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Career Venue => Contract, and Job Related Issues => Topic started by: asiaman on June 21, 2016, 03:57:11 pm

Title: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: asiaman on June 21, 2016, 03:57:11 pm
I looked at public school (EPIK) jobs once. I saw that the salary when you first join is about 2.2-2.3m won per month, something like that. Salaries should be higher especially if you're already an experienced teacher. Why would I want to start at that level when I have a number of years' experience. Also teachers are invariably just out of college and have student debts to pay off. Salaries should IMO start at about 3m won and go up to 4m won per month. That's a decent salary then. That's what you get paid as a teacher in PS in your home country so why shouldn't Korea pay the same if they want you to travel all the way over there? It's the same with Taiwan. I looked at that last month and PS pays 68000Taiwan dollars a month with the 5000 housing included in that. That's ALL they pay! And you have to pay your own flight out there before it gets reimbursed.
AS it happens, I'll be starting on 2.3m soon but at a hagwon. But I have the opportunity of getting the head's position with a higher salary so I'm looking at 3m won there. So I don't mind starting off at 2.3m

Should all get higher salaries. we all got bachelor's degrees and CELTAs and CELTAs aren't cheap to get. What to do about it though? Hold demonstrations in the street outside MOE? You get 2.3 m won working at the local DIY store in America and UK don't you? don't even need a bachelor's and CElTA for that. :afro:
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: maximmm on June 21, 2016, 04:42:12 pm
So says a poster who plans to buy a hagwon on E2 visa and recommends others to teach illegally.  :laugh:
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: YoungMin on June 21, 2016, 04:47:26 pm
Welcome back Sonny.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: waygookinhanguk on June 21, 2016, 04:59:22 pm
UK taxes are much higher and the 2.3m in the DIY store doesn't come with a furnished apartment and a one month bonus for finishing the contract.

Salaries should be higher but let's not compare apples with oranges.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: Action Jackson on June 21, 2016, 05:09:21 pm
Welcome back Sonny.
I'm pretty sure it's UKteacher, though I know Sonny likes to use that emoticon.  From UKteachers' very first post:
Quote
I've been trying to get a job in Korea for a few months and most jobs I see are 2.1m won
That's £1216 or about £15000 a year. Why are wages so low in Korea then? For that wage you have to work your backside off, working 10 hour shifts and some saturdays.
You can earn 15k as a customer service advisor in the UK and you don't even need a degree to do that. You need a degree to teach in Korea. Shouldn't wages be 20k at least?
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: asiaman on June 21, 2016, 05:10:54 pm
I wouldn't teach illegally in Korea. Too risky. i only said that cuz he's only got 2 month's left, won't be getting his flight or severance, so he has nothing to lose.

Yeh taxes in the UK are about 23%. What's the net salary on 2.3m won per month, do you know? You're right too about the accommodation being free in Korea. Good ent it? But I really don't like getting paid the same as a low ball shop assistant in the diY store.
Plus I got my own house in the UK so I don't need to pay rent as it's all paid off.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: eggieguffer on June 21, 2016, 05:17:51 pm
I wouldn't teach illegally in Korea. Too risky. i only said that cuz he's only got 2 month's left, won't be getting his flight or severance, so he has nothing to lose.

Yeh taxes in the UK are about 23%. What's the net salary on 2.3m won per month, do you know? You're right too about the accommodation being free in Korea. Good ent it? But I really don't like getting paid the same as a low ball shop assistant in the diY store.
Plus I got my own house in the UK so I don't need to pay rent as it's all paid off.

Apply for the Hong Kong NET programme
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: asiaman on June 21, 2016, 05:30:03 pm
LOL you're joking. That NET/SNET programme in Hong Kong pays 50000hong kong dollars a month with the housing allowance. But they prefer people with english degrees. The competition will be immense for that salary. But HK is expensive to rent in I believe.

I doubt I'd get that job so no point wasting my time applying. Some teacher on another teacher's forum was asking about it the other day. he has 18 years teaching experience as a PE teacher and some maths but he hasn't got a CELTA or TESOL. He was asking people if he should do a course to get one so he can get this snet job. He hasn't got any experience teaching EFL so I doubt he'd get the job either as you need a minimum of a year's experience teaching English.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: asiaman on June 21, 2016, 05:42:11 pm
I've since been offered a job in UAE for 11000AED plus accommodation and flights.
But I would prefer to get to Korea and get the head teacher's job it will be almost the same as 11000AED then.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: Imogen1991 on June 21, 2016, 06:01:55 pm
I've since been offered a job in UAE for 11000AED plus accommodation and flights.
But I would prefer to get to Korea and get the head teacher's job it will be almost the same as 11000AED then.

cool story bro, sounds like you should do that then and quit your complaining
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: Action Jackson on June 21, 2016, 06:25:48 pm
I've since been offered a job in UAE for 11000AED plus accommodation and flights.
But I would prefer to get to Korea and get the head teacher's job it will be almost the same as 11000AED then.

cool story bro, sounds like you should do that then and quit your complaining
This might actually be sound advice.  If you're teaching adults here, is it split shifts?  I've never done it but have heard many times it's pretty difficult to pull off.  I'd also be concerned that a hagwon is offering a newbie the head teacher job, to me, that says something is wrong.  What I mean by this is, people are either leaving, or nobody wants to do that job because it sucks (in my experience, a lot of extra duties but not the pay to justify it).  I also could be wrong in this regard, but nobody I know who has been a head teacher has gotten a 700,000 won bump in pay, mostly it's 100,000 or 200,000 if you're really lucky. 
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: asiaman on June 21, 2016, 06:49:14 pm
3m won per month is just £1766, just over £20k a year. That's not an unreasonable amount of money to pay for a head teacher's position. It's still less than the UAE salary of 11000AEd cos that's £2000 a month but I'm prepared to forego the 200 quid difference just to be in Korea and Asia. There are no split shifts, it's 2 til 10pm mon to fri with weekends off. The visa is much easier to get than a UAE work visa I think and cheaper.

If they're only going to give me 100-200k won more then they can do one. I might accept 2.8m won minimum. I'm not bothered about doing the job. I can handle the pressure I think. Just pay up properly that's all. How much do hagwons with a decent amount of students make per year? This one's supposed to have a number of teachers and students. I asked the recruiter if they're ok and he said they're stable. Is there a companies house website for Korean companies to look at their turnover?
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: Mr. Pink on June 21, 2016, 08:39:11 pm
the lowest rank of pay actually for the Hong Kong NET scheme is 3,400 US Dollars - not HK dollars. housing allowance is around 2,000 US dollars last time i checked.

not sure what the cost of living is. the pay seems good but the program is really competitive and there is a long wait list of very qualified people for it.

Taiwan pays about the same in Won for PS jobs but you have to get your own housing. although cost of living there is way cheaper than SK. again you need to be a certified teacher to get PS jobs in Taiwan.

this is what korea doesn't realize. they say they want qualified teachers, but aren't prepared to pay to get them.

asiadude is kinda right. if they want to change the program to fully-certified teachers only they'd need to pay around 3 million Won per month, and then housing on top of that.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: Action Jackson on June 21, 2016, 08:57:33 pm
3m won per month is just £1766, just over £20k a year. That's not an unreasonable amount of money to pay for a head teacher's position. It's still less than the UAE salary of 11000AEd cos that's £2000 a month but I'm prepared to forego the 200 quid difference just to be in Korea and Asia. There are no split shifts, it's 2 til 10pm mon to fri with weekends off. The visa is much easier to get than a UAE work visa I think and cheaper.

If they're only going to give me 100-200k won more then they can do one. I might accept 2.8m won minimum. I'm not bothered about doing the job. I can handle the pressure I think. Just pay up properly that's all. How much do hagwons with a decent amount of students make per year? This one's supposed to have a number of teachers and students. I asked the recruiter if they're ok and he said they're stable. Is there a companies house website for Korean companies to look at their turnover?
Your best bet is to talk to the teachers who already work there to see what's up.  I do know that 2-10 are not teaching adult hours.  Another thing you need to keep in mind, it doesn't matter how much a hagwon makes, hagwon owners are extremely cheap when it comes to their teachers.  I wish you the best in your negotiations but even at 2.8 I don't think that's very realistic, I'd be really surprised if you managed to get 2.5. 
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: asiaman on June 21, 2016, 09:05:01 pm
Yeh I am a certified teacher and the salary in Taiwan includes the housing allowance of 5000 taiwan dollars per month. You get reimbursed for your flight in the 4th paycheck.
So the basic salary is 63000 and 5000 housing total 68000 for a bachelor's degree, certified teacher.

Now I just enquired about processing a visa for this UAE job which is paying £2000 a month for a 2 year contract. You have to notarise and apostille your degree cert and CELTA and then you have to legalise it at the UAE embassy. If you use a visa agency, the lowest is £78 to legalise it per document. SO all in all for two documents, it's going to cost 30(Notarise) + 30 (apostille) + 78 (legalise) times 2 which I make to be138 x 2= £276.

Then there's the cost of the flight which is coming up at £508 return at Xmas. All these costs are reimbursed on arrival in the UAE but the school won't pay for the flight upfront because they told me they've had teachers not turn up in the past and they've lost a lot of money.

it's cheaper to go to Korea as the visa costsjust over £100 I think and the flight is pre-paid. I've already apostilled the documents which cost about£120 altogether.

So I have to weigh up going to Korea or the UAE this week. I prefer Korea as I like Asia, The UAE is alright if you hire a car but there's not much to do except hang out with your colleagues at the villa after work. Apparently, I'll be teaching 3 classes a day in UAE but got to be there for 7 hours. Doesn't quite make sense to me 3 hours our of 7 but that's what I read in the contract anyway. :afro:
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: asiaman on June 21, 2016, 09:46:07 pm

[/quote]  I wish you the best in your negotiations but even at 2.8 I don't think that's very realistic, I'd be really surprised if you managed to get 2.5. 
[/quote]2.5 is just £1472 per month which is about £500 less than what I'm offered in UAE. 2.5m won is a cheapskate salary for a head teacher. Look they're putting say 6 students in a class all paying what £20 each so they get £120 per class gross. They pay 2.5m won or £1472 per month divide that by 120 hours  month comes to just £12,20 per hour. That's too low for a head teacher per hour. It needs to be nearer £15 which would make is £1800 a month which is 3m won a month like I suggested i would be happy with. i can't see why £15 an hour isn't achievable.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: asiaman on June 21, 2016, 10:11:18 pm
what if I negotiate with them 2.5m won or 2.6m won then with permission to work somewhere on Saturdays or during the morning before I start work at 2. It states in the contract I am not allowed to work for another employer but I could ask them if they will allow it. then i can make 3m a month
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: west coast tatterdemalion on June 21, 2016, 11:33:29 pm
Well, rotund chap, it depends upon YOU. If you are looking for money, EFL is not the right industry. You'd be better off getting a sales job back home or something that has more potential for long term growth. I like to make money as much as the next person, but it is not the most important thing to me. Never has and never will. You also have to look at a variety of factors. In Korea, you basically work a part-time job. Usually 30 hours or less as opposed to the 40+ hour grind back home. Also, many jobs in Korea are cupcakes..no stress and plenty of time to do things during the time that you are supposed to be "working." Also, as others have stated, our housing is provided(a HUGE advantage) and we get the year end bonus, flight reimbursement, yada, yada. In Korea, I've got tons of disposable income. I take good vacations every year, and bank a decent amount of money. Yeah, it would be nice if salaries were higher, but that's the way it goes. If you have student debt, well, then your experience will be quite different. But if you are debt free and not a profligate, then you'll have a nice, comfortable existence here. However, if you are obsessed with saving money and hoard every won, then your life will probably suck monkey sack here.
Remember..it is not how much you earn, it is how much you save.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: asiaman on June 22, 2016, 12:37:09 am
I wouldn't even be able to get a sales job with my CV. It's all English teacher, English teacher, music teacher, English teacher.....etc
When I send my CV off to other kinds of jobs, I don't even hear anything back from them at all. I've even applied for some music industry jobs and not heard or not enough experience. I'd have to rewrite my CV and references to be able to get a different job. Employers aren't interested in the fact you've been a teacher. It means nothing outside the teaching world.

Most teachers are on around 25 contact hours a week plus office hours. 30 is where it starts to get a bit busy. In Saudi, teachers do about 4 hours a day so it's quite relaxing there. I worked for Berlitz for a month and I was doing 31.5 hours a week due to rise to 36 hours contact but they quit me. 14 euro an hour they paid, that's all but with 36 hours, it's a tidy sum.

I'm a licensed teacher at home so I can apply for international schools and I've got an offer from one in the UAE but the salary isn't really a proper international school salary. 11000AED (£2000) a month. Should be £2500 or £3000 really to be a proper IS salary.  You can make a salesman's salary teaching if you get the right school but most of them offer you your salary depending on what payscale you're on back home or in your current job. That's how it works in International schools. I know one teacher in Angola IS and they pay aroun $60k US plus $12k overseas allowances and free accommodation and flights. That's how good an IS salary can be. And he has loads of holidays all paid too.

Anyway, I'd rather get less and work in Korea. I don't have debt, just £1000 old student loan that's been hanging around the last 10 years and about £1000 for other things so £2k altogether, not a lot.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: solveit on June 22, 2016, 12:50:24 am
You can't compare a head teacher's job in a hagwon to a head teacher's job in a regular school. Plus, unless you're totally fluent in Korean, it's unlikely you'll be the real head teacher, it's more likely you'll be the head foreign teacher. Big difference. I'm the head foreign teacher at my hagwon, it came with a 200k pay raise, nowhere near the 700k you're hoping for, and I negotiated them up from 100k. I have fewer teaching hours, but a heck of a lot more work. Unless your hagwon has already offered 700k, I wouldn't bank on anywhere near that.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: asiaman on June 22, 2016, 01:00:03 am
You can't compare a head teacher's job in a hagwon to a head teacher's job in a regular school.
I wasn't :afro:


Well how do you know I won't be able to negotiate 700k more? Yes, it's likely to be the head foreign teacher I guess not the head of the school.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: orionchocopie on June 22, 2016, 07:42:09 am
Well how do you know I won't be able to negotiate 700k more? Yes, it's likely to be the head foreign teacher I guess not the head of the school.
Because we know how things work here, and we've seen your posts.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: Seoul cruiser on June 22, 2016, 07:57:10 am
I've since been offered a job in UAE for 11000AED plus accommodation and flights.
But I would prefer to get to Korea and get the head teacher's job it will be almost the same as 11000AED then.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: good luck with that Hagwon and "Head teacher's job"....  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: Seoul cruiser on June 22, 2016, 08:00:19 am
You can't compare a head teacher's job in a hagwon to a head teacher's job in a regular school.
I wasn't :afro:


Well how do you know I won't be able to negotiate 700k more? Yes, it's likely to be the head foreign teacher I guess not the head of the school.

Good luck with that as well. I am sure you will be able to beat out the competition who holds master degrees to get that 3 million won a month.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: SkidMarx on June 22, 2016, 08:02:07 am
Considering that we get free accommodations and considering how easy the job is, I don't think the pay is all that bad. I've seen PS teachers in Seoul and Anyang who had full, two bedroom apartments. It was ridiculous and seems to explain why they are running out of money. I know that isn't always the case but my current PS apartment is bigger and nicer than anything any academy ever gave me. The only real drag is unstable funding and getting let go because they "can't afford you" even if both you and the school want you to stay. That's no good for anyone.

I actually had a friend in a public middle school who had hardly any work to do and they ran out of funding. He was there for years and years and so he was at the highest pay grade. Now he works at a private public school (still not exactly sure how they work) and has a regular 22 class a week schedule and he complains incessantly because he actually has to work as hard as the rest of us, which still isn't that hard. Most friends I knew in public before I got in were slackers of the highest order. One guy left work one day to go have margaritas and lunch with some hagwon friends of ours and no one said anything or even noticed he was gone. He'd brag about sleeping in the sick bed in the spare room during desk warming. Honestly, if you have a decent coteacher and work in a halfway decent location, these gigs are easy and there is tons of down time for personal growth opportunities.

If the schools were to start hiring actual, qualified teachers instead of just any old person with a degree and a dodgy TEFL certificate, then I might agree that wages should be a bit more competitive. But that isn't the case.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: Schellib39 on June 22, 2016, 08:16:17 am
asiaman, your posts are quite comical. Keep them coming, I quite enjoy reading them over my morning coffee.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: Pennypie on June 22, 2016, 08:17:40 am
I'd rather work here than be on my feet for 8 hours a day at somewhere like B&Q and dealing with the general public.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: solveit on June 22, 2016, 08:21:10 am
You can't compare a head teacher's job in a hagwon to a head teacher's job in a regular school.
I wasn't :afro:


Well how do you know I won't be able to negotiate 700k more? Yes, it's likely to be the head foreign teacher I guess not the head of the school.

Well, you say things like 2.5 is a cheapskate salary for a head teacher, and you're specifically referring to a hagwon job, yet you have  no actual knowlegde of what that posotion implies, so how can you know if it's a cheapskate salary?

Despite the fact that you have lots of previous teaching experience, to any hagwon that you go into as a new teacher, you're not worth much more than an unexperienced new graduate. Why? Because they don't know how you will work out for them.

Hagwons are businesses. It's all about the retention and recruitment of students. If the students/parents don't like you, they'll quit, and that loses the hagwon money. If they do like you, and they stay, then you're in a strong position to negotiate a higher salary and other benefits.

I get paid more than the 3mil you're hoping for as head foreign teacher, but I've been at my hagwon for 4 years, have a high retention rate, and actually have waiting lists for 2 of my classes, so I've had no difficulty in negotiating respectable annual increases, plus extra vacation time.

The salary that you're hoping for isn't impossible, but it is highly unlikely to happen in a single increment as you're hoping.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: Imogen1991 on June 22, 2016, 08:36:22 am
Asiaman is def UKteacher's sock. At least I hope so. I can't handle this much stupidity coming from 2 separate people
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: annataleen on June 22, 2016, 08:43:40 am
The OP posted about this in the Incheon English Teachers Jobs Market group. When I read it, I thought "Why would someone post about this in this group?" and "Oh, it has to be UK Teacher!"

Now I see this thread and there is no doubt.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: yirgacheffe on June 22, 2016, 09:08:02 am
A lot of people have already responded with pretty much the same answers but here goes:

I looked at public school (EPIK) jobs once. I saw that the salary when you first join is about 2.2-2.3m won per month, something like that. Salaries should be higher especially if you're already an experienced teacher. Why would I want to start at that level when I have a number of years' experience.
You're in the wrong field if you're looking to make a lot of money. Of course it's possible to make the amount that you want, but it's laughable that you think they're going to give it to you when you arrive fresh off the plane. Unfortunately, your previous experiences don't count for much unless they are from Korea, and I assume that's especially true for hagwons when they need to see your worth first-hand.

Also teachers are invariably just out of college and have student debts to pay off.
All the more reason to start off low. If you're just out of college, you're even less likely to have any real experience. And besides, why would the school care about your personal financial situation? Oh, you have student debts? Why don't we increase your pay so you can get that sorted out. While we're at it, here's a pot of rainbows and some baby unicorns.

Salaries should IMO start at about 3m won and go up to 4m won per month. That's a decent salary then. That's what you get paid as a teacher in PS in your home country so why shouldn't Korea pay the same if they want you to travel all the way over there?
This is mostly just because there are people willing to come over for that salary for the chance to be in Korea (or more likely, to be close to Japan). Also, you really can't compare the salaries like that with your home country. This was already mentioned, but there are several factors that determine what the actual value of your salary is: taxes, cost of living, benefits, etc., etc. Compare the UK salary to UK conditions and Korean salary to Korean conditions. They obviously are not going to care about the exchange rate; what matters is that you can live comfortably on the salary in Korea.

It's the same with Taiwan. I looked at that last month and PS pays 68000Taiwan dollars a month with the 5000 housing included in that. That's ALL they pay! And you have to pay your own flight out there before it gets reimbursed.
AS it happens, I'll be starting on 2.3m soon but at a hagwon. But I have the opportunity of getting the head's position with a higher salary so I'm looking at 3m won there. So I don't mind starting off at 2.3m
Good luck with that.

Should all get higher salaries. we all got bachelor's degrees and CELTAs and CELTAs aren't cheap to get. What to do about it though? Hold demonstrations in the street outside MOE? You get 2.3 m won working at the local DIY store in America and UK don't you? don't even need a bachelor's and CElTA for that. :afro:
LOL I know (I think?) you're just joking about this, but if we tried to hold demonstrations (which, by the way, I'm pretty sure you are not allowed to do on an E2 visa) they would just fire you and find someone else willing to work for that salary, maybe even less.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: asiaman on June 22, 2016, 09:14:41 am
Asiaman is def UKteacher's sock. At least I hope so. I can't handle this much stupidity coming from 2 separate people
Who's UKTeacher? what's stupid about what I wrote. I just wrote that salaries are the same as what you get at B and Q, as someone here mentioned. 2.1m won is offered quite frequently. I just think it's a bit too low for the job that's all. It's not stupid to think that. If you get a lot more than that then fine, the salary is ok then. ANything over 2.6m is ok. That's £1500 then so it's doable.  SOmone has a laugh over her coffee apparently. Why? What's so funny about the post. Just cos I think salaries are a tad on the low side in Korea (for korea?) doesn't mean everyone will agree with me. Korea is a pretty rich country and i think the cost of living isn't that cheap so you need to be earning a decent wage to get by. Anyhow, just keep sending those dollars back home to pay off those debts. Cool. I'm outta here. :cheesy:
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: asiaman on June 22, 2016, 09:22:32 am
Yirgacheffe...I read your post. A lot of what you say makes sense. ;D It's the 2.1m 2.2m won I think is a bit too low. :afro: You're right about demonstrations an all, they'd just get someone else to do the job. Such is life.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: Zaiterade on June 22, 2016, 09:28:52 am
While I do agree that wages should increase along with the cost of living here, considering we barely work compared to English teachers around the world and we have free housing, I feel like this is still a fair deal overall, at least for PS jobs. If you don't like it, don't come here. Go work in the UAE and Angola and make those fortunes. You have the freedom to do whatever you want. What a time to be alive, right?

But if you do come here and negotiate, please keep us updated and let us know how it goes. I personally doubt you will do much, but if you do, I would be mighty impressed.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: solveit on June 22, 2016, 09:34:12 am
Asiaman is def UKteacher's sock. At least I hope so. I can't handle this much stupidity coming from 2 separate people
Who's UKTeacher? what's stupid about what I wrote. I just wrote that salaries are the same as what you get at B and Q, as someone here mentioned. 2.1m won is offered quite frequently. I just think it's a bit too low for the job that's all. It's not stupid to think that. If you get a lot more than that then fine, the salary is ok then. ANything over 2.6m is ok. That's £1500 then so it's doable.  SOmone has a laugh over her coffee apparently. Why? What's so funny about the post. Just cos I think salaries are a tad on the low side in Korea (for korea?) doesn't mean everyone will agree with me. Korea is a pretty rich country and i think the cost of living isn't that cheap so you need to be earning a decent wage to get by. Anyhow, just keep sending those dollars back home to pay off those debts. Cool. I'm outta here. :cheesy:

You're posting the same comments here as on Dave's, about your 2.3mil job with the possibility of the head teacher job, about your degree equivalent etc etc, with the username greyhound, and have already admitted to being UK teacher over there.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: asiaman on June 22, 2016, 09:39:01 am
[quote author=Imogen1991 link=topic=98421.msg634334#msg634334 date=146655578
You're posting the same comments here as on Dave's, about your 2.3mil job with the possibility of the head teacher job, about your degree equivalent etc etc, with the username greyhound, and have already admitted to being UK teacher over there.
:laugh: you're smart :police:
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: JNM on June 22, 2016, 09:42:57 am
Why are wages low?

Supply exceeds demand.

Simple as that.

[Mic Drop]
[Exit]
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: eggieguffer on June 22, 2016, 10:42:52 am
Why are wages low?

Supply exceeds demand.

Simple as that.

[Mic Drop]
[Exit]

So why are wages so high on the Hong Kong NET scheme where supply also exceeds demand?
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: yfb on June 22, 2016, 10:48:02 am
Hong Kong requires a teaching license which a significantly fewer proportion of ESL teachers have, and if you have a teaching license you also have the option of teaching at int'l schools. Hence the high salary.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: orionchocopie on June 22, 2016, 10:54:45 am
Why are wages low?

Supply exceeds demand.

Simple as that.

[Mic Drop]
[Exit]

So why are wages so high on the Hong Kong NET scheme where supply also exceeds demand?
Because the cost of living is higher?

If the wages in Hong Kong were lower no-one would want to teach there (because they couldn't afford it).  Supply would drop.  When it drops too far the wages would have to go up again.

Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: JahMoo on June 22, 2016, 11:01:02 am
I don't really get what your complaint is. If the pay was too low for you, you would just not come here. And the country wouldn't notice. Because there's someone else who will gladly take your place, and likely work even harder than you. The salary you're aiming for? You don't have the credentials for it. Become fluent in native language of the country you're trying to move to, and maybe you can get closer. Get a Masters degree while you're at it. Then, maybe you can earn what you're looking for. But then again, there's probably a Korean person with a Masters who is fluent in English who gets along well with the bosses... that guy has the job you're looking for.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: YoungMin on June 22, 2016, 11:01:22 am
Lol @ OP pretending he's not UK teacher throughout this whole thread.

Apologies to Sonny for the shame I brought to his great name.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: z80 on June 22, 2016, 11:04:50 am
Korean wages are low because as mentioned they just hire anyone with a dodgy tesol and a degree. Hong Kong not only requires a teachers licence as YFB said, but job supply does still exceed demand. So they get to pick the best teachers out of the bunch. That's why their English education is at a level so far above Korea's we can't compare the two. It's like trying to compare a modern 1st world country to a 3rd world country.

Korea in general doesn't really understand quality vs quantity, or just quality vs profit. They are starting to understand quality a bit better these days with more people going overseas but in general the look of something is often more important than substance.

As far as they are concerned an English speaking 22 year old playing ppt games is as good as a 30 year old qualified teacher with 7 years experience in their home country.

I'm sure as the English program in Korea contracts due to government policies, the high quality schools will look for certified teachers but of course they will have to pay real teachers wages. I don't know many certified teachers who would put up with "Korean culture" just to be paid less or the same as back home.

Most certified teachers that are here are here for a reason, family, taking a 1 year break, or something like that.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: MayorHaggar on June 22, 2016, 11:46:12 am
Rent in much of the US is getting ridiculous while wages are going down especially for workers under 40. Entry-level jobs pay beans and are usually part-time, and that's if you're lucky enough to avoid getting stuck in indentured servitude an unpaid internship. And after making hardly any monry you have to pay like $500 to $1000 for the pleasure of living in someone's closet. 2.1m hagwon jobs will continue to be a better choice until things change.

10 years ago kids in the US were making similar wages as now but rent was like $350 to $600 for a room and $600 to $1300 for your own 1br, even somewhere like San Francisco. Wages in South Korea might be the same but at least rent is still ZERO for most teachers. As a former San Francisco resident this is huge to me.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: Tony Teacher on June 22, 2016, 01:24:56 pm
I think teacher salaries all over the world should be higher in general, but they just aren't. And unfortunately, PS schools in Korea are already cutting English teaching jobs for NETS. It's already happened in parts of Seoul, and it's only a matter of time before it happens all across Korea.

So, it's impossible for salaries to go up now. Especially since the government has been making attempts to lessen the general demand for private education.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: JahMoo on June 22, 2016, 01:54:10 pm
Oh, that's the other thing. The Korean government does not want Hagwons/Private teaching to be a thing. It already is, of course, but they're trying to lessen the need for it as much as possible. The government can put caps on your max pay at a private institution, while also controllng the pay at public schools. They try to make public school teaching more attractive to foreigners if possible, and paint hagwons as unreliable (which they often are).
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: nomadicmadda on June 22, 2016, 02:03:35 pm
It's like trying to compare a modern 1st world country to a 3rd world country.

Korea in general doesn't really understand quality vs quantity, or just quality vs profit. They are starting to understand quality a bit better these days with more people going overseas but in general the look of something is often more important than substance.

This.  People forget that until very recently, Korea basically WAS a 3rd world country.  And it didn't jump into modernity on it's own, it received a hell of a lot of help from the USA.  Even the previous Japanese occupation brought a ton of technology and modernity to the country that Koreans are loathe to admit.

I don't think this excuses Korea's behavior and methods, but I do think it's a pretty good explanation as to "why" the country and society operate the way they do.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: asiaman on June 22, 2016, 02:08:12 pm
Hong Kong requires a teaching license which a significantly fewer proportion of ESL teachers have, and if you have a teaching license you also have the option of teaching at int'l schools. Hence the high salary.
Not always true. I have a teaching licence and TEFLA and I have been offered a job at an international school in the UAE teachinf ESL for 11000AED per month plus free accommodation (£2000 or 3.4m won). I know other teachers on about the same, Some teachers earn more like one in Angola on around $70k plus free accommodation.  China pays IS teachers from £35000 up to £50,000 depending on experience but not all IS pay that. some pay less.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: weigookin74 on June 22, 2016, 02:08:21 pm
Well, a 2.1 milion salary in 2006 with 3% inflation is equal to 2 822 224 in 2016.  This isn't factoring in other things like taxes, exchange rates, etc.  But some years the official inflation rate may have been lower than 3% (nevermind the arguement about real inflation probably being higher).  Anyways, teachers a decade ago did have a higher quality of life in some ways, though most foreign goods were harder to find, were more expensive, and electronics cost much more compared to now here.  Clothing cost (and maybe electronics) are either the same price as a decade ago while some are cheaper. 

So, let's say without the exchange rate factored in, you should make at least 2.6 to have a similar purchasing power to a 2.1 worker 10 years ago?  Conservative estimate.  So, a 2.1 million won worker today is making lets estimate 1.6 or 1.7 million won in 2006 won.  I do remember being told in 2007 or 2008 that 1.5 million won was the bare minimum for middle class and that a girl would look at a Korean guy.  (Though that was not in Seoul.)  So, today, with inflation, that amount would be higher? 

I was actually at 1.95 million when I got here at the end of 2006 and felt I had plenty.  Paid bare minimum on debts (would regret later after the recession hit the Korean ESL industry like a wrecking ball).  Went to 2.15, then 2.3, then 2.5, then up up.  It was around 2.3 that we started getting multiple school allowances, renewal allowances, etc.  Overtime was skimpy for me, though some folks in Gyeongi gi amd Seoul really cleaned up with overtime and being paid for English camps.  I never got those perks, but felt good the first year to year  half.  Exchange rate dropping hit hard, but I kept spending and the cards soared.  Improved exchange rate for me has helped the last couple of years so I feel ok.  But being over 3 mil including renewal allowances, multiple school allowances, and some slight overtime occasionally helps.  But a 2.1 mil with tons of debt to pay?  I'd feel so ripped.  It's ok if you have no debt and just want to blow cash for a year and have no savings left over.  But, 2.1 is too low.  Hakwon owners do rake it in and can afford to do more than nickle and dime.  I mean making 16 million won in profit vs making 18 million won isstill going to be good money for the owner and the korean and foreign teacher will be much better motivated to teach.  Paying a Korean teacher 1.5 million and a waygook 2.1 million might have been ok in 2006, but only breeds resentment in 2016.  Bump the foreign teacher to 2.6 and the Korean teacher to 2.0 million won. 

Given the rise of minimum wage.  In another 2 or 3 years, I'm guessing it will be man won an hour.  Expect even more inflation due to that and also if your wages still stays the same, you'll be not much better off than a minimum wage worker.  Korea works for me for now.  But may not in the future. 
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: donovan on June 22, 2016, 02:10:18 pm
P.S. My salary should be higher.

Funny how much traffic UKTeacher's posts get considering how everyone generally agrees he's a troll and kind of loathes him.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: khalavala on June 22, 2016, 02:15:48 pm
My salary should be higher.

Funny how much traffic UKTeacher's posts get considering how everyone generally agrees he's a troll and kind of loathes him.

When you know a trainwreck is about to happen or a building will explode (demolished) people will gather to make witness.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: weigookin74 on June 22, 2016, 02:18:00 pm
Rent in much of the US is getting ridiculous while wages are going down especially for workers under 40. Entry-level jobs pay beans and are usually part-time, and that's if you're lucky enough to avoid getting stuck in indentured servitude an unpaid internship. And after making hardly any monry you have to pay like $500 to $1000 for the pleasure of living in someone's closet. 2.1m hagwon jobs will continue to be a better choice until things change.

10 years ago kids in the US were making similar wages as now but rent was like $350 to $600 for a room and $600 to $1300 for your own 1br, even somewhere like San Francisco. Wages in South Korea might be the same but at least rent is still ZERO for most teachers. As a former San Francisco resident this is huge to me.

Because the economy's been shit for non silicon valley workers and other folks in elite industries.  The economic conditions combined with costly zoning rule restriction building or other types of building restrictions constrict supply combined with too many outsiders bidding and driving up prices.  Also, when there's a 1 or 1.5 % GDP growth and a low employment rate (62%) not putting upward pressure on wages, it's a perfect sit storm.  Everyone from local government (worst offenders) to state governments (green Jerry Brown), to the federal government (with an EPA going postal), it's no wonder the recovery has been so sluggish.  It's better than it was, but not near the potential. 

Yet, the unemployed impoverished millenials will keep voting for Obama or an Obama clone.  They'll keep drinking the poison kool aid while going against their own interests.  If it were me, I'd support the rude businessman that reminds us of that loud mouthed uncle because I believe he can get the job done.  I may find some things in poor taste, but smashing the crooked system currently in place maybe needs someone outspoken who will smash things up like a bull in a china shop.  This fall will either be more of the same or something different (maybe even something better).  The last number of yers have been pretty devestating though I'm grateful for getting into Korea at the right time and keeping my head above water.  But, maybe I'd like to go home one day.  We all really do need an economic boom. 
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: asiaman on June 22, 2016, 02:21:16 pm
Well, a 2.1 milion salary in 2006 with 3% inflation is equal to 2 822 224 in 2016.  This isn't factoring in other things like taxes, exchange rates, etc.  But some years the official inflation rate may have been lower than 3% (nevermind the arguement about real inflation probably being higher).  Anyways, teachers a decade ago did have a higher quality of life in some ways, though most foreign goods were harder to find, were more expensive, and electronics cost much more compared to now here.  Clothing cost (and maybe electronics) are either the same price as a decade ago while some are cheaper. 

So, let's say without the exchange rate factored in, you should make at least 2.6 to have a similar purchasing power to a 2.1 worker 10 years ago?  Conservative estimate.  So, a 2.1 million won worker today is making lets estimate 1.6 or 1.7 million won in 2006 won.  I do remember being told in 2007 or 2008 that 1.5 million won was the bare minimum for middle class and that a girl would look at a Korean guy.  (Though that was not in Seoul.)  So, today, with inflation, that amount would be higher? 

I was actually at 1.95 million when I got here at the end of 2006 and felt I had plenty.  Paid bare minimum on debts (would regret later after the recession hit the Korean ESL industry like a wrecking ball).  Went to 2.15, then 2.3, then 2.5, then up up.  It was around 2.3 that we started getting multiple school allowances, renewal allowances, etc.  Overtime was skimpy for me, though some folks in Gyeongi gi amd Seoul really cleaned up with overtime and being paid for English camps.  I never got those perks, but felt good the first year to year  half.  Exchange rate dropping hit hard, but I kept spending and the cards soared.  Improved exchange rate for me has helped the last couple of years so I feel ok.  But being over 3 mil including renewal allowances, multiple school allowances, and some slight overtime occasionally helps.  But a 2.1 mil with tons of debt to pay?  I'd feel so ripped.  It's ok if you have no debt and just want to blow cash for a year and have no savings left over.  But, 2.1 is too low.  Hakwon owners do rake it in and can afford to do more than nickle and dime.  I mean making 16 million won in profit vs making 18 million won isstill going to be good money for the owner and the korean and foreign teacher will be much better motivated to teach.  Paying a Korean teacher 1.5 million and a waygook 2.1 million might have been ok in 2006, but only breeds resentment in 2016.  Bump the foreign teacher to 2.6 and the Korean teacher to 2.0 million won. 

Given the rise of minimum wage.  In another 2 or 3 years, I'm guessing it will be man won an hour.  Expect even more inflation due to that and also if your wages still stays the same, you'll be not much better off than a minimum wage worker.  Korea works for me for now.  But may not in the future.

My point eactly. Should be 2.6m won minimum for all teachers here really in 2016.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: weigookin74 on June 22, 2016, 02:22:04 pm
Som schools are paying more as the market has partially improved.  Saw this ad.  Not endorsing them.  I have no clue who they are.  Just an example. 

http://www.waygook.org/index.php/topic,98448.0.html


Also, have your documents ready and get the ASAP offers.  You might be able to get them by the b@lls and demand more salary, especially if they're pulling this one way flight crap.  That merits an extra 100, 000 a month in pay right away.  Anyways, even if you can push for 2.5 minimum if the owner is desperate.  By pass the jerk recruiter who will dismiss it.  Feign interest in the position, then change the contract sent to you to your terms pay, etc.  Send it back, speak to the owner or head teacher and then say what you want.  We can all still do our part to push it up especially as more folks do go home. 
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: asiaman on June 22, 2016, 02:29:16 pm
ABout the US (I'm from UK), I saw that in New Mexico, teachers' salaries start from $30k up to about $50k so not all that. There's a J1 visa for UK teachers who want to teach or study etc in America. I also saw on AirBandB that a room in Albuquerque costs nearly $1000 a month. So teachers there aren't all that well off.

My American friend is a freeland motion picture editor in Burbank, CA and he charges loads for editing..like $9-$10k per job. He makes around $50-$60k a year as he isn't always working. He's in LA though where they pay those prices. He pays $1500 a month for a 1bed apartment. I think he's brave doing freelance and having to pay for an apartment but he's managed for 9 years
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: eggieguffer on June 22, 2016, 04:03:10 pm
Quote
Hong Kong requires a teaching license which a significantly fewer proportion of ESL teachers have, and if you have a teaching license you also have the option of teaching at int'l schools. Hence the high salary.

Not true, you can get on the Hong Kong NET scheme with just a CELTA - on a lower scale but still much higher than Korea.

Quote
Because the cost of living is higher?

If the wages in Hong Kong were lower no-one would want to teach there (because they couldn't afford it).  Supply would drop.  When it drops too far the wages would have to go up again.

The cost of living is higher in some areas e.g. housing, but your housing allowance covers that. Other costs are on a par with Seoul.

Wages are not always linked to supply and demand. E.g. teaching job wages in Korea for Korean teachers are comparatively high, though there is always a glut of people, mostly women, wanting to be public school teachers.  The idea is that the salary is high to make teaching a higher status job and to attract a higher calibre of employee.  The same is true about the Hong Kong NET scheme
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: asiaman on June 22, 2016, 04:19:58 pm
If you ONLY have a CELTA and want to work in hong kong you will only earn about 20000 HK dollars a month and have to pay your own accommodation I think. Mostly at language schools this work is to be found.

If you want to be a NET?SNET teacher, you need a bachelor's degree in english and a teaching licence like a PGCE and preferably a CELTA and 1 years teaching experience. If you have other bachelor degrees, you need a teacher's licence again and a CELTA and 1 years experience. the housing allowance is around 19k HK dollars. with the salary it comes to almost 50k HK dollars a month
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: JNM on June 22, 2016, 05:15:12 pm
Quote


Wages are not always linked to supply and demand. E.g. teaching job wages in Korea for Korean teachers are comparatively high, though there is always a glut of people, mostly women, wanting to be public school teachers.  The idea is that the salary is high to make teaching a higher status job and to attract a higher calibre of employee.  The same is true about the Hong Kong NET scheme

That is the very definition of supply  and demand.

Don't like the quality of applicants? Raise wages.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: asiaman on June 22, 2016, 05:36:14 pm
Costs between £1000 and £2000 per month to rent in HK

https://www.airbnb.co.uk/s/hong-kong?checkin=01-07-2016&checkout=31-07-2016&guests=&source=bb&ss_id=5jui7bln&s_tag=8JQdsnl0
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: eggieguffer on June 22, 2016, 06:26:52 pm
Quote


Wages are not always linked to supply and demand. E.g. teaching job wages in Korea for Korean teachers are comparatively high, though there is always a glut of people, mostly women, wanting to be public school teachers.  The idea is that the salary is high to make teaching a higher status job and to attract a higher calibre of employee.  The same is true about the Hong Kong NET scheme

That is the very definition of supply  and demand.

Don't like the quality of applicants? Raise wages.

So if wages are low, like for NETS in Korea and there is a glut of qualified candidates, it's due to supply and demand and when wages are high, like for Hong Kong NETs, and there's a glut of qualified candidates, it's also due to supply and demand. So when is the level of wage not due to supply and demand?
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: eggieguffer on June 22, 2016, 06:40:56 pm
Costs between £1000 and £2000 per month to rent in HK

https://www.airbnb.co.uk/s/hong-kong?checkin=01-07-2016&checkout=31-07-2016&guests=&source=bb&ss_id=5jui7bln&s_tag=8JQdsnl0

As I said before they get a housing allowance. I lived in a pretty nice two bed flat while I was there, which I could have paid for easily out of the NET scheme allowance had I been a NET.

http://www.teachanywhere.com/job-seeker/far-east-asia/hong-kong/hong-kong-net-programme/
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: MayorHaggar on June 22, 2016, 07:17:59 pm


Yet, the unemployed impoverished millenials will keep voting for Obama or an Obama clone.  They'll keep drinking the poison kool aid while going against their own interests.

Voting against their own interests? Why would they vote for a racist GOP that blatantly only cares about the megarich and a small number of fetishistic gun owners?

You can't make the argument that a GOP Congress or Presidency would automatically mean a better economy anymore, like you could in the 80's or 90's. People know that trickle-down economics is a scam, and that Republicans don't actually care about deficits or people who actually work for a living. Their platform is literally that low-wage workers should be paid even less, while taxes should be cut even more than they already are on the megarich. Why would anyone vote to give themselves less money?

And yes this is why Trump has done so well, because he's the first Republican since about the 1940's to say publicly that he gives half a crap about the working class, but he sure as hell doesn't know what to do about jobs other than bloviate about "deals," and he's a huge racist so a lot of people will have a yuuuuge problem voting for him even if he ever gets his campaign back on course.

Some teachers earn more like one in Angola on around $70k plus free accommodation. 

Good luck making that last!!!

Quote
I stopped at the Casa dos Frescos, a grocery store favored by expatriates, to buy some Scotch for my hosts, but a fifth of the Balvenie cost three hundred dollars, so I settled for a mediocre bottle of wine, for sixty-five. The woman in front of me, juggling an infant and a cell phone, unloaded her groceries on the checkout counter. She had a couple of steaks, a few pantry items, and two seventeen-dollar pints of Häagen-Dazs ice cream, along with juice and vegetables. The bill was eleven hundred and fifty dollars.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/06/01/extreme-city-specter

Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: JNM on June 22, 2016, 08:23:02 pm
Quote


Wages are not always linked to supply and demand. E.g. teaching job wages in Korea for Korean teachers are comparatively high, though there is always a glut of people, mostly women, wanting to be public school teachers.  The idea is that the salary is high to make teaching a higher status job and to attract a higher calibre of employee.  The same is true about the Hong Kong NET scheme

That is the very definition of supply  and demand.

Don't like the quality of applicants? Raise wages.

So if wages are low, like for NETS in Korea, it's due to supply and demand and when wages are high, like for Hong Kong NETs, it's also due to supply and demand. So when is the level of wage not due to supply and demand?

Never.

Korea pays low, and gets "good enough".

HK wants more experience/credentials so they have to offer more to ensure that there are enough applicants.

Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: Mr. Pink on June 22, 2016, 08:41:15 pm
Quote
Hong Kong requires a teaching license which a significantly fewer proportion of ESL teachers have, and if you have a teaching license you also have the option of teaching at int'l schools. Hence the high salary.

Not true, you can get on the Hong Kong NET scheme with just a CELTA - on a lower scale but still much higher than Korea.

this is technically true but it puts you in a lower category of applicants. these applicants are only hired if there aren't enough of the higher category applicants to fill the positions. and from what I've read on forums there are usually ALWAYS enough of the Category 1 and 2 applicants. so much so that people in Categories 1 and 2 are even wait-listed.

for primary school NETs you need a teaching license for Categories 1 through 3.

for secondary school the qualifications are even stricter.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: eggieguffer on June 22, 2016, 09:03:57 pm
Quote


Wages are not always linked to supply and demand. E.g. teaching job wages in Korea for Korean teachers are comparatively high, though there is always a glut of people, mostly women, wanting to be public school teachers.  The idea is that the salary is high to make teaching a higher status job and to attract a higher calibre of employee.  The same is true about the Hong Kong NET scheme

That is the very definition of supply  and demand.

Don't like the quality of applicants? Raise wages.

So if wages are low, like for NETS in Korea, it's due to supply and demand and when wages are high, like for Hong Kong NETs, it's also due to supply and demand. So when is the level of wage not due to supply and demand?

Never.

Korea pays low, and gets "good enough".

HK wants more experience/credentials so they have to offer more to ensure that there are enough applicants.

True, but I think to some extent different rules to the market place apply to education.  Governments, for example, know they will always be able to fill teaching positions in public schools with qualified candidates in most subjects even if they pay crap wages and they can look at the US for evidence. However lots of countries like Korea pay more than they have to . I assume so they can create a strong image of a school teacher as an important figure in society (yes yes we know it's a bit of a facade) They do this in the expectation that it will result in more quality applicants to teaching college. This is not really my idea of supply and demand.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: orionchocopie on June 23, 2016, 07:40:56 am
Costs between £1000 and £2000 per month to rent in HK

https://www.airbnb.co.uk/s/hong-kong?checkin=01-07-2016&checkout=31-07-2016&guests=&source=bb&ss_id=5jui7bln&s_tag=8JQdsnl0

As I said before they get a housing allowance. I lived in a pretty nice two bed flat while I was there, which I could have paid for easily out of the NET scheme allowance had I been a NET.
Wow, you have lived everywhere.  No wonder you are so knowledgeable.  Was this before or after you lived in North Korea?

"Housing allowance" is basically part of your salary, so it's pointless to mention it.

Before I posted that the cost of living is higher in Hong Kong I did some research.  And it is.  Housing, as a category, is significantly more expensive than any other category, but all other categories are more expensive, giving an average of about 56% more expensive.

After I posted, I saw this:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36587681

tl;dr
"Hong Kong is the world's most expensive city for expats, leapfrogging Angolan capital Luanda in the annual chart compiled by consultancy firm Mercer.
...
Zurich and Singapore were third and fourth on the list, unchanged from a year ago. Tokyo rose to fifth."

Seoul isn't even in the top ten.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: seoil on June 23, 2016, 11:44:12 am
Korean wages are low because as mentioned they just hire anyone with a dodgy tesol and a degree. Hong Kong not only requires a teachers licence as YFB said, but job supply does still exceed demand. So they get to pick the best teachers out of the bunch. That's why their English education is at a level so far above Korea's we can't compare the two. It's like trying to compare a modern 1st world country to a 3rd world country.

Korea in general doesn't really understand quality vs quantity, or just quality vs profit. They are starting to understand quality a bit better these days with more people going overseas but in general the look of something is often more important than substance.

As far as they are concerned an English speaking 22 year old playing ppt games is as good as a 30 year old qualified teacher with 7 years experience in their home country.

I'm sure as the English program in Korea contracts due to government policies, the high quality schools will look for certified teachers but of course they will have to pay real teachers wages. I don't know many certified teachers who would put up with "Korean culture" just to be paid less or the same as back home.

Most certified teachers that are here are here for a reason, family, taking a 1 year break, or something like that.

Amen...so true.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: weigookin74 on June 23, 2016, 12:26:06 pm
Quote


Wages are not always linked to supply and demand. E.g. teaching job wages in Korea for Korean teachers are comparatively high, though there is always a glut of people, mostly women, wanting to be public school teachers.  The idea is that the salary is high to make teaching a higher status job and to attract a higher calibre of employee.  The same is true about the Hong Kong NET scheme

That is the very definition of supply  and demand.

Don't like the quality of applicants? Raise wages.

It's called a strong union.  In Canada teachers unions are strong and they can push the wages up even if the supply would normally pull them down.  There are things that artifically interfere with normal supply and demand.  Unions are less strong here, but teachers associations have some political pull and clout.  In California and some states too, but other states not so much.  The high wages ensures there is a high glut of people wanting to be teachers. 
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: weigookin74 on June 23, 2016, 12:38:46 pm


Yet, the unemployed impoverished millenials will keep voting for Obama or an Obama clone.  They'll keep drinking the poison kool aid while going against their own interests.

Voting against their own interests? Why would they vote for a racist GOP that blatantly only cares about the megarich and a small number of fetishistic gun owners?

You can't make the argument that a GOP Congress or Presidency would automatically mean a better economy anymore, like you could in the 80's or 90's. People know that trickle-down economics is a scam, and that Republicans don't actually care about deficits or people who actually work for a living. Their platform is literally that low-wage workers should be paid even less, while taxes should be cut even more than they already are on the megarich. Why would anyone vote to give themselves less money?

And yes this is why Trump has done so well, because he's the first Republican since about the 1940's to say publicly that he gives half a crap about the working class, but he sure as hell doesn't know what to do about jobs other than bloviate about "deals," and he's a huge racist so a lot of people will have a yuuuuge problem voting for him even if he ever gets his campaign back on course.

Some teachers earn more like one in Angola on around $70k plus free accommodation. 

Good luck making that last!!!

Quote
I stopped at the Casa dos Frescos, a grocery store favored by expatriates, to buy some Scotch for my hosts, but a fifth of the Balvenie cost three hundred dollars, so I settled for a mediocre bottle of wine, for sixty-five. The woman in front of me, juggling an infant and a cell phone, unloaded her groceries on the checkout counter. She had a couple of steaks, a few pantry items, and two seventeen-dollar pints of Häagen-Dazs ice cream, along with juice and vegetables. The bill was eleven hundred and fifty dollars.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/06/01/extreme-city-specter

Well if people want to believe lies about racism that the media exagerates and democratic allied groups spin, then they'll have no right to bitch about the continued terrible economic conditions a year or two from now if they continue to vote for more of the same.  You either vote for change or you vote for a continuation. 

The employment rate is low as low as the 1970's (around 62% of the population is working right now) and GDP growth is around 1 to 1.5%.  The employment rate should be miuch higher and GDP growth should be over 4% minimum to have true growth and to really see wages go up.  The late 80's and 90's did have this.  But the trend to downsize manufacturing really began in the 1970's due to massive inflation, going off the gold standard, governments borrowing too much and spending too much, etc. 

Obama-down economics is a scam and the numbers are pure BS.  Now maybe a lot of stupid people are going to keep voting for the continuation of the same policies, that's their choice.  Maybe when they're 45 and sick of living in their parents basement they'll wisen up.  But it might be too late by then.  The economy may be so slumped for so long there may be no coming back. 

BTW, Wall street and the hedge fund managers are donating to Clinton and are supporting her overwhelmingly.  Most of the rich don't like Trump.  (Neither do most blue bloods in the Republican party.)  He's always been closer to the blue collar worker.  These entities also gave a lot to Jeb Bush because both Clinton and Bush were seen as acceptable puppets.  If you really want to put these crooks in their place, plug your nose and vote Trump.  If you want more money and politics and continued paltry economic growth, vote Clinton.  Those are your choices.  The media is owned by large conglomerates and are going to push Clinton and exagerate stories about Trump as well as out and right lie.  They are scared of him because he sees through their smoke and mirrors.  I wish he would use more tact at times, I admit, but he's the lesser of two evils. 

As for the working class, when Clinton says she's going to put a lot of people out of work, is it any wonder why a lot of blue collar workers are going to Trump?  Drive out manufacturing, end coal mining, etc.  Send it to China, Mexico where ever.  Well screw Clinton and Obama. 
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: eggieguffer on June 23, 2016, 01:08:15 pm
Costs between £1000 and £2000 per month to rent in HK

https://www.airbnb.co.uk/s/hong-kong?checkin=01-07-2016&checkout=31-07-2016&guests=&source=bb&ss_id=5jui7bln&s_tag=8JQdsnl0

As I said before they get a housing allowance. I lived in a pretty nice two bed flat while I was there, which I could have paid for easily out of the NET scheme allowance had I been a NET.
Wow, you have lived everywhere.  No wonder you are so knowledgeable.  Was this before or after you lived in North Korea?

"Housing allowance" is basically part of your salary, so it's pointless to mention it.

Before I posted that the cost of living is higher in Hong Kong I did some research.  And it is.  Housing, as a category, is significantly more expensive than any other category, but all other categories are more expensive, giving an average of about 56% more expensive.

After I posted, I saw this:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36587681

tl;dr
"Hong Kong is the world's most expensive city for expats, leapfrogging Angolan capital Luanda in the annual chart compiled by consultancy firm Mercer.
...
Zurich and Singapore were third and fourth on the list, unchanged from a year ago. Tokyo rose to fifth."

Seoul isn't even in the top ten.

I guess it is then if that survey says so. I was making a lot more money, paid virtually no tax and ended up saving more than I did in Korea (North and South) so I guess I didn't notice. It took me ages to get the prices right in my head too as the Hong Kong dollar isn't easy to compare to the pound if you're crap at Maths. I know one thing public transport was definitely cheaper. Tram and subway were both cheaper than Seoul
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: JNM on June 23, 2016, 01:21:11 pm
Quote


Wages are not always linked to supply and demand. E.g. teaching job wages in Korea for Korean teachers are comparatively high, though there is always a glut of people, mostly women, wanting to be public school teachers.  The idea is that the salary is high to make teaching a higher status job and to attract a higher calibre of employee.  The same is true about the Hong Kong NET scheme

That is the very definition of supply  and demand.

Don't like the quality of applicants? Raise wages.

It's called a strong union.  In Canada teachers unions are strong and they can push the wages up even if the supply would normally pull them down.  There are things that artifically interfere with normal supply and demand.  Unions are less strong here, but teachers associations have some political pull and clout.  In California and some states too, but other states not so much.  The high wages ensures there is a high glut of people wanting to be teachers.

Yes.  Unions and government policy tinker with the "ideal" supply demand curve.

Unions (not individual workers) own the supply, and Governements own the demand.  Workers are just that meaty thing in the middle.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: KirbyFan112 on June 23, 2016, 01:37:28 pm
Rent in much of the US is getting ridiculous while wages are going down especially for workers under 40. Entry-level jobs pay beans and are usually part-time, and that's if you're lucky enough to avoid getting stuck in indentured servitude an unpaid internship. And after making hardly any monry you have to pay like $500 to $1000 for the pleasure of living in someone's closet. 2.1m hagwon jobs will continue to be a better choice until things change.

10 years ago kids in the US were making similar wages as now but rent was like $350 to $600 for a room and $600 to $1300 for your own 1br, even somewhere like San Francisco. Wages in South Korea might be the same but at least rent is still ZERO for most teachers. As a former San Francisco resident this is huge to me.

I've been to San Fran a couple times... my bank account gets cut in half just stepping foot in that city! Idk if that's a good place to use as an example, I'm from the southwest and you can find pretty cheap housing there. The free apartment is pretty nice here, but I get tired of living of a broom-closet here too..

Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: weigookin74 on June 23, 2016, 01:53:50 pm
Quote


Wages are not always linked to supply and demand. E.g. teaching job wages in Korea for Korean teachers are comparatively high, though there is always a glut of people, mostly women, wanting to be public school teachers.  The idea is that the salary is high to make teaching a higher status job and to attract a higher calibre of employee.  The same is true about the Hong Kong NET scheme

That is the very definition of supply  and demand.

Don't like the quality of applicants? Raise wages.

It's called a strong union.  In Canada teachers unions are strong and they can push the wages up even if the supply would normally pull them down.  There are things that artifically interfere with normal supply and demand.  Unions are less strong here, but teachers associations have some political pull and clout.  In California and some states too, but other states not so much.  The high wages ensures there is a high glut of people wanting to be teachers.

Yes.  Unions and government policy tinker with the "ideal" supply demand curve.

Unions (not individual workers) own the supply, and Governements own the demand.  Workers are just that meaty thing in the middle.

Honestly, if those union jobs came back where you had to repetitively make widgets all day but had a good middle class lifestyle, I'd half consider it.  My education level is irrelevant.  Also, I had worked with some blue collar folks before.  Good folks, hard working, a few slackers to be sure, and many (not all) were quite smart (even without going for years of formal education which seems to be becoming brainwashing anyhow nowadays).  My local city government workers had a good gig going on even if they bitched all the time.  Ha ha.  At this point, I really don't care what status my work has, just that I can afford to live a middle class lifestyle.  But when the job sucks and then you can't even afford to do anything because they don't pay anything, that's when you get pissed.  If the job sucks but you got some money to do things, it partially compensates.  Though I suppose a lot of those guys cant wait to retire. 
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: L I on June 23, 2016, 09:23:28 pm
Now maybe a lot of stupid people are going to keep voting for the continuation of the same policies, that's their choice.  Maybe when they're 45 and sick of living in their parents basement they'll wisen up.  But it might be too late by then.  The economy may be so slumped for so long there may be no coming back.

90 percent of 34-year-olds live in their own home, while 60 percent of those have children.

Saw this in today's news:

-The number of Americans filing for unemployment benefits fell last week to near a 43-year low.

-Claims have now been below 300,000, a threshold associated with a strong job market, for 68 straight weeks, the longest streak since 1973.

-Labor market optimism is being spurred by near record high job openings, as well as the very low layoffs.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: asiaman on June 23, 2016, 10:17:02 pm
Why don't you all become American doctors? My friend's dad was an American doctor from Argentina and at his peak, he was making $60,000 a month and payrolling two doctors $100k per year each. He had a nice 3 bed detached house in Scottsdale AZ. he has since retired and spent a lot of his money he earned travelling to Argentina and building a house there.
Title: Re: PS salaries should be higher
Post by: Mr C on June 23, 2016, 11:18:57 pm
Why don't you all become American doctors?
Right back at you, Bub.