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  • gogators!
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2420 on: December 15, 2018, 06:32:27 am »
Which trump will be indicted or flip first?

Why impeach when you can jail?


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2421 on: December 15, 2018, 10:36:44 am »
No idea what you're talking about.  Probably because you spend too much time at clintonbabes.com or something.
You don't know that Stormy Daniels was ordered to pay Trump's lawyer fees for a nuisance lawsuit? You don't know that Juanita Brodderick and others have followed Clinton around demanding justice, while Trump's accusers have faded away? Doesn't that strike you as odd?

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You are unhinged.  Flynn, Page, Papadopoulos and now Butina, are unrelated to prostitution (which isn't necessarily stripping, BTW).  As far as talking to Russians, surely it depends on what you're talking about.  Your constant ignoring of this aspect is incredibly tedious.
It was an analogy. Saying that Flynn, Page, Papadopoulos, and others are guilty of collusion with Russia because they lied about Russians is using the same faulty logic as someone concluding that because someone lied about having sex with a prostitute, they must be part of a prostitution ring.

You can't assume that just because people lie to the authorities, even about something related to the investigation, that they are guilty or that even the crime you suspect happened has in fact happened. If you knew anything about human behavior, especially when it involves investigation, you'd know that people by default lie and only an amateur concludes "Hey, he lied, he must be guilty."

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First of all, that's not true.  Over a dozen Russian agents and companies have been indicted for interfering in the election of 2016. The Russian government interfered in the election.  And people like you, saying the things you say, make it more likely they and others will keep trying.  Why do you hate free, unimpeded American elections?
Welcome to the 21st century. Every country will interfere with every other country's election. It's called the WORLDWIDE WEB. We do it to them, they do it to us. And guess what? Their influence was negligible.

Only idiots think they had a significant impact. Anyone with a brain can see this is just an excuse to push anti-Russia narratives and use it as a smear against Trump.

You do realize that indicting these Russians for "interference" is akin to indicting a ham sandwich, right? In fact, some of the indictments seem dubious at best and likely won't result in conviction and are instead being used as symbols and leverage. You really need to read the details and not stop at "Russians indicted".

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Is it me who has no idea about the region?  Are you sure?  You are literally a laughingstock, but I have no idea?
Do you?

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Stop lying, would be a start.
You have no plan. That is the answer of a non-thinker. You don't even explain the potential costs and benefits of such an action.

You don't know what should be done. All you know is Trump Bad. Either offer a real alternative solution or stop complaining about it.

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I think it's telling that the Russians and other nefarious forces now think the Republicans are the exposed flank of American politics.
They thought the same about the Democrats. Hence why they invited Clinton to Russia and paid him a bunch of money and Russia and other despotic regimes funneled money to the Clinton Foundation.

If you think they don't see exposure on both sides, you're an idiot and you need to take off the partisan goggles. I can see exposure on the right with Eurosceptic style nationalism. I can also see it on the left with Sanders types as well as exposure in the center through funneling money using the international system.

MR. C, I think you're a fine human being and a reasonably intelligent person who obviously has principle. I also think you're...not the most streetsmart or up to date person out there. Your honesty and integrity means you're very direct and in the open and expect things to be the same and take things from authority at face value. But dude, you need to look behind things, why people do them, the tricks being used.

Take for example Khasoggi. In your world, he's a journalist and he was brutally murdered and that's an outrage. In my world, I have no idea who this guy was. People say he was a journalist, but in that region, for all I know he was a spy. Maybe he porked the Crown Prince's Sister. Maybe he passed info to the Crown Prince's enemies to topple the regime and back more pro-Wahhabist members of the family. Just because he was a journalist, doesn't mean that was his only job.

Or Trump-Russia. If you had any street smarts whatsoever, you'd realize it's all nonsense because if it WAS true, the last two years would have been a nuclear standoff between NATO/EU and Russia. If they REALLY believed that Trump was a Russian agent of Putin and taking orders from Putin, we would have been on the brink of war. If someone we suspected of being an agent was elected President of Italy, there would be a massive diplomatic crisis, our fleets would be deployed to the Mediterranean and the North Sea and we'd be shuttling troops to Poland. Get a clue, dude.

Same as the Russian facebook thing. Anyone with an ounce of common sense can take one look at those ads and the number of likes and shares and conclude that they had zero influence. They can look at the fact that no one is running to Russia to buy advertising, nor are these magical Russian facebook ads effective at promoting Russian exports. That's basic analytic thinking and understanding human behavior, but you haven't done it. You're just regurgitating the media because Trump offends you. I understand that you think Trump is an abomination and he should go. Fine. But that doesn't mean you just blindly accept every bit of anti-Trump BS thrown your way.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 10:46:44 am by Mr.DeMartino »


  • Mr C
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2422 on: December 15, 2018, 09:08:42 pm »
No idea what you're talking about.  Probably because you spend too much time at clintonbabes.com or something.
You don't know that Stormy Daniels was ordered to pay Trump's lawyer fees for a nuisance lawsuit?

Of course I know that. I didn't know you did, since you said all Trump's accusers have "faded away", but she was just in the headlines last week, so...

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You don't know that Juanita Brodderick and others have followed Clinton around demanding justice, while Trump's accusers have faded away? Doesn't that strike you as odd?

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You are unhinged.  Flynn, Page, Papadopoulos and now Butina, are unrelated to prostitution (which isn't necessarily stripping, BTW).  As far as talking to Russians, surely it depends on what you're talking about.  Your constant ignoring of this aspect is incredibly tedious.
It was an analogy. Saying that Flynn, Page, Papadopoulos, and others are guilty of collusion with Russia because they lied about Russians is using the same faulty logic as someone concluding that because someone lied about having sex with a prostitute, they must be part of a prostitution ring.
It's a poor analogy.  And I haven't said they are guilty of collusion (which isn't a legal thing, anyway) I said they have lied about their contacts with Russian agents.  Don't you wonder what they've been talking about?   Don't you think it could be related to Trump's laundering of millions in oligarch ill-gotten gains?  Do you think that shouldn't be investigated?  You accuse me of taking things at face value--but surely that's you, if you don't think there's possibly (hell, probably) something there?

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You can't assume that just because people lie to the authorities, even about something related to the investigation, that they are guilty or that even the crime you suspect happened has in fact happened. If you knew anything about human behavior, especially when it involves investigation, you'd know that people by default lie and only an amateur concludes "Hey, he lied, he must be guilty."
Well, they're certainly guilty of lying. But no, by default people don't lie--unless they have something to hide.  They may not have actually committed a crime, but they might think they did, for instance.  People with even a modicum of intelligence know that it's unwise to lie to the authorities. 
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First of all, that's not true.  Over a dozen Russian agents and companies have been indicted for interfering in the election of 2016. The Russian government interfered in the election.  And people like you, saying the things you say, make it more likely they and others will keep trying.  Why do you hate free, unimpeded American elections?
Welcome to the 21st century. Every country will interfere with every other country's election. It's called the WORLDWIDE WEB. We do it to them, they do it to us. And guess what? Their influence was negligible.

Only idiots think they had a significant impact. Anyone with a brain can see this is just an excuse to push anti-Russia narratives and use it as a smear against Trump.

You do realize that indicting these Russians for "interference" is akin to indicting a ham sandwich, right? In fact, some of the indictments seem dubious at best and likely won't result in conviction and are instead being used as symbols and leverage. You really need to read the details and not stop at "Russians indicted".

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Is it me who has no idea about the region?  Are you sure?  You are literally a laughingstock, but I have no idea?
Do you?
Yeah, I have a fair idea, having done considerable due diligence.  I read, just one example, Thomas Friedman's long piece about MBS when he came into power, back when Friedman and others thought he was going to be a liberalizer.  I read sadly of the decline of that view in more or less real time as MBS Ö turned to the dark side, for example the Lebanese PM, the Iran deal, etc.  Also, he's not going to be a dependable ally of the US, as Trump thinks. IOW, I have read the experts--which to you is a bad word, but it means people with knowledge and experience.  I'm going to assume you are not in the Middle East illuminati yourself, so do tell--who have consulted on the issue?
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Stop lying, would be a start.
You have no plan. That is the answer of a non-thinker. You don't even explain the potential costs and benefits of such an action.

You don't know what should be done. All you know is Trump Bad. Either offer a real alternative solution or stop complaining about it.

My suggestion that Trump stop lying wasn't per se about dealing with bin Salman, but with the US intelligence community.  Even if you think the CIA sometimes gets things wrong, or oversteps their bounds (and I certainly do), when the chips are down, we're gonna need them at the top of their form, and Trump's treatment of them only weakens them.  He is making the US weaker.
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I think it's telling that the Russians and other nefarious forces now think the Republicans are the exposed flank of American politics.
They thought the same about the Democrats. Hence why they invited Clinton to Russia and paid him a bunch of money and Russia and other despotic regimes funneled money to the Clinton Foundation.

If you think they don't see exposure on both sides, you're an idiot and you need to take off the partisan goggles.
Yes, they did.  But it's a different world now, one where the Russkies are no longer Commies bent on world domination, but a totalitarian regime bent on world domination.  We have learned that they not only hacked the Dems, but also the GOP.  Yet they only released the Dem stuff.  Why?  If you think it's because they got no dirt on the Republicans, I urge you to take off your "partisan goggles".

Putin targeted the Dems, because Obama stood up to him, imposed very damaging sanctions and HRC likewise failed to see him as the macho man he thinks he is.  He hates her.  There's definitely a personal animus in the Russian choosing of sides.  There's also of course a desire to foment dissent, chaos, and make cracks in what has been a solid Western stand against his regime.  Trump was seen as a means to that, an unstable, opportunistic dotard who they had the goods on. Certainly they knew that he knew they knew he lied throughout the campaign about his links to Russian money.  I know you think I'm underinformed, but I know that this is exactly the
Russian playbook on tradecraft.

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I can see exposure on the right with Eurosceptic style nationalism. I can also see it on the left with Sanders types as well as exposure in the center through funneling money using the international system.

MR. C, I think you're a fine human being and a reasonably intelligent person who obviously has principle. I also think you're...not the most streetsmart or up to date person out there. Your honesty and integrity means you're very direct and in the open and expect things to be the same and take things from authority at face value. But dude, you need to look behind things, why people do them, the tricks being used.

Take for example Khasoggi. In your world, he's a journalist and he was brutally murdered and that's an outrage. In my world, I have no idea who this guy was. People say he was a journalist, but in that region, for all I know he was a spy. Maybe he porked the Crown Prince's Sister. Maybe he passed info to the Crown Prince's enemies to topple the regime and back more pro-Wahhabist members of the family. Just because he was a journalist, doesn't mean that was his only job.

Or Trump-Russia. If you had any street smarts whatsoever, you'd realize it's all nonsense because if it WAS true, the last two years would have been a nuclear standoff between NATO/EU and Russia. If they REALLY believed that Trump was a Russian agent of Putin and taking orders from Putin, we would have been on the brink of war. If someone we suspected of being an agent was elected President of Italy, there would be a massive diplomatic crisis, our fleets would be deployed to the Mediterranean and the North Sea and we'd be shuttling troops to Poland. Get a clue, dude.

Riiiight.  I'm an idiot because I don't think Putin's an idiot. Or something. Because he would feel free to start WWIII with Trump's blessing. Or something?  I guess you'll have to trust me on this, but if the US suspected Italy of having elected an "agent" as president, our fleets would totally not be deployed to the Mediterranean. You are really bad at analogies.

But, OTOH, you must have missed the recent kerfuffle vs. Ukraine with the three warships in international waters.  The Russians are gradually trying to own the Azov Sea.  Next the Black Sea, etc.  Where is the forceful US denunciation of this outrageous behavior? Not expecting the fleets or anything, but something beyond "Putin and I have a great relationship" would not go amiss.
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Same as the Russian facebook thing. Anyone with an ounce of common sense can take one look at those ads and the number of likes and shares and conclude that they had zero influence. They can look at the fact that no one is running to Russia to buy advertising, nor are these magical Russian facebook ads effective at promoting Russian exports. That's basic analytic thinking and understanding human behavior,
1) Who are these Russian advertising agencies? Pravda.com? I think it speaks worlds that in China today (I was there for two weeks in August with an American journo) the main outside TV news you get is Russia Today.
2) Russian exports? No thanks, we already have turnips.
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but you haven't done it. You're just regurgitating the media because Trump offends you. I understand that you think Trump is an abomination and he should go. Fine. But that doesn't mean you just blindly accept every bit of anti-Trump BS thrown your way.
See? This is why--no offence--people don't like you.

I can't imagine why you imagine I haven't done "basic analytic thinking and understanding human behavior" when:
1) I never lie in an argument
2) I never construct strawman arguments
3) I don't confuse cause and effect
4) I don't assume things not in evidence (though I do make reasonable extrapolations like "where there's smoke, there's probably fire")
5) I don't ignore facts in evidence

And, Mr. DeMartino, you do all of these things so regularly it is the easiest way to know it was a post you wrote.


  • gogators!
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2423 on: December 15, 2018, 11:26:04 pm »
Mr. C, that last post is worthy of an Anderson Cooper "Keeping Them Honest" segment.

Bravo!


  • Chester Jim
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2424 on: December 16, 2018, 03:56:42 am »
You canít prove that trump paid to have them keep quiet because of the campaign versus because of protecting his image .   Itís just unprovable, unless he says thatís why he did it.  Even if he says thatís why, itís still nothing.

The big deal here is that Cohen got caughtevading taxes.   They threatened his family and him for tax evasion if he didnít squeal on trump.    This is very partisan and crooked.
This makes dems look bad to all intelligent people.   

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lvoxtNLGLwg
Bonzai!


  • Adel
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2425 on: December 16, 2018, 07:01:52 am »
Well that settles it then. The case has been resolved by Alan Dershowitz on Youtube.






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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2427 on: December 16, 2018, 09:57:04 am »
Well that settles it then. The case has been resolved by Alan Dershowitz on Youtube.






No there's that video but most important was my argument
Bonzai!


  • CDW
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2428 on: December 16, 2018, 12:51:10 pm »
"No administration has done more in the first two years than the Trump administration."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TliBmhpt2YE&t=38

Can you think of a counterexample?


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2429 on: December 16, 2018, 01:44:36 pm »
Of course I know that. I didn't know you did, since you said all Trump's accusers have "faded away", but she was just in the headlines last week, so...
What did Ms. Daniels accuse Trump of in terms of harassment or rape? Nothing. She said they had a consensual sexual relationship.

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It's a poor analogy.  And I haven't said they are guilty of collusion (which isn't a legal thing, anyway) I said they have lied about their contacts with Russian agents.  Don't you wonder what they've been talking about?   Don't you think it could be related to Trump's laundering of millions in oligarch ill-gotten gains?  Do you think that shouldn't be investigated?  You accuse me of taking things at face value--but surely that's you, if you don't think there's possibly (hell, probably) something there?
There could be. Have they been charged with any underlying crime? It's possible, but you can't be angry at Trump for stuff that hasn't even been proven.

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Well, they're certainly guilty of lying. But no, by default people don't lie--unless they have something to hide.
Oh please. People lie constantly about everything. From David Simon's Homicide: A Year on the Killing Streets:

It is a God-given truth. Everyone lies.
A. Murderers (criminals) lie because they have to.
B. Witnesses and other participants lie because they think they have to.
C. Everyone else lies for the sheer joy of it, and to uphold a general principle that under no circumstances do you provide accurate information to a cop.

People lie about EVERYTHING. Makeup is a lie. Fingernails are a lie. The clothes people wear are a lie. That watch or car or TV is a lie- you aren't that rich. Everyone lies constantly about how much sex they're getting. They lie about whether they want to bang someone. They lie about their kinks and fetishes. They lie about whether they like people. They lie about their views and feelings on race. They lie about liking their boss, their coworkers, their family, their spouse, their kids. They lie on their taxes. They lie about what they had for breakfast. They lie about how often they brush their teeth, how often they shower, whether they jacked off that morning, whether they picked their nose in the car.

It's human nature.

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Yeah, I have a fair idea, having done considerable due diligence.  I read, just one example, Thomas Friedman's
You read a western source about what's going on inside the Middle East. From the New York Times.

"I read Judith Miller in the New York Times and she said blah blah blah about Saddam's WMD's. I believe her because she's an expert and in the New York Times, therefore I am smart for using this as a source." That's the same kind of logic.

Dude, if you only rely on Western sources from the MSM, you are clueless. Do you have any Turkis, Saudi, Jordanian, Emirati, Lebanese, Qatari or other sources?

" I read a few 15 minute articles from the NYTimes and Slate, and now I understand the Middle East." Yeah, and I'm on expert on Colombia because I've watched the first two seasons of Narcos. Give me a break. You'd need to spend years studying the region and the family dynamics to have any idea what is going on there.

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I have read the experts--which to you is a bad word, but it means people with knowledge and experience
Weren't these the same experts that assured us that there were WMDs, that invading Iraq was a good thing, that we needed to overthrow Assad, that getting rid of Ghadaffi was a good thing, that Trump was going to collapse the economy in his first year, that Macron was a great leader, and all this other crap? Being an "expert" doesn't mean anything if you're wrong all the time.

It's because they're not experts, they're opinion writers.

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I'm going to assume you are not in the Middle East Illuminati yourself
You're darn right I'm not. I know enough about the region and politics there to know you shouldn't even pretend to think you have any sort of clue given the sheer level of complexity and irrationality in the region. Our politics in the U.S. could be explained in a magazine. Middle Eastern politics would require a multi-volume series of tomes. I'm certainly not dumb enough to think I have a handle on the situation because I've read a handful of articles written by western journalists.

You do realize Thomas Friedman is NOT a Middle East expert, right? He's a jack of all trades. At least I can tell the difference between a general knowledge opinion writer and an expert.

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and Trump's treatment of them only weakens them.  He is making the US weaker.
Oh give me a break. Nothing changes with the CIA based on whether or not Trump says they suck or not.

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but a totalitarian regime bent on world domination
World domination? Really? You actually believe that?

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Putin targeted the Dems, because Obama stood up to him, imposed very damaging sanctions and HRC likewise failed to see him as the macho man he thinks he is.  He hates her.  There's definitely a personal animus in the Russian choosing of sides.

And why do you think Russia is acting this way? Do you think Putin just decided "Hey...I'm evil! Let's dominate the world! Mwahahahahah!"

Do you have any clue what happened with Russia, NATO, the West, and Western investment post Gorbachev and up to Putin? This is not a black and white issue. Are you incapable of seeing things from their perspective?

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I guess you'll have to trust me on this, but if the US suspected Italy of having elected an "agent" as president, our fleets would totally not be deployed to the Mediterranean. You are really bad at analogies
Wrong. If Italy was taken over by someone suspected of being a Russian agent, that would trigger a MASSIVE diplomatic crisis. What do you think would happen? Everyone would shrug? They likely wouldn't even be able to take office. Heck, the EU essentially took the Italian presidency at one point into receivership over Euro debt issues. That's peanuts compared to the President being a Russian agent.

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The Russians are gradually trying to own the Azov Sea.  Next the Black Sea, etc.  Where is the forceful US denunciation of this outrageous behavior?
The #2 military power in the world announcing it has a sphere of influence and challenging outside powers that approach it's shores. I can't imagine the U.S. every objecting to that and invading a sovereign country.

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1) Who are these Russian advertising agencies? Pravda.com? I think it speaks worlds that in China today (I was there for two weeks in August with an American journo) the main outside TV news you get is Russia Today.
2) Russian exports? No thanks, we already have turnips.
You don't get it? If Russian advertising was so effective, every Western company would be using them and Madison Ave. would be bankrupt. They aren't. Why? Because it wasn't effective.

Look at people's actions. If Russian advertising really worked so well, everyone would be using it. They aren't. Why? Because it doesn't work that well, if at all. YOU are the one buying into Kremlin propaganda when you believe these ads are uber powerful and Putin is a puppet master.

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1) I never lie in an argument
2) I never construct strawman arguments
3) I don't confuse cause and effect
4) I don't assume things not in evidence (though I do make reasonable extrapolations like "where there's smoke, there's probably fire")
5) I don't ignore facts in evidence

You basically just said you believe that you are immune from bias and your arguments are completely logical. Anyone who knows anything about human cognition, psychology, and behavior, will tell you that is not true. Everyone makes the same mistakes and flaws and is susceptible to bias.

You're a fine person Mr. C, but I don't think you realize the extent to which you yourself are flawed and biased, nor do you understand the extent to which the sources you rely upon are flawed and biased.

I mean, for goodness' sake, you claimed to have decent enough insight into the Middle East because you read some articles by Tom Friedman and others.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 09:01:22 pm by kyndo »


  • Mr C
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2430 on: December 17, 2018, 01:51:41 pm »

Oh please. People lie constantly about everything. From David Simon's Homicide: A Year on the Killing Streets:

It is a God-given truth. Everyone lies.
A. Murderers (criminals) lie because they have to.
B. Witnesses and other participants lie because they think they have to.
C. Everyone else lies for the sheer joy of it, and to uphold a general principle that under no circumstances do you provide accurate information to a cop.

People lie about EVERYTHING. Makeup is a lie. Fingernails are a lie. The clothes people wear are a lie. That watch or car or TV is a lie- you aren't that rich. Everyone lies constantly about how much sex they're getting. They lie about whether they want to bang someone. They lie about their kinks and fetishes. They lie about whether they like people. They lie about their views and feelings on race. They lie about liking their boss, their coworkers, their family, their spouse, their kids. They lie on their taxes. They lie about what they had for breakfast. They lie about how often they brush their teeth, how often they shower, whether they jacked off that morning, whether they picked their nose in the car.

Now I see why you like Trump so much--you have a lot in common, at least ethically.


  • Mr C
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2431 on: December 17, 2018, 02:03:56 pm »
Hey, something very fishy is going on here!!!!

Yesterday, I  took the post just above by DeMartino and eliminated everything but the numerous times he called me names or attacked my character.

So it went something like:
you are clueless ...
...idiot...

get a clue ...
You are clueless


 etc

Then I pointed out that argumentum ad hominem is another of his problematic posting behaviors.

That post is deleted.  Now, it is quite common on this board for people to accuse others of ad hominem, and I even included the evidence.

Not only is my post deleted, but the post of DeMartino that I quoted has been modified and all the most problematic language removed.

This timestamp on the post says it was last edited by Kyndo.


  • kyndo
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2432 on: December 17, 2018, 02:14:34 pm »
Hey, something very fishy is going on here!!!!

Yesterday, I  took the post just above by DeMartino and eliminated everything but the numerous times he called me names or attacked my character.
So it went something like...
...Then I pointed out that argumentum ad hominem is another of his problematic posting behaviors.
...
...Not only is my post deleted, but the post of DeMartino that I quoted has been modified and all the most problematic language removed.
This timestamp on the post says it was last edited by Kyndo.
Yeah, it was me.
I looked at the post and agreed that it was a bit ad hominemy, so I tried to remove that part of it (without changing content).
I figured doing that would resolve the problem, so I deleted the complaint (mostly because it quoted the ad hominems, and I didn't want to go through it all again to change 'em 'cause I'm lazy).

If you like, I could add a warning or something, and maybe a changelog?


  • Adel
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2433 on: December 17, 2018, 03:07:40 pm »
Similar things have happened to my posts in exchanges with Martini. I figure Martini warrants special protection status on account of his tireless contrarian trolling.  ;D   


  • Mr C
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2434 on: December 17, 2018, 04:45:12 pm »
Hey, something very fishy is going on here!!!!

Yesterday, I  took the post just above by DeMartino and eliminated everything but the numerous times he called me names or attacked my character.
So it went something like...
...Then I pointed out that argumentum ad hominem is another of his problematic posting behaviors.
...
...Not only is my post deleted, but the post of DeMartino that I quoted has been modified and all the most problematic language removed.
This timestamp on the post says it was last edited by Kyndo.
Yeah, it was me.
I looked at the post and agreed that it was a bit ad hominemy, so I tried to remove that part of it (without changing content).
I figured doing that would resolve the problem, so I deleted the complaint (mostly because it quoted the ad hominems, and I didn't want to go through it all again to change 'em 'cause I'm lazy).

If you like, I could add a warning or something, and maybe a changelog?

Well, there are a few different things.  First, my post was removed, and I wasn't even told it was happening.  It's true that I have no "rights" here other than what's in the TOS, but a head's up or something, public or private, would be good.

Secondly, if you're going to retroactively correct DeMartino's posts for his violations of posting etiquette and argumentum errors, you're about, let's see, 5,809 posts behind.  Okay, not really, but he is pretty egregious--and I'm not saying he's alone.  Whacking my post makes it seem like I'm in the same category, and I don't feel that's true.

Thirdly, I'm a big boy and I can fend for myself--I feel that my response was adequate, and let his words show him for what he is.  But I am of the camp that we don't really moderation in the social area, unless it comes to behavior like doxxing or physical threats, serious stuff.

You mentioned in our PM exchange that you warned Martino, but there's nothing in his profile box to indicate that. I would have thought such warnings were public, because that's a fair part of their value.

Kyndo, I've always thought you to be a good guy, and frankly I can't imagine why you would become a moderator here at this stage.  But if you're going to moderate at this kind of granularity, you have some long, long days ahead of you.  Oh well, that's your business, not mine.  Good luck!


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2435 on: December 17, 2018, 05:52:59 pm »
"No administration has done more in the first two years than the Trump administration."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TliBmhpt2YE&t=38

Can you think of a counterexample?

Is there a point to this post or are you just on autopilot comrade?

Trump has accomplished nothing but an unpopular Congressional tax bill he had little to do with.
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Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32 PM
    Trump is a liar and a con man.
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Quote from Mr.DeMartino on June 14, 2019 at 02:28:07 pm
Donald Trump is a lying sack of shit


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2436 on: December 17, 2018, 11:48:23 pm »
Now I see why you like Trump so much--you have a lot in common, at least ethically.

Mr. C, here's the problem. You blast me for ad hominem, but go look at your own posts. You do this a fair bit in these political debates. I don't really care because I don't really take something like this as "flag worthy" ad hominem. I might point it out as a bad argument, but we can have some back and forth.

The thing is, you seem to think you're not part of this. Guess what, EVERYONE is. To some extent or another, something about you is BS. Same as everyone else. And the fact is, believing that people aren't constantly lying is just...wrong. EVERYONE LIES. Any criminal investigator worth their salt would tell you that you can't determine someone's guilt just because they lied. If that were the case, they'd lock up the first person they talk to. The trick to criminal investigating is not catching someone in a lie, it's sifting through everyone's lies to figure out what is the truth. This is especially relevant in a probe in which it has not been established that a crime has been committed.

Secondly, if you're going to retroactively correct DeMartino's posts for his violations of posting etiquette and argumentum errors, you're about, let's see, 5,809 posts behind.  Okay, not really, but he is pretty egregious--and I'm not saying he's alone.  Whacking my post makes it seem like I'm in the same category, and I don't feel that's true.
Dude, we have different styles, but yours has a different snark all its own. Look, I try not to cross the line, but if "clueless" is over the line (and "idiot" definitely was), then I accept that. In my posts I made the point that I think you're a nice guy and well meaning. But I don't think you're the best at banter and might be confusing banter with a personal attack.

Take for example your Tom Friedman point. I could respond 1 of 2 ways,

A) The boring way. "While Tom Friedman is a respected journalist writing for what is traditionally the most respected newspaper in America, I do not think he is especially qualified to be an expert on the Middle East. I would also question your use of exclusively western and English-language sources as they might not be a representative sample of Middle East insight and opinion.

or

B) Dude, really? Tom Friedman? Are you really that clueless? You're just going to regurgitate what the NYTimes says? Tom Friedman isn't even a Middle East expert. Seriously? Dude, only an i-word would rely on American news sources for stuff about the Middle East. Get a clue man, you gotta at least look at Arabic, Turkish, and Egyptian sources. Lemme guess, you're probably one of those suckers who believes every Japanese kid is getting a BJ from his mom to help him study.

Now, sometimes I'll go with A and sometimes I'll go with B. If you can look past the tone, the actual substance is the same. The thing is I'm not just writing to you, I'm also writing to other people reading. Being familiar and non-pedantic is more persuasive and reaches a different audience. In fact, and I agree to some extent, there's a certain authenticity to it that's lacking with dry opinion. It lets you emphasize which points you feel strongly about and the relative merit you give to each argument. There's a time for both.

I especially choose 'B' with you because frankly, I feel that you really overlook the "human" element and the fact that just because something is outside the norm, does not mean it isn't true or valid. That's why I bring up the point about "Why aren't US companies using Russian ad agencies?" or "Why isn't NATO and the EU on the verge of war with Russia because they've essentially taken over the US?" Like, have you even asked yourself those questions? It's a different level of thinking beyond "Mueller's probe so far has indictments of so and so and some people have lied." That's rational. That's Holmesian. I'm talking about the Poirot level of thinking- the psychology, the intuitive, human behavior. Why are people behaving in this manner? And why? Because I think it's pretty damn obvious that when you look at the behavior of companies around the world and them NOT using Russian ads and Russia NOT exporting, that Russian ads amounted to jack shit during the election. And I think when you look at the behavior of NATO countries and the EU, that none of them really believe Trump is a Russian agent. And that settles those questions. There's no scholarly article that proves that. No NYTimes columnist that's writing that. All there is, is YOUR understanding of human nature and behavior to decide if that makes sense.

Also dude, when I call you clueless or the i-word, I'm not attacking your character, I'm attacking your comprehension of the situation. It's like making a bad move in chess- "Dude, what were you thinking? You're an idiot for thinking that". Clueless people and idiots can be perfectly good people. Half of my friends are idiots. They're also great people. You actually attack my character. And that's fine. I think you're a swell guy, like I said.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 11:51:54 pm by Mr.DeMartino »


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2437 on: December 17, 2018, 11:50:19 pm »
Also, I want to point out that another reason for banter is the humor element. That's because humor has a certain value that cuts through dry opinion.

I mean, if we were arguing this over beers, it would be like "This dude here thinks that Russian facebook ads tipped the election. Now I've seen these ads, and like the most popular one had 120 likes and 24 shares. Seriously? Like, I know MFers that would cry if all they got were 120 likes on the shit they post on facebook. Like, that ain't viral. That's not even a sneeze. You know what was viral? Video of that bitch Hillary Clinton wobbling like the Twin Towers and getting her ass tossed in the back of a delivery van like a passed out underage rock groupie gets tossed in the back of the limo. Then her coming out 2 hours later wearing some Mr. Fuji sunglasses in a Star Trek ambassador's suit. Who the F is going to vote for that shit? Seriously, dude, you're clueless if you think those facebook ads are why Trump won."

"Well, well, Mueller's probe indicates that..." Yawn.

And that's the thing. Anyone with an ounce of common sense and understanding about human behavior should be able to look at those two things and realize one really did change people's minds about who to vote for and another was a fart in the wind. And that doesn't get communicated in a dry, respectful post. But what's more is that it is true. Anyone can make anything sound real in a report. You can't do that with talking funny. There's an instinctual "That's so true." or "Nahhh" that comes with it. That's why there's sarcasm and jokes and banter in the post.

Go ahead and try it. Try and make a facebook ad with 124 likes sound like it really changed the election using banter and then using banter, show how moronic the idea is that one of the candidates getting tossed in the back of a van after collapsing at Ground Zero changed people's minds. Humor is based on truth. If you can't make it funny, it probably isn't true.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 11:53:47 pm by Mr.DeMartino »


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2438 on: December 18, 2018, 04:26:54 am »
I wonder when Martin:s boss will realize he/she is paying him to sit around shitposting on Waygook all day. He clearly doesn't do any work.
Quote
Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32 PM
    Trump is a liar and a con man.
Quote
Quote from Mr.DeMartino on June 14, 2019 at 02:28:07 pm
Donald Trump is a lying sack of shit


  • Mr C
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2439 on: December 18, 2018, 06:31:53 am »
Now I see why you like Trump so much--you have a lot in common, at least ethically.

Mr. C, here's the problem. You blast me for ad hominem, but go look at your own posts. You do this a fair bit in these political debates. I don't really care because I don't really take something like this as "flag worthy" ad hominem. I might point it out as a bad argument, but we can have some back and forth.


1) Um, I didn't flag you. 

2) You went on a one hundred word screed about how much you lie.  It can't be an ad hominem if you proudly admit to it, can it?

3) I did point out you're really bad at analogies, but's not attacking you so much as the analogies.

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...Like, have you even asked yourself those questions? ...


From now on, just assume that if something has occured to you, it occured to me a month ago.  If you want to think that's an ad hominem attack, feel free.