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All about South Korea => Life in Korea => Topic started by: KimchiNinja on February 20, 2021, 08:34:17 am

Title: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: KimchiNinja on February 20, 2021, 08:34:17 am
One thing that would really help foreigners in Korea, especially ones wanting to fit in long term and prosper without running into the same cultural-difference problems over and over, would be to study Confucianism.

The best way to do this is by simply reading the original source material—the 2500 year old Confucian Classics—competent translations of the Analects, Book of Mencius, Doctrine of the Mean, and The Great Learning. In particular Mencius is quite important to the Neo-Confucianism that King Sejeong implemented (Yulgok, who came later, was probably the greatest Korean Confucian scholar).

Reading Mencius is eerie, a thousands of years old text exactly describing the behavior and values of modern Koreans. What we see in Korea is the Confucian value of education, the perfectibility of oneself and children thru work, sincerity, tranquility, social harmony subordinating the individual’s selfish interests, the five relations and social hierarchy, shame is a virtue, etc. It’s all right there in the ancient texts.

The core concept is that thru 礼 (li; ritual), a natural process takes place which brings about 仁 (ren; benevolence). Ritual is not just going to ancestors graves, but daily linguistic rituals of 요 conjugation, bowing, and more. Koreans themselves don’t really study the classics in great detail, and rarely talk about this stuff. They just practice the rites, and intuitively “get it” as it’s so deeply part of their culture and upbringing.

I don’t see how a person can ever truly understand Korea without understanding Ruism. And being as how we’re living in the most Confucian place on the planet, it’s a great opportunity to study this moral philosophy in real life. Studying Korean language is great, but it's very one dimensional without understanding what's culturally happening around you.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on February 20, 2021, 09:32:54 am
7/10 Billy Goats Gruff.

Nice stealth operation, but not enough there to really get people going.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: Aristocrat on February 20, 2021, 10:46:38 am
I wouldn't blanket all foreigners to go through the trouble of actually studying Confucianism. Yes, many folks take interest in these things, but with a day being only 24hrs long, I've got to be selective with my time and I'm not going to
study something unless I can apply it in a practical way to my life.

I know enough about Confucianism to know that in 2021 it's become an archaic and impractical cultural obstacle. I'm really not going to devote my time just so I can explain why I dislike something in greater detail.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: MayorHaggar on February 20, 2021, 07:52:37 pm
Blaming everything in Korea on confucianism is dumb yet everyone does it for their first few years of living in Korea.

Korea has been a poor and isolated agricultural country for most of its history, and this explains a lot about its culture. Famine and natural disaster have always been a part of living in Eastern Asia, and it's maybe why Koreans (and the Chinese and Japanese) are obsessive about food and taking care of people in their social group.

 South Korea really only started to get out of its isolationist agricultural roots after the 1988 Olympics. You can't change an entire culture in 30 years.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: MayorHaggar on February 20, 2021, 07:53:08 pm
Also isn't kimchininja a notorious troll from Dave's?
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: KimchiNinja on February 20, 2021, 10:42:34 pm
And right on time, we have a bunch of hostile posts from people who are ignorant on the topic.

You could simply not respond to the thread and remain ignorant in silence.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: confusedsafferinkorea on February 21, 2021, 08:35:14 am
And right on time, we have a bunch of hostile posts from people who are ignorant on the topic.

You could simply not respond to the thread and remain ignorant in silence.

Who is the ignorant one? You, methinks. You claim to represent all East Asians with your b/s arguments. I told you of my experiences in China and Taiwan where they are NOT what you claim. I only experienced rudeness in Korea, not any other country that I have lived in, in Asia. Taiwan, China and the Philippines, they are polite and OFTEN come up to you and offer assistance  or just a friendly word.

I hike a lot in Taiwan and without fail every time someone will ask me, where are you from, where do you live in Taiwan, how long have you been here, where are you from, where do you teach and so on. From encounters like this I have made many new friends even been invited to their house for a meal upon the first meeting. Just awesome to live like this. They always end off by saying 'Welcome to Taiwan'. Never had that experience in Korea, in fact this was the feeling I got after 6 and a half years there aside from a few people, 'Welcome to Korea, now go back'.

So if you think it's weird for people to be friendly to strangers, better not come to Taiwan or the Philippines, you will be horrified at how warm people can be without being weird about it.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on February 21, 2021, 10:29:07 am
And right on time, we have a bunch of hostile posts from people who are ignorant on the topic.

You could simply not respond to the thread and remain ignorant in silence.
It's not ignorant to point out your post was a stealth troll job.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: T_Rex on February 21, 2021, 11:35:55 am
From Dave's:

"KimchiNinja/zackback is a troll who posts stuff to get a reaction out of people. Just posting the truth."
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: SPQR on February 21, 2021, 11:52:49 am
One thing that would really help foreigners in Korea, especially ones wanting to fit in long term and prosper without running into the same cultural-difference problems over and over, would be to study Confucianism.

The best way to do this is by simply reading the original source material—the 2500 year old Confucian Classics—competent translations of the Analects, Book of Mencius, Doctrine of the Mean, and The Great Learning. In particular Mencius is quite important to the Neo-Confucianism that King Sejeong implemented (Yulgok, who came later, was probably the greatest Korean Confucian scholar).

Reading Mencius is eerie, a thousands of years old text exactly describing the behavior and values of modern Koreans. What we see in Korea is the Confucian value of education, the perfectibility of oneself and children thru work, sincerity, tranquility, social harmony subordinating the individual’s selfish interests, the five relations and social hierarchy, shame is a virtue, etc. It’s all right there in the ancient texts.

The core concept is that thru 礼 (li; ritual), a natural process takes place which brings about 仁 (ren; benevolence). Ritual is not just going to ancestors graves, but daily linguistic rituals of 요 conjugation, bowing, and more. Koreans themselves don’t really study the classics in great detail, and rarely talk about this stuff. They just practice the rites, and intuitively “get it” as it’s so deeply part of their culture and upbringing.

I don’t see how a person can ever truly understand Korea without understanding Ruism. And being as how we’re living in the most Confucian place on the planet, it’s a great opportunity to study this moral philosophy in real life. Studying Korean language is great, but it's very one dimensional without understanding what's culturally happening around you.

Confucianism is a philosophy for peasants and serfs. It has ceased to
be relevant in a modern, industrialized democracy.  Therefore reading these
"sacred texts" would be a fantastically boring waste of time.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: chimp on February 21, 2021, 02:18:54 pm
I get you, KimchlolNinjer. You're reaching expecting this lot to read books that aren't (at best) middle-brow. We've already got some guy with a Romanesque name (what a champ! Check out his posts on apartment prices!) deriding confucianism as being for peasants and serfs (hi Christianity!)

There's a predictable old bore going on about Taiwan and the Philippines being friendly too (what? No tirade against the SeeSeePee today? Ah no wait, just saw the other thread)

Just accepting this place and going with the flow/getting to know some literature that had some influence on the place is terribly boring and 19th century.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: confusedsafferinkorea on February 21, 2021, 02:30:37 pm
I get you, KimchlolNinjer. You're reaching expecting this lot to read books that aren't (at best) middle-brow. We've already got some guy with a Romanesque name (what a champ! Check out his posts on apartment prices!) deriding confucianism as being for peasants and serfs (hi Christianity!)

There's a predictable old bore going on about Taiwan and the Philippines being friendly too (what? No tirade against the SeeSeePee today? Ah no wait, just saw the other thread)


Just accepting this place and going with the flow/getting to know some literature that had some influence on the place is terribly boring and 19th century.

Oh no, now there are two of them.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: SPQR on February 21, 2021, 04:26:43 pm
I get you, KimchlolNinjer. You're reaching expecting this lot to read books that aren't (at best) middle-brow. We've already got some guy with a Romanesque name (what a champ! Check out his posts on apartment prices!) deriding confucianism as being for peasants and serfs (hi Christianity!)

There's a predictable old bore going on about Taiwan and the Philippines being friendly too (what? No tirade against the SeeSeePee today? Ah no wait, just saw the other thread)

Just accepting this place and going with the flow/getting to know some literature that had some influence on the place is terribly boring and 19th century.

Romanesque is a form of architecture. It is not suitable for names. Only
truly ignorant people would make this mistake.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: KimchiNinja on February 21, 2021, 04:46:02 pm
You're reaching expecting this lot to read books that aren't (at best) middle-brow.

Every couple years I log onto these places to see if they have accumulated any interesting foreigners, i.e. people who aren’t bigoted Anglosphere supremacists. I mean, statistically, you’d think that out of 200K there would be a few. Shrug.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on February 21, 2021, 06:39:35 pm
Every couple years I log onto these places to see if they have accumulated any interesting foreigners, i.e. people who aren’t bigoted Anglosphere supremacists. I mean, statistically, you’d think that out of 200K there would be a few. Shrug.
Methinks you log on here more regularly under a different name.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: tylerthegloob on February 22, 2021, 07:54:15 am
similarly, the best way to understand north korea is to simply read "on the juche idea" !
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: 745sticky on February 22, 2021, 08:15:00 am
Just got back from break and I'm glad to see we're already going strong with another banger
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: KimchiNinja on February 22, 2021, 08:28:31 am
To stick to the topic, in spite of trolls...

The “stealth” imbedding of Confucianism within K-dramas is quite amusing to me. Of course it’s not stealth at all, it’s right there front and center in every show. But because Westerners don’t know about Confucianism, they aren’t aware this is what they are consuming.

Take your average girl in the West who’s obsessed with these shows. She likely has quite liberal Western views. But now she’s witnessing something very different from her home culture, and finds that ‘mysterious something’ attractive. The punchline is that she is binging on East Asian conservatism. Turns out that the social rites can be made quite sexy and attractive, along with prioritizing your family, respecting elders, studying hard, improving your looks, etc...but it’s really the resultant ren (empathy, kindness, benevolence) which hits the heart and is the hook of every episode.

I just find it funny that the Western cultural evangelicals have never said “OMG, Korea is exporting Confucianism!,” when obviously they are (knowingly or not). This is far more effective than Confucius Institutes—if one doesn’t know the philosophy, as Westerners do not, they logically can not know it is imbedded in the media they are consuming.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: tylerthegloob on February 22, 2021, 09:05:51 am
that's because the confucius institutes are funded by china and, as you soooooo astutely pointed out, korea is more confucian than china. perhaps more obvious is the fact that confucius institutes have little to do with confucianism. after all, china really puts the "soft" in "soft power"

anyway i'd love for you to explain the dynamic between korean feminism and confucianism to me:)
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on February 22, 2021, 09:29:13 am
Take your average girl in the West who’s obsessed with these shows. She likely has quite liberal Western views. But now she’s witnessing something very different from her home culture, and finds that ‘mysterious something’ attractive. The punchline is that she is binging on East Asian conservatism. Turns out that the social rites can be made quite sexy and attractive, along with prioritizing your family, respecting elders, studying hard, improving your looks, etc...but it’s really the resultant ren (empathy, kindness, benevolence) which hits the heart and is the hook of every episode.
Everything you said pretty much applies to a Jane Austen novel. They're liked because it's new and different and idealized. Just like a lot of other entertainment.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: stoat on February 22, 2021, 09:39:13 am
Everything you said pretty much applies to a Jane Austen novel. They're liked because it's new and different and idealized. Just like a lot of other entertainment.

Jane Austin novels are new?
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: 745sticky on February 22, 2021, 09:58:21 am
Jane Austen novels are liked?
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: Chinguetti on February 22, 2021, 10:06:16 am
I know people who made bank re-writing Jane Austen novels as parodies, that's how popular they are.

And that's how Pride and Prejudice and Zombies became such a hit (which was hilarious, btw -- the movie was a crapshoot, though).
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: stoat on February 22, 2021, 10:38:11 am
It's no coincidence Bridgerton is set in the same period as Austen's novels
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on February 22, 2021, 12:50:37 pm
Jane Austin novels are new?
The world they are in is new to the reader.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: stoat on February 22, 2021, 12:56:50 pm
The world they are in is new to the reader.

Parts of it are sure, but Austen's popularity is probably also based on the universality and timeless nature of the message - woman wants to snag a rich, handsome husband
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: starryella on February 22, 2021, 12:59:19 pm
Parts of it are sure, but Austen's popularity is probably also based on the universality and timeless nature of the message - woman wants to snag a rich, handsome husband

Emma is in fact about a woman who does NOT want to snag a rich, handsome husband.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: stoat on February 22, 2021, 01:03:19 pm
Probably why it's not as popular  :laugh:
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: starryella on February 22, 2021, 01:04:22 pm
Such a shame as Emma is my favorite book by Austen, much more original and interesting than Pride and Prejudice.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: KimchiNinja on February 22, 2021, 06:39:49 pm
Everything you said pretty much applies to a Jane Austen novel.

Since I spend my time reading the classics, which have influenced the behavior of billions of people across thousands of years, I don’t even know this “Jane Austin” of which you all speak. It’s all about opportunity cost.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: L I on February 22, 2021, 06:51:58 pm
She’s on the £10 note, (On the back. Queen Elizabeth is on the front.)
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: confusedsafferinkorea on February 23, 2021, 05:58:51 am
Since I spend my time reading the classics, which have influenced the behavior of billions of people across thousands of years, I don’t even know this “Jane Austin” of which you all speak. It’s all about opportunity cost.

Terrible to be so ignorant. You accuse us of being ignorant . Pot, kettle, black.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: KimchiNinja on February 23, 2021, 07:02:41 am
Terrible to be so ignorant. You accuse us of being ignorant .

See relevancy; I’m not living in the West/UK.

To get back on topic, again, we can use this very tangent of the trolls...

In choosing where to invest our reading, it helps to realize there are “thought lineages.” Take some contemporary Western romance author; where did she get her ideas, where did that person in-turn get their ideas? Trace the ideas to their roots. It’s a tree, much like biological evolution, and you can go back to the common ancestor—the roots of Western thought. Or in the case of East Asia a parallel thought lineage with different starting assumptions (in China). So, if one hasn’t read and grasped Aristotle and the Bible first (the roots), it’s just playing around Jane Austen (the leaves) without understanding where they came from. Things have beginnings; Laozi told us that. And beginnings determine trajectories, thus they tell us both the past and probable futures.

It’s all about opportunity cost and there’s an element of strategic ignorance. A person can live in East Asia for years yet remain ignorant on the roots of thought here, nothing is stopping them as we can see from the responses on this thread (“I know nothing about it, but know it doesn’t interest me”). Most people do that, including those born here—although actually the locals study ancient Chinese characters in junior high, and learn some academically about 유교 (because Ruism values education). However there are advantages to deeper knowledge; few read the source texts of their society, just like in the West. Relevant rare knowledge has more value than common irrelevant knowledge.

The other asset of reading the Chinese classics is that it gives a person a way to get out of their bubble (their born into “thought lineage”), unlike reading Jane Austen which is in the bubble. You don’t actually know you’re in a bubble, or the outer shape/color of that object, until you get outside of it. How could you? From outside, with perspective, suddenly you can look back at Western thought and be like “ahhh, it’s a thing.” And it’s just one thing, not the whole world like it arrogantly claims. I don’t see how anyone can ever truly understand the West, without understanding Eastern (or other) thought.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: stoat on February 23, 2021, 07:40:57 am
Yes, just finished 'Dominion' by Tom Holland.  It's a long read but gives Westerners a good insight into their heritage. There are probably similar books about Asian culture people can read without having to plough through the original texts.

https://www.amazon.com/Dominion-Christian-Revolution-Remade-World/dp/0465093507

Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: tylerthegloob on February 23, 2021, 07:54:02 am
so did the tree try to cut off its own branch or how's that mesh with your metaphor? or maybe there was no criticize confucius campaign? or maybe marx was chinese? or maybe i don't know anything because western propaganda got me all confused, maannnnn

anyway since kimchininja likes the classics so much, here's a link to the analects

https://antilogicalism.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/the-analects.pdf  edit: in general you can find lots of great stuff here! check it out :)

can't say reading it has changed my life as much as aristotle or laozi (who is actually interesting) but maybe the analects will open your third eye about korea or whatever
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: 745sticky on February 23, 2021, 08:22:55 am
Since I spend my time reading the classics, which have influenced the behavior of billions of people across thousands of years, I don’t even know this “Jane Austin” of which you all speak. It’s all about opportunity cost.

lol
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: stoat on February 23, 2021, 08:27:19 am
Quote
   
can't say reading it has changed my life as much as aristotle or laozi (who is actually interesting) but maybe the analects will open your third eye about korea or whatever   

I'm guessing you have to learn Chinese first and read it in its original form before you properly comment on its efficacy
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on February 23, 2021, 11:16:02 am
Probably why it's not as popular  :laugh:
Is it?

Persuasion was my favorite.
Since I spend my time reading the classics, which have influenced the behavior of billions of people across thousands of years, I don’t even know this “Jane Austin” of which you all speak. It’s all about opportunity cost.
9/10 Billy Goats Gruff. That was some 3-Year Letterman type shit right there.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on February 23, 2021, 11:22:56 am
The other asset of reading the Chinese classics is that it gives a person a way to get out of their bubble (their born into “thought lineage”), unlike reading Jane Austen which is in the bubble. You don’t actually know you’re in a bubble, or the outer shape/color of that object, until you get outside of it. How could you? From outside, with perspective, suddenly you can look back at Western thought and be like “ahhh, it’s a thing.” And it’s just one thing, not the whole world like it arrogantly claims. I don’t see how anyone can ever truly understand the West, without understanding Eastern (or other) thought.
The world has changed so drastically and become so homogenized that to focus on Confucianism is pointless.

At this point marketing and "How to Get Rich on Youtube" is more relevant to the study of human behavior and customs than Plato or Confucious. People are far far far more alike than different in the 21st century developed world.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: stoat on February 23, 2021, 11:29:32 am
Quote
   from: stoat on Yesterday at 01:03:19 pm
Probably why it's not as popular  :laugh:
Is it     

Pride and Prejudice 17 (movies) V Emma 6 according to Google.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: KimchiNinja on February 23, 2021, 09:08:44 pm
There are probably similar books about Asian culture people can read without having to plough through the original texts.

“A Source Book in Chinese Philosophy” by Wing-Tsit Chan is the best there ever was, and ever will be. He selected the most influential source material from 2K years, did neutral translations, and tied the whole thought lineage together with brief neutral commentary. It’s legendary among all us who study this stuff.


...can't say reading Analects has changed my life as much as aristotle or laozi (who is actually interesting).

This was me; more of a Laozi guy. But there’s some things we have to realize about Confucianism, which might help...

1) Laozi is the roots of the Chinese thought lineage (defines reality as nature), and Confucianism a branch (one real world implementation working with *our* nature), 2) by the time Confucianism catches on in Han Dynasty many of Laozi’s base assumptions are imbedded in it, 3) then 1K years later Neo-Confucianism blends in Taoism and Buddhism, so Taoism is inside Korean Confucianism, 4) Laozi is a brilliant mind and writer and Kongzi is pretty shit and Analects is kinda a mess, 5) Confucianism is not the writings of Kongzi but the sum of many contributors (Mengzi et al) put into practice.

Eventually I realized that the brilliance is the real world implementation in society, not the literary work itself moving us individually intellectually. Kongzi and his cult were grass-roots doers, not a librarian/sage like Laozi.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: KimchiNinja on February 23, 2021, 09:14:52 pm
People are far far far more alike than different in the 21st century developed world.

If true, why can’t Westerners understand China and Korea? Why do foreigners flip out on this forum about the differences?

Because, Confucianism. [checkmate]
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: Aristocrat on February 23, 2021, 10:15:20 pm
If true, why can’t Westerners understand China and Korea? Why do foreigners flip out on this forum about the differences?

Because, Confucianism. [checkmate]

You can understand the reasons why an able-bodied person would park in a disabled parking space; laziness, inconsideration, obliviousness etc.
Does understanding it make it any less frustrating or infuriating? I understand Authoritarianism, that doesn't mean I'll tolerate it.

You'd have a point that we should study Confucius thought... if we were in Korea/China/Japan and we were in the 19th century.

Look around you, Korea, Japan and even China have embraced the Capitalist economic model and, save China, a Democracy and a constitutional monarchy, respectively.
The frustration Westerners AND Asians experiences is the mismatch of balancing a Western political and economic model with a archaic Eastern traditions and culture; it's a boot trying to fit on a hand.

Studying Confucianism is likely going to make most people (Asians and Westerns) understand, in greater detail, what ridiculously stupid match Confucianism and Capitalism/Democracy are.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: KimchiNinja on February 24, 2021, 07:11:41 am
Studying Confucianism is likely going to make most people (Asians and Westerns) understand, in greater detail, what ridiculously stupid match Confucianism and Capitalism/Democracy are.

Exactly yes! I love that you are making my point.

This 300-year period of Anglosphere imperialism is ending. There were aspects of the British and subsequent American empires that worked, which is how it spread, but now it is dysfunctional and will recede (Chinese philosophy tells us this, 天命). America finds itself in steep socioeconomic decline, with their empire losing power just as all empires eventually do and their homeland decaying. The whole barbaric “freedom, democracy, liberalism, corporatism” American model has failed, and the Chinese ancients told us thousands of years ago why it would fail (correct theories have predictive power, thus these texts have now be revalidated for a new age). Of course, since “the Enlightenment” era banned Chinese philosophy they didn’t get the memo.

Meanwhile, China has a fresh restructured model for the new age and is rising (it’s more adapted to the present circumstances of the world). Just as it has done for thousands of years, Confucianism adapts to the times and survives. The Chinese (and Korean) thought lineage is not going away and anyone who thinks so is lost in the Anglo supremacist daydream, well past the expiration date. Turns out 6% of the world’s population don’t know everything, especially those in a country that has only been around for 200 some years. The adults are returning.

Geopolitical shifts are all the more reason why Chinese philosophy is relevant—not only for understanding the future here in the century of Asia, but for understanding why the American model failed.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: tylerthegloob on February 24, 2021, 09:03:39 am
tell me more about china's "fresh restructured model" and how it blends chinese thought (confucianism, allegedly) with western ideas like communism? unless marx was chinese (in which case i really need to speak to my theory of alienation professor)
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: confusedsafferinkorea on February 24, 2021, 10:22:05 am
Meanwhile, China has a fresh restructured model for the new age and is rising (it’s more adapted to the present circumstances of the world)

Spoken like a true CCP troll, 50 cent army style. He talks about Western Propaganda, what a joke. Actually I have come to realise it is pointless to engage with an indoctrinated CCP troll.

I am quite curious to know if he has been to China and if he supports genocide of the Uyghers, forced organ harvesting and the destruction of the Chinese people's rights to freedom.

The people of China don't deserve their so-called government, they deserve the government of Taiwan where you have true democracy , freedom of speech etc. That is my wish for the wonderful average Chinese person.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: tylerthegloob on February 24, 2021, 10:44:31 am
naturally, he's going to deny all of those things or at least justify them. but even if we pretend those issues don't exist, most of us still wouldn't choose the chinese way. and that's a more fundamental problem for what i think his argument is
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: stoat on February 24, 2021, 10:57:45 am
All that kind of language has been used by the left in the US  - putting illegal immigrants in concentration camps, the mass incarceration of black people, their genocide at the hands of cops etc - so its impact has been greatly reduced.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on February 24, 2021, 11:27:17 am
If true, why can’t Westerners understand China and Korea? Why do foreigners flip out on this forum about the differences?

Because, Confucianism. [checkmate]
Or, you know, individually they just suck at adapting. Same as why some Chinese or Koreans can adapt to living in the West and others can't.

Also, there is more than likely a genetic component to adaptation given that there is a genetic basis for someones chances of being liberal or conservative.

You know genetics and science, that "nonsense" you've ignored in favor of some culture claptrap.

You want things that really show difference besides genetics? Try developed world vs. non, rural vs. urban, and occupation.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on February 24, 2021, 11:30:40 am
The frustration Westerners AND Asians experiences is the mismatch of balancing a Western political and economic model with a archaic Eastern traditions and culture; it's a boot trying to fit on a hand.

Studying Confucianism is likely going to make most people (Asians and Westerns) understand, in greater detail, what ridiculously stupid match Confucianism and Capitalism/Democracy are.
This assumes facts not in evidence. No foundation for this statement has been laid, nor any criteria established.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: Aristocrat on February 24, 2021, 01:16:46 pm
Exactly yes! I love that you are making my point.

This 300-year period of Anglosphere imperialism is ending. There were aspects of the British and subsequent American empires that worked, which is how it spread, but now it is dysfunctional and will recede (Chinese philosophy tells us this, 天命). America finds itself in steep socioeconomic decline, with their empire losing power just as all empires eventually do and their homeland decaying. The whole barbaric “freedom, democracy, liberalism, corporatism” American model has failed, and the Chinese ancients told us thousands of years ago why it would fail (correct theories have predictive power, thus these texts have now be revalidated for a new age). Of course, since “the Enlightenment” era banned Chinese philosophy they didn’t get the memo.

Meanwhile, China has a fresh restructured model for the new age and is rising (it’s more adapted to the present circumstances of the world). Just as it has done for thousands of years, Confucianism adapts to the times and survives. The Chinese (and Korean) thought lineage is not going away and anyone who thinks so is lost in the Anglo supremacist daydream, well past the expiration date. Turns out 6% of the world’s population don’t know everything, especially those in a country that has only been around for 200 some years. The adults are returning.

Geopolitical shifts are all the more reason why Chinese philosophy is relevant—not only for understanding the future here in the century of Asia, but for understanding why the American model failed.

The world will adopt China's economic system?
Remind me again, with egg on their face and filled with an inferiority complex, disdain for the West and despite all that Cultural Devolution bullshit what was the economic system that the CCP begrudgingly adopted?
Capitalism. China is Capitalism on steroids.

How about the DPRK? The country with the biggest political short-man syndrome.
Arguably, no country tried harder to make their cute little "Juche" system work. It didn't and like China, the Kims tolerate and indulge in Capitalism.

Capitalism and Democracy aren't perfect, but it's in line with human nature and instinct, which is why every Communist nation eventually finds it's way to them.
Confucianism in practice goes against human nature and evolution.

I don't see hordes of Westerners hiding in ships, containers and using whatever nefarious means possible to emigrate to China and Korea. I can only assume that these illegal Chinese immigrants and asylum seekers
didn't read all the Confucianist literature you read and don't know what they're running from.

You read like a desperate, bitter and sad old man. Get a life, dude.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: leaponover on February 24, 2021, 07:18:07 pm
One thing that would really help foreigners in Korea, especially ones wanting to fit in long term and prosper without running into the same cultural-difference problems over and over, would be to study Confucianism.

The best way to do this is by simply reading the original source material—the 2500 year old Confucian Classics—competent translations of the Analects, Book of Mencius, Doctrine of the Mean, and The Great Learning. In particular Mencius is quite important to the Neo-Confucianism that King Sejeong implemented (Yulgok, who came later, was probably the greatest Korean Confucian scholar).

Reading Mencius is eerie, a thousands of years old text exactly describing the behavior and values of modern Koreans. What we see in Korea is the Confucian value of education, the perfectibility of oneself and children thru work, sincerity, tranquility, social harmony subordinating the individual’s selfish interests, the five relations and social hierarchy, shame is a virtue, etc. It’s all right there in the ancient texts.

The core concept is that thru 礼 (li; ritual), a natural process takes place which brings about 仁 (ren; benevolence). Ritual is not just going to ancestors graves, but daily linguistic rituals of 요 conjugation, bowing, and more. Koreans themselves don’t really study the classics in great detail, and rarely talk about this stuff. They just practice the rites, and intuitively “get it” as it’s so deeply part of their culture and upbringing.

I don’t see how a person can ever truly understand Korea without understanding Ruism. And being as how we’re living in the most Confucian place on the planet, it’s a great opportunity to study this moral philosophy in real life. Studying Korean language is great, but it's very one dimensional without understanding what's culturally happening around you.

I was told by actual Confucian scholars that kings over the years have bastardized Confucianism and it's a remnant of it's former self in today's society.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on February 24, 2021, 07:34:27 pm
Capitalism and Democracy aren't perfect, but it's in line with human nature and instinct, which is why every Communist nation eventually finds it's way to them.
Confucianism in practice goes against human nature and evolution.
Actually, I think monarchy is far more in line with human nature, instinct, and evolution. Hence why almost all societies that emerged from the state of nature tended to have some sort of ultimate sovereign or small numbers of elites, who would do what they can to pass power through their offspring. It's why democracies often embrace dynastic politicians and companies pass ownership through families.

Don't get me wrong, there is often some form of democracy/popular consent in nature amongst animals and primates, but I don't think you really have laid the foundation for your claim.

That's before we get to the issue of democracy failing in East Asia or being incompatible or that it thrived in Western capitalist-democratic societies. I mean, one look at the history those countries and you find those societies either not having democracy for lengthy periods of time or having their democracy fall into something else.

Humans in both the East and West have embraced democracy, authoritarianism, capitalism, and communism, all if the previous system was not providing "the good life" and if the next system delivered to some extent on that promise. And that good life might not necessarily be determined on governance or culture. A cataclysmic event can bring any system to its knees.

Quote
I don't see hordes of Westerners hiding in ships, containers and using whatever nefarious means possible to emigrate to China and Korea.
No, but you see plenty deciding to visit or work there for a period of time, either for economic reasons or for adventure or "culture".

Also, I think "nefarious" is a bit judgmental on those who are simply leaving behind a fraught situation and looking to engage in the mutually beneficial transaction of labor in exchange for currency and/or safety. 
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: KimchiNinja on February 26, 2021, 07:10:08 am

Capitalism and Democracy aren't perfect, but it's in line with human nature and instinct, which is why every Communist nation eventually finds it's way to them. Confucianism in practice goes against human nature and evolution.

Despite this and other posts being mere propaganda parroting, I’ll answer sincerely from the perspective of Chinese philosophy...

What Chinese philosophy understands better than any is nature and human nature—the universal. Democracy is not universal, it was only tried thousands of years ago in Athens and people considered it bad enough to never try again. Things like Rome and America are republics; pseudo-democracy facades for the masses. “Monarchy” or so-called “dictatorship” is really the base leadership form of homo sapiens. Leadership persists so long as the monarch’s rule is functional for the society, and when it loses functionality it ends.

Chinese philosophy understood this 3000 years ago with “the mandate of nature” (mistranslated as “Heaven” by Christian missionaries). This political philosophy evolved over the millennia, a philosophy of virtue ethics (those at the top should provide “virtuous” i.e. functional rule) and using imperial exams to select the best from the population into the state. Today the Chinese system is the largest governmental meritocracy that has ever existed—using an IQ test with a 1.5% pass rate to select from 1.5 billion people (with the world’s highest avg IQ) into the CPC (90 million people), and then from there rate them on results in governing towns, provinces, and finally...they make it to the circle of elders at the top (the “monarchs”). It’s not clear if the recent “democracy” fad will last, but Lindy Effect says probably no. Monarchy, in various forms is our natural way and it will likely persist.

As far as “capitalism” China has been the world’s largest economy, capitalistic, for thousands of years. What they figured out recently is a solution to American neoliberalism (corporatism), which cannibalizes society until self-collapse. The solution is pretty simple: if you create large state-backed corporate oligopolies, as America has done with the S&P500, you probably want to be smart and keep key ones 51% owned by the state. The state must always have more power than industry. Otherwise industry controls the state, and you end up with American corporate fascism. [By the way, we don’t have that here with Chaebols, because of Confucianism—“just profit, who cares about society” is a violation of roles and responsibilities; and it’s shameful—this is why activist hedge funds like Elliot keep harassing the Chaobols, because they won’t maximize enough profits by cannibalizing the Korean people.]

Confucianism is maybe the closest overlap you can ever get with human nature and instinct. If we imagine a Venn diagram the overlap isn’t perfect, but close. Primate hierarchy, evolutionary roles and responsibilities (son to father, wife to husband, ruler to subject, peer to peer, elder to younger), family values, the four beginnings, etc. And it does all this without inventing a deity; secular; humanism. America always talks of its “universal values” (bizarre specific values which have little historic precedent), but Confucian values are closer to universal.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: MayorHaggar on March 01, 2021, 06:07:34 am
Just a reminder:

Kimchininja was a notorious troll on Dave's until he was banned for being a troll. He appeared here a couple years ago as Ptolemy and trolled hardcore in support of communist China. He disappeared eventually, now he's back as...Kimchininja.
Title: Re: Confucianism; How to Understand Korean Culture
Post by: Aristocrat on March 01, 2021, 09:36:24 am
Just a reminder:

Kimchininja was a notorious troll on Dave's until he was banned for being a troll. He appeared here a couple years ago as Ptolemy and trolled hardcore in support of communist China. He disappeared eventually, now he's back as...Kimchininja.

Trolling in Kimchinija's sense has become quite trivialized in recent years. Regardless, it always hits me as to how deeply unhappy a person has to be in the real world to devote so much time and energy into trolling. There are about 4 people on this site
I'd categorize as trolls and each one of them only seems to join a conversation or have something to say when it's time to criticize another user or start an argument; how sad.

I don't think he's one of those '50c army'' guys, their posts are more curt and with terrible English. I think he's genuinely just a sad, old expat  with nothing better to do.