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All about South Korea => Life in Korea => Topic started by: hangook77 on March 15, 2021, 08:07:37 am

Title: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: hangook77 on March 15, 2021, 08:07:37 am
How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?  Seems a disconnect between EPIK and provincial offices hiring practices and pay rates offered versus what teachers need and want.  Seems one is not listening to the other. 
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Aristocrat on March 15, 2021, 08:29:34 am
How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?  Seems a disconnect between EPIK and provincial offices hiring practices and pay rates offered versus what teachers need and want.  Seems one is not listening to the other. 

Korean teachers want someone who wont be a pain in the ass. Experienced teachers generally wont ask for help on how to do things and will get the job done without much assistance. There are exceptions and Korean teachers might not be looking for experienced teachers, but rather someone who is agreeable.

As a whole, the government's opinion matters most (more than us, Korean teachers, students or parents) and the government has the option to either:

- Pay for experienced teachers, overhaul the entire education system and really get things in order

or

- Do the bare minimum to maintain the facade to poor parents who can't afford to send their kids to fancy hagwons that their kids will be given just as equal an opportunity as the rich kids who get in to SKY universities.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: MayorHaggar on March 15, 2021, 10:17:30 am
The 2.2m a month tape player foreigner is the KET's dream subordinate.

It's only a matter of time before NET robots take over. After all they're willing to work for just 1.2m a month and a can of WD-40, and don't demand trips to evil Japan. And they don't endlessly waste all their "class prep time" trolling on Waygook about ways to make 4m a month with no effort.

(https://im-media.voltron.voanews.com/Drupal/01live-166/styles/892x501/s3/2019-04/6C15CB9B-D1D3-4D6C-8A6F-75A54BCE536F.jpg)

(https://www.inspiredtraveler.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Terminator-gets-an-anime-series-on-Netflix-from-the-Batman.jpg)
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: buckybee on March 15, 2021, 01:22:01 pm
LOL what if they had full on androids that are designed to fix every sentence that is spoken in the classroom and sends class recordings to the office of education. Let the Chaos ensue.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Aristocrat on March 15, 2021, 01:46:44 pm
I swear, the POEs ideas on English education must've been concocted by Mr Bean.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on March 15, 2021, 02:19:08 pm
Korean teachers want someone who wont be a pain in the ass. Experienced teachers generally wont ask for help on how to do things and will get the job done without much assistance. There are exceptions and Korean teachers might not be looking for experienced teachers, but rather someone who is agreeable.

As a whole, the government's opinion matters most (more than us, Korean teachers, students or parents) and the government has the option to either:

- Pay for experienced teachers, overhaul the entire education system and really get things in order

or

- Do the bare minimum to maintain the facade to poor parents who can't afford to send their kids to fancy hagwons that their kids will be given just as equal an opportunity as the rich kids who get in to SKY universities.
I dunno, seems they're getting decent bang for the buck. Plenty of Koreans can communicate reasonably well in Korean. I think the government is at the point of diminishing returns for what it would get out of it. Sure, you could double the salary and get double the experience, but would you get double the proficiency from what, 2 days of English class a week for one hour each? Say you add a 3rd day, would you get double the English ability by 6th grade with all of that?

What should they do? Hire double the English teachers and split the class of 30 kids in two for more attention? Would that double their proficiency?

What's the economic benefit of this for society? Is Korea THAT lacking in English proficiency and ability? Are they failing in global business because of it? What are we trying to do? Ensure high-level English proficiency for a worker at Burger King dealing with perhaps 4 foreign customers out of 200 they deal with in a day? Do they need to pronounce "Whopper" with a native accent?

Is this only going to happen with English? What about science? What about math? What about physical education? Have you seen kids today? They're getting pudgy.

Sometimes I think people here have unreasonable expectations regarding Korean English education.

Sorry, I see the case for incremental improvement. I don't see the need for a massive overhaul and dramatically increasing expenditure.

Keep in mind, you institute a national mandate, this has to apply to ALL districts. Even those in EffingNowhere, Gangwando and Gilligando Island
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: bigfishlittlefish on March 15, 2021, 02:41:58 pm
I feel that Korean teachers probably want an experienced NET, as in somebody experienced in that position in Korea.  An experienced teacher coming in with glorified ideals that they're going to change the system is probably right at the bottom of the list of what they want.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Aristocrat on March 15, 2021, 02:44:48 pm
I dunno, seems they're getting decent bang for the buck.

When it comes to the national budget for English education, the money goes to places besides salaries and many of those places are money pits.

That aside, you could pay more to hire a more experienced teacher, but all that means nothing if said teacher has to adhere to a curriculum that makes absolutely no sense, compared to traditional and modern pedagogical approaches, or if a student has worked out, and takes advantage of the fact, that simply attending classes and doing jack sh*t is enough to be promoted to the next grade.
You could hire an Ivy league grad, with a PHD and 20yrs experience, but it means nothing if you force him/her to teach "She is a bag designer? The entire system needs a complete overhaul and I'm not just referring to English.

I didn't tell Koreans to bone up on their English, they did. I didn't put comically convoluted English grammar questions
in the Suneung, Korea did.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on March 15, 2021, 03:00:18 pm
When it comes to the national budget for English education, the money goes to places besides salaries and many of those places are money pits.

That aside, you could pay more to hire a more experienced teacher, but all that means nothing if said teacher has to adhere to a curriculum that makes absolutely no sense, compared to traditional and modern pedagogical approaches, or if a student has worked out, and takes advantage of the fact, that simply attending classes and doing jack sh*t is enough to be promoted to the next grade.
You could hire an Ivy league grad, with a PHD and 20yrs experience, but it means nothing if you force him/her to teach "She is a bag designer? The entire system needs a complete overhaul and I'm not just referring to English.

I didn't tell Koreans to bone up on their English, they did. I didn't put comically convoluted English grammar questions
in the Suneung, Korea did.
Okay, but even with this complete overhaul of the entire English curriculum AND hire more expensive teachers. How much more benefit would you get?

And what are you going to do? Flunk 15-30% of your students every year because they suck at one subject at 10 years old? Do you have any idea what kind of costs will accumulate with that? You're going to get overcrowding and kids that just do not advance. You think our schools back home are flunking 4th graders because they get a crappy grade in Spanish?

Unless a kid has a serious developmental disability or study issue, there is zero reason to hold them back until high school. Not with all the rules tied to adulthood, public funding, etc.

When implementing education for a population, you have to accept that some kids aren't that bright and that some kids aren't going to college. You can't start holding them back simply because they suck at one subject and screwing up things.

Is the cost-benefit really there? Would this overhaul truly be worth the price? And why the focus just on English?

When you run an education system, you have to focus on all subjects and all kinds of students, not just a single field and goal
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: pkjh on March 15, 2021, 03:31:24 pm
Unless you put students in a full emersion program, I doubt any number of 'experts', or higher number of classes, or improved methods, will improve the proficiency of English in Korea. You'll get the same 10% at the top, 80% in the middle, and the bottom 10% that will barely know what an 'A' looks like. Just look at other countries like.... ehem... Canada... cough... cough... trying to teach their second official language.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: JNM on March 15, 2021, 05:44:43 pm
With hiring in general:

“A” managers hire “A” (or “A+”) staff so they look good.
“B” managers hire “C” staff for the same reason.

Even though they don’t do the hiring, I think the formula holds.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Kyndo on March 16, 2021, 07:35:20 am
Unless you put students in a full emersion program, I doubt any number of 'experts', or higher number of classes, or improved methods, will improve the proficiency of English in Korea. You'll get the same 10% at the top, 80% in the middle, and the bottom 10% that will barely know what an 'A' looks like. Just look at other countries like.... ehem... Canada... cough... cough... trying to teach their second official language.

I don't know where you went to school, but in my area of BC, we had the choice of learning either French or Russian (my town had a prevalent Russian Doukhobor history: there are even the occasional street and shop sign in Cyrillic). Second language classes were mandatory until grade 10, and strongly encouraged for 11 and 12 as well.
  Plenty of years later, I can still speak French conversationally, or at least, enough to for small talk and day to day life.
  Most of the people I've kept in touch with who took Russian still speak it pretty well (although most of them took it because their family spoke it at home, so maybe they don't count).

  I get that French is much easier to learn and retain for speakers of other European languages than English is for a Korean speaker, but I also think that the manner in which we are taught our second languages is more effective than the 40 year old pedagogy they use here in Korea.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: hangook77 on March 16, 2021, 07:44:26 am
When it comes to the national budget for English education, the money goes to places besides salaries and many of those places are money pits.

That aside, you could pay more to hire a more experienced teacher, but all that means nothing if said teacher has to adhere to a curriculum that makes absolutely no sense, compared to traditional and modern pedagogical approaches, or if a student has worked out, and takes advantage of the fact, that simply attending classes and doing jack sh*t is enough to be promoted to the next grade.
You could hire an Ivy league grad, with a PHD and 20yrs experience, but it means nothing if you force him/her to teach "She is a bag designer? The entire system needs a complete overhaul and I'm not just referring to English.

I didn't tell Koreans to bone up on their English, they did. I didn't put comically convoluted English grammar questions
in the Suneung, Korea did.

I mean experienced at working in the Korean school system and local culture.  Experienced in the sense the co teacher doesn't have to drive the foreign teacher all over the place translating setting up a bank account, getting a cell phone, frequent babysitting and translating, etc.  I meant experienced in the sense they go to class prepared with materials and activities for class whether it be old school games, add on activities, or even ppt activities to supplement the textbook.  A newbie doesn't know these things and does take a lot of Korean teachers time. 
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: hangook77 on March 16, 2021, 07:45:59 am
I don't know where you went to school, but in my area of BC, we had the choice of learning either French or Russian (my town had a prevalent Russian Doukhobor history: there are even the occasional street and shop sign in Cyrillic). Second language classes were mandatory until grade 10, and strongly encouraged for 11 and 12 as well.
  Plenty of years later, I can still speak French conversationally, or at least, enough to for small talk and day to day life.
  Most of the people I've kept in touch with who took Russian still speak it pretty well (although most of them took it because their family spoke it at home, so maybe they don't count).

  I get that French is much easier to learn and retain for speakers of other European languages than English is for a Korean speaker, but I also think that the manner in which we are taught our second languages is more effective than the 40 year old pedagogy they use here in Korea.


I know a lot of folks who took French in the school system.  Today, their French is poor and very basic.  It really didn't do the trick and in some parts of Canada if you don't speak it fluently, you get discriminated against in jobs and treated as a second class citizen.  Not in BC of course.   
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: pkjh on March 16, 2021, 07:56:10 am
I don't know where you went to school, but in my area of BC, we had the choice of learning either French or Russian (my town had a prevalent Russian Doukhobor history: there are even the occasional street and shop sign in Cyrillic). Second language classes were mandatory until grade 10, and strongly encouraged for 11 and 12 as well.
  Plenty of years later, I can still speak French conversationally, or at least, enough to for small talk and day to day life.
  Most of the people I've kept in touch with who took Russian still speak it pretty well (although most of them took it because their family spoke it at home, so maybe they don't count).

  I get that French is much easier to learn and retain for speakers of other European languages than English is for a Korean speaker, but I also think that the manner in which we are taught our second languages is more effective than the 40 year old pedagogy they use here in Korea.
Alberta, and trust me, most can't speak French if their lives depended on it, despite some 10 years of mandatory French. And I've only met one guy, out I don't know how many, from Vancouver/BC that could speak French, and he took French emersion. I lived in Ottawa a few years too, and despite being on the Quebec border, and a quarter of the city being French speaking, most of the English side can't speak much French.

Also a funny quote from a hockey player the was traded from the Flames to the Habs, "I might be in trouble... I don't speak French, even if I have the most French name on that team.", and this guy was born in a town called Lac La Biche (granted he didn't grow up there)..
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Kyndo on March 16, 2021, 08:05:45 am
Interesting! Maybe it had something to do with the fact that so many of the kids were already bilingual in my area that more importance was put on the second language programmes?

Also, I'm pretty surprised that so few Anglos in Ottawa speak French!

Well... actually, I guess I'm not, considering how few of us NETs actually speak any Korean...  :laugh:

(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/551ab724e4b0a90fec44c0a1/1515446840629-R612XC08PJTLV9R91OZX/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kPoswlzjSVMM-SxOp7CV59BZw-zPPgdn4jUwVcJE1ZvWQUxwkmyExglNqGp0IvTJZamWLI2zvYWH8K3-s_4yszcp2ryTI0HqTOaaUohrI8PI6FXy8c9PWtBlqAVlUS5izpdcIXDZqDYvprRqZ29Pw0o/PjMQuNW.gif)
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on March 16, 2021, 10:16:25 am
Yeah most of these changes in one direction or the other have only marginal effects. The differences in outcomes based on curriculum really aren't THAT great.

Some people seem to be under tgethe impression the Korean system is churning out drooling imbeciles while our systems back home are turning out creative geniuses, including themselves.

Having worked with lots of foreigners and lots of Koreans, not really seeing this dramatic difference in outcomes one way or the other.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: 745sticky on March 16, 2021, 10:25:13 am
And they don't endlessly waste all their "class prep time" trolling on Waygook about ways to make 4m a month with no effort.


I sometimes wonder if certain users on this websites are bots, so I wouldn't be too sure about that one
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: hangook77 on March 16, 2021, 02:29:58 pm
Alberta, and trust me, most can't speak French if their lives depended on it, despite some 10 years of mandatory French. And I've only met one guy, out I don't know how many, from Vancouver/BC that could speak French, and he took French emersion. I lived in Ottawa a few years too, and despite being on the Quebec border, and a quarter of the city being French speaking, most of the English side can't speak much French.

Also a funny quote from a hockey player the was traded from the Flames to the Habs, "I might be in trouble... I don't speak French, even if I have the most French name on that team.", and this guy was born in a town called Lac La Biche (granted he didn't grow up there)..

That tells you a lot about only public school education back home giving minimal instruction during the younger years.  It was a lot like when I first came to Korea.  I met kids who only got some modest English in Elementary and I interacted with them in Middle School.  They couldn't communicate in English at all.  Unlike today's hakwon extra training kids.  So many going to after school academies and self study for adults and more exposure to foreigners too.  It boosted the Korean levels.  Canada does none of this and the second language level for the average Joe is negligible.  A few who are motivated and self learn of course are the exception.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: hangook77 on March 16, 2021, 02:32:03 pm
I sometimes wonder if certain users on this websites are bots, so I wouldn't be too sure about that one

Thankfully, my prep is done due to past two years prep.  Only a small minority of us actually contribute and upload here it seems though.  I worked my ass off on the stuff.  But when the next set of Elementary books come out in a couple of years, you're on your own I think.  I won't be contributing as much.  But you can take my stuff here and others and modify it for reposting if you wish. 
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: pkjh on March 16, 2021, 03:17:12 pm
That tells you a lot about only public school education back home giving minimal instruction during the younger years.  It was a lot like when I first came to Korea.  I met kids who only got some modest English in Elementary and I interacted with them in Middle School.  They couldn't communicate in English at all.  Unlike today's hakwon extra training kids.  So many going to after school academies and self study for adults and more exposure to foreigners too.  It boosted the Korean levels.  Canada does none of this and the second language level for the average Joe is negligible.  A few who are motivated and self learn of course are the exception.
On the other hand, it seems most Quebecers I've bumped into seem to speak very good English. But, I think that has a lot more to do with motivation than quality of education. Korea could have world renown teachers, teaching with proven modern methods, but if 90% of the student aren't motivated, your not going to get more than a few textbook sentences out of your average student here.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: 745sticky on March 16, 2021, 03:31:13 pm
Thankfully, my prep is done due to past two years prep.  Only a small minority of us actually contribute and upload here it seems though.  I worked my ass off on the stuff.  But when the next set of Elementary books come out in a couple of years, you're on your own I think.  I won't be contributing as much.  But you can take my stuff here and others and modify it for reposting if you wish.

Your effort is noted and appreciated, but personally I find it easier to just do my own lesson prep rather than modify others.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: MayorHaggar on March 16, 2021, 06:10:34 pm
If Koreans can speak English well, you can thank hagwons. Public schools in Korea accomplish nothing. If a Korean kid does well in a public school English class it's because he/she attends a hagwon. No, it's not because you're a super special amazing public school teacher with super special amazing students. I used to hear this all the time from NETs who lived in big cities where all their students obviously went to endless hagwons. Public school NETs are just zoo animals paid a handsome salary to keep quiet.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Mr C on March 16, 2021, 09:27:21 pm
If Koreans can speak English well, you can thank hagwons. Public schools in Korea accomplish nothing. If a Korean kid does well in a public school English class it's because he/she attends a hagwon. No, it's not because you're a super special amazing public school teacher with super special amazing students. I used to hear this all the time from NETs who lived in big cities where all their students obviously went to endless hagwons. Public school NETs are just zoo animals paid a handsome salary to keep quiet.

This is somewhat overstated, but I'll just amend it from "attends a hagwon" to "spends two years in an immersion program in New Zealand or southern California".
 
Also, public school teachers are not "zoo animals", more like "zookeepers" or Steve Irwin-style showmen, and we're not "paid a handsome salary" we're paid what used to be a handsome salary eaten away by inflation--just today, my favored breakfast pastry jumped up by 200 W.  I haven't had a raise in 8 years.

And I am under no illusion that even if I were God's gift to teaching, I could transform English learning by my students.  My aim in elementary school is to have them develop a positive attitude to English and instill positive habits of language learning. 

Elements like scaffolding sentences, spelling and sentence syntax with scramble and other puzzles which challenge their natural desires (concentration aka matching. rebuses, hidden pictures, vanishing pictures, etc), fun concepts like conversation with favorite characters--anytime Pororo or Pikachu or Harry Potter comes along, there is an uptick in interest.   The fact that there are a billion bomb games here makes me think they're overused, but a bit of competition has its place, a few times a semester--but please make sure the whole class repeats the question and the answer ...

My co-teachers definitely help during appropriate activities, but actually appreciate the chance to sit at the back and mark their homework notebooks as I lead the activities.  We had 4th grade for the third time today, and they remind me of the last two sixth grades, they were sooo enthusiastic--I commented to my Co that I hoped they would still feel that way when they went on.  She was in agreement.

So, at the elementary level, I don't think it's about actual acquisition as much as it is about attitude.  And we as NETs can definitely help or even make a big difference in that regard. 
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Aristocrat on March 17, 2021, 07:52:52 am
Elements like scaffolding sentences, spelling and sentence syntax with scramble and other puzzles which challenge

I'm willing to bet that the self-deprecating ESL teachers here who think we're nothing more than zoo animals are the same ones who wouldn't have the foggiest idea what scaffolding is.

If Koreans can speak English well, you can thank hagwons. Public schools in Korea accomplish nothing. If a Korean kid does well in a public school English class it's because he/she attends a hagwon.

This is oftentimes true, but it's not necessarily because the hagwon is offering a better educational experience. It's because, unlike public schools, the parents are shelling out hard-earned money to send their kids there and they make their kids all too aware of the fact. There's exponentially more extrinsic motivation for the student to get results. The "Sleep at school, study at the hagwon." practice is still very much alive, tolerated and speaks volumes about Korea's education culture.

Demartino claims Korea's English proficiency is good enough and I agree with him, not every Korean needs to be fluent or even proficient. I'm usually able to find someone with reasonable English when necessary and with my modest Korean ability, communication isn't that bad.
What I think he fails to recognise is that the basic conversational (at best) English the bank teller has came at the cost of thousands of hours of gruelling study and thousands of dollars of hagwon fees.
The cost Koreans are paying for a basic level of English is astronomical and THAT is the result of a poorly constructed education system.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: 745sticky on March 17, 2021, 11:13:35 am
This is oftentimes true, but it's not necessarily because the hagwon is offering a better educational experience. It's because, unlike public schools, the parents are shelling out hard-earned money to send their kids there and they make their kids all too aware of the fact.
This is probably true, I mean I could be wrong but I get the idea that hagwon English classes probably aren't a huge step above public school ones. Maybe at the super good ones or something, but I've read enough hagwon blacklist to know there are at least some shitty ones too. I wonder what the ratio of good/average/shitty hagwons is (cant judge personally with my sample size)
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Kyndo on March 17, 2021, 12:03:38 pm
I'm guessing it falls into a pretty standard bell curve. If I had to pin numbers on it, I'd probably go with 10% being absolute trash, 40% being less than adequate, 40% being more than adequate, and 10% being stellar. All this from an educational stand-point, of course. Those numbers are probably a fair bit different when looking at it from an employee stand-point (although there's probably a good over lap between the two)!

I have friends who own a hagwon, and they've managed to turn it into something to be really proud of. I visit there occasionally and chat with the kiddos, and by the end of their first year, the improvements are pretty incredible.

The secret to their particular success is that they resisted the urge to expand. They are both the owners and the sole teachers (there's also the standard hagwon bus driver and part-time receptionist). Because they didn't expand even when their student numbers rose, they usually have a fair waiting list, which means they can screen the students who come in (and the parents of those students). They do their best to only accept kids who will fit in personality-wise. It makes a pretty huge difference. The kids all seem to be good friends with one another, and most seem genuinely happy to be there.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: hangook77 on March 17, 2021, 01:16:41 pm
If Koreans can speak English well, you can thank hagwons. Public schools in Korea accomplish nothing. If a Korean kid does well in a public school English class it's because he/she attends a hagwon. No, it's not because you're a super special amazing public school teacher with super special amazing students. I used to hear this all the time from NETs who lived in big cities where all their students obviously went to endless hagwons. Public school NETs are just zoo animals paid a handsome salary to keep quiet.

Same out in the provinces are paid okay.  SOme in the cities are still paid low.  (I'm only posting this to trigger a
If Koreans can speak English well, you can thank hagwons. Public schools in Korea accomplish nothing. If a Korean kid does well in a public school English class it's because he/she attends a hagwon. No, it's not because you're a super special amazing public school teacher with super special amazing students. I used to hear this all the time from NETs who lived in big cities where all their students obviously went to endless hagwons. Public school NETs are just zoo animals paid a handsome salary to keep quiet.

If you speak basic Korean and can get the Korean teacher to drill them a bit and give the occasional word test to get them to memorize vocabulary when they are young, you may be able to boost their English in a rural area and or a poorer city neighborhood.  Especially the grade 3s and 4s and even do some light chatting with the gr 1s and 2s at lunch time.  But you have to know some Korean.  Say some expressions in English and in Korean.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on March 17, 2021, 01:42:44 pm
What I think he fails to recognise is that the basic conversational (at best) English the bank teller has came at the cost of thousands of hours of gruelling study and thousands of dollars of hagwon fees.
The cost Koreans are paying for a basic level of English is astronomical and THAT is the result of a poorly constructed education system.
First off, in order to get good at something, you have to work at it. Is there some mystical teaching at public schools back home that is churning out fluent speakers after only a couple hundred hours of classtime? Two hours classroom time is not enough to learn a language. You need regular exposure and experience. Unless you are gifted, you have to work hard and practice to get good.

And guess what, at anything like the wage you yourself are demanding, that study time will cost...thousands of dollars. It wouldn't cost thousands of dollars if you didn't demand such a high wage. If you want public schools to dramatically boost the quality of their English teachers at every school location, that has to be paid for- in taxes. And you need that time. You simply aren't going to get it from a single public school native speaker that has a max number of classroom hours and 25+ kids per class.

Second, your assumption that this bank teller did indeed spend thousands of hours of grueling study assumes facts not in evidence. For starters, one look at my kids, through all levels, says that they're putting lots of grueling hours into Roblox, League of Legends, Instagram, and Youtube.

Sorry, I just don't see enough support for your conclusion. As long as its still within the basic framework of public education revolving around sending kids to a central location, giving them a set curriculum, and giving them a classroom experience, I just don't see any tweaks that would produce anything more than incremental improvement. Not with competing interest and budge requests from other subjects and not with a free-market solution out there. I mean, if you were going to REALLY overhaul the education system, that would require taking on the teachers unions, spending billions of dollars, and RADICALLY altering things and if you fail, the results would likely be disastrous. Not to mention all the legal issues that public schools have to deal with in terms of equal opportunity and whatnot.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: hangook77 on March 17, 2021, 02:08:45 pm
First off, in order to get good at something, you have to work at it. Is there some mystical teaching at public schools back home that is churning out fluent speakers after only a couple hundred hours of classtime? Two hours classroom time is not enough to learn a language. You need regular exposure and experience. Unless you are gifted, you have to work hard and practice to get good.

And guess what, at anything like the wage you yourself are demanding, that study time will cost...thousands of dollars. It wouldn't cost thousands of dollars if you didn't demand such a high wage. If you want public schools to dramatically boost the quality of their English teachers at every school location, that has to be paid for- in taxes. And you need that time. You simply aren't going to get it from a single public school native speaker that has a max number of classroom hours and 25+ kids per class.

Second, your assumption that this bank teller did indeed spend thousands of hours of grueling study assumes facts not in evidence. For starters, one look at my kids, through all levels, says that they're putting lots of grueling hours into Roblox, League of Legends, Instagram, and Youtube.

Sorry, I just don't see enough support for your conclusion. As long as its still within the basic framework of public education revolving around sending kids to a central location, giving them a set curriculum, and giving them a classroom experience, I just don't see any tweaks that would produce anything more than incremental improvement. Not with competing interest and budge requests from other subjects and not with a free-market solution out there. I mean, if you were going to REALLY overhaul the education system, that would require taking on the teachers unions, spending billions of dollars, and RADICALLY altering things and if you fail, the results would likely be disastrous. Not to mention all the legal issues that public schools have to deal with in terms of equal opportunity and whatnot.

I know a couple of South African families who \dropped the toddlers off into Korean kindergarten and within several month were speaking fluent Korean.  No study necessary.  You'd be surprised how many fluent people actually learned the language young when they never had to memorize or study for it. 
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on March 17, 2021, 02:14:01 pm
I know a couple of South African families who \dropped the toddlers off into Korean kindergarten and within several month were speaking fluent Korean.  No study necessary.  You'd be surprised how many fluent people actually learned the language young when they never had to memorize or study for it. 
How many hours were they speaking Korean? And how many thousands of dollars did they pay?

If you drop Korean kids off in English kindergartens, in say, America, yes they'll come out speaking fluently. It's because of immersion and early-age exposure when kids are incredibly adept at learning languages. Not because of "study or no study."

If you want immersion in English in Korea, you'll have to pay for it.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Aristocrat on March 17, 2021, 02:16:35 pm
First off, in order to get good at something, you have to work at it. Is there some mystical teaching at public schools back home that is churning out fluent speakers after only a couple hundred hours of classtime? Two hours classroom time is not enough to learn a language. You need regular exposure and experience. Unless you are gifted, you have to work hard and practice to get good.

I was/am shit at Afrikaans. I never spoke it at home or with my friends, my Afrikaans scores in HS were bellow average, but, I'd say my Afrikaans is on par if not better than the English level of any CT I've ever had and some of them majored in English at university. I was not an exceptional case. Go to other 3rd world countries, you'll meet adults and children with nowhere near the same level of formal Education speaking English as a foreign language who'd seriously give these CTs a run for their money.

There are NETs who've studied Korean at a fraction of the cost and time that Koreans spend on English and they've far surpassed their English level.
I don't know if you're a licensed teacher, but I'm in the final process of getting my license and you've spent a small amount of time studying classical and contemporary curriculums and approaches to teaching English (as a FAL or FL) you'd understand the shortcomings in Korea's educational policies. If you're willing to accept that Korea's approach to teaching English FL is correct then I could pull out a few dozen academic articles and journals telling you why you're very wrong.

You're telling me a well structured educational process is when, after a hundred hours of instruction (not practice), someone still hasn't learned the alphabet?
Sorry, I have no clue what you're on about.

And guess what, at anything like the wage you yourself are demanding, that study time will cost...thousands of dollars. It wouldn't cost thousands of dollars if you didn't demand such a high wage. If you want public schools to dramatically boost the quality of their English teachers at every school location, that has to be paid for- in taxes. And you need that time. You simply aren't going to get it from a single public school native speaker that has a max number of classroom hours and 25+ kids per class.

I said an overhaul in the education system. I'm not against scrapping English as a compulsory subject and only hiring qualified NETs (paid accordingly) and reserving them for schools were English is offered. There's really no reason to send a NET to work at some decrepit myeon in the middle of nowhere. You can't argue that Korea doesn't have this already, there are plenty of schools offering subjects and sports that other schools don't; the middle school I teach at offers Japanese. Other middle schools do not, I don't see anyone protesting.

I can't respond to your other paragraphs because I really don't understand what you're trying to say.
[/quote]
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on March 17, 2021, 02:33:48 pm
I was/am shit at Afrikaans. I never spoke it at home or with my friends, my Afrikaans scores in HS were bellow average, but, I'd say my Afrikaans is on par if not better than the English level of any CT I've ever had and some of them majored in English at university. I was not an exceptional case.
Given that Afrikaans is a NATIVE LANGUAGE from where you hail, that's really not an appropriate comparison.

Quote
Go to other 3rd world countries, you'll meet adults and children with nowhere near the same level of formal Education speaking English as a foreign language who'd seriously give these CTs a run for their money.
Same with taxi drivers or that random guy at the mart here. It all depends on the situation. Those kids also aren't learning formal English for university and academic terminology. Also, that's confirmation bias. How many other adults and children do you meet that have ZERO level of English? Of course you as a foreigner are going to attract people in 3rd world countries who can speak good English. You think it's coincidence that you just happened to run into each other?

Quote
There are NETs who've studied Korean at a fraction of the cost and time that Koreans spend on English and they've far surpassed their English level.
It's called immersion. They are studying and practicing EVERYWHERE THEY GO.

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You're telling me a well structured educational process is when, after a hundred hours of instruction (not practice), someone still hasn't learned the alphabet?
It's called the dumb kid in class. You're using that kid as an example. Why not the other 25 kids in class who do know the alphabet?

Again, this is about policy. You can have a great curriculum or idea, but if it's not logistically or economically feasible, then it doesn't count for shit. There's no program in the world that is going to churn out fluent speakers with 2 hours of classtime per week. With public education you are still going to get a bunch of kids who just don't have the aptitude or interest to do well at foreign languages.

If it really was as simple as you suggest, then NETs who can speak a 2nd language fluently would be the norm, not the exception. That clearly isn't the case. I think you are WAY overestimating the effectiveness of education back home and seriously underestimating it here. Sorry, but I don't really see that massive gap in capability and intellect that you purport.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: tylerthegloob on March 17, 2021, 02:50:31 pm
i think its mostly about motivation. obviously the curriculum could use some modernizing (i don't think anyone would disagree). but i think we all know that no matter what is going on in the classroom, there will be some kids who, no matter what we do, have no interest in learning english (which is fine!). i do think its strange to not include english at a younger age, assuming korea is really trying to make english a whole "thing". but im not very knowledgeable about  what the literature says about that
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: MayorHaggar on March 17, 2021, 04:27:46 pm

This is oftentimes true, but it's not necessarily because the hagwon is offering a better educational experience.

Trust me, hagwons aren't doing anything special. However, it is at least 1 extra hour per day, 3 to 5 days a week of English with a NET. In public elementary school most kids get 1 hour a week of English with a NET. This extra teaching adds up.

Another thing is that hagwon classes are smaller. In my hagwon classes I had 10 kids max. When I taught public school it was 25 to 30 kids in each class.

Also from my experience, hagwon teaching books tend to be the same kind of ESL books used in the US. They're written by native English speakers and come straight from McGraw Hill or whatever. So hagwon kids are learning natural English at a higher level. Meanwhile public school books are all low-level, and are all weird unnatural English like "do you know Jeju-do" and "nice to meet you, I have diarrhea" because they're written by Koreans.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on March 17, 2021, 04:56:06 pm
i think its mostly about motivation. obviously the curriculum could use some modernizing (i don't think anyone would disagree). but i think we all know that no matter what is going on in the classroom, there will be some kids who, no matter what we do, have no interest in learning english (which is fine!). i do think its strange to not include english at a younger age, assuming korea is really trying to make english a whole "thing". but im not very knowledgeable about  what the literature says about that
Yup. You get motivated kids, you get positive outcomes. You get unmotivated kids, doesn't matter if the material is gold and the teacher is great.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Aristocrat on March 17, 2021, 05:27:35 pm
Given that Afrikaans is a NATIVE LANGUAGE from where you hail, that's really not an appropriate comparison.

Please, don't throw opinions around unless you have some kind of foundation for your argument. You've been to South Africa? I'm assuming no. Do you speak Afrikaans? No. Are you aware of the cultural, geographical and historical factors that explain why some South Africans speak Afrikaans well and some don't? No. I didn't grow up speaking Afrikaans (save some choice curse words), I wasn't raised around Afrikaans speakers and I didn't use it unless I was in Afrikaans class trying to pass off whatever BS mondeling I just thought up. Don't be so confident in your opinion about the dynamics of language learning in South Africa when it's based off 10sec of wikipedia research.

Korean kids were probably exposed to more English by watching Marvel movies than the amount of Afrikaans I was exposed to while growing up.

[quote author=Mr.DeMartino link=topic=121510.msg854016#msg854016 date=1615962828
If it really was as simple as you suggest, then NETs who can speak a 2nd language fluently would be the norm,
[/quote]

Anyone here go to private academies after school to study Spanish, French, Afrikaans, Zulu, Xhosa or any of the other official languages from your country, yet you still can't maintain a basic conversation? Please raise your hand.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on March 17, 2021, 06:08:36 pm
Please, don't throw opinions around unless you have some kind of foundation for your argument. You've been to South Africa? I'm assuming no. Do you speak Afrikaans? No. Are you aware of the cultural, geographical and historical factors that explain why some South Africans speak Afrikaans well and some don't? No. I didn't grow up speaking Afrikaans (save some choice curse words), I wasn't raised around Afrikaans speakers and I didn't use it unless I was in Afrikaans class trying to pass off whatever BS mondeling I just thought up. Don't be so confident in your opinion about the dynamics of language learning in South Africa when it's based off 10sec of wikipedia research.

Korean kids were probably exposed to more English by watching Marvel movies than the amount of Afrikaans I was exposed to while growing up.
Given the number of Saffers here who at least get some Afrikaans out, lets just say it's a bit more than English here.

Quote
Anyone here go to private academies after school to study Spanish, French, Afrikaans, Zulu, Xhosa or any of the other official languages from your country, yet you still can't maintain a basic conversation? Please raise your hand.
Anyone here go to any kind of academic academy?

A lot of us have taken public school foreign languages. And lets just say NETs fluent or even conversational in a 2nd language are relatively rare. Most of us have really inept levels in that language.

And yes, some kids are going to take private lessons at something and still suck at it. That's called kids being kids.

Things are pretty fine. Plenty of English abounds and it seems to have sorted itself out in the ratios you'd expect.
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Kyndo on March 18, 2021, 07:31:09 am
Given the number of Saffers here who at least get some Afrikaans out, lets just say it's a bit more than English here.
Anyone here go to any kind of academic academy?

I'll preface by saying that I'm not South African, nor have I ever been there. However, I have a number of South African friends, can speak some Afrikaans, and know a bit more about the country than the average person who isn't  from it. (And apologies to any saffers who feel I'm out of place typing on their behalf.)

    From what I understand, the *many* languages spoken there are very region specific, and also very demographic specific. If you do not come from an area where Afrikaans is the majority language, or if you belong to the wrong racial/socio-economic group, Afrikaans definitely would be a second language, and exposure could be very minimal (for the current generation, at least. Things were different back during the Apartheid period). Unlike English in Korea, I don't think that Afrikaans has pervasively infiltrated the commercial and cultural background of the entire country.
   Point is, unless you're an Afrikaaner, or come from an area where every speaks it, then theres a fair chance you won't know a whole lot of it.
   Also, I think that the reason so many S.A.ners seem to speak it is because Afrikaaners tend to be a wealthier, more educated demographic, and would have more chances to take advantage of the opportunity to teach abroad.


A lot of us have taken public school foreign languages. And lets just say NETs fluent or even conversational in a 2nd language are relatively rare. Most of us have really inept levels in that language.

Not quite disagreeing with you here, but I think that the percentage of NETs who are conversational in a second language is going to be significantly higher than that percentage back in their home country. One of the reasons many people choose to teach in an other country is that they are interested in foreign cultures/languages etc, and have some facility therein.
 Might actually be an interesting poll question: "How many languages can you communicate in?"
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Aristocrat on March 18, 2021, 10:26:05 am
I'll preface by saying that I'm not South African, nor have I ever been there. However, I have a number of South African friends, can speak some Afrikaans, and know a bit more about the country than the average person who isn't  from it. (And apologies to any saffers who feel I'm out of place typing on their behalf.)


No worries.

Afrikaans exposure is going to depend on your demographic, your culture, where you live and also your generation.

Very oversimplified, in Cape Town, it's a language of whites (not all whites share the same culture) of Afrikaaner descent and coloureds (mixed race) of the Northern suburbs and Cape flats. However, it's more a language of the older generation and not necessarily an indication of wealth. It also depends greatly on what school you went to.

I didn't grow up speaking Afrikaans because I went to what's called "former Model-C and private schools". My classmates were either rich white (of English descent), coloured, Indian or black kids. Afrikaans was never spoken unless we were swearing. I'm also a millennial and was exposed to very little Afrikaans. Go to the northern suburbs or the poorer areas and it becomes a different story.

Martin bases his opinion on the South Africans he's met here however, most South Africans in Korea are white and therefore, more likely of Afrikaaner descent. The reason most white South Africans come here is quite simple, people of means are the ones who generally have a tertiary level of education.

Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: hangook77 on March 18, 2021, 10:39:06 am
This is somewhat overstated, but I'll just amend it from "attends a hagwon" to "spends two years in an immersion program in New Zealand or southern California".
 
Also, public school teachers are not "zoo animals", more like "zookeepers" or Steve Irwin-style showmen, and we're not "paid a handsome salary" we're paid what used to be a handsome salary eaten away by inflation--just today, my favored breakfast pastry jumped up by 200 W.  I haven't had a raise in 8 years.

And I am under no illusion that even if I were God's gift to teaching, I could transform English learning by my students.  My aim in elementary school is to have them develop a positive attitude to English and instill positive habits of language learning. 

Elements like scaffolding sentences, spelling and sentence syntax with scramble and other puzzles which challenge their natural desires (concentration aka matching. rebuses, hidden pictures, vanishing pictures, etc), fun concepts like conversation with favorite characters--anytime Pororo or Pikachu or Harry Potter comes along, there is an uptick in interest.   The fact that there are a billion bomb games here makes me think they're overused, but a bit of competition has its place, a few times a semester--but please make sure the whole class repeats the question and the answer ...

My co-teachers definitely help during appropriate activities, but actually appreciate the chance to sit at the back and mark their homework notebooks as I lead the activities.  We had 4th grade for the third time today, and they remind me of the last two sixth grades, they were sooo enthusiastic--I commented to my Co that I hoped they would still feel that way when they went on.  She was in agreement.

So, at the elementary level, I don't think it's about actual acquisition as much as it is about attitude.  And we as NETs can definitely help or even make a big difference in that regard. 

Well if you do a bomb game every class, that's a bit much.  Maybe a chapter review or every other chapter or something.  Should incorporate other different activities and games.  Though writing or speaking activities are the most common due to K teachers wanting you to match the part of the book. 
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on March 18, 2021, 11:21:51 am
Not quite disagreeing with you here, but I think that the percentage of NETs who are conversational in a second language is going to be significantly higher than that percentage back in their home country.
Even if it is higher, the fact is that there aren't hordes of conversational people being churned out by our school systems back home.

Also, I'm willing to be that a fair number of people rating themselves as "conversational" are about the same level as those Koreans who they think aren't that great at English, given what we know about bias. They're probably more likely to overrate their own skills and underrate the skills of people speaking their language.
 
Put simply- There aren't the results in our own countries to support the conclusion that this is down to curriculum.

Martin bases his opinion on the South Africans he's met here however, most South Africans in Korea are white and therefore, more likely of Afrikaaner descent. The reason most white South Africans come here is quite simple, people of means are the ones who generally have a tertiary level of education.
Fair point and accepted. That being said, Afrikaans is a lot more similar to English than English is to Korean. You don't have to learn an entirely new alphabet for starters. There are also going to be words that are somewhat similar.

This is Quora, so I take it with a grain of salt, but if Afrikaans and English are this similar, then yeah, it's really not an appropriate comparison. Like you have sentences that are basically mutually intelligible.
https://www.quora.com/How-similar-is-Afrikaans-to-English
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Kyndo on March 18, 2021, 01:00:45 pm
Even if it is higher, the fact is that there aren't hordes of conversational people being churned out by our school systems back home.
I'd imagine that you're probably right. A lot of these multi-lingual waygooks are probably multi-lingual due to having lived in or immigrated from a non-English country to an English one, or grew up in a non-English majority area in an English speaking country.

Also, I'm willing to be that a fair number of people rating themselves as "conversational" are about the same level as those Koreans who they think aren't that great at English, given what we know about bias. They're probably more likely to overrate their own skills and underrate the skills of people speaking their language.
I think that part of the issue is that many of us NETs use a very different metric to describe their own language abilities than most Koreans do. Most Westerners focus very strongly on communicative skills: for example, when I study Korean, I do so purely to be able to speak. So my focus is on (surprise surprise) grammatically simple sentences that can be used in as many different scenarios as possible. On the other hand, most Koreans have a surprisingly strong grasp of nuanced, complex grammatical structures, and a really astonishing vocab. They just haven't really put in a lot of time to put that into practice, so their conversational skills lag far behind.
 
That being said, Afrikaans is a lot more similar to English than English is to Korean.
Yeah. In fact, Dutch/Afrikaans/Friesian as a group is probably the closest language to English. Interestingly, it's easier for the former to learn the latter than vice versa. Probably because all you Anglos are monolingual dunderfluffs.  :smiley:
Title: Re: How much do teacher's really want an experienced native teacher?
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on March 18, 2021, 02:33:29 pm
I think that part of the issue is that many of us NETs use a very different metric to describe their own language abilities than most Koreans do. Most Westerners focus very strongly on communicative skills: for example, when I study Korean, I do so purely to be able to speak. So my focus is on (surprise surprise) grammatically simple sentences that can be used in as many different scenarios as possible. On the other hand, most Koreans have a surprisingly strong grasp of nuanced, complex grammatical structures, and a really astonishing vocab. They just haven't really put in a lot of time to put that into practice, so their conversational skills lag far behind.
While that's definitely a thing, I was referring more to people who refer to their abilities as conversational, who are speaking the equivalent in Spanish of "Hello, I'm fine thank you. I had a funny time at a shopping mall with us." and declare themselves to be conversational while a Korean saying that in English is deemed "can barely speak". I think an objective assessment might yield a different result.