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  • Adel
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1720 on: May 21, 2018, 11:24:53 am »
Well if the editor of The New Yorker says so, it must be true.
Seemed to me a pretty closely reasoned article. Any flaws of logic or errors of fact you would like to point out?


I read the article looking for information on the Deep State and why it doesn't exist.

 Argumentum ad ignorantiam yet again.  :laugh: 
It's a favorite of Trump and his supporters. Like the time Trump wanted Comey to prove that the infamous golden shower tape didn't exist.  :laugh:

http://www.waygook.org/index.php?topic=104010.msg751690#msg751690


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1721 on: May 21, 2018, 11:40:23 am »
One could certainly make a good argument why it doesn't exist, but that article did not do it.

I think considering the history of the FBI and J. Edgar Hoover, the Cold War military-industrial complex, and the fact that a Deep State does exist in other countries, that it is certainly probable that some sort of nexus of influencers is going to materialize. It seems to be almost a natural result of any structure that combines government, the economy, the military, and intelligence gathering that those people who possess that knowledge and make those decisions, and are in unelected and/or unappointed positions would have tremendous amounts of power.

We have the Daley "machine" that ran Chicago. We have Tammany Hall. We have the mafia. Certainly corrupt behind the scenes interest can gain incredible power and influence outside our laws and what ordinary people expect.


  • ESLTurtle
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1722 on: May 21, 2018, 01:39:45 pm »
Trump is exactly what our GREAT country needs.  8)
liberals.. smfh  :rolleyes:


  • Mr C
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1723 on: May 21, 2018, 02:26:10 pm »
One could certainly make a good argument why it doesn't exist, but that article did not do it.

I think considering the history of the FBI and J. Edgar Hoover, the Cold War military-industrial complex, and the fact that a Deep State does exist in other countries, that it is certainly probable that some sort of nexus of influencers is going to materialize. It seems to be almost a natural result of any structure that combines government, the economy, the military, and intelligence gathering that those people who possess that knowledge and make those decisions, and are in unelected and/or unappointed positions would have tremendous amounts of power.
Are you sure you read the article?  It addresses these issues, though perhaps in a way you disagree with. Still, you should point out what it is you disagree with, not just keep saying Hoover and military-industrial complex over and over. That’s not how reasoned argumentation works.
Quote

We have the Daley "machine" that ran Chicago. We have Tammany Hall. We have the mafia. Certainly corrupt behind the scenes interest can gain incredible power and influence outside our laws and what ordinary people expect.
The Daley machine and the Mafia are just utterly unrelated to what anyone means by Deep State.


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1724 on: May 21, 2018, 03:09:36 pm »
The article doesn't address the actual question of whether or not there is a Deep State until here-
Quote
But to use the term as it is used in Turkey, Pakistan, or Egypt is to assume that all these institutions constitute part of a subterranean web of common and nefarious purpose. The reason that Trump is so eager to take a conspiratorial view of everything from the C.I.A. to CNN is that an astonishing array of individuals have spoken out or acted against him. Above all, he is infuriated that intelligence and investigative services have been looking into possible Russian connections to him, his advisers, his campaign, and his financial interests.

The article states (although in my opinion applies a semantic argument) "that all these institutions constitute part of a subterranean web of common and nefarious purpose."

Okay, but where does it refute its existence? It simply goes on to a non-sequiter about Trump.

It then rambles on to here-

Quote
Trump and Bannon would undoubtedly have called Deep Throat glaring evidence of an American Deep State. Felt was a Hoover loyalist; he oversaw the F.B.I.’s pursuit of radical groups like the Weather Underground and instituted illegal searches, known as “black-bag jobs.” Yet he was deeply offended that the President and his top aides ran what constituted a criminal operation out of the White House, and he risked everything to guide Woodward. The level of risk became clear in October, 1972, when Nixon’s aide H. R. Haldeman told him that Felt was the likely source. “Now, why the hell would he do that?” Nixon said. “Is he Catholic?” “Jewish,” Haldeman replied. “Christ, [they] put a Jew in there,” Nixon said. “That could explain it, too.” (It didn’t, quite. Felt was not Jewish.)

Again, none of which addresses the question of whether or not there is a Deep Space and any evidence for or against it.

It simply mindreads "Trump and Bannon would undoubtedly have..." and then uses a single historical example of...what?

The closing also does not address its existence, and in fact, seems to suggest that it might exist and if so, it is not a problem relative to the problem of Trump.
Quote
The problem in Washington is not a Deep State; the problem is a shallow man—an untruthful, vain, vindictive, alarmingly erratic President.

Indeed, whatever the author says, it has scant weight compared to an example he himself cites as one of the reasons  people suspect a deep state exists-

Quote
Eisenhower warned of the “military-industrial complex”

A former United States President and general, during the Cold War, was clearly concerned about what he saw developing such that he explicitly warned the American people about it. That certainly carries more weight than speculation over Deep Throat. In fact, in his farewell address he chose to address only two threats- The military-industrial complex and the technological elite. Not the Soviet Union. Not Communism. Not SE Asia. Not Cuba.

President Eisenhower-
Quote
Now this conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every Statehouse, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet, we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications...In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

Quote
The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present -- and is gravely to be regarded.

Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.

It is the task of statesmanship to mold, to balance, and to integrate these and other forces, new and old, within the principles of our democratic system -- ever aiming toward the supreme goals of our free society

Now given that this threat was strongly alluded to by Eisenhower. And given that we've had past abuses by the FBI under Hoover (who himself was tantamount to a 1-man Deep State such that he could not be removed from power despite everyone loathing him) as well as numerous CIA activities, as well as people such as Brennan and Clapper blatantly lying to the American people under oath about surveillance activities, there certainly should be more to refute the Deep State than what the article offered.

Now there might be a better article, and what I've said here is certainly insufficient proof of its existence, but if one had to say "More likely" or "Less likely" that some sort of cabal of undetermined reach and scope exists in Washington, primarily concerned with military, intelligence, and economic affairs, then I would lean towards "more likely".

Certainly the fact that it exists in other countries, ones which have varying degrees of democratic practice, proves that it is at least plausible for it to exist here. If there were NO countries that had a Deep State, then that might be a different matter.


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1725 on: May 21, 2018, 03:10:16 pm »
not just keep saying Hoover and military-industrial complex over and over.

But Hoover became head of the Bureau of Investigation's General Intelligence Division in 1919. That's quite recent. Therefore it's quite relevant.

Hoover is alive and head of the Bureau when some of these people began working in government.


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1726 on: May 21, 2018, 03:26:34 pm »
Furthermore, if indeed Trump did, in their mind, represent a serious threat to America and it's democracy, as pretty much every anti-Trumper has claimed, and if that threat is legitimate and realistic, then isn't it at least plausible that some elements with power MIGHT have taken steps against him that were possibly "grey" in nature, especially considering that one of those agencies, the CIA, has a history of interference in elections and regimes?

Or did they sit back while this allegedly catastrophic threat cruised towards the presidency? How far do you go to stop "Hitler 2.0"?


  • gogators!
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1727 on: May 21, 2018, 10:54:49 pm »
Furthermore, if indeed Trump did, in their mind, represent a serious threat to America and it's democracy, as pretty much every anti-Trumper has claimed, and if that threat is legitimate and realistic, then isn't it at least plausible that some elements with power MIGHT have taken steps against him that were possibly "grey" in nature, especially considering that one of those agencies, the CIA, has a history of interference in elections and regimes?

Or did they sit back while this allegedly catastrophic threat cruised towards the presidency? How far do you go to stop "Hitler 2.0"?
Alex Jones, is that you?

Conspiracy theories are the comfort food of losers. The evidence against trump is growing stronger, Cohen, according to reports, is feeling the pressure and how about the defamation suit trump may be deposed in? Dark days ahead for the MAGA crowd (even those carrying guns to a mass shooting).

But hey, it's all Obama's doing and he's not even an American citizen (a lie begun by Russian propagandists, BTW).

Or is it the ghost of J Edgar secretly running the FBI?


  • Chester Jim
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1728 on: May 22, 2018, 08:49:45 am »
Furthermore, if indeed Trump did, in their mind, represent a serious threat to America and it's democracy, as pretty much every anti-Trumper has claimed, and if that threat is legitimate and realistic, then isn't it at least plausible that some elements with power MIGHT have taken steps against him that were possibly "grey" in nature, especially considering that one of those agencies, the CIA, has a history of interference in elections and regimes?

Or did they sit back while this allegedly catastrophic threat cruised towards the presidency? How far do you go to stop "Hitler 2.0"?
Alex Jones, is that you?

Conspiracy theories are the comfort food of losers. The evidence against trump is growing stronger, Cohen, according to reports, is feeling the pressure and how about the defamation suit trump may be deposed in? Dark days ahead for the MAGA crowd (even those carrying guns to a mass shooting).

But hey, it's all Obama's doing and he's not even an American citizen (a lie begun by Russian propagandists, BTW).

Or is it the ghost of J Edgar secretly running the FBI?
There wasn’t one conservative on mueller team.   It’s well documenteded that obama leftovers are and were holed up in the beaurucracy.
Bonzai!


  • Savant
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1729 on: May 22, 2018, 01:27:14 pm »
Furthermore, if indeed Trump did, in their mind, represent a serious threat to America and it's democracy, as pretty much every anti-Trumper has claimed, and if that threat is legitimate and realistic, then isn't it at least plausible that some elements with power MIGHT have taken steps against him that were possibly "grey" in nature, especially considering that one of those agencies, the CIA, has a history of interference in elections and regimes?

Or did they sit back while this allegedly catastrophic threat cruised towards the presidency? How far do you go to stop "Hitler 2.0"?
Alex Jones, is that you?

Conspiracy theories are the comfort food of losers. The evidence against trump is growing stronger, Cohen, according to reports, is feeling the pressure and how about the defamation suit trump may be deposed in? Dark days ahead for the MAGA crowd (even those carrying guns to a mass shooting).

But hey, it's all Obama's doing and he's not even an American citizen (a lie begun by Russian propagandists, BTW).

Or is it the ghost of J Edgar secretly running the FBI?
There wasn’t one conservative on mueller team.   It’s well documenteded that obama leftovers are and were holed up in the beaurucracy.

And then you got anti-Hillary FBI agents at the NY Field Office leaking information to ol’ Rudy.


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1730 on: May 22, 2018, 04:25:19 pm »
Conspiracy theories are the comfort food of losers. The evidence against trump is growing stronger, Cohen, according to reports, is feeling the pressure and how about the defamation suit trump may be deposed in? Dark days ahead for the MAGA crowd (even those carrying guns to a mass shooting).
Says the person who believes in a Russian conspiracy theory.


  • Adel
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1731 on: May 22, 2018, 06:09:50 pm »
Conspiracy theories are the comfort food of losers. The evidence against trump is growing stronger, Cohen, according to reports, is feeling the pressure and how about the defamation suit trump may be deposed in? Dark days ahead for the MAGA crowd (even those carrying guns to a mass shooting).
Says the person who believes in a Russian conspiracy theory.
No, buddy, that a live investigation with guilty pleas and host of plea deals.
Get off the Rudy and Hannidy Trump train and try to restore some credibility to speakers of our shared language before its too late.

https://www.dailydot.com/wp-content/uploads/1a0/11/29f211b6024b0c98-2048x1024.jpg

« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 03:12:23 am by Adel »


  • gogators!
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1732 on: May 22, 2018, 09:37:50 pm »
Conspiracy theories are the comfort food of losers. The evidence against trump is growing stronger, Cohen, according to reports, is feeling the pressure and how about the defamation suit trump may be deposed in? Dark days ahead for the MAGA crowd (even those carrying guns to a mass shooting).
Says the person who believes in a Russian conspiracy theory.
Indictments, arrests and guilty pleas are not theory; they're fact.

Stay tuned, for there's more to come.


  • gogators!
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1733 on: May 22, 2018, 09:43:50 pm »
Furthermore, if indeed Trump did, in their mind, represent a serious threat to America and it's democracy, as pretty much every anti-Trumper has claimed, and if that threat is legitimate and realistic, then isn't it at least plausible that some elements with power MIGHT have taken steps against him that were possibly "grey" in nature, especially considering that one of those agencies, the CIA, has a history of interference in elections and regimes?

Or did they sit back while this allegedly catastrophic threat cruised towards the presidency? How far do you go to stop "Hitler 2.0"?
Alex Jones, is that you?

Conspiracy theories are the comfort food of losers. The evidence against trump is growing stronger, Cohen, according to reports, is feeling the pressure and how about the defamation suit trump may be deposed in? Dark days ahead for the MAGA crowd (even those carrying guns to a mass shooting).

But hey, it's all Obama's doing and he's not even an American citizen (a lie begun by Russian propagandists, BTW).

Or is it the ghost of J Edgar secretly running the FBI?
There wasn’t one conservative on mueller team.   It’s well documenteded that obama leftovers are and were holed up in the beaurucracy.
Mueller is a Republican. No doubt many of the FBI agents working for him as investigators are Republicans.

What's a  "beaurucracy" and where are you "holed up"?


  • Mr C
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1734 on: May 23, 2018, 07:53:20 am »
Furthermore, if indeed Trump did, in their mind, represent a serious threat to America and it's democracy, as pretty much every anti-Trumper has claimed, and if that threat is legitimate and realistic, then isn't it at least plausible that some elements with power MIGHT have taken steps against him that were possibly "grey" in nature, especially considering that one of those agencies, the CIA, has a history of interference in elections and regimes?

Or did they sit back while this allegedly catastrophic threat cruised towards the presidency? How far do you go to stop "Hitler 2.0"?
Alex Jones, is that you?

Conspiracy theories are the comfort food of losers. The evidence against trump is growing stronger, Cohen, according to reports, is feeling the pressure and how about the defamation suit trump may be deposed in? Dark days ahead for the MAGA crowd (even those carrying guns to a mass shooting).

But hey, it's all Obama's doing and he's not even an American citizen (a lie begun by Russian propagandists, BTW).

Or is it the ghost of J Edgar secretly running the FBI?
There wasn’t one conservative on mueller team.   It’s well documenteded that obama leftovers are and were holed up in the beaurucracy.
Um, no.  http://www.businessinsider.com/lawyers-robert-mueller-hired-for-the-trump-russia-investigation-2017-6

Only two--or three at a stretch--of the key team members can be described to be even Democratic-leaning.  Most were in DOJ/DAs/etc long before Obama was president.

But so what? FBI agents aren't allowed to have political opinions? Or, are they only allowed political opinions you happen to share?  Those people are on the team solely because of their expertise in the appropriate areas.


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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1735 on: May 23, 2018, 08:29:31 am »
he won't be impeached. get over it.
마크


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1736 on: May 23, 2018, 11:02:58 am »
Only two--or three at a stretch--of the key team members can be described to be even Democratic-leaning.  Most were in DOJ/DAs/etc long before Obama was president.
For affiliation, you have to look beyond simple party identification. There's the Republican Never-Trumpers- NeoCons and Bushites. Basically the McCain-Romney-Bush wing of the party. It's doubtful that they would be impartial.


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1737 on: May 23, 2018, 11:20:29 am »
Christ, you've really bought into this 'Trump, man of action' thing, haven't you? 

That's a big IF, especially if you believe everything that the Israeli government feeds you. 

Again, it's like you watched something like World War Z and thought it was a reality. 

Well, when your march is openly planned and organized by a known terrorist organization which has repeatedly attacked Israel, it's kind of hard to get the benefit of the doubt that all you want is to end the blockade and to walk in and calmly present your list of demands.

Maybe if you stopped calling events a "Day of Rage" and instead, I don't know, "A Day of Hope" or "A Day of Peace" or "A Day of Change" or whatever, people might be less itchy on their trigger finger.

Quote
But the primary goal was ending the blockade

There's a way to do that- Utterly disarm and renounce terror. Gaza and Hamas have no need for weapons. They are utterly outclassed as a military force by Egypt and Israel. And as far as "resisting", renouncing their weapons and terror would be far more effective against Israel.

I'm not saying their cause is wrong, I'm saying their tactics are utterly awful and essentially moronic. When you choose moronic and idiotic tactics, you can end up with people dead.

Quote
For years, there was the possibility of moving the embassy to Israel, which no president did, because it was like throwing petrol on a fire.
The rest of the region issued a strongly worded letter of protest and went on with business. Basically everyone but Iran and Turkey did the equivalent of shrugging and saying "Who cares?" I mean, Europe and the Democrats were more pissed off about it than the rulers of the sacred cities. Frickin Fatah and the West Bank responded by shaking a few fists and then getting on with the day's business.

Besides, as your own article said, this was about the blockade.

Quote
Sheldon gives Trump 100 million dollars to help get elected and he moves the embassy.  That's money buying influence.

Both parties have mega donors.

Whether Adelson donated to Trump-supporting organizations BECAUSE Trump favored such a move or whether Trump made such a move because Adelson donated to Trump-supporting organizations is up for debate.

Quote
The NRA gives millions to Republicans to 'ignore' multiple school shootings (22 so far this year).
WRONG.

The NRA receives donations from its millions of members because they strongly believe in gun rights and expect the group to lobby for such actions.

Also your 22 school shootings statistic is garbage.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/02/19/parkland-school-shootings-not-new-normal-despite-statistics-stretching-truth-fox-column/349380002/

Quote
People died because he moved the embassy.

Again, your article says the protest was primarily about the blockade.


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1738 on: May 23, 2018, 11:33:26 am »
If you can't see anything inherently and ethically wrong from those two examples then you're in need of help.
1. Your first example is trash. Adelson is part of a bipartisan lobbying system. Either both parties are wrong or neither is.

2. Have you ever stopped to wonder why these mass school shootings are taking place more and more in the 2000s?

Malcolm Gladwell wrote about it and said that basically we're in a slow-motion riot since Columbine.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-violence

And as I said, I think the media attention is the number 1 factor. Combine that with the widespread use of anti-psychotics and boom.

And as the article shows- If it's not guns, they'll move on to bombs. Or trucks.


  • Mr C
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1739 on: May 23, 2018, 12:48:44 pm »
Only two--or three at a stretch--of the key team members can be described to be even Democratic-leaning.  Most were in DOJ/DAs/etc long before Obama was president.
For affiliation, you have to look beyond simple party identification. There's the Republican Never-Trumpers- NeoCons and Bushites. Basically the McCain-Romney-Bush wing of the party. It's doubtful that they would be impartial.
Having watched the Republicans in Congress ever since this presidency began, I have to agree with you--the Republicans are not impartial.  They have absolutely no sense of impartiality, decorum or anything close to a moral compass anymore. They seem virtually willing to destroy the DOJ and FBI in order to support this cretinous Cheeto.

I'm not sure that's what you meant, though.