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Symposium => "Open" Discussions => Topic started by: Liechtenstein on May 20, 2021, 10:22:57 am

Title: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Liechtenstein on May 20, 2021, 10:22:57 am
Having lived and worked in China, I don't support much, and believe less, of what comes out of Beijing. However, a hearty congratulations to them for speaking up about the atrocities being perpetuated upon the Palestinian people by the racist apartheid regime led by that criminal Netanyahu.

Israel accuses Chinese state TV of 'blatant antisemitism'
Wed., May 19, 2021, 11:32 a.m.·2 min read

BEIJING (AP) — Israel’s Embassy in China is protesting what it describes as “blatant antisemitism” on a program run by the overseas channel of state broadcaster CCTV discussing the ongoing violence in Gaza and elsewhere.

In a tweet, the embassy said “we have hoped that the times of the ‘Jew’s controlling the world’ conspiracy theories were over, unfortunately antisemitism has shown its ugly face again.”

“We are appalled to see blatant antisemitism expressed in an official Chinese media outlet," the tweet said.

On the Tuesday CGTN broadcast, host Zheng Junfeng questioned whether U.S. support for Israel was truly based on shared democratic values, saying “some people believe that U.S. pro-Israeli policy is traceable to the influence of wealthy Jews in the U.S. and the Jewish lobby on U.S. foreign policy makers.”

“Jews dominate finance and and internet sectors,” Zheng says, speaking in English. “So do they have the powerful lobbies some say? Possible.”

Zheng then accused the U.S. — China’s top geopolitical rival — of using Israel as a “beachhead” in the Middle East and a as proxy in its campaign to defeat pan-Arabism.

Spokesperson Erez Katz Volovelsky said Wednesday the embassy had nothing to add to its tweet and had so far received no reply from CGTN, which CCTV operates for foreign audiences, similar to Russia’s RT.

There was no immediate comment from CCTV and Foreign Ministry spokesperson Zhao Lijian said he was “not aware of the situation."

“China has repeatedly stated its position on the Palestine-Israel situation," Zhao told reporters at a daily briefing.

China has long been a strong backer of the Palestinian cause and in recent days the Foreign Ministry has castigated the U.S. for blocking a statement in the United Nations Security Council condemning the violence.

Yet, since establishing formal diplomatic relations with Israel in 1992, Beijing has nurtured close economic, technological and military ties, including the purchase of early model Israeli drones.

Judaism is not one of China's officially recognized religions and stereotypes about Jews as shrewd businesspeople and market manipulators are common among the Chinese public.


Title: Re: China dares to speak the truth
Post by: Aristocrat on May 20, 2021, 10:27:44 am
So what? The CCP will support any position that's beneficial to them and use it as political leverage. I'm not congratulating them for sh*t.

They're thrilled that a fresh conflict has risen in Palestine as it gives them another opportunity to deflect attention away from their own human rights atrocities and crimes, they can f**k right off with their "support" of Palestine.
Title: Re: China dares to speak the truth
Post by: confusedsafferinkorea on May 20, 2021, 10:30:47 am
Three words come to mind with regards to what China has said.

Pot, kettle, black.

They are hardly in any position to criticise any country. Clean up your own act CCP before you take the moral high road. We should also note that the CCP only takes the moral high ground when they can benefit from it. Human rights in any form is the last thing the CCP considers i.e. Falun Gong, Uighyrs, Tibet, Hong Kong etc, etc etc.

Liechenstein as one was has lived there you shouldn't be fooled by CCP propaganda, shame on you.
Title: Re: China dares to speak the truth
Post by: thunderlips on May 20, 2021, 10:36:14 am
I love irony. Hats off to China.  #FtheUyghurs
Title: Re: China dares to speak the truth
Post by: Liechtenstein on May 20, 2021, 10:46:41 am
I support the Palestinians and thus agree with an opinion which supports mine on this issue. As an aside, which government on this planet isn't a propaganda machine? 
Title: Re: China dares to speak the truth
Post by: confusedsafferinkorea on May 20, 2021, 10:50:35 am
I support the Palestinians and thus agree with an opinion which supports mine on this issue. As an aside, which government on this planet isn't a propaganda machine? 

You can support Palestine, no problem but to be fooled by a regime that has not one bone of integrity in their bodies and is only saying it for political gain and has not a grain of care about human rights, is just crazy.

Newsflash, they don't care a flying fig about the Palestinians, they are just a means to an end.
Title: Re: China dares to speak the truth
Post by: thunderlips on May 20, 2021, 10:53:36 am
I support the Palestinians and thus agree with an opinion which supports mine on this issue. As an aside, which government on this planet isn't a propaganda machine? 

Sure I find it repugnant that Israel wants to claim antisemitism anytime a complaint is made. However I’ve heard from numerous people about how jews still control everything, although these days it is implied with “bankers”.

Palestine has a right to exist as does Israel. The current methods israel is using seem to be borrowed from a nazi playbook.
Title: Re: China dares to speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Kyndo on May 20, 2021, 11:02:17 am
On request, I changed the name of this thread to something a little bit more descriptive.
Title: Re: China dares to speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: tylerthegloob on May 20, 2021, 11:19:11 am
also you cant really "dare" to do something if there are 0 consequences for it. it's not like china is showing any courage by speaking out
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 20, 2021, 11:50:15 am
The Israelis are surrounded by people who have explicitly genocidal intentions towards them. The charter of Hamas is explicitly genocidal. It looks forward to a time, based on Koranic prophesy, when the earth itself will cry out for Jewish blood, where the trees and the stones will say “O Muslim, there’s a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him.” This is a political document. We are talking about a government that was voted into power by a majority of Palestinians.

https://samharris.org/podcasts/why-dont-i-criticize-israel/
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Aristocrat on May 20, 2021, 11:58:37 am
The Israelis are surrounded by people who have explicitly genocidal intentions towards them. The charter of Hamas is explicitly genocidal. It looks forward to a time, based on Koranic prophesy, when the earth itself will cry out for Jewish blood, where the trees and the stones will say “O Muslim, there’s a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him.” This is a political document. We are talking about a government that was voted into power by a majority of Palestinians.

https://samharris.org/podcasts/why-dont-i-criticize-israel/

Noted
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 20, 2021, 12:11:12 pm
Sam Harris: one of the smartest people speaking on world issues.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: tylerthegloob on May 20, 2021, 12:12:42 pm
"Again, I realize that not all Palestinians support Hamas. Nor am I discounting the degree to which the occupation, along with collateral damage suffered in war, has fueled Palestinian rage. But Palestinian terrorism (and Muslim anti-Semitism) is what has made peaceful coexistence thus far impossible."

He is absolutely discounting the degree to which the occupation has fueled Palestinian rage. I'm sure if you made a top 10 list of best ways to radicalize someone, killing their children would be high on that list.

Sam Harris: one of the smartest people speaking on world issuesneuroscience [maybe].
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 20, 2021, 12:15:47 pm
How many Israeli children were killed by Palestinian terrorists? A lot.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Aristocrat on May 20, 2021, 12:24:34 pm
How many Israeli children were killed by Palestinian terrorists? A lot.

You really want to go there?
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 20, 2021, 12:29:14 pm
Terrorists launch missiles into Israel, killing people at random.

Civilian deaths in the other side are accidental. Great effort is taken to avoid / minimize them.

Big difference.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 20, 2021, 12:29:55 pm
Israel: Good
Hamas: Bad
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Aristocrat on May 20, 2021, 12:40:16 pm
Israel: Good
Hamas: Bad

I have a strong allegiance to Palestinian independence and disdain for Zionists, but until you came along, everyone who posted seemed intelligent and perceptive enough to NOT make this an Israel vs. Palestine argument is it will just end up going nowhere. You're the only one who actually thinks waygook.org is the place where someone is going to change their mind on such a divisive issue.
I have no intention to change your mind as your opinion isn't terribly important or worth the effort of refuting... so congratulations, I guess.

"Truth stands out clear from Error."
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 20, 2021, 12:46:17 pm
Canada, USA, UK, EU, Australia, and New Zealand have declared Hamas a terrorist organization.

China said they are not and is friends with them.

What is South Africa’s position? They seem to be somewhat supportive.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: confusedsafferinkorea on May 20, 2021, 12:53:09 pm
Wouldn't it be wonderful if the two sides could make peace? Wouldn't it be wonderful if the world could stop fighting with each other and then the military budgets could be put to better use, like eliminating poverty which is possible. Ahhh dreams, many people are just plain evil and just want more and more and more. Sad to say this but it is the truth.

I must admit, I cannot get my head around some people's dream to dominate the world, why would you want that?
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: confusedsafferinkorea on May 20, 2021, 12:56:20 pm
What is South Africa’s position? They seem to be somewhat supportive.

Ask the government and you will get one answer, ask the man in the street and you will get a different one.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 20, 2021, 01:02:52 pm
Rubbish all of it. It should be a struggle between the real representatives of the people: The Ottomans vs. The Mamluks.

The Grand Vizier will triumph once again.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: pkjh on May 20, 2021, 03:25:30 pm
Canada, USA, UK, EU, Australia, and New Zealand have declared Hamas a terrorist organization.
Like the IRA used to be?

Ones man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 20, 2021, 03:34:31 pm
Iran, Russia, Syria, Egypt, Turkey, and China are pro Hamas.

Western countries are not.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: thunderlips on May 20, 2021, 04:35:11 pm
Like the IRA used to be?

Ones man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
.

Nelson Mandela!
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Aristocrat on May 20, 2021, 04:42:36 pm
Iran, Russia, Syria, Egypt, Turkey, and China are pro Hamas.

Western countries are not.

The US is one of Israel's biggest ally so China, countries China influences and countries opposed to the US in general are going to support Hamas.
Only a true simpleton will base their opinion on so narrow a metric as to what side a government backs. As others have said, most leaders and governments don't give a crap
about who they throw their support behind as long as it's the winning horse.

Hamas is not Palestine, it's a militant resistance movement and one of many. Israel has militant extremist movements too. To put it bluntly, what would you do if your family was thrown out their home so
a bunch of settlers from Brooklyn could move in? Palestinians are fighting back against apartheid, shocking, right? From the perspective of many, the entire state of Israel is a terrorist state. The fact that
they're white and rich doesn't change that.

"Truth is on the side of the oppressed"
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: confusedsafferinkorea on May 20, 2021, 05:36:52 pm
Here is an interesting perspective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1eDHCJp-oE
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: MayorHaggar on May 20, 2021, 06:53:06 pm
Yes, China the brutal anti-Muslim apartheid regime really cares about Palestine. Yup. Just ask the Uighurs.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: hangook77 on May 21, 2021, 07:52:59 am
Yeah, well maybe Hamas shouldn't fire rockets into Israel or Tel Aviv.  If someone were firing a gun at my home, I'd grab mine and fire back.  If folks said I was bad for firing back, they'd have to kiss my arse.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: hangook77 on May 21, 2021, 07:56:01 am
Having lived and worked in China, I don't support much, and believe less, of what comes out of Beijing. However, a hearty congratulations to them for speaking up about the atrocities being perpetuated upon the Palestinian people by the racist apartheid regime led by that criminal Netanyahu.

Israel accuses Chinese state TV of 'blatant antisemitism'
Wed., May 19, 2021, 11:32 a.m.·2 min read

BEIJING (AP) — Israel’s Embassy in China is protesting what it describes as “blatant antisemitism” on a program run by the overseas channel of state broadcaster CCTV discussing the ongoing violence in Gaza and elsewhere.




You should see the garbage being printed in the Korean media.  Same type of BS.  Israel bad, Hamas good, etc.  Not sure if lots of media firms around the world get together and read from the same script hoping it'll make them look cool instead of like the losers they really are.  Heaven forbid any journalist nowadays have an independent thought or go against the grain.  Most of them around the world are fake news, from CNN to these fellows. 
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: hangook77 on May 21, 2021, 07:57:16 am
Sure I find it repugnant that Israel wants to claim antisemitism anytime a complaint is made. However I’ve heard from numerous people about how jews still control everything, although these days it is implied with “bankers”.

Palestine has a right to exist as does Israel. The current methods israel is using seem to be borrowed from a nazi playbook.

Yeah, Israel should just let rockets fly into their country and kill their people.  Only Nazis defend themselves.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: tylerthegloob on May 21, 2021, 08:09:38 am
Heaven forbid any journalist nowadays have an independent thought or go against the grain.
in what way would supporting israel, a state supported by most powerful countries (and people) on earth, be going against the grain?
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: thunderlips on May 21, 2021, 08:10:04 am
Yeah, Israel should just let rockets fly into their country and kill their people.  Only Nazis defend themselves.


(http://www.scenearabia.com/Content/Admin/Uploads/Articles/ArticleImages/55aefa02-f7bd-4e57-96e4-cc21aac68b90.jpg)


(https://i2.wp.com/www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/images/be07c80cda4579468525734800500272_image2.GIF?resize=392%2C338&ssl=1)
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 21, 2021, 08:21:15 am
Palestinians killed: 94% male, 6% female.

Israelis killed: closer to 50/50.

Meaning Israel is trying to kill murderers only.

Unfortunately Hamas is using human shields which causes innocent civilians to die as well.

But the percentage of non combatants killed is higher of the Israeli side.

Fortunately for them they have better technology so they can shoot down most of the missiles headed for population centers.

Lots of child soldiers in Palestine, most of whom are male. Males are naturally more aggressive than females. Kids there are brainwashed from a young age to hate Israel.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: hangook77 on May 21, 2021, 08:24:21 am
There was never a Palestine.  There were many Empires on these lands after the original Jewish inhabitants were kicked out by Romans.  The Romans burned their cities to the ground and exiled them all.  For centuries they were exiled from their lands and forced to live in other lands always ready for persecution depending on which King came to power.  Hitler wasn't the first ruler to go after the Jews and scapegoat them.  Throughout history they had good times and bad times.  But they often had limited rights and were very much second class citizens through out history with limited rights.  After the Holocaust, most decided to return to their ancestral lands.  Their occupiers didn't like that though and have been fighting tooth and nail ever since.  The most recent Empires to occupy these lands were the British Empire and prior to that the Ottoman Empire.  There was never a Palestinian nation.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: pkjh on May 21, 2021, 08:26:01 am
Imagine if Europeans didn't treat the Jews so bad for like the last 2000 years, perhaps there would've been no Israel, and no Israel-Palestinian conflict.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 21, 2021, 08:49:22 am

(http://www.scenearabia.com/Content/Admin/Uploads/Articles/ArticleImages/55aefa02-f7bd-4e57-96e4-cc21aac68b90.jpg)

Image is from pro Palestine website.

Trump’s not president anymore, so that last frame is irrelevant. Not sure if was ever true. The first frame is suspect, too.

Borders have been the same since 1967 when several Arab countries tried to destroy Israel but failed.

Palestinians angry about something that happened ages ago in the 1940s is similar to Koreans hating Japanese people because of World War 2 and prior. They weren’t alive then.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: tylerthegloob on May 21, 2021, 08:51:43 am
Palestinians angry about something that happened ages ago in the 1940s is similar to Koreans hating Japanese people because of World War 2 and prior. They weren’t alive then.

but certainly not similar to jewish people wanting to return to their ancestral lands
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Liechtenstein on May 21, 2021, 08:57:47 am
There was never a Palestine.  There were many Empires on these lands after the original Jewish inhabitants were kicked out by Romans.  The Romans burned their cities to the ground and exiled them all.  For centuries they were exiled from their lands and forced to live in other lands always ready for persecution depending on which King came to power.  Hitler wasn't the first ruler to go after the Jews and scapegoat them.  Throughout history they had good times and bad times.  But they often had limited rights and were very much second class citizens through out history with limited rights.  After the Holocaust, most decided to return to their ancestral lands.  Their occupiers didn't like that though and have been fighting tooth and nail ever since.  The most recent Empires to occupy these lands were the British Empire and prior to that the Ottoman Empire.  There was never a Palestinian nation.

What flavour Kool-Aid did you have?
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Liechtenstein on May 21, 2021, 08:59:59 am

Palestinians angry about something that happened ages ago in the 1940s is similar to Koreans hating Japanese people because of World War 2 and prior. They weren’t alive then.
[/quote]

Could this be equated in the slightest way to Jews and the holocaust?
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: hangook77 on May 21, 2021, 09:03:59 am
What flavour Kool-Aid did you have?

Facts don't care about your feelings.  Learn a little history son.  Most people don't learn it.  That's why they're so gullible to slick posters or campaigns with fake information in it.  Propaganda tricks people that never learned about history. 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogrom

Jews have been attacked and scapegoated in all the lands they have lived since being expelled by the Romans from their own lands.  Sometimes local rules treated them well, but others did not.  They were treated as second class citizens as they were barred from owning land and going into many trades.  Hence many became great at finance.  But that's besides the point.  They finally returned home after their lands were occupied for centuries.  These are historical facts.

This is what started their journey in exile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(70_CE)


So, what flavor of kool aid are serving in your propaganda camp?
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 21, 2021, 09:08:34 am
Could this be equated in the slightest way to Jews and the holocaust?

Do Jewish kids hate German kids and want to kill them for what their ancestors who are not them did? The answer is no.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Liechtenstein on May 21, 2021, 09:13:18 am
Do Jewish kids hate German kids and want to kill them for what their ancestors who are not them did? The answer is no.

I wouldn't bet on that.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: thunderlips on May 21, 2021, 09:14:30 am
Facts don't care about your feelings.  Learn a little history son.  Most people don't learn it.  That's why they're so gullible to slick posters or campaigns with fake information in it.  Propaganda tricks people that never learned about history. 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogrom

Jews have been attacked and scapegoated in all the lands they have lived since being expelled by the Romans from their own lands.  Sometimes local rules treated them well, but others did not.  They were treated as second class citizens as they were barred from owning land and going into many trades.  Hence many became great at finance.  But that's besides the point.  They finally returned home after their lands were occupied for centuries.  These are historical facts.

This is what started their journey in exile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(70_CE)


So, what flavor of kool aid are serving in your propaganda camp?

Quote
Wikipedia is not a reliable source for citations elsewhere on Wikipedia. Because it can be edited by anyone at any time, any information it contains at a particular time could be vandalism, a work in progress, or just plain wrong. Biographies of living persons, subjects that happen to be in the news, and politically or culturally contentious topics are especially vulnerable to these issues. Edits on Wikipedia that are in error are usually fixed after some time. However, because Wikipedia is a volunteer-run project, it cannot constantly monitor every contribution. There are many errors that remain unnoticed for hours, days, weeks, months, or even years. Therefore, Wikipedia should not be considered a definitive source in and of itself.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Liechtenstein on May 21, 2021, 09:15:55 am
Facts don't care about your feelings.  Learn a little history son.  Most people don't learn it.  That's why they're so gullible to slick posters or campaigns with fake information in it.  Propaganda tricks people that never learned about history. 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogrom

Jews have been attacked and scapegoated in all the lands they have lived since being expelled by the Romans from their own lands.  Sometimes local rules treated them well, but others did not.  They were treated as second class citizens as they were barred from owning land and going into many trades.  Hence many became great at finance.  But that's besides the point.  They finally returned home after their lands were occupied for centuries.  These are historical facts.

This is what started their journey in exile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(70_CE)


So, what flavor of kool aid are serving in your propaganda camp?

Ask yourself the hard question. Why have the Jewish people been attacked, scapegoated and expelled throughout history?
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Kyndo on May 21, 2021, 09:18:39 am
I wouldn't bet on that.
Having grown up with a lot of Israeli kids* (my mom and her best friend lived in Israel for quite a few years), I definitely would.
Most bear German people no particular ill will. Heck, from what I understand, most don't even dislike Germany the country for it's past. Germany has done *a lot* to put the Holocaust behind it, and has been pretty sincere in it's apologies, reparations, and general shame of its past.
If only Japan had done the same.  :sad:


*Although I'll concede that "Israeli" and "Jewish" aren't 100% the same.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 21, 2021, 09:19:14 am
I wouldn't bet on that.

Well, how often does that happen? Almost never?

Israel isn’t going to fire rockets into Germany.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 21, 2021, 09:20:32 am
Ask yourself the hard question. Why have the Jewish people been attacked, scapegoated and expelled throughout history?

They had successful businesses. People were jealous / wanted their wealth.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Liechtenstein on May 21, 2021, 09:22:08 am
They had successful businesses. People were jealous / wanted their wealth.

That seems rather facile. There's a deeper meaning. Look at many immigrant cultures who are successful today who aren't constantly under attack.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 21, 2021, 09:30:04 am
Ok, so what’s the reason in your opinion?
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: hangook77 on May 21, 2021, 10:15:58 am
Ask yourself the hard question. Why have the Jewish people been attacked, scapegoated and expelled throughout history?

So, you are implying they deserve it?  Seems you're implying something about Jews. 
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: CO2 on May 21, 2021, 10:17:14 am
Ask yourself the hard question. Why have the Jewish people been attacked, scapegoated and expelled throughout history?
큰yikes
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: hangook77 on May 21, 2021, 10:17:58 am


Whether it is or isn't, there are plenty of other history sources recording the same events long before there was a Wikipedia.  But since I can't link History books and other info, wiki was the goto in this regard.  But you can check their sources if you wish and dissect from there.   
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Aristocrat on May 21, 2021, 10:49:25 am
Why am I not surprised that it's Hangook and the guy who thinks most Muslims are extremists because of a Twitter post by a Muslim MMA fighter criticising the French president?

Ok, so what’s the reason in your opinion?

Multiple reasons:

- They were the first group of people to believe in one God and challenge the status quo of worshipping pharaohs and idols.
- They were blamed for the death of Prophet Isa/Jesus Christ.
- They have a strong communal bond which makes others distrust them
- They're not any better or worse at making money than anyone else, but when you have a strong communal bond you tend to support those within your community making business a lot easier.

Either way, Religion has got diddly-squat to do with going on in Palestine. It's a perfect storm of a political mess and Britain (having conveniently taken 10 steps back) is one of the biggest architects.

Palestine is a Holy land for ALL 3 Abrahamic faiths.
In a similar way that the extremism of national socialism took hold of Germany, Zionism has infected the mindset of Israelis and other Jews and Zionism is a VERY new political movement that argues that The Holy Land is the exclusive home of Jewish people and everyone else can f*ck off... Sorry, that's not how it works. There's nothing in the Torah that says anything about the Jews being the sole inhabitants of The Holy Land, that's some made up Zionist BS. There're a hell of a lot of Jews opposed to the state of Israel because, guess what, they understand their Torah and their Faith. Do you two Atheists claim to understand their Faith better than them?

The Jews were oppressed, Zionism was born. Palestinians were oppressed, Hamas was born. Hate breeds hate.

Israel is and apartheid regime, end of story.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 21, 2021, 11:36:09 am
My list of bad and/or impossible solutions

1) Ottomans or Mamluks get the claim.
2) Let the Zoroastrians have it. No one is happy.
3) Entire area should be run by the UN as a demilitarized open free state/territory.

FYI #3 has also basically been my stance on Dokdo- Turn it into a UN nature preserve OR Japan and Korea turn it into a mutual offshore tax haven+casino
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: hangook77 on May 21, 2021, 11:39:39 am
Why am I not surprised that it's Hangook and the guy who thinks most Muslims are extremists because of a Twitter post by a Muslim MMA fighter criticising the French president?

Multiple reasons:

- They were the first group of people to believe in one God and challenge the status quo of worshipping pharaohs and idols.
- They were blamed for the death of Prophet Isa/Jesus Christ.
- They have a strong communal bond which makes others distrust them
- They're not any better or worse at making money than anyone else, but when you have a strong communal bond you tend to support those within your community making business a lot easier.

Either way, Religion has got diddly-squat to do with going on in Palestine. It's a perfect storm of a political mess and Britain (having conveniently taken 10 steps back) is one of the biggest architects.

Palestine is a Holy land for ALL 3 Abrahamic faiths.
In a similar way that the extremism of national socialism took hold of Germany, Zionism has infected the mindset of Israelis and other Jews and Zionism is a VERY new political movement that argues that The Holy Land is the exclusive home of Jewish people and everyone else can f*ck off... Sorry, that's not how it works. There's nothing in the Torah that says anything about the Jews being the sole inhabitants of The Holy Land, that's some made up Zionist BS. There're a hell of a lot of Jews opposed to the state of Israel because, guess what, they understand their Torah and their Faith. Do you two Atheists claim to understand their Faith better than them?

The Jews were oppressed, Zionism was born. Palestinians were oppressed, Hamas was born. Hate breeds hate.

Israel is and apartheid regime, end of story.

I like Muslims fine the ones who aren't blowing things up and being extremist or cramming their opinions down your throat.  Plenty just mind their own business and I like them fine.  As for Israel being called an apartheid regime, hardly.  But when folks are constantly attacking you, well you have to keep them separate and  contained for security reasons.  Maybe if they weren't firing rockets or picking up chunks of stone or pavement to throw at people, then maybe they wouldn't have to be kept separate.  It's a big difference from the former South African regimes.  Most Palestinians should just migrate to other nearby Muslim Arab countries.  If water can be desalinated and soil in any areas are decent or can be made decent, it would be better than this. 
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: tylerthegloob on May 21, 2021, 11:48:34 am
I like Israelis fine the ones who aren't committing war crimes and being extremist or cramming their opinions down your throat.  Plenty just mind their own business and I like them fine.  As for Israel being called an apartheid regime, definitely.  When folks are constantly attacking you, well you definitely don't have to expand your territory and commit a few war crimes.  Maybe if they weren't killing children and journalists, then maybe no one would fire rockets at them.  It's a not all unlike the South African regimes.  Most Israelis should just stop supporting people like Netanyahu who are way too hawkish.  If pigs can fly and Jesus returns, it would be better than this.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 21, 2021, 12:02:19 pm
Which side is committing more war crimes?

It’s the side indiscriminately firing rockets into population centers to kill civilians. Purposefully which is different from accidentally.

It’s the side using human shields.

It’s the side using child soldiers.

It’s the side using suicide bombers, teaching kids they will go to heaven as a martyr if they die in combat.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Aristocrat on May 21, 2021, 12:13:32 pm
I like Muslims fine the ones who aren't blowing things up and being extremist or cramming their opinions down your throat.  Plenty just mind their own business and I like them fine.  As for Israel being called an apartheid regime, hardly.  But when folks are constantly attacking you, well you have to keep them separate and  contained for security reasons.  Maybe if they weren't firing rockets or picking up chunks of stone or pavement to throw at people, then maybe they wouldn't have to be kept separate.  It's a big difference from the former South African regimes.  Most Palestinians should just migrate to other nearby Muslim Arab countries.  If water can be desalinated and soil in any areas are decent or can be made decent, it would be better than this. 

You clearly have a very rudimentary understanding of what's going on, don't you? If you didn't you'd understand how ridiculous it is to expect Palestinians to abandon masjid Al-Aqsa, the 3rd holiest site in Islam. Despite Zionists invading their homeland and claiming it as theirs, Palestinians are willing to compromise and allow the Zionists to keep what they took as long as they leave the Palestinians alone and allow them to form their own state in the West Bank and Gaza.

Cramming opinions down others throats? This from the guy who must've made about 15 threads of why teaching in China is better.

Are you South African? Were your grandparents kicked out of the home they built? Was your dad put in jail for trying to take his son to the beach? Are you Muslim or Religious at all? Can you appreciate the significance of masjid Al-Aqsa to ALL Muslims around the world who go there for Umrah?

Stick to what you know, which doesn't sound like much.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: hangook77 on May 21, 2021, 12:14:05 pm
I like Israelis fine the ones who aren't committing war crimes and being extremist or cramming their opinions down your throat.  Plenty just mind their own business and I like them fine.  As for Israel being called an apartheid regime, definitely.  When folks are constantly attacking you, well you definitely don't have to expand your territory and commit a few war crimes.  Maybe if they weren't killing children and journalists, then maybe no one would fire rockets at them.  It's a not all unlike the South African regimes.  Most Israelis should just stop supporting people like Netanyahu who are way too hawkish.  If pigs can fly and Jesus returns, it would be better than this.


Expand what territory?  Their borders have been the same since 1967 which happened when the others attacked them and invaded them.  Israel won after being attacked.  Did Japan and Germany have to get back their territory after they were the aggressors in WW II?  Hardly.  Yet Israel who was the winner has to give back all their land now.  They invaded Israel not the other way around.  Gaza was a part of Egypt and the West Bank was a part of Jordan.  Maybe, folks should move back to their original countries if they don't like it.  They attacked Israel, not the other way around.  If you fire at my home, I will fire back at you.  No apartheid going on here, but keeping security barriers due to attacks becomes necessary. 
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: tylerthegloob on May 21, 2021, 12:17:02 pm
Which side is committing more war crimes?
so if one country commits war crimes then the other country gets a free pass to commit war crimes too?
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: pkjh on May 21, 2021, 12:18:10 pm
Maybe, folks should move back to their original countries if they don't like it.
So, most of the Israelis should go back to Europe?
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 21, 2021, 12:18:22 pm
The military wing of Hamas interprets the use of children as a legitimate tool in its fight against the state of Israel. The radicalisation of young people occurs through a process known as dawa (invitation or call to Islam), which is also used in jihadist indoctrination and which in its higher stages leads to the commission of terrorist attacks.

The indoctrination of child soldiers of Hamas, a terrorist organisation according to the United States and the European Union, begins in primary and pre-school. At various camps, commemorations and graduation ceremonies, children have been seen wearing toy rifles and pretending to get Israeli blood on their hands.  The Hamasist campaign has focused in recent years on increasing its 'pedagogical' material through the dawa. This process has been adapted to the Palestinian cause by emphasising the threat posed by Zionism, as well as the duty to avenge martyrs and engage in resistance and intifada.

Anti-Israeli radicalisation starts in schools, homes and the media where Hamas political elites have great influence. Once radicalised, children acquire the status of soldiers when they are recruited as part of the military section, from where they are incited and ordered to commit terrorist attacks.

Studies by the Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Center have shown how Hamas has recruited, enlisted and involved children as combatants in hostilities, subsequently providing a falsified casualty count to the Gaza authorities and in complete violation of the 1989 UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

https://atalayar.com/en/content/israeli-palestinian-conflict-and-hamas-child-soldiers

Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: tylerthegloob on May 21, 2021, 12:19:26 pm
Expand what territory?
since you love wikipedia, do a bit of reading

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Aristocrat on May 21, 2021, 12:23:56 pm
Which side is committing more war crimes?

Israel and it's not a war, it's genocide.

It’s the side indiscriminately firing rockets into population centers to kill civilians. Purposefully which is different from accidentally.

Kind of difficult to be accurate when you're making homemade rockets. Funny that, despite having the most sophisticated weapons on Earth the IDF still manages to kill FAR more civilians than Hamas.

It’s the side using human shields.

Evidence, please.

It’s the side using child soldiers.

You're 14 and your dad and older brother has been detained without trial. IDF soldiers/thugs mock and harass your mom at checkpoints on a daily basis. The IDF have just thrown you out the house that's been in your family since your great grandfather so a Jewish guy from Brooklyn can get a free home and citizenship.

It’s the side using suicide bombers, teaching kids they will go to heaven as a martyr if they die in combat.

Nice try
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: hangook77 on May 21, 2021, 12:27:40 pm
since you love wikipedia, do a bit of reading

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement

Israel was invaded in the 1967 war and not the other way around.  They kept some of their territory as a buffer.  Losing sides that initiate wars do have to give up territory sometimes.  Ask Germany and Japan.  Did they get their land back after wars they started?  Don't think so.  Jordan belonged to the West Bank and Gaza belonged to Egypt.  When they invaded, Israel kept it as a buffer against future invasion.  The Israeli military wasn't what it is today.  They were quite vulnerable to invasion from well armed neighbors due to Soviet military aid.  When Israel won these territories, they should have sent their citizens back to their countries.  When Russia took over parts of Germany after WW2, they expelled the Germans living there.  Germany invaded Russia, so they brought it on itself. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 21, 2021, 12:34:38 pm
They are firing missiles from schools, hospitals, and mosques.

Then when the place from which they are firing from gets hit, they use that as evidence of how ‘evil’ Israel is.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Kyndo on May 21, 2021, 12:36:56 pm
The Israeli/Palestinian conflict has been going on for decades, and internet flame wars on that topic have been ongoing for nearly the same length of time.

Neither side has especially clean hands, and the situation, sadly, doesn't currently appear to have any kind of solution that is acceptable to both parties.

Rather than argue about who's to blame/more to blame/etc, it would be cool if we could get back to the topic of China's involvement.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: pkjh on May 21, 2021, 12:46:54 pm
The Israeli/Palestinian conflict has been going on for decades, and internet flame wars on that topic have been ongoing for nearly the same length of time.
Just nitpicking here, it's ,more like since the mid-90s. Most people didn't have access to the internet before then. Heck, most people didn't have computers at home before then.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: thunderlips on May 21, 2021, 12:48:16 pm
Just nitpicking here, it's ,more like since the mid-90s. Most people didn't have access to the internet before then. Heck, most people didn't have computers at home before then.


You were born in the 90's huh?
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Kyndo on May 21, 2021, 12:49:17 pm
Oh, sure. But but saying ".... for nearly half that length of time." wouldn't really convey what I was trying to get across.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 21, 2021, 01:37:57 pm
Don't think so.  Jordan belonged to the West Bank and Gaza belonged to Egypt.  When they invaded, Israel kept it as a buffer against future invasion. 
You should read up on Jordanian participation in the various Middle Eastern wars of the 60s and 70s. There are some, uh, questions about how much they really were fighting the Israelis. Not to mention, I think the units they threw in first coincidentally happened to be filled with people the regime didn't care for.

Put it this way
King Hussein: "Oh no, woe is me. I have lost the West Bank and with it a bunch of Palestinian refugees who might one day go after my royal family. "

Mideast politics makes Game of Thrones look simple in comparison.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 21, 2021, 01:42:12 pm
Just nitpicking here, it's ,more like since the mid-90s. Most people didn't have access to the internet before then. Heck, most people didn't have computers at home before then.
I had internet back in 1988. My family were early adapters. That being said, through the mid-90s people were optimistic because of Arafat and Rabin and Camp David. Plus the fall of Communism made people think we were on the verge of a peaceful age. Nowhere near as bad as now. But yeah, people still did flame back then.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: hangook77 on May 21, 2021, 01:50:30 pm
So, most of the Israelis should go back to Europe?

No, they should go back to their ancestral lands which are Israel before they were expelled centuries ago.  Gaza was a part of Egypt and the West Bank was a part of Jordan.  The Golan Height were a part of Syria.  They all attacked Israel and came back for seconds and thirds in the 1970's.  Israel was a much weaker country then and did not have full support of the US unlike today.  They had to fight for their survival. 



But if you must know, Europe has anti semetism problems even today in Europe.  So, Jews often feel the need to return to their traditional and historical homeland.


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/26/world/europe/france-holocaust-survivor-murder.html

She Survived the Holocaust, to Die in a 2018 Hate Crime

PARIS — An 85-year-old woman who as a child narrowly escaped France’s most notorious wartime roundup of Jews has been murdered in Paris, and the authorities are calling it a hate crime.

"""""The body of the woman, Mireille Knoll, was found on Friday in her apartment in the city’s working-class 11th Arrondissement. She had been stabbed to death, and her body was partly burned after her attackers apparently tried to set fire to the apartment.

The Paris prosecutor’s office said on Monday that Ms. Knoll had been killed because of the “membership, real or supposed, of the victim of a particular religion” — a roundabout way of saying she was killed because she was Jewish.

Ms. Knoll was a child in Paris when, in the summer of 1942, the French police, cooperating with the Germans, rounded up thousands of the city’s Jews, stuffing them into a cycling stadium, the Vélodrome d’Hiver. Virtually all were subsequently murdered at Auschwitz."""""
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: hangook77 on May 21, 2021, 01:52:04 pm
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56845041



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46150677


Kristallnacht anniversary: France warns of steep rise in anti-Semitism

Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: pkjh on May 21, 2021, 02:05:13 pm
You were born in the 90's huh?
I wish...lol

I had internet back in 1988. My family were early adapters. That being said, through the mid-90s people were optimistic because of Arafat and Rabin and Camp David. Plus the fall of Communism made people think we were on the verge of a peaceful age. Nowhere near as bad as now. But yeah, people still did flame back then.
Where your parents university professors? Because none of the telcos offered internet service until the mid-90s, maybe like 1993 at the earliest. It wasn't made public until 1993-ish.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: pkjh on May 21, 2021, 02:07:41 pm
1991...

https://thenextweb.com/news/20-years-ago-today-the-world-wide-web-opened-to-the-public
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Aristocrat on May 21, 2021, 02:13:24 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXn4rgtlgqw&ab_channel=TheMuslimVibeTheMuslimVibe
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: tylerthegloob on May 21, 2021, 02:18:35 pm
Israel was invaded in the 1967 war and not the other way around.  They kept some of their territory as a buffer.  Losing sides that initiate wars do have to give up territory sometimes.
i guess you didnt bother reading. it has nothing to do with 1967. the expansion has continued in recent years. it's even been denounced by the US (at least it until trump)
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 21, 2021, 02:23:32 pm
The 1949, 1967, and 2021 borders look the same.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: tylerthegloob on May 21, 2021, 02:32:25 pm
the settlements don't respect the borders
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 21, 2021, 02:40:11 pm
I wish...lol
Where your parents university professors? Because none of the telcos offered internet service until the mid-90s, maybe like 1993 at the earliest. It wasn't made public until 1993-ish.
My mom was a public school librarian. As such she was responsible for early computer stuff and that's how we had internet access. Also, my dad's business revolved around computerized data processing and he'd been working on computers since the 1960s (like punch cards and COBOL when he was in the Army and such) and was able to help set everything up. I think he also had internet at his work, hence why we were early adapters. I know we had Prodigy and something before that I'm really vague on.

Wolfenstein 3D came out in 1992 and I was rockin internet well before that.

EDIT...Okay the time I can think I was contemporary with the internet is when I was playing Strike Fleet on the Apple IIgs and Battlehawks 1942 on the PC. That would be 1988. I was playing Silpheed and Wings of Fury in 1987 and I don't think I had internet then. It had to be 1988. 1990 was King's Bounty and Ultima VI and I know I had it then.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Liechtenstein on May 21, 2021, 03:39:47 pm
Why am I not surprised that it's Hangook and the guy who thinks most Muslims are extremists because of a Twitter post by a Muslim MMA fighter criticising the French president?

Multiple reasons:

- They were the first group of people to believe in one God and challenge the status quo of worshipping pharaohs and idols.
- They were blamed for the death of Prophet Isa/Jesus Christ.
- They have a strong communal bond which makes others distrust them
- They're not any better or worse at making money than anyone else, but when you have a strong communal bond you tend to support those within your community making business a lot easier.

Either way, Religion has got diddly-squat to do with going on in Palestine. It's a perfect storm of a political mess and Britain (having conveniently taken 10 steps back) is one of the biggest architects.

Palestine is a Holy land for ALL 3 Abrahamic faiths.
In a similar way that the extremism of national socialism took hold of Germany, Zionism has infected the mindset of Israelis and other Jews and Zionism is a VERY new political movement that argues that The Holy Land is the exclusive home of Jewish people and everyone else can f*ck off... Sorry, that's not how it works. There's nothing in the Torah that says anything about the Jews being the sole inhabitants of The Holy Land, that's some made up Zionist BS. There're a hell of a lot of Jews opposed to the state of Israel because, guess what, they understand their Torah and their Faith. Do you two Atheists claim to understand their Faith better than them?

The Jews were oppressed, Zionism was born. Palestinians were oppressed, Hamas was born. Hate breeds hate.

Israel is and apartheid regime, end of story.

This was well said.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 21, 2021, 05:44:57 pm
Nice try

It's true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOjd3vclQlU

[1:38]

"When we die as martyrs, we will go to heaven."
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 21, 2021, 05:50:28 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axe_NcIEfsU

Abu Mazen once again expressed support for terrorists who murdered innocent Israelis, calling them "martyrs whose place is in heaven". His public support for the terrorists and his refraining from condemning terror attacks serve as a clear message that continues to fuel the incitement to violence and terror. The international community must condemn Abu Mazen's comments and demand that he stop the incitement.

Israel continues to expose the incitement in the Palestinian Authority.  In all of his meetings with other leaders, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu shows them this video on this topic.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 21, 2021, 07:01:42 pm
Question L I - Do you place the same weight of sentiment on Americans who say "Just bomb the whole place" or "The whole Middle East should just be nuked" or "F them towel...." or any number of things? I could search through a bunch of American RW media and find stuff that advocates just as much violence and destruction.

With anything you usually have a hardcore cadre of 10% who are fanatics to the cause. Another 20% who might join and do some stuff, but it takes some motivation. And finally another 20% who range from "well wishes" to "vocal fanatics who shout loudly but do absolutely nothing". The remaining 50% could give F all and are more concerned with the price of bread and their kids' grades in school but nominally throw support behind something 1~3/365 days out of a sense of tradition.

Whether it's here or there, people are the same. You can always find a group of people screaming that certain people should be bombed because they suck. 

FFS, I could probably find some videotaped rant threatening violence against- Trump, Biden, Israel, Hezbollah, The Dallas Cowboys, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, Cardi B, Elon Musk, Bit Coin, A Rival Kpop boy band, J.J. Abrams, Galileo, and Weird Al Yankovic.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Aristocrat on May 21, 2021, 07:42:19 pm
Question L I - Do you place the same weight of sentiment on Americans who say "Just bomb the whole place" or "The whole Middle East should just be nuked" or "F them towel...." or any number of things? I could search through a bunch of American RW media and find stuff that advocates just as much violence and destruction.

With anything you usually have a hardcore cadre of 10% who are fanatics to the cause. Another 20% who might join and do some stuff, but it takes some motivation. And finally another 20% who range from "well wishes" to "vocal fanatics who shout loudly but do absolutely nothing". The remaining 50% could give F all and are more concerned with the price of bread and their kids' grades in school but nominally throw support behind something 1~3/365 days out of a sense of tradition.

Whether it's here or there, people are the same. You can always find a group of people screaming that certain people should be bombed because they suck. 

FFS, I could probably find some videotaped rant threatening violence against- Trump, Biden, Israel, Hezbollah, The Dallas Cowboys, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, Cardi B, Elon Musk, Bit Coin, A Rival Kpop boy band, J.J. Abrams, Galileo, and Weird Al Yankovic.

I really shouldn't have posted that video of the Jewish Professor Norman Finkelstein calling out Israel on their genocide. With LI and Hangook, that's just going to get them posting a whole bunch of video links they save on their hardrive for this, their 'special occasions' and NOBODY
wants to see that.

You posted a sketchy news report from 2014 and a literal Israeli government propaganda video which most people have figured out as it has over 1300 dislikes to 830 likes. 
You think Palestine has such slick state sponsored, high production propaganda videos?

If I was a Palestinian I'd probably be gunning for IDF thugs too, so what? La Resistance was a thing when their country was being occupied by Nazi invaders.

Most Palestinians aren't asking for much more than to be left alone with what little they have left, I think that's a hell of a lot more than reasonable. Israel is your CCP in the Middle-East with their propaganda machine, money, military and hateful quest for genocide.

Support them if you wish, but it doesn't look like you're not going to convince anyone here... certainly not with those crappy videos.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 21, 2021, 08:01:59 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN1MkAGuVyY

Is the Israeli military a paragon of morality and wartime ethics? Or is it an oppressive force that targets innocent Palestinian civilians and commits war crimes as a matter of policy? Colonel Richard Kemp, who was the commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, was in Israel during its war against Hamas in 2014, and analyzes whether Israel's military is ethical, evil, or somewhere in between.

Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 22, 2021, 12:57:56 pm
Care to answer the question L I? Do you apply the same standard to Americans expressing violent sentiment towards the Middle East and Islam as you do to Palestinians?

If you do, fine. Carry on. If you don't then you're just being arbitrary and tribal.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 22, 2021, 01:26:43 pm
If that was on American TV (which it is not) then yes I would condemn that, too. Hope that answers your question. But seems like a false equivalence. Not sure why you're repeating that.
___________________ ___

The discourse in the Muslim world about Jews is utterly shocking. Not only is there Holocaust denial—there’s Holocaust denial that then asserts that we will do it for real if given the chance. The only thing more obnoxious than denying the Holocaust is to say that it should have happened; it didn’t happen, but if we get the chance, we will accomplish it. There are children’s shows in the Palestinian territories and elsewhere that teach five-year-olds about the glories of martyrdom and about the necessity of killing Jews.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/sam-harris-why-dont-i-criticize-israel
___________________ ___________________ _______________

Hamas Kindergarten graduation ceremony
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRuuDI0KCR8

Mother of terrorist who stabbed 13-year-old girl to death: “My son is a hero. He made me proud"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XNwK4Zm754

Song promotes killing Jews, denies Jewish ties to land: “I’m coming at you with a machine gun...”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4Yybze98ZU

Hamas animation encourages stabbings, shootings, and ramming attacks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9WnL434Evc

Hamas TV cartoon for kids: Jews endanger Al-Aqsa mosque by digging under it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y4lBqIXaU0

Hamas to kids: Shoot all the Jews
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ORAM-usqhQ

Hezbollah cartoon teaches kids to throw stones at Israelis and to seek death as Martyrs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f34BBha6z2g
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 22, 2021, 01:39:06 pm
Do you apply the same standard to Americans expressing violent sentiment towards the Middle East and Islam as you do to Palestinians?

I've never heard encountered that. The only one on here expressing violent sentiment is this guy:

If I was a Palestinian I'd probably be gunning for IDF thugs too, so what?

Those people are conscripts. All Israeli men and women join the Israel Defense Force. They're not thugs. They don't deserve to be shot.

___________________ ___________________ ___________________ _
And the only one expressing racist sentiment is this guy:

Ask yourself the hard question. Why have the Jewish people been attacked, scapegoated and expelled throughout history?
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 22, 2021, 02:00:12 pm
the settlements don't respect the borders

They are not kicking people out of their homes and stealing their home, but simply living there. In new houses. In small numbers. Just like how 21% of the population living inside Israel is Arab.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 22, 2021, 02:06:45 pm
Evidence, please.

I read it here:

Who uses human shields? Well, Hamas certainly does. They shoot their rockets from residential neighborhoods, from beside schools, and hospitals, and mosques. Muslims in other recent conflicts, in Iraq and elsewhere, have also used human shields. They have laid their rifles on the shoulders of their own children and shot from behind their bodies.

Consider the moral difference between using human shields and being deterred by them. That is the difference we’re talking about. The Israelis and other Western powers are deterred, however imperfectly, by the Muslim use of human shields in these conflicts, as we should be. It is morally abhorrent to kill noncombatants if you can avoid it. It’s certainly abhorrent to shoot through the bodies of children to get at your adversary. But take a moment to reflect on how contemptible this behavior is. And understand how cynical it is. The Muslims are acting on the assumption—the knowledge, in fact—that the infidels with whom they fight, the very people whom their religion does nothing but vilify, will be deterred by their use of Muslim human shields.


https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/sam-harris-why-dont-i-criticize-israel
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 22, 2021, 02:14:01 pm
Funny that, despite having the most sophisticated weapons on Earth the IDF still manages to kill FAR more civilians than Hamas.

It is clear that Israel is losing the PR war and has been for years now. One of the most galling things for outside observers about the current war in Gaza is the disproportionate loss of life on the Palestinian side. This doesn’t make a lot of moral sense. Israel built bomb shelters to protect its citizens. The Palestinians built tunnels through which they could carry out terror attacks and kidnap Israelis. Should Israel be blamed for successfully protecting its population in a defensive war?

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/sam-harris-why-dont-i-criticize-israel
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 22, 2021, 02:22:43 pm
Hamas is not Palestine, it's a militant resistance movement and one of many.

We are talking about a government that was voted into power by a majority of Palestinians. [Note: Yes, I know that not every Palestinian supports Hamas, but enough do to have brought them to power. Hamas is not a fringe group.]

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/sam-harris-why-dont-i-criticize-israel
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: VanIslander on May 22, 2021, 04:17:10 pm
Israel vs. China.
David vs. Goliath.

We know how that story turns out.

Excuse me while I wrestle a mongoose, wolverine and a Tazmanian devil.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Aristocrat on May 22, 2021, 06:26:11 pm
LI, you have no concept of objectivity. When I post videos or sources, which I don't like to do very often, they argue my point from an objective source.
Jewish professor with parents, on both sides having being murdered in concentration camps, is willing to fully condemn Israel and it's genocide.
Tons of Jews standing up against Israel. Can you find even half as many Muslims prepared to back Israel? 

6 videos from the same source... Palwatch

"Palestinian Media Watch is an Israeli research institute founded in 1996 that studies Palestinian society and trends from a broad range of perspectives..."

So, you expect me to believe this source to give an objective and unbiased view of the Palestinians? They've posted hundreds of videos and every single one of them puts Palestinians in the worst light and makes the Israelis
out to be nothing short of innocent, benevolent Godsends. Yeah, they have no agenda at all... 

In that Sam Harris article he makes it a Jewish vs. Muslim thing and goes on to spend the entire article attacking Muslims with the usual names.
Absolutely f*ck all mention of the political or geopolitical issues, the failed and rash displacement of Jews to Palestinian post WW2 by the allies, particularly Britain, US funding to Israel to create
a strategic ally in the Middle-East heck, even the Six-Day war.

No, what I had the displeasure of reading were the rantings of another militant Atheist totally incapable of being objective and obsessed with everyone else embracing his beliefs of his glorified teenage rebellion... what a douche, f*ck Sam Harris and everyone who looks like him.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: fka on May 22, 2021, 07:10:04 pm
L I's approach to sharing that Sam Harris article is even more annoying than it looks on the surface. He's been really selective, neglecting the sections in which Harris condemns the Israeli settlements, acknowledges Israeli war crimes, etc.

I actually don't hate Sam Harris. I read all his books and his blog in the mid-2000s, and I've listened to dozens of episodes of his podcast. I don't think he's a racist, or fascist sympathizer. He's been woefully misrepresented by some of his critics, which reflects much more poorly on them than it does on him. I disagree with him about the severity of the threat that Twitter SJWs really represent, but given how he's been characterized by some of them, I can't really blame him for developing that weird obsession. The sensible option would have been to stop paying attention to nutcases on Twitter, but I guess he decided to choose another path. 

That said, some of the criticisms against him do hold. His perspective on political issues is often distorted by his focus on religion, which makes him offer these ahistorical takes on everything, filtered through religion. L I's Tablet article is such a perfect example of that. It's all about Koranic scripture and the Hamas charter, not the actual lived experience of Palestinians. He provides no empirical evidence to support his "Hamas uses human shields" argument, which is a long-standing trope of pro-Israeli propaganda, but nevertheless feels qualified to connect it to Islam, and by extension Hamas, and by further extension the people of Palestine. No consideration of the fact that there is no possibility whatsoever of Palestinian armed resistance existed outside of civilian infrastructure. It's not as if Israel is going to allow them to build a military base.

I really hate doing the logicbro thing, but since Sam Harris's fans are often the worst offenders, it feels perversely appropriate. Using Sam Harris ("a smart person") as a reference for Israel / Palestine issues is a textbook appeal to authority fallacy. Harris is well qualified to talk about philosophy, neuroscience and mindfulness. He has no special qualifications to speak on Middle East politics. His analysis basically mirrors anyone who's read a few editorials in a mainstream American newspaper. No deeper or more authoritative than that.

And in the spirit of posting unsolicited links, a great critique of Harris's misguided forays into politics:

https://youtu.be/ZeufFHKn4Ps (https://youtu.be/ZeufFHKn4Ps)

Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 22, 2021, 08:33:02 pm
That was a long video of pontificating, much like many talk on here. Didn't convince me, wasn't interesting, and didn't learn anything. A waste of time.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 22, 2021, 08:34:06 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvD2WCtB26k
[Sam Harris at 3:21]
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 22, 2021, 09:02:27 pm
The Gaza Strip is ruled by Hamas.

Israel has been completely out of the Gaza Strip since 2005.

Zero Israelis live there or go there.

Instigatory first shots result in return fire.

If Hamas didn't keep firing rockets there wouldn't be civilian casualties.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: fka on May 22, 2021, 09:58:23 pm
That was a long video of pontificating, much like many talk on here. Didn't convince me, wasn't interesting, and didn't learn anything. A waste of time.

Some topics can't be reduced to single sentences (more complex).

Discussion of those topics takes longer (deeper analysis).

 
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: Aristocrat on May 22, 2021, 10:12:37 pm
[Sam Harris at 3:21]

There's another thread about bromance. You, Sam Harris and Magnum P.I over here come to mind. Are you capable of not sharing the views of a someone who isn't a conservative, right-wing white guy?

There's no reason Palestinians shouldn't have the basic human right to autonomy and their own state.
There's no reason Jews, Muslims and Christians shouldn't be able to live in the same space.
There's no reason for The Holy Land to be the exclusive home of one group of people, nowhere in the Torah does it say so.
There's no reason to treat people of one race or ethnic identity different than the other, that's apartheid, son.

You're as hypocritical as Israel which calls itself a Democracy. I've no love for the Saudi royal family or the government, but even Saudi Arabia allows Jews and Christians to live and work there and it's been a damn monarchy for 1500yrs.
Be a man and call yourself a fascist, or move to China/Israel, it's better than being a weasel who lives in and enjoys a Democratic country while condemning the core tenants of liberty.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think I speak for everyone here when I say nobody is going to watch another nauseating fluff piece video you post.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 22, 2021, 10:43:49 pm
Sam Harris can intelligently speak at length on a variety of topics because he is so well read. Bill Maher has similar views. They love liberty. So do I.
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 22, 2021, 10:44:49 pm
Why TREVOR NOAH and JOHN OLIVER are wrong about ISRAEL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SazutwDaEg
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 23, 2021, 06:52:27 am
Israel is one of the most free and most prosperous countries in the world. Not only is Israel a booming economy and a wellspring of innovation, it is the only democracy in the Middle East. So why is it so controversial to support the Jewish state? Stephen Harper, the 22nd Prime Minister of Canada, lays out several fundamental truths about America’s most critical ally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXy4NXbuE-k

Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: fka on May 23, 2021, 10:35:03 am
Israel is one of the most free and most prosperous countries in the world. Not only is Israel a booming economy and a wellspring of innovation, it is the only democracy in the Middle East.


That really depends on how you define "democracy" and "The Middle East". Numerous countries in that region have elected parliaments. And, of course, there are about 5 million Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza who can't participate in Israeli democracy, so again, "democracy" is a very conditional term.

Quote
According to The Economist Group's Democracy Index 2020 study, Israel is the only democratic country (qualified as a "flawed democracy", ranked #28 worldwide) in the Middle East, while Tunisia (#53 worldwide) is the only democracy (also "flawed democracy") in North Africa.[1] The level of democracy in nations throughout the world published by Freedom House, a U.S.-based,[2] U.S. government-funded[3][4] advocacy organization, and in various other freedom indices, report the Middle Eastern and North African countries with the highest scores are Israel, Tunisia, Turkey, Lebanon, Morocco, Jordan and Kuwait. Countries that are occasionally classified as partly democratic are Egypt, Iran, and Iraq. The remaining countries of the Middle East are categorized as authoritarian regimes, with the lowest scores held by Saudi Arabia and Yemen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_the_Middle_East_and_North_Africa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_the_Middle_East_and_North_Africa)
Title: Re: China speak out against Israeli / Palestinian conflict.
Post by: L I on May 23, 2021, 11:59:35 am
"According to The Economist Group's Democracy Index 2020 study, Israel is the only democratic country in the Middle East."

Yes. I agree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_the_Middle_East_and_North_Africa#Annual_assessment