Read 246858 times

  • elsbethm
  • Veteran

    • 124

    • September 29, 2016, 09:26:54 pm
    • gangwondo
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1700 on: May 17, 2018, 03:20:49 pm »
Way more possible than your 'Battle of the Hornburg' kind of situation.  You really need to tone down on the Hollywood stuff.
It's not you that lives on that border and is Israeli.

Would you just welcome them all in? Expect things to go swimmingly?

When people show up with molotovs, they aren't there for a sitdown strike and discussion seminar.

Defender of the Han AND Isreal! 
Whatta guy! :rolleyes:


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1701 on: May 17, 2018, 04:24:31 pm »
Way more possible than your 'Battle of the Hornburg' kind of situation.  You really need to tone down on the Hollywood stuff.
It's not you that lives on that border and is Israeli.

Would you just welcome them all in? Expect things to go swimmingly?

When people show up with molotovs, they aren't there for a sitdown strike and discussion seminar.

Defender of the Han AND Isreal! 
Whatta guy! :rolleyes:

I notice you didn't answer the question about what would have happened if they had been allowed to tear down the barrier and cross into Israel.

Instead you just attacked me personally, which has nothing to do with the issue.


  • zola
  • The Legend

    • 2671

    • September 30, 2012, 06:56:11 am
    • Korea
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1702 on: May 18, 2018, 10:14:31 am »
Way more possible than your 'Battle of the Hornburg' kind of situation.  You really need to tone down on the Hollywood stuff.
It's not you that lives on that border and is Israeli.

Would you just welcome them all in? Expect things to go swimmingly?

When people show up with molotovs, they aren't there for a sitdown strike and discussion seminar.

Defender of the Han AND Isreal! 
Whatta guy! :rolleyes:

I notice you didn't answer the question about what would have happened if they had been allowed to tear down the barrier and cross into Israel.

Instead you just attacked me personally, which has nothing to do with the issue.

And you didn't respond as to why Trump chose to move the embassy, knowing full well what would happen. Or why you are so inline with the pro-israeli lobby and their portrayal of the ongoing Intifada.
Kpip! - Martin 2018


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1703 on: May 18, 2018, 10:52:15 am »
And you didn't respond as to why Trump chose to move the embassy, knowing full well what would happen. Or why you are so inline with the pro-israeli lobby and their portrayal of the ongoing Intifada.

Trump chose to move the embassy because it would bolster his relationship with Israel (and more importantly, might convince Israel's intelligence operations via Mossad to sniff out any deep state plots against him), appeal to his evangelical base, signal to voters and the world that he is "different" and will take bold moves, and to make it clear to people negotiating MidEast peace that the reality of Jerusalem is reality- It's Israel's and it's not going anywhere. Get used to it or spend the rest of your lives screaming and raging about it.

The rest of the Arab world has moved on. Heck, it seems that Fatah and the West Bank has tacitly moved on. The only people who haven't moved on are Hamas, The Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda, the EU, and Democrats.

Now again, what would have happened if those protesters/terrorists had been allowed to tear down the barrier and enter?


  • zola
  • The Legend

    • 2671

    • September 30, 2012, 06:56:11 am
    • Korea
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1704 on: May 18, 2018, 11:16:42 am »
And you didn't respond as to why Trump chose to move the embassy, knowing full well what would happen. Or why you are so inline with the pro-israeli lobby and their portrayal of the ongoing Intifada.

Trump chose to move the embassy because it would bolster his relationship with Israel (and more importantly, might convince Israel's intelligence operations via Mossad to sniff out any deep state plots against him), appeal to his evangelical base, signal to voters and the world that he is "different" and will take bold moves, and to make it clear to people negotiating MidEast peace that the reality of Jerusalem is reality- It's Israel's and it's not going anywhere. Get used to it or spend the rest of your lives screaming and raging about it.

The rest of the Arab world has moved on. Heck, it seems that Fatah and the West Bank has tacitly moved on. The only people who haven't moved on are Hamas, The Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda, the EU, and Democrats.

Now again, what would have happened if those protesters/terrorists had been allowed to tear down the barrier and enter?
They would probably try to get some revenge for being forced to live like animals in an open-air prison. You treat people like animals for years and then expect them to want to play nicely? This is a situation of Israels making. They are at a minimum, 50% at fault. Israel welcomed Trump's election with open arms and he absolutely had no need to move the embassy. He had stacks of good will going foward. He did it as a "look at my huge cock" type move.

No one is kidding themselves as to the situation in Israel-Palestine. But again, you just completely buy into the Israeli side. You think you are above the fray of partisan reporting, but you aren't. In almost every interpretation of international law, Israel is an illegal state and commits massive human right violations on a daily basis. Fine if you think it's a necessary evil, but your arrogance in how you see others of "believing hook line and sinker", when you do exactly the same thing. And then the added arrogance of thinking you understand the behind the scenes machinations. You really don't. Nor does anyone else really. We have about 10% view of what is actually going on and then we draw our own conclusions. Some more educated than others.

Kpip! - Martin 2018


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1705 on: May 18, 2018, 11:17:36 am »
And you didn't respond as to why Trump chose to move the embassy, knowing full well what would happen. Or why you are so inline with the pro-israeli lobby and their portrayal of the ongoing Intifada.

Trump chose to move the embassy because it would bolster his relationship with Israel (and more importantly, might convince Israel's intelligence operations via Mossad to sniff out any deep state plots against him), appeal to his evangelical base, signal to voters and the world that he is "different" and will take bold moves, and to make it clear to people negotiating MidEast peace that the reality of Jerusalem is reality- It's Israel's and it's not going anywhere. Get used to it or spend the rest of your lives screaming and raging about it.

The rest of the Arab world has moved on. Heck, it seems that Fatah and the West Bank has tacitly moved on. The only people who haven't moved on are Hamas, The Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda, the EU, and Democrats.

Now again, what would have happened if those protesters/terrorists had been allowed to tear down the barrier and enter?

Tell me more about what you know regarding the deep state.


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1706 on: May 18, 2018, 11:27:10 am »
Tell me more about what you know regarding the deep state.
The Deep State is openly acknowledged as existing in Egypt, Turkey, etc. No one would be shocked to hear that there is a shadowy cabal of powerbrokers in say, Russia and China.

Why do we think we don't have one? Has the CIA and FBI been reliable and upstanding throughout their history? Didn't J. Edgar Hoover have an unprecedented amount of power? Government backed coups throughout the Cold War. Eisenhower referring to the Military-Industrial Complex. Five-Eyes.

Is it the full on stuff of Infowars/XFiles conspiracy nonsense? Probably not. Is there a certain established order that views its interests as being threatened by Trump and may react in a grey manner? Likely.


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1707 on: May 18, 2018, 11:31:06 am »
Tell me more about what you know regarding the deep state.
The Deep State is openly acknowledged as existing in Egypt, Turkey, etc. No one would be shocked to hear that there is a shadowy cabal of powerbrokers in say, Russia and China.

Why do we think we don't have one? Has the CIA and FBI been reliable and upstanding throughout their history? Didn't J. Edgar Hoover have an unprecedented amount of power? Government backed coups throughout the Cold War. Eisenhower referring to the Military-Industrial Complex. Five-Eyes.

Is it the full on stuff of Infowars/XFiles conspiracy nonsense? Probably not. Is there a certain established order that views its interests as being threatened by Trump and may react in a grey manner? Likely.

Just wanted to make sure.


  • gogators!
  • The Legend

    • 3564

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1708 on: May 18, 2018, 12:19:48 pm »
"Kim Jong Un is going to be very, very happy." Because we want all dictators who routinely place their citizens in death camps to be happy as pigs in shite.

trumpy is frothing at the mouth over the (im)possibility of a Nobel prize and appears ready to give kim pretty much whatever it takes to get it. He's going to end up with, if he's lucky, a deal similar though weaker to the Iran deal, the one that was, according to him, so, so terrible.

Or maybe since he supports Israeli apartheid, he's cool with the death camps, maybe wants to brand them and get in on the action.



Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1709 on: May 18, 2018, 12:39:43 pm »
'Did China Just Bribe Trump to Undermine National Security?'

Quote
In the past few years ZTE, a Chinese electronics company that, among other things, makes cheap smartphones, has gotten into repeated trouble with the U.S. government. Many of its products contain U.S. technology — technology that, by law, must not be exported to embargoed nations, including North Korea and Iran. But ZTE was circumventing the ban.

Initially, the company was fined $1.2 billion. Then, when it became clear that the company had rewarded rather than punished the executives involved, the Commerce Department forbade U.S. technology companies from selling components to ZTE for the next seven years.

And two weeks ago the Pentagon banned sales of ZTE phones on military bases, following warnings from intelligence agencies that the Chinese government may be using the company’s products to conduct espionage.

All of which made it very strange indeed to see Trump suddenly declare that he was working with President Xi of China to help save ZTE — “Too many jobs in China lost” — and that he was ordering the Commerce Department to make it happen.

It’s possible that Trump was just trying to offer an olive branch amid what looks like a possible trade war. But why choose such a flagrant example of Chinese misbehavior? Which was why many eyes turned to Indonesia, where a Chinese state-owned company just announced a big investment in a project in which the Trump Organization has a substantial stake.

That investment, by the way, is part of the Belt and Road project, a multinational infrastructure initiative China is using to reinforce its economic centrality — and geopolitical influence — across Eurasia. Meanwhile, whatever happened to that Trump infrastructure plan?

Back to ZTE: Was there a quid pro quo? We may never know. But this wasn’t the first time the Trump administration made a peculiar foreign policy move that seems associated with Trump family business interests. Last year the administration, bizarrely, backed a Saudi blockade of Qatar, a Middle Eastern nation that also happens to be the site of a major U.S. military base. Why? Well, the move came shortly after the Qataris refused to invest $500 million in 666 Fifth Avenue, a troubled property owned by the family of Jared Kushner, the president’s son-in-law.

And now it looks as if Qatar may be about to make a deal on 666 Fifth Avenue after all. I wonder why?

Crazy that this is happening in the highest office in the land, right before everyone's eyes.


  • Adel
  • Expert Waygook

    • 630

    • January 30, 2015, 12:50:26 am
    • The Abyss
    more
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1710 on: May 18, 2018, 03:52:07 pm »
Tell me more about what you know regarding the deep state.
Probably not. Is there a certain established order that views its interests as being threatened by Trump and may react in a grey manner? Likely.

More specifically though, the deep state is a term that retards use who don't understand the rule of law, separation of powers doctrine and the basic principles and broader historical context on which their constitution was built. 


  • Mr C
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1650

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1711 on: May 19, 2018, 12:01:32 am »
Tell me more about what you know regarding the deep state.
The Deep State is openly acknowledged as existing in Egypt, Turkey, etc. No one would be shocked to hear that there is a shadowy cabal of powerbrokers in say, Russia and China.

Why do we think we don't have one? Has the CIA and FBI been reliable and upstanding throughout their history? Didn't J. Edgar Hoover have an unprecedented amount of power? Government backed coups throughout the Cold War. Eisenhower referring to the Military-Industrial Complex. Five-Eyes.

Huh.  I thought the idea of "Deep State" as espoused by such fine journalists as Sean Hannity (who we recently found out phones almost daily with the President--imagine if that was Obama and, say, Rachel Maddow?!?) is that it is a SECRET cabal, apparently composed almost entirely of life-long registered Republicans lauded as fair-dealers by both sides for decades, devoted only to bringing down Donald J Trump.  They saw him coming decades ago, it seems, emplaced themselves surreptitiously over many years in order to thwart his plan to continue doing in an even more egregious and disgraceful manner what the right-wing leadership has been doing since the early eighties.

It is curious that they waited only for this Trump guy to come along.  He more-or-less continues the far right agenda of enriching the "military-industrial complex", stealing from the poor to give to the rich, stacking the courts (Gorsuch for example), vilifiying immigrants and "others", preventing poor and colored people from exercising the franchise, pulling a Cabinet from the Fortune 500, and raping the environment.

Where was this "Deep State" during the Reagan, or more particularly, the George W Bush administration?  Where were the House/Senate/FBI investigations then? Oh, yeah, Casey "committed suicide" and Ollie North was found guilty of numerous crimes. Fitting for the new NRA head. ( FTR, it's clear 2A allows people to own guns, since we need "a well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State"--well-regulated being the operative phrase.)

Leaving aside egregious pay-for-play, obstruction of justice, and collusion with hostile foreign nations, how is this administration so different? 

The answer is: IT ISN'T.  But what is different is "egregious pay-for-play, obstruction of justice, and collusion with hostile foreign nations".

Incidentally, no one would be shocked by a shadowy cabal of power-brokers in Russia, it's called Putin's friends or the oligarchs, and 13 of them have been charged with crimes by Mueller. 

And it's curious you mention Egypt, Turkey, China and Russia with regards to their "Deep State" since they are indisputably despotic countries who USE their "deep state" systems to FURTHER their despotic goals.  Well done, Martino!  You have proved how wrong you are!


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1712 on: May 19, 2018, 08:31:35 am »
Huh.  I thought the idea of "Deep State" as espoused by such fine journalists as Sean Hannity (who we recently found out phones almost daily with the President--imagine if that was Obama and, say, Rachel Maddow?!?) is that it is a SECRET cabal, apparently composed almost entirely of life-long registered Republicans lauded as fair-dealers by both sides for decades, devoted only to bringing down Donald J Trump.
The idea of the Deep State and the Military-Industrial Complex was around when Hannity was in diapers (again, Eisenhower). It is not Republican or Democrat but is instead NeoLiberal/NeoConservative. It is a holdover from the Cold War and would react just as strongly to a Bernie Sanders/Dennis Kucinich/Ron Paul presidency as it would with Trump. They aren't there because of Trump, they were there as part of our apparatus against Communism. They continued on, drifting about in the 1990s as good times rolled and everyone found their footing, and then came back with a bang during the War on Terror. It has also absorbed business interests.

Quote
He more-or-less continues the far right agenda of enriching the "military-industrial complex", stealing from the poor to give to the rich, stacking the courts (Gorsuch for example), vilifiying immigrants and "others", preventing poor and colored people from exercising the franchise, pulling a Cabinet from the Fortune 500, and raping the environment.
What Trump threatened was economic upheaval- Tariffs, economic nationalism AND national security upheaval-Trying to get us out of Syria, building the wall and ending immigration, detente with Russia, etc.

Quote
Leaving aside egregious pay-for-play, obstruction of justice, and collusion with hostile foreign nations
You think Trump's administration differs from its predecessors on this? WOW.

Quote
Incidentally, no one would be shocked by a shadowy cabal of power-brokers in Russia, it's called Putin's friends or the oligarchs, and 13 of them have been charged with crimes by Mueller.
Everyone is linked to Putin. All one has to do in order to be "linked to Putin" is be Russian.

That doesn't mean Putin controls every single thing that happens in Russia.

Do you seriously think that someone in Russia in 2015 presented a plan of action to Putin that went something along the lines of "We know how to gain power and influence- support Donald Trump for President. Everyone is saying he'll win. He's reliable and won't betray us. He isn't suffering from mental illness or dementia. And he knows how to keep his mouth shut. And we'll do this with $2 million in facebook ads while Hillary Clinton spends $1 billion.

That kind of plan gets your career ruined at best, you drug out into the street and shot at worst.

Quote
And it's curious you mention Egypt, Turkey, China and Russia with regards to their "Deep State" since they are indisputably despotic countries who USE their "deep state" systems to FURTHER their despotic goals.  Well done, Martino!  You have proved how wrong you are!

The CIA has a history of overthrowing rulers and engaging in propaganda for political purposes yet you somehow naively believe they'd never do that on their own country?

J. Edgar Hoover spied on MLK. Get a frickin clue dude.


  • Mr C
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1650

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1713 on: May 19, 2018, 11:12:52 am »

Quote
And it's curious you mention Egypt, Turkey, China and Russia with regards to their "Deep State" since they are indisputably despotic countries who USE their "deep state" systems to FURTHER their despotic goals.  Well done, Martino!  You have proved how wrong you are!

The CIA has a history of overthrowing rulers and engaging in propaganda for political purposes yet you somehow naively believe they'd never do that on their own country?

J. Edgar Hoover spied on MLK. Get a frickin clue dude.
One thing I surely don't need from you is "a frickin clue".  Dude.

The US is not the Turkey of Ataturk.  Please read: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/20/there-is-no-deep-state


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1714 on: May 19, 2018, 07:32:10 pm »
Well if the editor of The New Yorker says so, it must be true.


  • Savant
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1929

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1715 on: May 20, 2018, 09:04:03 am »
Trump welcomes Melania back to the White House after her hospital surgery.

Except, she went to stay at her parents' house.

Fake News from President Orange.


  • gogators!
  • The Legend

    • 3564

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1716 on: May 20, 2018, 10:04:27 am »
Huh.  I thought the idea of "Deep State" as espoused by such fine journalists as Sean Hannity (who we recently found out phones almost daily with the President--imagine if that was Obama and, say, Rachel Maddow?!?) is that it is a SECRET cabal, apparently composed almost entirely of life-long registered Republicans lauded as fair-dealers by both sides for decades, devoted only to bringing down Donald J Trump.
The idea of the Deep State and the Military-Industrial Complex was around when Hannity was in diapers (again, Eisenhower). It is not Republican or Democrat but is instead NeoLiberal/NeoConservative. It is a holdover from the Cold War and would react just as strongly to a Bernie Sanders/Dennis Kucinich/Ron Paul presidency as it would with Trump. They aren't there because of Trump, they were there as part of our apparatus against Communism. They continued on, drifting about in the 1990s as good times rolled and everyone found their footing, and then came back with a bang during the War on Terror. It has also absorbed business interests.

Quote
He more-or-less continues the far right agenda of enriching the "military-industrial complex", stealing from the poor to give to the rich, stacking the courts (Gorsuch for example), vilifiying immigrants and "others", preventing poor and colored people from exercising the franchise, pulling a Cabinet from the Fortune 500, and raping the environment.
What Trump threatened was economic upheaval- Tariffs, economic nationalism AND national security upheaval-Trying to get us out of Syria, building the wall and ending immigration, detente with Russia, etc.

Quote
Leaving aside egregious pay-for-play, obstruction of justice, and collusion with hostile foreign nations
You think Trump's administration differs from its predecessors on this? WOW.

Quote
Incidentally, no one would be shocked by a shadowy cabal of power-brokers in Russia, it's called Putin's friends or the oligarchs, and 13 of them have been charged with crimes by Mueller.
Everyone is linked to Putin. All one has to do in order to be "linked to Putin" is be Russian.

That doesn't mean Putin controls every single thing that happens in Russia.

Do you seriously think that someone in Russia in 2015 presented a plan of action to Putin that went something along the lines of "We know how to gain power and influence- support Donald Trump for President. Everyone is saying he'll win. He's reliable and won't betray us. He isn't suffering from mental illness or dementia. And he knows how to keep his mouth shut. And we'll do this with $2 million in facebook ads while Hillary Clinton spends $1 billion.

That kind of plan gets your career ruined at best, you drug out into the street and shot at worst.

Quote
And it's curious you mention Egypt, Turkey, China and Russia with regards to their "Deep State" since they are indisputably despotic countries who USE their "deep state" systems to FURTHER their despotic goals.  Well done, Martino!  You have proved how wrong you are!

The CIA has a history of overthrowing rulers and engaging in propaganda for political purposes yet you somehow naively believe they'd never do that on their own country?

J. Edgar Hoover spied on MLK. Get a frickin clue dude.
To summarize your argument:
Putin is a great guy despite all the evidence, trump is dirty, he's taking bribes that threaten national security but that's OK because what's a little graft between friends and despots are just doing what despots do so it's all good.


  • Mr C
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1650

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1717 on: May 20, 2018, 10:06:10 am »
Well if the editor of The New Yorker says so, it must be true.
Seemed to me a pretty closely reasoned article. Any flaws of logic or errors of fact you would like to point out? 


Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1718 on: May 21, 2018, 11:03:22 am »
Well if the editor of The New Yorker says so, it must be true.
Seemed to me a pretty closely reasoned article. Any flaws of logic or errors of fact you would like to point out?

For starters, the author uses a single incident in 1971 as evidence that there is no Deep State. Also, people differ over what the Deep State is and what it constitutes. Some see at as completely unified, others see it as perhaps blocs of differing interests who still coalesce (for comparison, say the Wehrmacht vs. the SS vs. the Propaganda Ministry, all of which vie for power and influence).

Regarldess, the article does little to actually address the question of- "Is there a Deep State, and what evidence is there for or against it?" Most of the article is either the case of Deep Throat or what amounts to speculating on Trump's motives and the problems his presidency poses.

I read the article looking for information on the Deep State and why it doesn't exist. What I got was a brief history of Watergate and why Trump sucks.


  • Savant
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1929

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #1719 on: May 21, 2018, 11:11:06 am »
How do you provide evidence of something that doesn’t exist?

So, the “Deep State” is a question of faith then?