Jesus, and hacking Hillary's emails showing her yoga schedule and scheduling a dinner with some UAW head. All of this also requires the Russians to be able to predict that Trump would last that long and not flame out within a few weeks.

Does that sound like a plan anyone with a brain in Russia who has made it that far would risk their neck on? There are so many opportunities for it to fail and the methods to success are so preposterous. That's the kind of idea that gets someone dragged out of the office and into an alley and you hear gunshots a few seconds later.
Yeah, that's pretty preposterous.  Sounds like the kind of ridiculous strawman that would be made up by DeMarti--oh, hang on, you're back!

Nevermind.


  • fka
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    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2724 on: October 01, 2019, 05:01:42 pm »
Yeah, I consume media from several points on the political spectrum and have never seen anything that even remotely resembles that caricature.


  • NorthStar
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2725 on: October 01, 2019, 07:38:18 pm »
Quote
Yeah, that's pretty preposterous.  Sounds like the kind of ridiculous strawman that would be made up by DeMarti--oh, hang on, you're back!

Nevermind

How is it preposterous?


  • Mr C
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1724

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2726 on: October 01, 2019, 11:39:48 pm »
Quote
Yeah, that's pretty preposterous.  Sounds like the kind of ridiculous strawman that would be made up by DeMarti--oh, hang on, you're back!

Nevermind

How is it preposterous?
Um, it's kind of like your inability to interact with the real world that exists?  Y'know, the real world in which the rest of us live which doesn't include bizarre conspiracy theories which have even been debunked by former Trumpists?  Like, preposterous like that, okay?

See, most reasonable, intelligent people, myself as an example, refuse to interact in a sensible way with the kind of total BS you posted earlier labeled "facts".  Which was pretty much an unhinged series of fact-free screeds you read at links from the bottom of the Drudge Report or somewhere.  Preposterous like that, okay?

Heck, it says quite a lot that the rubbish you post makes DMT seem almost sane and reasonable by comparison.  (Don't take this the wrong way, DMT, you're still aces at being wrong in my book!)

You have gotten two things right, though, NS:
1) You are not a scholar.
2) Giuliani needs to shut up.


  • gogators!
  • The Legend

    • 3776

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2727 on: October 01, 2019, 11:46:42 pm »
It is a well written piece in terms of prose and style...but....it is wrong in the fact that the Ukraine situation is not conspiracy theory.  And while words do matter, the article lacks the acknowledgement that Trump has never been a politician....he was a wealthy businessman who was used to not caring about the consequences of saying what is on his mind. 

Lots of people on this forum were never teachers yet are now expected to act professionally in that role.

You need to sign up for martini's c;lass in excuse making.


  • NorthStar
  • Expert Waygook

    • 737

    • July 05, 2017, 10:54:06 am
    • Mouseville
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2728 on: October 02, 2019, 06:46:57 am »
Quote
Yeah, that's pretty preposterous.  Sounds like the kind of ridiculous strawman that would be made up by DeMarti--oh, hang on, you're back!

Nevermind

How is it preposterous?
Um, it's kind of like your inability to interact with the real world that exists?  Y'know, the real world in which the rest of us live which doesn't include bizarre conspiracy theories which have even been debunked by former Trumpists?  Like, preposterous like that, okay?

See, most reasonable, intelligent people, myself as an example, refuse to interact in a sensible way with the kind of total BS you posted earlier labeled "facts".  Which was pretty much an unhinged series of fact-free screeds you read at links from the bottom of the Drudge Report or somewhere.  Preposterous like that, okay?

Heck, it says quite a lot that the rubbish you post makes DMT seem almost sane and reasonable by comparison.  (Don't take this the wrong way, DMT, you're still aces at being wrong in my book!)

You have gotten two things right, though, NS:
1) You are not a scholar.
2) Giuliani needs to shut up.

OK...prove those facts wrong if you are so convinced. 
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 06:49:56 am by NorthStar »


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2729 on: October 02, 2019, 08:09:36 am »
Yeah, that's pretty preposterous.  Sounds like the kind of ridiculous strawman that would be made up by DeMarti--oh, hang on, you're back!

Nevermind.

This is the amazing thing.  It's pretty simple to most people.  trump tried to get help in the 2016 election from Russia.  The Mueller report did not exonerate him of this in the least.  All he had to do was not do something like that again.  In July this year, he did it again.  And they're trying to cover it up and divert again with a thoroughly debunked 'fact'.  Do something once, and 'get away with it', phew!  Do the same thing again?  Jesus Christ.  You don't get to commit crimes to bring attention to what you 'think' are other crimes. 


  • gogators!
  • The Legend

    • 3776

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2730 on: October 02, 2019, 08:13:51 am »
Quote
Yeah, that's pretty preposterous.  Sounds like the kind of ridiculous strawman that would be made up by DeMarti--oh, hang on, you're back!

Nevermind

How is it preposterous?
Um, it's kind of like your inability to interact with the real world that exists?  Y'know, the real world in which the rest of us live which doesn't include bizarre conspiracy theories which have even been debunked by former Trumpists?  Like, preposterous like that, okay?

See, most reasonable, intelligent people, myself as an example, refuse to interact in a sensible way with the kind of total BS you posted earlier labeled "facts".  Which was pretty much an unhinged series of fact-free screeds you read at links from the bottom of the Drudge Report or somewhere.  Preposterous like that, okay?

Heck, it says quite a lot that the rubbish you post makes DMT seem almost sane and reasonable by comparison.  (Don't take this the wrong way, DMT, you're still aces at being wrong in my book!)

You have gotten two things right, though, NS:
1) You are not a scholar.
2) Giuliani needs to shut up.

OK...prove those facts wrong if you are so convinced. 
Facts 1 and 2 are right on the money.


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2731 on: October 02, 2019, 10:58:23 am »
Yeah, that's pretty preposterous.  Sounds like the kind of ridiculous strawman that would be made up by DeMarti--oh, hang on, you're back!

Nevermind.
That's just taking the more hysterical stuff from the left to its logical conclusion.

Now there are plenty of Trump critics who have made sober cases on Trump-Russia and acknowledge things like "Facebook ads probably didn't sway the election" and "Trump is more likely being used than in direct conspiracy" just as on the right there are people who dismiss the idea that Seth Rich was murdered and understand that the DNC probably used Crowdstrike not because there was anything illegal per se, but in a political campaign ANYTHING can be used to embarrass someone, even the most banal non-criminal stuff, and they were probably worried about it leaking.

Also, if one is worried about Trump's conduct on Biden and Ukraine and potential criminal conduct and things should at least be examined for potential violations, then one should agree that the same should be done for what was done to Trump in 2016. If you think only one was okay but not the other for the purposes of even a basic examination and questioning, then you are just a blind partisan.


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2732 on: October 02, 2019, 02:23:55 pm »
"Facebook ads probably didn't sway the election"

if facebooks ads didn't have an effect on the election then why did russia waste the resources?


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2733 on: October 02, 2019, 02:40:36 pm »
"Facebook ads probably didn't sway the election"

if facebooks ads didn't have an effect on the election then why did russia waste the resources?
Data mining and research.

Also, $2 million is a drop in the bucket for a government agency. That's pretty much play money. That's the equivalent of funding for one public school paying 40 staff $50k a year. Even if you factor that up by 10 it is still a paltry amount by government standards. $20 million buys one Russian attack helicopter. $2 million buys like, a couple missiles. How are $2 million in Russian ads more effective than Hillary's $1 billion spent on her campaign? Those must be the most powerful ads in the world. Strange that none of them went viral and no foreign companies are racing to hire Russian ad agencies. You'd figure if they were so effective, companies around the world would be doing that. Not to mention the fact that the few people that were receptive to those ads were those most inclined to already be strong Trump supporters and likely to vote.

The idea that $2 million in Russian facebook ads swung the election is so preposterous to anyone with a lick of common sense and a bare modicum of understanding of marketing and business.

For goodness sakes, that makes the right-wing crackpot nuttery about George Soros seem almost halfway-sane in comparison.


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2734 on: October 02, 2019, 02:47:52 pm »
"Facebook ads probably didn't sway the election"

if facebooks ads didn't have an effect on the election then why did russia waste the resources?
Data mining and research.

...

For goodness sakes, that makes the right-wing crackpot nuttery about George Soros seem almost halfway-sane in comparison.

I didn't suggest any of those things, so I'm not going to respond to them. At least, you'll admit that the ads did have an effect on the election? i don't think anyone thinks russian facebooks ads are the only reason trump won the election (as you're suggesting by comparing them to clinton's spending). the point is that the ads did have an effect, few conservatives seemed to care, and some actually welcomed it.


  • fka
  • Veteran

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    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2735 on: October 02, 2019, 05:55:23 pm »
Quote
How are $2 million in Russian ads more effective than Hillary's $1 billion spent on her campaign?

Where in the world did you get the idea that this is what anyone thinks?


  • Mr C
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1724

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2736 on: October 02, 2019, 07:29:22 pm »
Yeah, that's pretty preposterous.  Sounds like the kind of ridiculous strawman that would be made up by DeMarti--oh, hang on, you're back!

Nevermind.
That's just taking the more hysterical stuff from the left to its logical conclusion.
"STRAWMAN: Substituting a person’s actual position or argument with a distorted, exaggerated, or misrepresented version of the position of the argument."

Sooo… two points for admitting it.


  • Mr C
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1724

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2737 on: October 02, 2019, 07:30:15 pm »
Quote
How are $2 million in Russian ads more effective than Hillary's $1 billion spent on her campaign?

Where in the world did you get the idea that this is what anyone thinks?
It's literally all he's got.


  • Adel
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    • January 30, 2015, 12:50:26 am
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    more
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2738 on: October 03, 2019, 04:12:46 am »
Quote
How are $2 million in Russian ads more effective than Hillary's $1 billion spent on her campaign?

Where in the world did you get the idea that this is what anyone thinks?
It's literally all he's got.

We should be grateful he hasn't brought-up Hitler for a while.


  • NorthStar
  • Expert Waygook

    • 737

    • July 05, 2017, 10:54:06 am
    • Mouseville
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2739 on: October 03, 2019, 07:41:11 pm »
...for sure.