Waygook.org

All about South Korea => Life in Korea => Topic started by: hangook77 on December 09, 2020, 08:23:29 am

Title: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: hangook77 on December 09, 2020, 08:23:29 am
Warning about Covid Vaccine. 

*I am putting this on Korea page because those vaccines will soon be here and these may be effects to be cautious about if you decide to get it.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/08/pfizer-moderna-covid-vaccine-side-effects-trials.html

Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: waygo0k on December 09, 2020, 08:26:50 am
Did you read the actual article?
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: tylerthegloob on December 09, 2020, 08:28:08 am
your options are probably going to be take the vaccine or get fired (at least if you work in a public school)
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: SPQR on December 09, 2020, 08:28:32 am
Blah, blah, blah, blah.

Gimme the shot.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: CO2 on December 09, 2020, 08:32:19 am
The guy had a fever overnight.......... .......... And it disappeared the next day.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: D.L.Orean on December 09, 2020, 08:35:58 am
The guy had a fever overnight.......... .......... And it disappeared the next day.

And autism by the end of the week
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: hangook77 on December 09, 2020, 08:36:11 am
Did you read the actual article?

Yes, I did.  Unpleasant side effects.  I never had those for any other vaccine I took.  One guy even broke a tooth.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: hangook77 on December 09, 2020, 08:38:18 am
your options are probably going to be take the vaccine or get fired (at least if you work in a public school)

Fine as long as it is safe.  I will get fired and refuse to take any Chinese made one.  I would only take The two in the article if it came down to it.  But I would want to wait to see what other side effects there may or may not be.  (As we will not know anything for a while.)
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: 745sticky on December 09, 2020, 08:41:40 am
The guy had a fever overnight.......... .......... And it disappeared the next day.
Yes, I did.  Unpleasant side effects.  I never had those for any other vaccine I took.  One guy even broke a tooth.

yeah c02, didn't you see(02) that one guy who cracked his tooth?
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: Kyndo on December 09, 2020, 08:45:11 am
How the heck do you even pass off a broken tooth as a vaccine side-effect lol!!!
What did he try to do, eat the syringe????  :shocked:
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: 745sticky on December 09, 2020, 08:48:46 am
How the heck do you even pass off a broken tooth as a vaccine side-effect lol!!!
What did he try to do, eat the syringe????  :shocked:

apparently it was because of his teeth chattering? couldve just stuck a towel in his mouth or something but oh well i guess
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: CO2 on December 09, 2020, 08:48:49 am
"I was shaking so hard, I cracked my tooth!"

Yeah, damn vaccine. My dad cracked his tooth on some free popcorn at Jumbo Video (self serve, it is/was a movie rental place in Ontario)

He tried to sue but they told him he put the popcorn in his bag himself so he should have been more careful.

Sometimes you can't blame others for what happens. It doesn't mean you beat yourself up, either. You accept it and move on.

apparently it was because of his teeth chattering? couldve just stuck a towel in his mouth or something but oh well i guess

(https://previews.123rf.com/images/adragan8/adragan81904/adragan8190400173/121963594-red-ball-gag-in-mouth-isolated-on-white-background-intimate-toys-sex-abuse-slavery-.jpg)
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: Kyndo on December 09, 2020, 09:33:24 am
apparently it was because of his teeth chattering? couldve just stuck a towel in his mouth or something but oh well i guess
That.... actually makes sense.
I recently had my Hep vaccinations (my son was getting his vaccines, and I brought up the fact that I'm not sure which Hep I was immunized for, so they ran a test and apparently I don't have antibodies for any of them so...) and came down with a mild fever. Usually nothing to worry about, but of course they're taking everybody's temperature at school, and they totally freaked out when it came out that I was running a fever. I didn't want to take sick days (they'd probably make me stay home for the full 2 weeks, and that'd look bad on my renewal applications) so I had a heck of a time convincing them that it was just Hepititis, not Corona lol. Interestingly, I was vaccinated in the left arm for A, and the right for B, and noticed that my reaction to A was a lot stronger than for B.

Luckily, neither reaction nor fever was strong enough to warrant a (https://previews.123rf.com/images/adragan8/adragan81904/adragan8190400173/121963594-red-ball-gag-in-mouth-isolated-on-white-background-intimate-toys-sex-abuse-slavery-.jpg).
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: VanIslander on December 09, 2020, 10:44:25 am
I lost a family member shortly after a vaccination shot. I am skeptical.

Maybe after 3 years of hard data.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: waygo0k on December 09, 2020, 11:09:16 am
I'm willing to risk a chipped tooth if it means I get to freely travel again.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: plan b on December 09, 2020, 11:57:08 am
The reality is that a very small percentage of people will die from the adverse effects of the vaccine. Many others will flood the emergency rooms of hospitals because they think they are on their death bed. The media will go with the story and many people will be put off from taking the vaccine. At that point, Pzifer and Moderna's stock prices will go down.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: Don Hobak on December 09, 2020, 12:04:54 pm
The tooth might have already been cracked — or at least compromised — due to coronavirus-related reasons.

 “A Dentist Sees More Cracked Teeth. What’s Going On?” https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/08/well/live/dentists-tooth-teeth-cracks-fractures-coronavirus-stress-grinding.html?referringSource=articleShare

Quote
One obvious answer is stress. From Covid-induced nightmares to “doomsurfing” to “coronaphobia,” it’s no secret that pandemic-related anxiety is affecting our collective mental health. That stress, in turn, leads to clenching and grinding, which can damage the teeth.

But more specifically, the surge I’m seeing in tooth trauma may be a result of two additional factors.

First, an unprecedented number of Americans are suddenly working from home, often wherever they can cobble together a makeshift workstation: on the sofa, perched on a barstool, tucked into a corner of the kitchen counter. The awkward body positions that ensue can cause us to hunch our shoulders forward, curving the spine into something resembling a C-shape.

If you’re wondering why a dentist cares about ergonomics, the simple truth is that poor posture during the day can translate into a grinding problem at night.

Second, most of us aren’t getting the restorative sleep we need. Since the onset of the pandemic, I’ve listened to patient after patient describe sudden restlessness and insomnia. These are hallmarks of an overactive or dominant sympathetic nervous system, which drives the body’s “fight or flight” response. Think of a gladiator preparing for battle: balling his fists, clenching his jaw. Because of the stress of coronavirus, the body stays in a battle-ready state of arousal, instead of resting and recharging. All that tension goes straight to the teeth.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: Lazio on December 09, 2020, 12:08:42 pm
Ever read the side effects listed with any random basic medicine? I'm talking about over the counter stuff like pain killers, fever reducers and allergy medication.
There are usually dozens of possible side effects listed from mild: "insomnia" "fatique" "dizziness" etc. to more serious sounding things like "diarrhea" "fever" "headache" ... and towards the end you can often see some real scary shit like: "paralysis" "internal bleeding" and even "death".
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: Don Hobak on December 09, 2020, 12:19:50 pm
I lost a family member shortly after a vaccination shot. I am skeptical.

Maybe after 3 years of hard data.

“How South Korea’s Flu Vaccine Scare Offers Lessons for Other Nations”
 https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/24/world/asia/korea-flu-vaccine-coronavirus-scare.html?referringSource=articleShare

Quote
Flu vaccines had been tested and safely used for decades in South Korea. If the credibility of the program could be so easily undermined by unsubstantiated claims, he wondered what would happen once millions of people started taking coronavirus vaccines.

“I think this extreme situation was created because we are living through this unusual time of Covid-19 and people are overly sensitive about vaccines,” Dr. Jung wrote on Oct. 22, in the first of a series of Facebook posts criticizing the news reports.

He warned that reporting on “post-vaccination deaths” when there was no scientific evidence establishing a connection was like counting how many people had died after eating breakfast.

“If people don’t understand this, it could lead to the proliferation of anti-vaxxers here, like the ones in the West,” he said.

While the government stood by the safety of the vaccines, it also launched an investigation into the deaths, hoping to use science to counter misinformation. If, for instance, all the cases were linked to a particular vaccine or clinic, or if all the deaths were similar, it would raise red flags. Multiple deaths from anaphylaxis, a severe allergic reaction, would also implicate the vaccine.

But the government’s forensic investigations, which would eventually rule out such connections, didn’t move as quickly as the panic spread.

“Elderly people die every day, of a stroke, of heart attack, but the media reported these deaths as if none of them died on a normal day,” said Dr. Ki Mo-ran, an epidemiologist at the National Cancer Center who sat on the government’s vaccination supervisory group. “As the people waited for the results, anxiety grew, trust fell and the vaccination program suffered.”

To help quell some of the public’s concerns, Dr. Jung published an opinion piece in the Journal of Korean Medical Science pointing out that it’s not unusual for some people to die coincidentally from unrelated causes, after receiving a vaccine. He cited a study published in 2013 that showed 23 out of every 100,000 Americans aged between 75 and 84 had died from a variety of causes within a week of taking their vaccines.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on December 09, 2020, 05:58:33 pm
Now that we've seen numbers skyrocket across Canada and Europe, will all those dipshit Euros, Cancucks, and Lefties who thought this had something to do with "leadership" or whatever other dumbass explanation they came up with admit they were wrong?

Turns out "leadership" doesn't mean nearly as much as people thought it did. People are going to people and people's lives and behaviors are far too common across the developed world for it to come down much to "leadership" outside of China-level measures or just flat-out ineptitude and doing diddly-poo.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: confusedsafferinkorea on December 09, 2020, 06:08:26 pm
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4072441

Chinese vaccines appear to be fake...... as usual.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: JNM on December 09, 2020, 07:01:02 pm
Ever read the side effects listed with any random basic medicine? I'm talking about over the counter stuff like pain killers, fever reducers and allergy medication.
There are usually dozens of possible side effects listed from mild: "insomnia" "fatique" "dizziness" etc. to more serious sounding things like "diarrhea" "fever" "headache" ... and towards the end you can often see some real scary shit like: "paralysis" "internal bleeding" and even "death".


... and the condition known as “hotdog finger”.

:)
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: plan b on December 10, 2020, 10:03:29 am
People are starting to suffer allergic reactions to the vaccine. This is the tip of the iceberg.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/u-k-probing-if-allergic-reactions-linked-pfizer-vaccine-n1250536

After two health care workers in the U.K. suffered serious allergic reactions after receiving the new Pfizer-BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine this week, investigators are looking into whether the incidents were linked to the shots.

The Food and Drug Administration vaccine advisory panel is expected to address concerns about the allergic reactions when it meets Dec. 10 to consider whether to grant emergency use authorization to Pfizer for its vaccine, chief vaccine adviser for Operation Warp Speed Moncef Slaoui said Wednesday during a briefing.

The U.K.’s Medical and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency warned that people who have a history of serious allergic reactions shouldn’t receive the new Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine as they investigate the two adverse reactions that occurred almost immediately after getting the shots.

The two people affected were staff members with the National Health Service and had a history of allergies. Both are recovering. Authorities have not specified what their reactions were.

During the Operation Warp Speed briefing, Slaoui indicated that the FDA's panel of vaccine experts may also advise people with known severe allergies to not take the vaccine "until we understand exactly what happened here."


There were no reported allergic reactions among the participants in the late-stage trials in the U.S., a Pfizer executive told NBC News Wednesday. About 44,000 people received the two doses of the vaccine during those trials.

In the meantime, the British warning is for anyone who has had a significant allergic reaction to a vaccine, medicine or food. That includes anyone who has been told to carry an adrenaline shot or others who have had potentially fatal allergic reactions.

“As is common with new vaccines the MHRA have advised on a precautionary basis that people with a significant history of allergic reactions do not receive this vaccination after two people with a history of significant allergic reactions responded adversely yesterday,” Professor Stephen Powis, medical director for the NHS in England, said in a statement. “Both are recovering well.”

The medical regulatory agency also said vaccinations should not be carried out in facilities that don’t have resuscitation equipment.

Pfizer and BioNTech said they were working with investigators “to better understand each case and its causes.″

“In the pivotal phase three clinical trial, this vaccine was generally well tolerated with no serious safety concerns reported by the independent Data Monitoring Committee,” the companies said.

Documents published by the two companies showed that people with a history of severe allergic reactions were excluded from the trials, and doctors were advised to look out for such reactions in trial participants who weren’t previously known to have severe allergies.

Even in non-emergency situations, health authorities must closely monitor new vaccines and medications because studies in tens of thousands of people can’t detect a rare risk that would affect 1 in 1 million.

Dr. Peter Openshaw, a professor of experimental medicine at Imperial College London, said there is a “very small” chance of an allergic reaction to any vaccine.

The MHRA last week gave emergency authorization to the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, making Britain the first country to allow its widespread use.

The U.K. began its mass vaccination program on Tuesday, offering the shot to people over 80, nursing home staff and some NHS workers. It’s not clear how many people have received the jab so far.

Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: oglop on December 10, 2020, 10:06:50 am
i thought that most vaccines shouldn't be taken if you have a history of allergies. this isn't really news, is it?
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: plan b on December 10, 2020, 10:12:37 am
i thought that most vaccines shouldn't be taken if you have a history of allergies. this isn't really news, is it?

It'll become a story because such a large percentage of people will take it. Many have no idea they have allergies. Many are in for a beating.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: hangook77 on December 10, 2020, 11:44:02 am
That.... actually makes sense.
I recently had my Hep vaccinations (my son was getting his vaccines, and I brought up the fact that I'm not sure which Hep I was immunized for, so they ran a test and apparently I don't have antibodies for any of them so...) and came down with a mild fever. Usually nothing to worry about, but of course they're taking everybody's temperature at school, and they totally freaked out when it came out that I was running a fever. I didn't want to take sick days (they'd probably make me stay home for the full 2 weeks, and that'd look bad on my renewal applications) so I had a heck of a time convincing them that it was just Hepititis, not Corona lol. Interestingly, I was vaccinated in the left arm for A, and the right for B, and noticed that my reaction to A was a lot stronger than for B.

Luckily, neither reaction nor fever was strong enough to warrant a (https://previews.123rf.com/images/adragan8/adragan81904/adragan8190400173/121963594-red-ball-gag-in-mouth-isolated-on-white-background-intimate-toys-sex-abuse-slavery-.jpg).


Why would it count against you?  If we exibit any symptoms, we can "work from home".  It has no bearing on our attendance.  I had a cough from an allergy in September.  My teacher told me to stay home and she called all my other schools that week to arrange it.  It was not covid and was gone in a day or two.  But, I got a week off and I had to sign a special work from home form when I got back.  Didn't count against me. 
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: hangook77 on December 10, 2020, 11:45:21 am
Now that we've seen numbers skyrocket across Canada and Europe, will all those dipshit Euros, Cancucks, and Lefties who thought this had something to do with "leadership" or whatever other dumbass explanation they came up with admit they were wrong?

Turns out "leadership" doesn't mean nearly as much as people thought it did. People are going to people and people's lives and behaviors are far too common across the developed world for it to come down much to "leadership" outside of China-level measures or just flat-out ineptitude and doing diddly-poo.

Of course.  It's all Trump's fault somehow.  A virus spreads no matter who the leader is.  They just needed a narrative to give him bad press and try to make him lose. 
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: confusedsafferinkorea on December 10, 2020, 11:52:38 am
Of course.  It's all Trump's fault somehow.  A virus spreads no matter who the leader is.  They just needed a narrative to give him bad press and try to make him lose.

And in the meanwhile Xi gets a free pass.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: oglop on December 10, 2020, 11:58:08 am
It'll become a story because such a large percentage of people will take it. Many have no idea they have allergies. Many are in for a beating.
if they don't realise you have allergies, they almost certainly aren't serious allergies, so they should be fine taking the vaccine
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: hangook77 on December 10, 2020, 12:48:52 pm
Of course.  It's all Trump's fault somehow.  A virus spreads no matter who the leader is.  They just needed a narrative to give him bad press and try to make him lose.

And in the meanwhile Xi gets a free pass.

Of course, the western media owned by 6 conglomerates wants to do business there.  So, investigative reporting isn't allowed.  Take everything the CCP says as gospel. 
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: hangook77 on December 10, 2020, 12:50:59 pm
Anyways, I am not anti vax.  Just know potential side effects and be aware.  I took quite a few before I came here in 2005 and 2006ish.  (Twinrix Hep A and B, which they said was suppose to be good for 20 years.  Though I think Korea is a much cleaner country going into 2021 than it was nearly 15 to 20 years or so ago.)
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on December 10, 2020, 01:36:17 pm
Of course, the western media owned by 6 conglomerates wants to do business there.  So, investigative reporting isn't allowed.  Take everything the CCP says as gospel. 
Of course we should trust those news sources because.......brand name familiarity?

Like is there any objective reason that people offer?  People claim they are more rigorous and objective, but there is little evidence of that. In reality it's more "These brand names are familiar to me, and I don't want to face the fact that I might have been had over the past 10-20 years by these clowns." Same thing happened with fans of the Big Three in Detroit. People refused to admit they were mismanaged and churning out a crap product because of brand loyalty and identity. They refused to admit that those companies were driven by shareholders, not delivering the best product possible.

Are they completely worthless? No, but they shouldn't be given the deference that some give to them. Treat them as just another news outlet pushing an agenda on behalf of whatever shareholder/advertiser/management interest is motivating them.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: VanIslander on December 11, 2020, 03:36:02 am
This is a half-billion dollar product.

And that is just in terms of local sales.

Consider everything you have learned about business, government and life accordingly.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: oglop on December 11, 2020, 07:27:55 am
This is a half-billion dollar product.

And that is just in terms of local sales.

Consider everything you have learned about business, government and life accordingly.
go on...
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: Kyndo on December 11, 2020, 11:12:10 am
Why would it count against you?  If we exibit any symptoms, we can "work from home".  It has no bearing on our attendance.  I had a cough from an allergy in September.  My teacher told me to stay home and she called all my other schools that week to arrange it.  It was not covid and was gone in a day or two.  But, I got a week off and I had to sign a special work from home form when I got back.  Didn't count against me. 

Because according to POE/MOE re-signing/transfer criteria, any number of sick days that we use over 3 will result in points taken. Don't quote me on the following, but I believe that the cutoff for getting a school transfer is 80/100, with renewal is a bit lower. Maybe 70/100?

 Anyway, if your school is requesting that you stay home, chances are that they're not writing down your absence as "sick day" but rather as a "work from home day".
On the other hand, some schools are less flexible /overly strict and may end up giving you a lower renewal score.  :sad:

I just mentioned it because too many EPIK folk believe that sick days are like get out of jail cards. They're not: use them sparingly if you can!
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: hangook77 on December 11, 2020, 11:17:02 am
Because according to POE/MOE re-signing/transfer criteria, any number of sick days that we use over 3 will result in points taken. Don't quote me on the following, but I believe that the cutoff for getting a school transfer is 80/100, with renewal is a bit lower. Maybe 70/100?

 Anyway, if your school is requesting that you stay home, chances are that they're not writing down your absence as "sick day" but rather as a "work from home day".
On the other hand, some schools are less flexible /overly strict and may end up giving you a lower renewal score.  :sad:

I just mentioned it because too many EPIK folk believe that sick days are like get out of jail cards. They're not: use them sparingly if you can!

It's not a sick day.  It's work from home.  I didn't ask to stay home.  The school ordered me to stay home.  That's on them and not on me as I was still willing to come to work.  I didn't sign out as absent on the attendance sheet.  Instead, they gave me a different form called "work from home" that I had to sign instead when I got back.  It is not suppose to count against you. 

Well, my experience anyways.  If it were counted as absent, I would have refused to stay home.  (I guess I just re read what you wrote.)  But, I do tend to assert myself politely sometimes (not rudely).  Some foreign teachers never stick stick up for themselves. 

I agree if someone abuses the absence, then they should get a kick in the rear.  I thought renewal criteria was 80% already.  My province perhaps.  But we do multiple schools and can ask the POE to transfer to other towns within the province quite easily.  Fortunately most teachers are happy with my games and activities and my fun spirit with the kids.  I can get pretty casual chatty with the VP and P at some schools (especially when they are women for some reason).  I haven't taken an actual sick day for a couple of years except the covid forced work at home.  If I miss a day or two, it is because I really don't feel well.  I have to feel really terrible, in fact. 

Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: Kyndo on December 11, 2020, 12:36:29 pm
It's not a sick day.  It's work from home.  I didn't ask to stay home.  The school ordered me to stay home.  That's on them and not on me as I was still willing to come to work.  I didn't sign out as absent on the attendance sheet.  Instead, they gave me a different form called "work from home" that I had to sign instead when I got back.  It is not suppose to count against you. Well, my experience anyways.  If it were counted as absent, I would have refused to stay home.  (I guess I just re read what you wrote.)  But, I do tend to assert myself politely sometimes (not rudely).  Some foreign teachers never stick stick up for themselves.
Right.
Like I said, it's up to one's school's discretion what they mark your day off as.
Some schools will not mark it down as anything (lucky!), others will mark it as a vacation day (okay, I guess), while soe will mark it down as a sick day (which might cause one problems down the line).
Clearly you have a decent school.
My point, though, was that NETs (not you in particular) should be *VERY* certain to inquire how their absence will be recorded in NIES. Less chance for unpleasant surprises down the line.

I thought renewal criteria was 80% already.  My province perhaps. But we do multiple schools and can ask the POE to transfer to other towns within the province quite easily.  Fortunately most teachers are happy with my games and activities and my fun spirit with the kids.  I can get pretty casual chatty with the VP and P at some schools (especially when they are women for some reason).  I haven't taken an actual sick day for a couple of years except the covid forced work at home.  If I miss a day or two, it is because I really don't feel well.  I have to feel really terrible, in fact. 
It might be 80%, I'm not entirely certain (which I think I pointed out). I do know, however, that the requirements for a transfer are actually higher than for just a renewal.

And yeah, getting along well with the admin is always good. I make a point of rolling into the office with snacks once every month or two.  Shameless bribery ftw! :smiley:
It has the additional benefit of priming the pump: usually after I do it, I only need to wait a ffew days before some other teacher, not to be outdone, comes in with their own goodies. Win-win-win!

Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: pkjh on December 11, 2020, 02:03:49 pm
Because according to POE/MOE re-signing/transfer criteria, any number of sick days that we use over 3 will result in points taken. Don't quote me on the following, but I believe that the cutoff for getting a school transfer is 80/100, with renewal is a bit lower. Maybe 70/100?

 Anyway, if your school is requesting that you stay home, chances are that they're not writing down your absence as "sick day" but rather as a "work from home day".
On the other hand, some schools are less flexible /overly strict and may end up giving you a lower renewal score.  :sad:

I just mentioned it because too many EPIK folk believe that sick days are like get out of jail cards. They're not: use them sparingly if you can!
If the school likes you, they'll make sure you'll get above the cut-off line. In the end the evaluation scores mean very little. Funny, a certain lady in my area was bragging that she supposedly scored 100% on here evaluation. It doesn't matter, I'm still making whatever level I'm at.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: Kyndo on December 11, 2020, 02:27:29 pm
Just once? I've done it like 4 times.*
I think a lot of us have.
Like you say, if the school likes you, then everything's hunky-dory, otherwise those scores will magically start to fall.
Nice to have official, meticulous, multi-variable criteria to qualify your vagueish feelings about a person, right?

* Would've been 5 years in a row, except I dropped a cup of hot coffee on the floor in front of the principal, and probably completely ruined a very expensive looking suit. That dropped me like 10 points right there, but luckily I smiled and said "annyeonghaseyo" in "very good Korean" the next day, so that was immediately 5 points in my favour.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: oglop on December 11, 2020, 03:19:24 pm
those evaluations are a joke. is there even a criteria to be judged on? if there is, i've never been shown it. would probably be nice to know what you're judged on before the class, but i suppose that would be too much professionalism for public schools.

in my final public school year, the principal marked me down (he can't speak english) because i wrote too many words on the board, which would "confuse the students" (in his words). i had written something like 4 words, plus it was a high level class. oh, he marked me down for drinking water during class too (despite it being august and the principal refusing to let teachers turn on the AC at all)

what a waste of everyone's time.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: stoat on December 11, 2020, 04:47:02 pm
Being judged on criteria you're not aware of is like being on trial for a crime you're not told about. Kafkaesque
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: VanIslander on December 12, 2020, 04:15:52 pm
https://youtu.be/oPpzJAzdpTU
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: gogators! on December 13, 2020, 07:24:02 am
Of course.  It's all Trump's fault somehow.  A virus spreads no matter who the leader is.  They just needed a narrative to give him bad press and try to make him lose. 
Keep telling yourself that.  It's all the virus's fault, not the guy who said it didn't exist, would disappear, encouraged people to ignore it, refused to step up and implement a federal initiative to halt the pandemic, who held super spreader events, the guy whose job it was to lead and abdicated all responsibility.

What beautiful lies trump and his cultists tell.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: Kyndo on December 13, 2020, 11:06:53 am
those evaluations are a joke. is there even a criteria to be judged on? if there is, i've never been shown it. would probably be nice to know what you're judged on before the class, but i suppose that would be too much professionalism for public schools.

I know there is an actual evaluation form, as one of my ex-coworkers and I would joke about it fairly often, and she mentioned having had to fill one out.
I think I'm gonna go ask my school for a blank copy of it tomorrow, and see what happens!  :smiley:
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on December 13, 2020, 04:43:14 pm
Keep telling yourself that.  It's all the virus's fault, not the guy who said it didn't exist, would disappear, encouraged people to ignore it, refused to step up and implement a federal initiative to halt the pandemic, who held super spreader events, the guy whose job it was to lead and abdicated all responsibility.

What beautiful lies trump and his cultists tell.

And yet despite all that it's flaring up again and again across Europe and Canada. Yes dipshit Euros and stupid anti-Trumpers ignored science and believed that everything was because of Trump.

They've been proven wrong. The virus doesn't spread because of Trump or what he says. It spreads because people are people and live lives in 21st century developed economies and all the behavior that entails. Duh.

Only idiots would think Trump's tweets and proclamations and empty statements like "believe science" are what affects the virus. Seriously, how stupid do you have to be to think that?
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: oglop on December 13, 2020, 04:46:56 pm
can we not make this trump thread number 32489327498734
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: VanIslander on December 13, 2020, 05:15:57 pm
I expect people will stop talking about the current President of the United States of America when he leaves office.

Obama used to be on every second thread.

It's the nature of the beast.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: hippo on December 13, 2020, 08:33:49 pm
Maga Rally Livestream (https://t.co/OR3G9Dgb3Y)

This is outrageous and irresponsible. 
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: 745sticky on December 14, 2020, 10:15:24 am
can we not make this trump thread number 32489327498734

lol
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on December 14, 2020, 10:49:19 am
Also, remember when everyone thought Korean spitting, not covering their mouths when coughing, non hand-washing, sharing food, and everything else would mean a pandemic would run riot here while it wouldn't be as bad back home.

1 poster here was able to look at that and think it was horseshit. 1 person was able to notice that flimsily covering your mouth with your hand was not the prophylactic measure people claimed it to be.

Of course those people wrong about that also blame Trump and shout nonsense like "Finally we have a President who will believe science."

As if they themselves engage in anything resembling scientific, rational thought.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: Kyndo on December 14, 2020, 11:12:07 am
Also, remember when everyone thought Korean spitting, not covering their mouths when coughing, non hand-washing, sharing food, and everything else would mean a pandemic would run riot here while it wouldn't be as bad back home?

I think people were complaining that it was unhygienic, not that it would cause a pandemic. If that was actually stated, that would be pretty darn hyperbolic and would deserve a good lolling.

Korea's response to Covid19 has been exemplary, and that's nothing to spit on!
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: hangook77 on December 14, 2020, 12:06:02 pm
I think people were complaining that it was unhygienic, not that it would cause a pandemic. If that was actually stated, that would be pretty darn hyperbolic and would deserve a good lolling.

Korea's response to Covid19 has been exemplary, and that's nothing to spit on!


Yet Covid is going through the roof.  the point is you can't blame anyone.  It's a virus and will run it's course, especially during colder weather.  It wasn't Trump's fault, nor is it Moon Jae In's fault.  It is simply what it is.  Take personal precautions and stay safe. 

I use anti bacterial wipes and clean the door handles to my room, the tables, chairs, countertops, computer keyboard and mouse, etc.  Lots of things to do.  I don't trust anyone else to clean and sanitize as they should a few times a day.  (It's why I haven''t been to a gym in a year.  You know no one is getting of their lazy ass to sanitize and clean all the equipment several times a day.  Also, heavy breathing while wearing a mask is uncomfortable.  Get more window guards or something.   

The point is a lot of folks letting their guard down.  I do take the mask off when it gets to be a bit much.  But I also sanitize the hell out of my room and work space. so touching something and then touching my mask means I am not in danger (or as much). 

As for the spitting and hacking everywhere, use to be a lot of bad habits here.  TB use to be rampant here too, especially amongst the older generation.  I got my twinrix hep A and B shots in the mid 2000's just to be safe.  (Especially with sharing food with shared chopsticks at the table.)  I take responsibility for myself.  Trump and Moon Jae In don't take responsibility for me nor do I assign them blame. 
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: Kyndo on December 14, 2020, 12:31:54 pm
What you say is true, but a government that takes a problem seriously will be able to do a lot more than a government that does not.
Korea invoked emergency powers at the beginning of the epidemic. By doing so, they gave themselves the power to track its citizens, to detain those that did not comply with safety regulations, and laid out a well planned course of action for controlling the spread of the virus.

    While these actions in and of themselves were quite effective, it also showed the Korean people that this was not something that could be safely ignored. Treating Covid19 like a serious issue right from the very beginning made it far easier to control its spread.

Also, you're correct that Covid is going through the roof here in Korea: the numbers are higher than ever.
However, even with the 1,030 new cases per day (1:52,000), Korea is doing several orders of magnitude better than various other countries.
For example, the USA had 207,444 confirmed cases. (1:1,600)  :huh:
   A lot of that is due to the horribly politicized response to the epidemic. Nearly half that country refuses to take effective measures against the virus because "that's what the other team does". :sad:

TL;DR: I disagree: while happenstance, culture, and bad luck can account for some, a countries government certainly is responsible for a portion of the blame too.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: hangook77 on December 14, 2020, 01:14:12 pm
What you say is true, but a government that takes a problem seriously will be able to do a lot more than a government that does not.
Korea invoked emergency powers at the beginning of the epidemic. By doing so, they gave themselves the power to track its citizens, to detain those that did not comply with safety regulations, and laid out a well planned course of action for controlling the spread of the virus.

    While these actions in and of themselves were quite effective, it also showed the Korean people that this was not something that could be safely ignored. Treating Covid19 like a serious issue right from the very beginning made it far easier to control its spread.

Also, you're correct that Covid is going through the roof here in Korea: the numbers are higher than ever.
However, even with the 1,030 new cases per day (1:52,000), Korea is doing several orders of magnitude better than various other countries.
For example, the USA had 207,444 confirmed cases. (1:1,600)  :huh:
   A lot of that is due to the horribly politicized response to the epidemic. Nearly half that country refuses to take effective measures against the virus because "that's what the other team does". :sad:

TL;DR: I disagree: while happenstance, culture, and bad luck can account for some, a countries government certainly is responsible for a portion of the blame too.

The US has had a lot of problems.  But being a large country with strict seperation between States and the Federal Government has sometimes led to problems.  Koreans do have less civil liberties written into their Constitutions and the national government has a lot more power.  In the US, citizens have rights many more than most other democracies, the States have a lot of power and control.  The States share as much to blame as the Feds.  Cuomo running off his mouth while having record number of deaths still occurred.  What was different was the coastal areas were getting hammered in the spring and the interior has been getting hammered now. 

Korea with it's system allowing the government to have more power federally (it use to be dictatorship until 30 years or so ago) and it's experience with MERS in 2015 when another woman was President, allowed a fast initial response this time.  It had little to do with Moon.  But his party got credit and got a big majority in legislative elections temporarily suspending his plummeting approval ratings.  Now they are falling again and covid is spiking including places which were initially safe in the spring outside of Seoul.  Has a lot in common with the US that way. 

The US is the 3rd largest country in the world. It will have high numbers regardless.  China's numbers aren't real.  How many developing countries are testing and reporting accurately also?  Yes, it does suck and I do take it seriously myself.  It is real and it came from a bio lab in Wuhan most likely.  The point is I take responsibility for myself and watch my own ass.  Government nor anyone else will ever have my best interests at heart. 

As for the US, most aren't willing to trade in their freedoms and rights for temporary convenience of control.  The downside is that the feds bureaucracy does seem to bungle things sometimes.  As I understand it, the bird flu of 2009 was screwed up badly by Biden and Obama.  Complete incompetence.  They just got lucky it went away fast.  Had it have gone big like this, folks would have been blaming them too. 
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on December 14, 2020, 01:36:24 pm
I think people were complaining that it was unhygienic, not that it would cause a pandemic. If that was actually stated, that would be pretty darn hyperbolic and would deserve a good lolling.
Not that it would CAUSE a pandemic, but in a pandemic, Korea would do far worse because of certain habits, while covering your mouth while coughing was some great deterrent to disease rather than what I declared it to be- Pretty much a performative gesture. Not to mention every other claim that Koreans are so incompetent they couldn't manage anything and would panic and blah blah blah.

Seriously, all those people who said that crap pre-pandemic should eff off permanently with their opinions on culture and whatnot.

  TB use to be rampant here too, especially amongst the older generation. 
I'm not sure the term "rampant" is appropriate, more like higher than most of the developed world, not as bad as most developing countries.

Quote
  (Especially with sharing food with shared chopsticks at the table.)
Not the danger that people have made it out to be, or else Korea would have been completely infected.

Quote
  A lot of that is due to the horribly politicized response to the epidemic. Nearly half that country refuses to take effective measures against the virus because "that's what the other team does". :sad:
That's debatable. Trump could have "listened to the scientists" (whatever that rubbish phrase means) and still gotten an outcome that was the same. The Dems and media still would have ripped him to shreds. Trump could have instituted a national mask mandate and people would bitch and moan that he was a dictator and trying to throw poor people in jail or whatever. Obama could have been president and done the exact same things and the media would have proclaimed him a hero and blamed flyover country. People still wouldn't listen about masks. So much of this comes down to things other than "leadership". The natural urge of people is to look towards "leadership" for an explanation rather than more mundane reasons.

I mean, look at the idiots who think NZ's results are more due to leadership rather than having a small population on an island in the middle of nowhere. Yet the majority of people seem to believe that "leadership" was the decisive factor in NZ's case.

"Leadership" is so meaningless. We've seen the thing flare up repeatedly in Europe and Canada which have "good leadership" and "listen to science", but guess what they also have? Human beings in the developed world who do human things.

As far as Asia's numbers being substantially lower, I think that tracing protocols might have some effect, but mostly there's probably a genetic element to it. The tracing protocol here is good, but it's not like the second an outbreak happens they're tracking you down and a frickin CDC team is rolling up like the SWAT van and testing you. I remember when the Itaewon outbreak happened they gave people like, days to show up, during which people were putzing around.

Our systems are designed to essentially function regardless of "leadership". Our behavior is unchanged because of "leadership". Look at our personal behavior under Obama vs. Trump or Moon or Park Geun hye, anything change because of who the leader was? No, because we're in a 21st century developed economy. We do the same things- Wake up, go to work, grab lunch, work some more, go out or go home after work, do some shopping, entertainment and maybe travel on the weekends, eat, drink, f*ck, etc. etc. Same shit around the world and THAT has far more impact on viral spread than "leadership" or "listening to scientists" or "treating the issue seriously." Both Belgium and Germany have all those things in common and got completely different outcomes. Who knows why, but it isn't one of those factors.

Finally "listening to scientists" is one of the dumbest things out there. For starters, it's the kind of thing said by someone who has never been in a leadership position in a large, financially powerful institution. Anyone who has would know that "scientists" are telling leaders to do certain things every day and on top of that the scientists all have different opinions and think they should be running things. And that's just within a discipline. Then you got one kind of scientist saying the other scientists are full of shit because they aren't accounting for Factor X because their science doesn't deal with that. Add in the fact that it's a fog of war situation with incomplete information and well it's not so simple. This isn't like a Chernobyl or some Asteroid heading at the Earth. This is something that you have to listen to a lot of different experts on because it affects a lot of different fields and isn't a single confined object.

Finally, you can tell "leadership" and "listening to scientists" are horseshit points due to the lack of specificity. The vaguer the claim is, the less it is rooted in actual science and actual truth.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on December 14, 2020, 01:39:37 pm
As I understand it, the bird flu of 2009 was screwed up badly by Biden and Obama.  Complete incompetence.  They just got lucky it went away fast.  Had it have gone big like this, folks would have been blaming them too.
Nope, media would have covered for them like they did back then.

"But they listen to scientists."  :rolleyes: 

And don't forget their precious pandemic playbook which is about as detailed, informative, and relevant as whatever training manual you get tossed by EPIK when you start teaching. In other words, it's sole purpose is to check off a box and it's best function is as a paper weight. Meanwhile idiots who have zero reading comprehension or understanding look at it and go "Oooooooo it looks so pretty and it has big words and flow charts...it must be a serious document!"
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: pkjh on December 14, 2020, 01:47:07 pm
Nope, media would have covered for them like they did back then.

"But they listen to scientists."  :rolleyes: 

And don't forget their precious pandemic playbook which is about as detailed, informative, and relevant as whatever training manual you get tossed by EPIK when you start teaching. In other words, it's sole purpose is to check off a box and it's best function is as a paper weight. Meanwhile idiots who have zero reading comprehension or understanding look at it and go "Oooooooo it looks so pretty and it has big words and flow charts...it must be a serious document!"
Wasn't it the swine flu?

Anyways, the swine flu wasn't nearly as deadly as covid-19. And it hit young kids more than adults since it was a flu derivative, and most adults have pretty good flu immunity.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: Kyndo on December 14, 2020, 01:56:20 pm
The US has had a lot of problems.  But being a large country with strict separation between States and the Federal Government has sometimes led to problems.  Koreans do have less civil liberties written into their Constitutions and the national government has a lot more power.  In the US, citizens have rights many more than most other democracies, the States have a lot of power and control.  The States share as much to blame as the Feds.  Cuomo running off his mouth while having record number of deaths still occurred.  What was different was the coastal areas were getting hammered in the spring and the interior has been getting hammered now. 

Korea with it's system allowing the government to have more power federally (it use to be dictatorship until 30 years or so ago) and it's experience with MERS in 2015 when another woman was President, allowed a fast initial response this time.  It had little to do with Moon.  But his party got credit and got a big majority in legislative elections temporarily suspending his plummeting approval ratings.  Now they are falling again and covid is spiking including places which were initially safe in the spring outside of Seoul.  Has a lot in common with the US that way. 

The US is the 3rd largest country in the world. It will have high numbers regardless.  China's numbers aren't real.  How many developing countries are testing and reporting accurately also?  Yes, it does suck and I do take it seriously myself.  It is real and it came from a bio lab in Wuhan most likely.  The point is I take responsibility for myself and watch my own ass.  Government nor anyone else will ever have my best interests at heart. 

As for the US, most aren't willing to trade in their freedoms and rights for temporary convenience of control.  The downside is that the feds bureaucracy does seem to bungle things sometimes.  As I understand it, the bird flu of 2009 was screwed up badly by Biden and Obama.  Complete incompetence.  They just got lucky it went away fast.  Had it have gone big like this, folks would have been blaming them too. 

All very true.
Just want to point out that those numbers I posted were per capita ratios.
Also, for a country so invested in rugged individualism, it's only doing middling fair as a democracy - it actually ranks behind South Korea on the World Democracy Index (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index).
That said, I totally agree that ultimately, people are responsible for their own actions. Keep safe!

Not that it would CAUSE a pandemic, but in a pandemic, Korea would do far worse because of certain habits, while covering your mouth while coughing was some great deterrent to disease rather than what I declared it to be- Pretty much a performative gesture. Not to mention every other claim that Koreans are so incompetent they couldn't manage anything and would panic and blah blah blah.
Seriously, all those people who said that crap pre-pandemic should eff off permanently with their opinions on culture and whatnot.
Haters gonna hate. Laugh 'em off: the rest of us know they're just trolling.

That's debatable. Trump could have "listened to the scientists" (whatever that rubbish phrase means) and still gotten an outcome that was the same.

I disagree, but it's pretty hard to prove either way.
I'll just say that history has proven time and time again that it's preferable to act on good scientific data than on hunches and preferences. Not that it necessarily guarantees a happy ending, but...

The Dems and media still would have ripped him to shreds. Trump could have instituted a national mask mandate and people would bitch and moan that he was a dictator and trying to throw poor people in jail or whatever. Obama could have been president and done the exact same things and the media would have proclaimed him a hero and blamed flyover country.
I suspect that you're right. The system is broken: it's a crises that America really needs to make its number one priority. Another American civil war would be a terrible, terrible thing for the rest of us.  :sad:

As far as Asia's numbers being substantially lower, I think that tracing protocols might have some effect, but mostly there's probably a genetic element to it. The tracing protocol here is good, but it's not like the second an outbreak happens they're tracking you down and a frickin CDC team is rolling up like the SWAT van and testing you. I remember when the Itaewon outbreak happened they gave people like, days to show up, during which people were putzing around.
It's certainly possible, and there *is* a historical precedence for that having happened, but without some kind of data I would be very hesitant to support that kind of statement.
Regardless, you'll have to concede that testing and contact tracing is preferable to the lack of either when it comes to containing an outbreak.

Finally "listening to scientists" is one of the dumbest things out there. For starters, it's the kind of thing said by someone who has never been in a leadership position in a large, financially powerful institution. Anyone who has would know that "scientists" are telling leaders to do certain things every day and on top of that the scientists all have different opinions and think they should be running things. And that's just within a discipline. Then you got one kind of scientist saying the other scientists are full of shit because they aren't accounting for Factor X because their science doesn't deal with that. Add in the fact that it's a fog of war situation with incomplete information and well it's not so simple. This isn't like a Chernobyl or some Asteroid heading at the Earth. This is something that you have to listen to a lot of different experts on because it affects a lot of different fields and isn't a single confined object.

Finally, you can tell "leadership" and "listening to scientists" are horseshit points due to the lack of specificity. The vaguer the claim is, the less it is rooted in actual science and actual truth.
Hard disagree.
Listening to a scientific consensus is *always* wiser than ignoring it. I'm sure there are specific events in the past that can be used to claim the opposite, but they are a tiny minority. Data, research, debate, and peer review will beat out political expediency 99.99% of the time.  Anti-science is anti-smart.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: oglop on December 14, 2020, 03:25:53 pm
lol
seriously. where ever you go on the internet it's like you can't ****** avoid US politics

someone should make an app which filters out any webpage which has US politics on it. i'd pay good money for that
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: hippo on December 14, 2020, 05:53:51 pm
seriously. where ever you go on the internet it's like you can't ****** avoid US politics

someone should make an app which filters out any webpage which has US politics on it. i'd pay good money for that

There are programs to filter out keywords.  You just have keep updated what words you want to mute. 

I cannot recommend any because it depends on your setup and privacy concerns.  I agree with your sentiment about US politics since the election is over and there is not much actionable we can do about politics in countries outside of Korea.  And, as an aside, we shouldn't really get very involved in Korean politics though I am eligible to vote in local elections now.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: hippo on December 14, 2020, 05:54:39 pm
Ever read the side effects listed with any random basic medicine? I'm talking about over the counter stuff like pain killers, fever reducers and allergy medication.
There are usually dozens of possible side effects listed from mild: "insomnia" "fatique" "dizziness" etc. to more serious sounding things like "diarrhea" "fever" "headache" ... and towards the end you can often see some real scary shit like: "paralysis" "internal bleeding" and even "death".


But are there any negative side effects?
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on December 14, 2020, 05:59:59 pm
It's certainly possible, and there *is* a historical precedence for that having happened, but without some kind of data I would be very hesitant to support that kind of statement.
Regardless, you'll have to concede that testing and contact tracing is preferable to the lack of either when it comes to containing an outbreak.

Hard disagree.
Listening to a scientific consensus is *always* wiser than ignoring it. I'm sure there are specific events in the past that can be used to claim the opposite, but they are a tiny minority. Data, research, debate, and peer review will beat out political expediency 99.99% of the time.  Anti-science is anti-smart.
I don't know if the US and Europe have the infrastructure for test and trace that Korea does. The degree to which everything revolves around smartphones, Naver, Kakao, phone verification, transit, and phone-based transactions means tracing was already pretty much going on, you just needed all that data centralized.

Of course you listen to scientific opinion, then you listen to the scientific opinion of someone else in the same field that says something different, and then a 3rd scientist. And then you listen to scientists in other fields all make their pitches. And after listening to that mass of experts, each claiming to be the smartest and backed by science, you go with your gut. It's what every human being on Earth does with that amount of data and different points of view.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: tylerthegloob on December 15, 2020, 09:03:45 am
Of course you listen to scientific opinion, then you listen to the scientific opinion of someone else in the same field that says something different, and then a 3rd scientist.
coastal elite chiming in here...
you suggest there are three equally sized groups of scientists saying three different things. if 10 dentists tell me i need a root canal and 1 tells me im all set my "gut" does not join the decision-making process
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on December 15, 2020, 11:24:06 am
coastal elite chiming in here...
you suggest there are three equally sized groups of scientists saying three different things. if 10 dentists tell me i need a root canal and 1 tells me im all set my "gut" does not join the decision-making process
If we go back to the initial panicky days at the start of corona, consensus was not that clear. Projections were all over the place.

This wasn't a situation where scientific opinion was unified. There wasn't even enough data and info to form an actual scientific opinion.

Furthermore, simply because one view is larger than the other does not make that view scientifically true.

And again, this applies to just one branch of science. You still have to account for scientists and experts in different fields.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: tylerthegloob on December 15, 2020, 01:04:48 pm
If we go back to the initial panicky days
we need not go that far back to find people who disagree with (very very) scientific findings.

And again, this applies to just one branch of science. You still have to account for scientists and experts in different fields.
are we talking philosophy of science or denialism in the age of the 'rona? i dont particularly care what neil da grass (blazeit) tyson has to say about the 'rona. i'm sure it's interesting, but i treat his scientific opinion re: the 'rona like i treat my dentist's opinion about dermatology (probably more informed than yours or mine, but not as informed as a dermatologist).
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on December 15, 2020, 01:29:08 pm
we need not go that far back to find people who disagree with (very very) scientific findings.
The opinion of various health officials and experts was all over the place, including recommended measures. Certainly it has moved in a general direction since then (and I'm not talking things like treatments, but broader policy), but we've seen different policies all over the place (which is a good thing, you have to experiment).

Quote
are we talking philosophy of science or denialism in the age of the 'rona? i dont particularly care what neil da grass (blazeit) tyson has to say about the 'rona. i'm sure it's interesting, but i treat his scientific opinion re: the 'rona like i treat my dentist's opinion about dermatology (probably more informed than yours or mine, but not as informed as a dermatologist).
How to deal with Corona is an epidemiological issue. It is also a public health issue. It is also a health care administration issue. It is also a mental health issue. it is also an economic issue. It is also an issue of things like energy, transportation, logistics, agriculture etc.

If an epidemiologist says "We need to completely shut everything down. Now. Total shutdown for 2 months. If we don't, we'll have 500k dead" Do you instantly accept what they have to say? No, you have to consult with other experts and scientists in other fields. That's when someone mentions that completely shutting everything down would wreck the food supply and energy sectors leading to mass starvation, deaths from heat or cold, etc something on the level of 5 million dead. Then the public and mental health officials point out that shutting everything down like that would lead to a wave of suicide and ODs leading to 100k deaths. Then doctors in other fields point out that many patients won't go to the hospital or be able to afford treatment and the number of deaths over time will be 100k. Then a criminal justice expert pipes up that confining all those people could lead to a rash of domestic violence incidents as well as theft which could lead to civil unrest. Then those scientists and experts all start arguing and shouting with each other and forming factions around various proposals. Eventually you get some decision that pleases one group and pisses off another.

And that's why "listening to experts" or "listen to the scientists" is such an empty, hollow thing to say. It doesn't mean anything. You think the Trump administration wasn't listening to scientists and experts? No. They just listened to one faction of scientists and experts and another faction had a different opinion so they'll just accuse whoever made the decision of not listening to scientists. and experts.
Title: Re: Warning about Covid Vaccine.
Post by: tylerthegloob on December 15, 2020, 03:10:57 pm
The opinion of various health officials and experts was all over the place
really missed my point there

And that's why "listening to experts" or "listen to the scientists" is such an empty, hollow thing to say.
but its really not when so many people truly don't listen to the experts. which experts do the anti-vaxxers listen to? very specific scientists (errr... a "faction") for sure. can you really say the vax and anti-vax are both listening to science without relying on some stupidly reductive definitions?