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Symposium => "Open" Discussions => Topic started by: Don Hobak on November 09, 2020, 09:23:25 pm

Title: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Don Hobak on November 09, 2020, 09:23:25 pm
I came back to my family in Korea in early May when it seemed like shit was really hitting the fan in America concerning the coronavirus. At the time I was honestly worried that flights out of the US might suddenly cease running. The idea then was to spend the summer here, then go back to America to finish up by BSN in the fall when all this silly covid business had finally died down, and then bring my family over to live in the condo we bought as soon as I got a nursing job. Well, with the summer came a second wave more furious than the first, and my wife and I decided it was best that I stay here through the fall, do the online-available classes remotely, and then return to America with family in tow to complete the final few classes spring semester, including two days of clinical at a hospital. By then surely the country would have figured out how to get the virus relatively under control. At the time I was also starting to worry about election hijinks (successful coups, failed coups, bloodshed, etc) and thought our new plan would allow us a safe distance to see how that all plays out. In the meantime we went through all the steps and shelled out all the cash to get my wife a visa, which now expires February 21 if weíre not on a plane by then. Luckily, as bad as the election was, the true nightmare scenarios donít look likely at this point ó phew! ó but the coronavirus situation has only become worse and promises to worsen still over the coming winter months.

Which brings me to the topic of the thread. Is it complete insanity to bring my wife and young children out of the relative safety of Korea and into the maw of the beast in America right now (leave in Early January), especially considering the amount of virus exposure Iíll be subject to on clinical days? My wife is already not super looking forward to Wisconsin winters...  :sad:
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: VanIslander on November 09, 2020, 11:03:43 pm
100,000 new infections daily in America.
100 new infections daily in Korea.

Six times more people and a thousand times higher infection rate.

I ain't goin' anywhere any time soon.
This is one thing Korea has done well at.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: L I on November 09, 2020, 11:12:06 pm
Government surveillance and tracking is the reason Korea contained this. That and mask wearing. And less immune system compromising obesity.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: hippo on November 10, 2020, 12:31:22 am
I don't have any answers.

Do you think the US will have COVID-19 under control by January?

 If I remember correctly you also have a daughter.  Is this correct?  If so, how much do we know about the long-term effects of COVID-19 on your daughter?

How about you? Your wife?  Risk factors?

BSN is nursing, right?   You probably know more about this than most here on this forum regarding various certainties and uncertainties. 

Based on what I know (and much moreso my family life), I will be sticking around here.  I would imagine I would be sticking around in Korea for at least a while longer even if I was single.  In addition to the stats cited above, Korea is much more urban than the US, so if everything else was equal, Korea  would be doing a lot worse.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Mr C on November 10, 2020, 07:39:09 am
Government surveillance and tracking is the reason Korea contained this. That and mask wearing. And less immune system compromising obesity.
So what? 
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: OnNut81 on November 10, 2020, 07:51:11 am
100,000 new infections daily in America.
100 new infections daily in Korea.

Six times more people and a thousand times higher infection rate.

I ain't goin' anywhere any time soon.
This is one thing Korea has done well at.

You're talking about discovered infections.  Korea is not doing random testing.  There was no testing done of school staff when P.S. schools reopened.  I can't just go and get a Covid test for peace of mind without symptoms.  Obviously Korea has way more Covid positive cases than are reported found everyday.  It's naive to believe there are less than 100 new cases popping up a day.  Korea has been smart with not cratering their economy over it.  No fever equals no covid?  Nope.  And I'm happy Korea hasn't gone into a blind panic over this. 
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Kayos on November 10, 2020, 07:55:39 am
You're talking about discovered infections.  Korea is not doing random testing.  There was no testing done of school staff when P.S. schools reopened.  I can't just go and get a Covid test for peace of mind without symptoms.  Obviously Korea has way more Covid positive cases than are reported found everyday.  It's naive to believe there are less than 100 new cases popping up a day.  Korea has been smart with not cratering their economy over it.  No fever equals no covid?  Nope.  And I'm happy Korea hasn't gone into a blind panic over this.

About 4 weeks ago, I got a covid test without symptoms and I didn't even get charged for it when it came back negative. :o
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: L I on November 10, 2020, 08:11:24 am
So what?

I'm praising South Korea for their government surveillance, mask wearing, and physical fitness. That was undoubtedly helpful in the fight against COVID-19.

Non elderly folks in good health don't have to worry about the virus, it won't hurt you, but it's good to take steps to help the vulnerable among us.

It's a cold or flu but more contagious. If your immune system is strong you won't feel anything when you get it.

Stay in shape and one could never be sick again. Imagine no more colds or flu. It's possible.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: oglop on November 10, 2020, 08:30:20 am
please L I....just give it a rest
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: thunderlips on November 10, 2020, 08:43:38 am
Short trip over for the wife and kid, then a return flight back to Korea to finish up some business??
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: L I on November 10, 2020, 08:47:08 am
People who get angry when I give health advice are themselves not in good shape. Itís obvious. But just wanted to share my experience about how exercising every day and eating strictly healthy food means NEVER being sick. Iím surprised by the extent of the positive change. Just typing words. Seems silly to be mad and offended / be a crab in the bucket when hearing pertinent information.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: D.L.Orean on November 10, 2020, 08:56:17 am
People who get angry when I give health advice are themselves not in good shape. Itís obvious. But just wanted to share my experience about how exercising every day and eating strictly healthy food means NEVER being sick. Iím surprised by the extent of the positive change. Just typing words. Seems silly to be mad and offended / be a crab in the bucket when hearing pertinent information.

I need a Stossel video to fully understand it
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Lazio on November 10, 2020, 09:00:20 am
You're talking about discovered infections.  Korea is not doing random testing.  There was no testing done of school staff when P.S. schools reopened.  I can't just go and get a Covid test for peace of mind without symptoms.  Obviously Korea has way more Covid positive cases than are reported found everyday.  It's naive to believe there are less than 100 new cases popping up a day.  Korea has been smart with not cratering their economy over it.  No fever equals no covid?  Nope.  And I'm happy Korea hasn't gone into a blind panic over this. 

Like I wrote in another thread: look at the test positivity rates. For the last 2 days it was 10,42% and 7,58% respectively in the USA. In Korea it was 2,53% and 1,99%. There are undetected cases in every country obviously. But a lower positivity rate indicates a lower number of undetected cases.
*edit: Yesterday's numbers came out in Korea, since I wrote the above. Out of 14.761 tests, 100 were positive. That's 0,67%. They do fewer tests during the weekends (5,631 and 6,319 this past weekend). As you can see, the number of tests more than doubled, yet they found less people infected.

Also, when they find a cluster in Korea, a company or school etc ., they test everyone, and their contacts. Whether they have symptoms or not. Yet, they still don't find a lot of positive cases. It's like random testing on a small scale.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Don Hobak on November 10, 2020, 09:18:47 am
I don't have any answers.

Do you think the US will have COVID-19 under control by January?

No way. Likely will be worse than it is currently, as hard as that is to believe.

 If I remember correctly you also have a daughter.  Is this correct?  If so, how much do we know about the long-term effects of COVID-19 on your daughter?

How about you? Your wife?  Risk factors?
I donít think the long term effects are really known for anybody. There are a small number of covid ďlong-haulersĒ whose symptoms linger for weeks to months (to years?), and of course it can do permanent damage to those whom it hits the hardest. Children are the least susceptible group to the virus, and the younger the better. My daughter is only three, so Iím not so much worried about her and the newborn. Thereís a prevalent belief that this coronavirus might be like chickenpox in this regard; generally harmless if infected in childhood, with worsening symptoms the older one is upon initial exposure. Iím more worried that my wife or I might get it, though weíre not particularly vulnerable.

BSN is nursing, right?   You probably know more about this than most here on this forum regarding various certainties and uncertainties. 

Based on what I know (and much moreso my family life), I will be sticking around here.  I would imagine I would be sticking around in Korea for at least a while longer even if I was single.  In addition to the stats cited above, Korea is much more urban than the US, so if everything else was equal, Korea  would be doing a lot worse.

Nursing, right. Iím not looking for anyone to give me an ďanswerĒ so much as to get otherís thoughts. Thank you for sharing yours. And yeah, I know Korea has specific circumstances that make it particularly well-equipped to handle viral epidemics, but the US having legitimate reasons for not faring better doesnít negate any the danger. In fact, it lessens my hope that theyíll be able to make any meaningful headway against the virus until a vaccine is developed and widely available. (Pfizer had something of a breakthrough recently, I know.)
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Don Hobak on November 10, 2020, 09:33:02 am
Short trip over for the wife and kid, then a return flight back to Korea to finish up some business??

Yeah, I suppose thatís a decent backup plan. It would allow us (and her especially), to get some time on the ground and see how we feel about staying there without giving up our visa. Of course thereís a limit on how long we could wait it out in that scenario, but possibly long enough to see some real improvement concerning the virus.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: sammie5460 on November 10, 2020, 10:15:23 am
I just wanted to give my thoughts based on the lingering effects of the virus. From what I've read, the lasting side effects sound a LOT like the symptoms of an autoimmune disease. I am no expert, and even the experts don't have all the answers, so I'm not going to assume COVID gives people an autoimmune disease. However, as someone who has a couple of them and has to live with the symptoms every day, it's not easy, it can be debilitating, and I'd suggest avoiding an increased risk of getting these symptoms, no matter how small it is.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Don Hobak on November 10, 2020, 10:35:27 am
I just wanted to give my thoughts based on the lingering effects of the virus. From what I've read, the lasting side effects sound a LOT like the symptoms of an autoimmune disease. I am no expert, and even the experts don't have all the answers, so I'm not going to assume COVID gives people an autoimmune disease. However, as someone who has a couple of them and has to live with the symptoms every day, it's not easy, it can be debilitating, and I'd suggest avoiding an increased risk of getting these symptoms, no matter how small it is.

Thank you for that. Yeah, I have a history of JIA which makes a severe reaction to the virus more likely, but it has long been in remission (I think?) and Iím not taking and drugs for it. My daughter has rather mild atopic dermatitis that is controlled without much use of medication (some topical hydrocortisone here and there). It seems that those with cardiovascular disease, diabetes, chronic respiratory disease, or cancer are at the highest risk.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: fka on November 10, 2020, 11:20:21 am
Quote
I can't just go and get a Covid test for peace of mind without symptoms

Not sure where you live, but in Seoul you most definitely can do this.

Quote
I just wanted to give my thoughts based on the lingering effects of the virus. From what I've read, the lasting side effects sound a LOT like the symptoms of an autoimmune disease. I am no expert, and even the experts don't have all the answers, so I'm not going to assume COVID gives people an autoimmune disease. However, as someone who has a couple of them and has to live with the symptoms every day, it's not easy, it can be debilitating, and I'd suggest avoiding an increased risk of getting these symptoms, no matter how small it is.

This is true. Someone close to me (42 years old, non-smoker, normal weight, no outstanding health problems) caught COVID-19 and had terrifying symptoms long after the initial fever and headache. Breathing problems, rashes, extreme fatigue, brain fog, etc. The rashes still appear randomly, possibly a result of histamine hypersensitivity caused by mast-cell activation.

Yes, for many people, it may feel like a cold or flu, but downplaying its severity really does the world a massive disservice.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: L I on November 10, 2020, 11:35:34 am
Some who test positive for coronavirus didnít even know they had it. Commonly NOTHING will happen if you catch it. Very healthy people arenít even mildly inconvenienced by it. The infection is neutralized quickly. And the length of being contagious is drastically shortened.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: L I on November 10, 2020, 11:38:02 am
I need a Stossel video to fully understand it

Bill Maher video:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vDaQOy7ML38

Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: oglop on November 10, 2020, 11:49:04 am
Iím right. And youíre triggered. How about you give it a rest? If you have nothing useful or insightful to say, say nothing. (Well, ainít gonna happen, but a man can dream.)
not triggered, bored of hearing a broken record
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Mr C on November 10, 2020, 12:10:28 pm
Iím right. And youíre triggered. How about you give it a rest? If you have nothing useful or insightful to say, say nothing post a John Stossel video.

FIFY
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: 745sticky on November 10, 2020, 12:55:16 pm
Some who test positive for coronavirus didnít even know they had it. Commonly NOTHING will happen if you catch it. Very healthy people arenít even mildly inconvenienced by it. The infection is neutralized quickly. And the length of being contagious is drastically shortened.

Do you have any evidence to back this up, or are you just saying it?

I'm fine accepting that some people don't have severe symptoms, that's perfectly true. But I'm not sure if "Commonly NOTHING will happen if you catch it."
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: tylerthegloob on November 10, 2020, 02:00:01 pm
its not true. my friend and his gf got it and both are otherwise healthy. both had symptoms. there's tons more stories like this. LI is full of it (as usual). i'm not sure why people even respond to claims like that
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: L I on November 10, 2020, 02:08:56 pm
Loads of people who caught coronavirus are / were asymptomatic. And never knew they had it until antibodies showed up on test.

Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: L I on November 10, 2020, 02:21:19 pm
Something about human nature:

Know it alls who donít really know it all (but think they do) will often accuse others of being full of crap when in actuality it is them who doesnít know what they are talking about. (But they sincerely believe it applies to the other person rather than them.) Fools are confident. Itís the DunningĖKruger effect.

Coronavirus: Majority testing positive have no symptoms
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/health-53320155
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: belo horizonte on November 10, 2020, 02:25:49 pm
Like I wrote in another thread: look at the test positivity rates. For the last 2 days it was 10,42% and 7,58% respectively in the USA. In Korea it was 2,53% and 1,99%. There are undetected cases in every country obviously. But a lower positivity rate indicates a lower number of undetected cases

Interesting. Can I ask where you got those testing figures from?

Could it be that the testing or analysis is different for various countries?
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Don Hobak on November 10, 2020, 02:31:47 pm
Asymptomatic transmission is definitely a thing, and a significant one at that. Thatís partly what makes this such a difficult virus to get a handle on.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: tylerthegloob on November 10, 2020, 03:04:41 pm
LI: very healthy people arenít even mildly inconvenienced by coronavirus
me: i know a few very healthy people who were "inconvenienced" by it
LI: you're a know it all. also here's a bbc link from july showing that 22% of people didn't have symptoms on the day of their swab test

uhhh okay dude..? also from the source in that article, 33% (95% confidence interval 25% to 43%, 115 person sample) reported evidence of symptoms before or after their swab test. there are healthy people who are "inconvenienced" by coronavirus and it's thoughtless (perhaps disrespectful? possibly insensitive?) to suggest otherwise
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Lazio on November 10, 2020, 03:05:21 pm
Interesting. Can I ask where you got those testing figures from?

Could it be that the testing or analysis is different for various countries?

Sure:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: 745sticky on November 10, 2020, 03:09:35 pm
Something about human nature:

Know it alls who donít really know it all (but think they do) will often accuse others of being full of crap when in actuality it is them who doesnít know what they are talking about. (But they sincerely believe it applies to the other person rather than them.) Fools are confident. Itís the DunningĖKruger effect.

Well, I'm glad you're at least a little self-aware.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: L I on November 10, 2020, 03:20:45 pm
How ironic. The ďThatís you, not meĒ line. You think  youíre correct, but youíre not.

ďCommonly NOTHING will happen if you catch it." is in fact true. 

22% of people didn't have symptoms

22% had symptoms and 78% were asymptotic.

That means for most people who get coronavirus, nothing happens.

Should I take your word your two friends who experienced symptoms were very healthy? What does that mean? The assessment is subjective. They exercised daily? Didnít drink alcohol?
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: 745sticky on November 10, 2020, 03:31:34 pm
How ironic. The ďThatís you, not meĒ line. You think  youíre correct, but youíre not.

How ironic. The ďThatís you, not meĒ line. You think  youíre correct, but youíre not.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: L I on November 10, 2020, 03:35:39 pm
Your ability to articulate a cogent thought is amazing! Weíre learning so much from this exchange! Thank you for your wisdom and knowledge! So many good statistics!
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: fka on November 10, 2020, 03:50:29 pm
It takes a special kind of sociopath to read an artlicle about the prevalence of asymptomatic transmission and think, "It's fine. Nothing will happen to me because I'm not fat."
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: hippo on November 10, 2020, 04:01:42 pm
Something about human nature:

Know it alls who donít really know it all (but think they do) will often accuse others of being full of crap when in actuality it is them who doesnít know what they are talking about. (But they sincerely believe it applies to the other person rather than them.) Fools are confident. Itís the DunningĖKruger effect.

Coronavirus: Majority testing positive have no symptoms
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/health-53320155


Please explain the long-term consequences from COVID-19 using peer-reviewed articles without referring to videos. 

Insofar as I can tell, virologists, medical professionals, and other scientists do not fully understand the longterm consequences of the disease, so I am certainly not going to claim I know a lot about it.  As far as I can understand, scientists do not even fully understand the full impact of "regular" viruses in terms of their impact decades later because of possible DNA mutations and the like.

I congratulate you on your upcoming Nobel Prize.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: oglop on November 10, 2020, 05:10:55 pm
It takes a special kind of sociopath to read an artlicle about the prevalence of asymptomatic transmission and think, "It's fine. Nothing will happen to me because I'm not fat."
guys just don't be fat, drink alcohol, eat any unhealthy food ever, be old, be sick, have any underlying health conditions, or catch covid and you won't die of covid. it's really pretty simple
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Mr C on November 10, 2020, 09:36:58 pm
It takes a special kind of sociopath to read an artlicle about the prevalence of asymptomatic transmission and think, "It's fine. Nothing will happen to me because I'm not fat."
I won't go so far as "sociopath" but he lacks any kind of empathy we expect of people in the humanistic professions, like, say, teaching. 
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: tylerthegloob on November 11, 2020, 07:37:00 am
22% had symptoms and 78% were asymptotic.

22% had (self-reported) symptoms on that specific day. 25-43% had (self-reported) symptoms before or after their test. the data may have been affected by false positives (who wouldn't have symptoms) and people not reporting/not being aware of their own symptoms. but uhhh yeah hug that number because it proves your point... sort of?
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Don Hobak on November 11, 2020, 08:48:22 am
Itís estimated that about 20% of people who contract coronavirus are completely asymptomatic.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Don Hobak on November 11, 2020, 04:00:20 pm
It takes a special kind of sociopath to read an artlicle about the prevalence of asymptomatic transmission and think, "It's fine. Nothing will happen to me because I'm not fat."

Funny enough, this morningís episode of GoGo Dino taught my daughter how to fat-shame a pudgy allosaurus  :undecided:
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: hippo on November 11, 2020, 05:54:14 pm
Itís estimated that about 20% of people who contract coronavirus are completely asymptomatic.

I am curious about that statistic.  Asymptomatic just means they donít recognize any symptoms, right? 

One of the things I am curious about is potential long-term effects of disease that are not immediately apparent.  There is already so much focus on the deaths and severe illnesses (and denial or downplaying of them).  But there isófor I think good reasonómore focus on the more severe cases.  I am curious to find out if there are any long term symptoms in people who had no symptoms or thought the symptoms were something else because they were so mild.

It is perhaps the least most concerning result of the pandemic for the time being, but the past year has made me more curious about the long term effects of diseases.  Just curious about this more than extremely concerned to be clear.

RIP Aaron Swartz who tried to liberate journal articles from publishers who donít pay their authors.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Don Hobak on November 11, 2020, 09:26:27 pm
I am curious about that statistic.  Asymptomatic just means they donít recognize any symptoms, right? 

One of the things I am curious about is potential long-term effects of disease that are not immediately apparent.  There is already so much focus on the deaths and severe illnesses (and denial or downplaying of them).  But there isófor I think good reasonómore focus on the more severe cases.  I am curious to find out if there are any long term symptoms in people who had no symptoms or thought the symptoms were something else because they were so mild.

It is perhaps the least most concerning result of the pandemic for the time being, but the past year has made me more curious about the long term effects of diseases.  Just curious about this more than extremely concerned to be clear.

RIP Aaron Swartz who tried to liberate journal articles from publishers who donít pay their authors.

I mean, Iím just looking at Healthline lol, but hereís an interesting study using information gathered from the occupants of the Diamond Princess ship early in the onset of this pandemic. https://med.stanford.edu/content/dam/sm/id/documents/COVID/AsymptCOVID_TransmissionShip.pdf

Since itís very hard/highly unethical to conduct human experiments with a highly contagious and potentially lethal virus, naturally arising, contained situations like these often offer the closest approximation researchers can get to an experimental study. This pegs the asymptomatic infection rate at about 17.9%.

Yes, asymptomatic means that they donít exhibit any symptoms of illness while infected, but as this is likely going to be self-reported and after the fact, perhaps with some people there were in fact subtle symptoms like an itchy throat that the infectee shrugged off as seasonal allergies rather than attributing it to the virus.

My understanding is that the less severe the symptoms, the less likely you are to spread it and the less chance you would have of exhibiting any long term effects. This would have a lot to do with your viral load. Long term effects of the virus canít be known yet because the virus just hasnít been around for that long. Of course people who sustain irreparable damage to their lungs are going to have chronic respiratory issues going forward, and likewise any cardiovascular damage attributable to the virus could lead to chronic conditions as well. A lot of that is probably going to depend how the virus interacts with an individualís underlying health issues and vulnerabilities. Iím no virologist (!) but I donít think thereís anybody saying that this is the type of virus that stays dormant in your body like, say, herpes does in our nervous system, but perhaps thatís whatís happening with these few cases of ďlong-haulersĒ that I mentioned earlier. But yeah, ultimately weíre not going to know about long term effects of the virus until long term effects start to be reported, which may take a long time. :lipsrsealed:
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: JNM on November 12, 2020, 02:27:17 am
I heard one story a few months ago out of the UK that some people had no symptoms, but ended up with permanent scarring of the lungs, and all the complications that go with that.

Could somebody explain to me how scarring of the lungs is not a symptom?

My point is that when you have 1000s of authorities trying to make rules and vocabulary for something like this there are bound to be inconsistencies. Any attempt at standardizing ends up as 1000s+1.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: gogators! on November 12, 2020, 04:34:20 am
Yes, it would be insane.

 I'm in the US. I work from home. I go to the grocery store once a week. I pick up restaurant take-out once or twice a week. I go to Lowe's every couple of weeks for home project supplies. I ride my bike.  I social distance and so have to almost yell at my older hard of hearing neighbors. This is without a mask on.

In stores, etc. I always wear a mask and afterwards am constantly washing my hands.

In my area, most people are wearing masks. But in the two surrounding (red) counties where I sometimes ride my bike, I'll go in a convenience store and none of the employees, much less the customers, are wearing masks.

Infections and deaths are going up pretty much every day now.

This is a disease that has killed 1.28 million people and isn't slowing down. In the words of Dirty Harry, "So you have to ask yourself, punk, do you feel lucky?"


Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: gogators! on November 12, 2020, 04:36:46 am
Some who test positive for coronavirus didnít even know they had it. Commonly NOTHING will happen if you catch it. Very healthy people arenít even mildly inconvenienced by it. The infection is neutralized quickly. And the length of being contagious is drastically shortened.
Could you post a scan of your medical license?
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Kyndo on November 12, 2020, 07:32:20 am
I heard one story a few months ago out of the UK that some people had no symptoms, but ended up with permanent scarring of the lungs, and all the complications that go with that.

Could somebody explain to me how scarring of the lungs is not a symptom?

My point is that when you have 1000s of authorities trying to make rules and vocabulary for something like this there are bound to be inconsistencies. Any attempt at standardizing ends up as 1000s+1.
Often "symptomatic" is conflated with "noticeably symptomatic".
I have a good friend who suffered cascading organ failure a few years ago. In retrospect, there were a few symptoms in the months leading up to it, but 100% certainly there was something deeply wrong for the previous few years that just went entirely unnoticed.

   Scarring of the lungs can have symptoms as mild as slightly decreased lung capacity, which can go completely unnoticed, especially if one isn't particularly physically active.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Mr C on November 12, 2020, 08:29:38 am
Could you post a scan of your medical license?
(JK)
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Don Hobak on November 12, 2020, 09:30:14 am
Yes, it would be insane.

 I'm in the US. I work from home. I go to the grocery store once a week. I pick up restaurant take-out once or twice a week. I go to Lowe's every couple of weeks for home project supplies. I ride my bike.  I social distance and so have to almost yell at my older hard of hearing neighbors. This is without a mask on.

In stores, etc. I always wear a mask and afterwards am constantly washing my hands.

In my area, most people are wearing masks. But in the two surrounding (red) counties where I sometimes ride my bike, I'll go in a convenience store and none of the employees, much less the customers, are wearing masks.

Infections and deaths are going up pretty much every day now.

This is a disease that has killed 1.28 million people and isn't slowing down. In the words of Dirty Harry, "So you have to ask yourself, punk, do you feel lucky?"

Thank you for this. Sounds like youíre making it work despite the insane-making circumstances.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on November 12, 2020, 10:11:21 am
Yes, it would be insane.

 I'm in the US. I work from home. I go to the grocery store once a week. I pick up restaurant take-out once or twice a week. I go to Lowe's every couple of weeks for home project supplies. I ride my bike.  I social distance and so have to almost yell at my older hard of hearing neighbors. This is without a mask on.

In stores, etc. I always wear a mask and afterwards am constantly washing my hands.

In my area, most people are wearing masks. But in the two surrounding (red) counties where I sometimes ride my bike, I'll go in a convenience store and none of the employees, much less the customers, are wearing masks.

Infections and deaths are going up pretty much every day now.

This is a disease that has killed 1.28 million people and isn't slowing down. In the words of Dirty Harry, "So you have to ask yourself, punk, do you feel lucky?"



Actually, luck (something that goes against probability) would be you getting the disease (lucky for the virus) and then dying from it (lucky for death). You not getting the disease and not dying would be the routine outcome.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Kyndo on November 12, 2020, 10:34:36 am
Unless the majority of people have good luck, in which case you need to be lucky.
Dirty Harry really ought to have said "Luckier", as luck is always relative.
"So you have to ask yourself, punk, do you feel luckier?"
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Foreverparadise on November 12, 2020, 03:37:41 pm
You would be crazy to leave Korea and head back to where the highest number of COVID-19 are.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: L I on November 12, 2020, 03:56:15 pm
On a deaths per capita basis America's not even in the top ten. (The U.K. is though.)
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Kyndo on November 12, 2020, 04:06:16 pm
On a deaths per capita basis America's not even in the top ten. (The U.K. is though.)
True.
But!
Currently, the USA is at number 11 and catching up: Covid19 deaths in the USA are accelerating, while plateauing in most of the top 10.
Still, the change in leadership and resulting changes in how Covid19 is dealt with might mitigate the current trend. Here's to hoping that the USA stays out of this particular top 10!
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Lazio on November 12, 2020, 07:21:02 pm
On a deaths per capita basis America's not even in the top ten. (The U.K. is though.)

Actually, not true.
USA currently number 10
UK number 12
The USA will likely get several positions ahead in the next week or two as the number of cases are increasing there and so are the fatalities. Also the difference between the current number 6  (Brazil) and the USA is really small.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: L I on November 12, 2020, 07:49:03 pm
Where are you getting those figures?

These stats (updated today) show the USA at #12 and the UK at #9: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: fka on November 12, 2020, 07:50:47 pm
That's true, the US is ahead of the UK at number 10 now. San Marino and Andorra (numbers 1 and 4, respectively) are anomalies because of their tiny population sizes, so they can basically be disregarded. Among countries with populations over 50m, only Brazil is doing worse (although how deaths are recorded probably plays a large role here - one can imagine that there are plenty of deaths in India, Mexico, Colombia, etc. that aren't recorded as COVID).
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: fka on November 12, 2020, 07:51:11 pm
Where are you getting those figures?

These stats (updated today) show the USA at #12 and the UK at #9: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: L I on November 12, 2020, 07:57:49 pm
Both of those sites were updated today, so whose statistics should we more trust, and why?
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Don Hobak on November 12, 2020, 09:32:36 pm
ďWisconsin hurtling toward 'tipping point' when hospitals won't be able to save everyone who is sick, health officials warnĒ

www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/11/11/covid-19-cases-put-wisconsin-hospitals-close-tipping-point/6253922002/

Iím guessing my state isnít alone in this.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Amswein1 on November 12, 2020, 11:41:05 pm
In all honesty things are not looking good for America right now. They have NO grip on the virus, and now with a new president who actually wants to do something about, it will take time as he has a lot of catching up to do.
And I will tell you a brutal truth. America will most likely hit an even worse economic down turn come mid 2021.

America still has a shortage of PPE, and with everything that has happened (the elections, the riots, the protests, and natural disasters...) They will be seeing an even higher surge in cases.

They haven't been checking people flying in internationally, they don't enforce quarantine or self isolation, schools are an absolute spreading ground,  and medical care is a joke.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: hippo on November 13, 2020, 12:19:05 am
Another relative of mine just got it.  I just finished talking to her.  They had one week off before they had to return to work.  Not even two full weeks.   Not that it matters, but they are not at an essential job.  Also, they work around tons of other people.  They can't work from home.  They're on an assembly line.  And other people have had it at their workplace.  On top of that, because of shitty worker protection laws and lack of a union, she had to use some of her vacation time to get more time off.  She is still feeling sick.

She has consistently told me she always wears a mask around other people.  If you are in a factory, there is still going to be plenty of exposure even with a mask.  She cannot spend time with her grandchildren.  Some of my other relatives have had to quarantine because they have been around her and presumably some of her friends have had to as well though I did not ask.  I mainly just listened. 

My other relatives all tested negative, but the tests are not 100% effective, as I am sure you know.  They told me it took a long time to get results.  They need to talk about the speed at which they are returning test results in addition to the questionable talking points about the number of tests the US doing.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: gogators! on November 13, 2020, 03:11:47 am
They're using containers for storing dead bodies in Texas.

But according to LI, it's all good.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: L I on November 13, 2020, 06:11:20 am
Itís not good. Itís sad. Best for people to strengthen their immune system to increase their chance of survival. How many are doing that though? Not many because they think all they could do to protect themselves is wear a mask and stay away from others, not knowing that going outside to get sunlight will help their vitamin d deficiency. The better health, the less affected by coronavirus one will be. Yes, health weakens with age, but there is still much that can be done to mitigate the inexorable decline.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: oglop on November 13, 2020, 06:25:01 am
beep bop superioritycomplex. exe loading
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: stoat on November 13, 2020, 06:34:10 am
He's making a fair point. Doctors in the UK have been telling people to lose weight to reduce their chances of dying from COVID.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: gogators! on November 13, 2020, 07:05:20 am
Itís not good. Itís sad. Best for people to strengthen their immune system to increase their chance of survival. How many are doing that though? Not many because they think all they could do to protect themselves is wear a mask and stay away from others, not knowing that going outside to get sunlight will help their vitamin d deficiency. The better health, the less affected by coronavirus one will be. Yes, health weakens with age, but there is still much that can be done to mitigate the inexorable decline.
But what about the decline of one's mental faculties? Maybe you should look into that.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: oglop on November 13, 2020, 08:25:34 am
He's making a fair point. Doctors in the UK have been telling people to lose weight to reduce their chances of dying from COVID.
yes but he's said the same thing in 4489325689425789 other comments
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Don Hobak on November 13, 2020, 09:01:45 am
yes but he's said the same thing in 4489325689425789 other comments

Thatís just it. Everyone is aware that being overweight is generally unhealthy and itís no surprise to anyone that obesity is associated with higher rates of morbidity and mortality. Covid just adds one more to the list. Also, anyone who can do simple arithmetic understands that the more calories you eat, the more weight you will gain. Most people do not want to be overweight, including overweight people, so if beating the obesity epidemic were as simple as eating less, it would have been won by now. Likewise, if fat-shaming were an effective obesity-fighting tool, obesity would have been long vanquished. If no one wants to be obese, everyone knows that excess calorie intake leads to obesity, and yet there is still obesity, you have to figure there are other factors at play here beyond the individual choice to engorge oneself,  cultural and systemic factors that work against the urge everyone has to maintain a healthy weight. Lifer, if you really want to help people lose weight and be healthy, you should start a campaign against Santa Claus for creating an unattainable cultural archetype of a contented fat person. He has very little to ďho ho hoĒ about as he would have died long ago of heart failure.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: oglop on November 13, 2020, 09:15:02 am
everyone knows eating unhealthy food makes you fat, that drinking alcohol isn't healthy, that getting enough sun is healthy, exercising regularly is good, or that living in a polluted city like seoul isn't as good as living somewhere with clean air.

these things don't need to be repeated over and over. this is all obvious. constantly "informing" people about these things just makes you look like a smug prick

"look at this moron drinking a beer. DOESN'T HE KNOW BEER IS UNHEALTHY AND KILLS BRAIN CELLS? WHAT AN IDIOT FOR DOING SUCH A THING"
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: stoat on November 13, 2020, 09:30:25 am
Quote
   
these things don't need to be repeated over and over

Unfortunately, as long as there's a body positivity movement going on, they probably do. Also i can bet there's a whole load of obese people here and in the States who are unaware of , or choose to deny any connection between their weight and increased vulnerability to Covid That's just the way a lot of people are. But I agree, it doesn't have to be Li bot doing it. Wasn't he the one who kept going on about pollution all the time? I guess the silence on that topic is one benefit of Covid.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: VanIslander on November 13, 2020, 10:37:06 am
everyone knows eating unhealthy food makes you fat, that drinking alcohol isn't healthy, that getting enough sun is healthy, exercising regularly is good, or that living in a polluted city like seoul isn't as good as living somewhere with clean air.

these things don't need to be repeated over and over. this is all obvious.
1. What is unhealthy food? Tons of people think chicken (baked or boiled, lean, not fried) and eggs are healthy kinds of food. The science doesn't support it. There is a clear dose-dependent linear relationship between egg consumption and mortality. Yet, with alcohol, there is a j-curve relationship (due in part to the reduction in coronary disease deaths and blockage-type strokes with 1-2 alcoholic drinks per day consumption.

2. Do many people really realize the importance of sun exposure? The fear over skin cancer is overblown in the West, and skin color is to be ideally pale in the East. Heck, the science shows the best time to get sunlight is midday (because the ratio of good UV rays to bad UV rays is best). Be outside for 30-60 minutes at noon rather than 2.hours of weaker exposure in early mornings and late afternoons. Also, people covet windows with bright "natural light" yet glass repels the good UV light but admits the bad UV.

3. Running is a relatively unhealthy form of exercise. Scientific studies.of marathoners, joggers and athletes show increased risks of cardiac arrest, independent of weight or activity level.

4. Air pollution. Yeah that is bad but do most people realize the heart attack and stroke risk of living near a busy road?

5. "Everyone knows" squat.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Aristocrat on November 13, 2020, 10:59:57 am
3. Running is a relatively unhealthy form of exercise. Scientific studies.of marathoners, joggers and athletes show increased risks of cardiac arrest, independent of weight or activity level.

Would love a link to the study that corroborates this rubbish claim.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: oglop on November 13, 2020, 11:05:47 am
1. What is unhealthy food? Tons of people think chicken (baked or boiled, lean, not fried) and eggs are healthy kinds of food. The science doesn't support it. There is a clear dose-dependent linear relationship between egg consumption and mortality. Yet, with alcohol, there is a j-curve relationship (due in part to the reduction in coronary disease deaths and blockage-type strokes with 1-2 alcoholic drinks per day consumption.

2. Do many people really realize the importance of sun exposure? The fear over skin cancer is overblown in the West, and skin color is to be ideally pale in the East. Heck, the science shows the best time to get sunlight is midday (because the ratio of good UV rays to bad UV rays is best). Be outside for 30-60 minutes at noon rather than 2.hours of weaker exposure in early mornings and late afternoons. Also, people covet windows with bright "natural light" yet glass repels the good UV light but admits the bad UV.

3. Running is a relatively unhealthy form of exercise. Scientific studies.of marathoners, joggers and athletes show increased risks of cardiac arrest, independent of weight or activity level.

4. Air pollution. Yeah that is bad but do most people realize the heart attack and stroke risk of living near a busy road?

5. "Everyone knows" squat.
1. quite obviously i was referring to excessively eating mcdonalds or pizza.
2. true but i'm pretty sure most educated people know you need vitamin d
3. utter tripe
4. not sure what your point is
5. ironic, seeing as your post is full of nonsense itself
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Lazio on November 13, 2020, 11:08:20 am
1. What is unhealthy food? Tons of people think chicken (baked or boiled, lean, not fried) and eggs are healthy kinds of food. The science doesn't support it. There is a clear dose-dependent linear relationship between egg consumption and mortality. Yet, with alcohol, there is a j-curve relationship (due in part to the reduction in coronary disease deaths and blockage-type strokes with 1-2 alcoholic drinks per day consumption.

It's like LI with the obesity. We get it, you have a chicken phobia.

Guess what: nothing is healthy if you consume tons of it...


I lost a Korean friend because I cited a scientific study that showed a dose-dependent relationship between egg consumption and mortality.




Same to the scientific research which shows a dose-dependent direct correlation between egg consumption and mortality.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Don Hobak on November 13, 2020, 11:12:30 am
Unfortunately, as long as there's a body positivity movement going on, they probably do.

Of course! I knew the PC liberal elite must have been behind the obesity epidemic somehow  ;D
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: oglop on November 13, 2020, 11:47:43 am
Unfortunately, as long as there's a body positivity movement going on, they probably do.
not on the same website, in the same threads, by the same person. that's my only real gripe.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Aristocrat on November 13, 2020, 11:57:57 am
Unfortunately, as long as there's a body positivity movement going on, they probably do.

This is what happens when someone watches too many SJW bashing Youtubers, you begin to believe that 'body positivity', 'militant feminism', 'flat-earthers', 'gender identity activists' etc. make up the majority of society. These people are a very loud, but very tiny minority. Content creators milk the crap out of these issues because people love to watch stupid people as it gives them a sense of superiority.

The real world is actually pretty mellow. The vast majority of women aren't going to call the cops on you for saying "Good morning." and the body positivity isn't even remotely responsible for the obesity issues.

People are obese because they have an eating disorder, that's it.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Mr C on November 13, 2020, 12:12:55 pm
everyone knows eating unhealthy food makes you fat, that drinking alcohol isn't healthy, that getting enough sun is healthy, exercising regularly is good, or that living in a polluted city like seoul isn't as good as living somewhere with clean air.

these things don't need to be repeated over and over. this is all obvious. constantly "informing" people about these things just makes you look like a smug prick

FIFY
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Kyndo on November 13, 2020, 12:15:05 pm
People are obese because they have an eating disorder, that's it.
For the majority of obese folk that might be accurate, but it's also a gross over-simplification.
Hypothyroidism, diabetes, leptin deficiency, and a myriad of genetic disorders can affect one's weight, as can various anti-depressants, contraceptives, anticonvulsants, blood-pressure medications etc.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: 745sticky on November 13, 2020, 12:19:05 pm
Unfortunately, as long as there's a body positivity movement going on, they probably do.

The body positivity movement is a few people who were already fat anyways coping. Admittedly I've seen some pretty cringe shit from them but even when they do break onto mainstream news its usually as the resident laughingstock.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Don Hobak on November 13, 2020, 12:38:57 pm
The body positivity movement is a few people who were already fat anyways coping. Admittedly I've seen some pretty cringe shit from them but even when they do break onto mainstream news its usually as the resident laughingstock.

Nothing funnier than an overweight person trying not to internalize the hate and scorn that society feeds them.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: 745sticky on November 13, 2020, 12:45:15 pm
Nothing funnier than an overweight person trying not to internalize the hate and scorn that society feeds them.

Paul Blart: Mall Cop grossed like 180 mill so society in general seems to agree
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Aristocrat on November 13, 2020, 12:59:33 pm
For the majority of obese folk that might be accurate, but it's also a gross over-simplification.
Hypothyroidism, diabetes, leptin deficiency, and a myriad of genetic disorders can affect one's weight, as can various anti-depressants, contraceptives, anticonvulsants, blood-pressure medications etc.

Sure, but I wouldn't call it a gross over-simplification.

I'm talking about the result of an individual's choices and the obesity crisis. With many medical conditions, people have a more difficult time controlling their weight and as you said, this accounts for a small minority of obese people and does not significantly contribute to, or explain, the obesity crises around the globe.

My point is that the obesity crisis is caused by eating disorders and/or poor choices. Obesity related to hypothyroidism or leptin deficiency isn't the reason that nearly 40% of Americans are obese.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Kyndo on November 13, 2020, 01:05:21 pm
No, you're right: I also believe that eating disorders of one sort or another are responsible for the majority of the world's obesity.
However, I think that there are a lot of complexities that are lost when summed up so simply.
There was another thread that looked at how socio-economic conditions can play an important role in one's weight, as might genetics, etc etc.
By saying it's all up to an individuals poor choices is ignoring a lot of important factors that strongly influence and exacerbate those poor choices.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Don Hobak on November 13, 2020, 08:53:39 pm
ďLeave Fat Kids AloneĒ
www.nytimes.com/2020/11/13/opinion/childhood-obesity-health.html

Quote
I was in the fourth grade, sitting in a doctorís office, the first time my face flushed with shame. I was, I had just learned, overweight.

I will remember the pediatricianís words forever: Itís probably from eating all that pizza and ice cream. It tastes good, doesnít it? But it makes your body big and fat.

I felt my face sear with shame.

There was more: Just imagine that your body is made out of clay. If you can just stay the same weight, as you grow, youíll stretch out. And once you grow up, youíll be thin and beautiful. Wonít that be great?

I learned so much in that one moment: Youíre not beautiful. Youíre indulging too much. Your body is wrong. You must have done it. Iíd failed a test I didnít even know Iíd taken, and the sense of failure and self-loathing it inspired planted the seeds of a depression I would live with for many years.

...I worry about...children... who...endure similar remarks, the kind that shatter their confidence, reject their bodies and usher them into a harsh new world of judgment.

For the rest of my childhood, I weathered the storm of conversations like the one I had at the doctorís office. Well-meaning, supportive adults eagerly pointed out my perceived failings at every turn.

...

My life was filled with self-flagellation, forced performances to display my commitment to changing an unacceptable body. Adults asked openly about what I had eaten, when I had exercised and whether I knew how to do either correctly. After all, if I was still fat, it must be my fault.

My body wasnít just a body, the way a thinner one might have been. It was perceived as a burden, an inconvenience, a bothersome problem to solve. Only thinness would allow me to forget my body, but despite my best efforts, thinness never came.

The more I and others tried to change my size, the deeper my depression became. Even at such a young age, I had been declared an enemy combatant in the nationís war on childhood obesity, and I felt that fact deeply. Bodies like mine now represented an epidemic, and we were its virus, personified.

...

The war on childhood obesity reached its zenith with the 2010 introduction of the national ďLetís Move!Ē campaign, ďdedicated to solving the problem of obesity within a generation.Ē It was a campaign against ďchildhood obesityĒ ó not specific health conditions or the behaviors that may contribute to those health conditions. It wasnít a campaign against foods with little nutritional value, nor against the unchecked poverty that called for such low-cost, shelf-stable foods. It was a campaign against a body type ó specifically, childrenís body types.

In 2012 Georgia began its Strong4Life campaign aimed at reducing...childhoo d obesity...[T]he billboards targeted fatness in children. Somber black-and-white photographs of fat children stared at viewers, emblazoned with bold text. ďWARNING: My fat may be funny to you but itís killing me. Stop childhood obesity.Ē ďWARNING: Fat prevention begins at home. And the buffet line.Ē ďWARNING: Big bones didnít make me this way. Big meals did.Ē

The billboards purported to warn parents of the danger of childhood fatness, but to many they appeared to be public ridicule of fat kids. Strong4Life became one of the nationís highest-profile fat-shaming campaigns ó and its targets were children.

...

Overwhelmingly, childhood anti-obesity programs hinged on shame and fear, a scared-straight approach for fat children. As of 2017, fully half of the states required that schools track studentsí body mass index. Many require ďBMI report cardsĒ to be sent home to parents...And observational studies...have shown that the practice of parental notification doesnít appear to lead to individual weight loss... One eating disorder treatment center called the report cards a ďpathway to weight stigmaĒ that would most likely contribute to development of eating disorders in predisposed students.

Experiencing weight stigma has significant long-term effects, too. A 2012 study in the journal Obesity asked fat adults to indicate how often they had experienced various weight-stigmatizing events. Seventy-four percent of women and 70 percent of men of similar BMI and age reported othersí making negative assumptions. Twenty-eight percent of women and 23 percent of men reported job discrimination. For various of the subcategory, the effects of stigma were especially dire for young people, very fat people and those who started dieting early in life. To cope, 79 percent of all respondents reported eating, 74 percent isolated themselves, and 41 percent left the situation or avoided it in the future. Rather than motivating fat people to lose weight, weight stigma had led to more isolation, more avoidance, and less support.

Despite ample federal and state funding, multiple national public health campaigns and a slew of television shows, the war on obesity does not appear to be lowering Americansí BMIs. According to the Centers for Disease Control, since 1999 there has been a 39 percent increase in adult obesity and a 33.1 percent increase in obesity among children.

Weight stigma kick-starts what for many will become lifelong cycles of shame. And it sends a clear, heartbreaking message to fat children: The world would be a better place without you in it.

Yet, despite its demonstrated ineffectiveness, the so-called war on childhood obesity rages on... [F]or the sake of children who are told Youíre not beautiful. Youíre indulging too much. Your body is wrong. You must have done it, I hope some...will declare a cease-fire.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: stoat on November 14, 2020, 09:22:04 am
Agreed. They should be educating/shaming the parents, not the kids.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: chimp on November 14, 2020, 01:22:20 pm
De choices de choices... God what a sanctimonious and boorish take on the situation.

Cheap mass-produced food provided to an animal primed to eat when it can. Corpulence is to be expected. Not everyone can govern themselves as well as us fit ones (there but for the grace of etc).

From what I see, fatness is just another stick for nasty people to beat people they don't approve of or who struggle with self-control. If a person is that bothered by gluttony don't ****** "shame" the poor lardass, be a decent person instead and be a small part of a world with at least a tiny little shred of humanity that doesn't drive people to such dysfunctionality on the one hand, or be a useful idiot for a culture that connives in stupidity and excess on the other.

When all is said and done, lecturing these people, clucking over "choices", or shaming them does nothing except make the blowhard feel superior.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on November 15, 2020, 01:39:21 pm
The problem with "eating disorder" is that it is overly broad. It can range from minor delays in feeling full to severe glandular issues and the degree to which one has control and responsibility varies significantly.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: VanIslander on November 15, 2020, 03:01:12 pm
Poor people often lack satiating food. They live in food deserts where their options are unsatisfying, less nutritious, less fibre items. Scientists have been studying satiety, the satisfaction point, when the body tells you it has what it needs. Kids eat dirt to get minerals. Eating a loaf of white bread gives 1000 calories but is unsatisfying, leaving the person hungry a couple of hours later. Minerals, vitamins and fibre in more expensive fresh fruit and vegetables makes the body signal "Enough!" waaay earlier than the SAD diet (Standard American Diet).
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Don Hobak on November 15, 2020, 07:20:23 pm
So it *is* insane to go back to America, but mostly because I would be consigning my wife and children to a (shortened) lifetime of obesity, and all the shame and derision that come with it, unless we end up among the lucky(er) ones who somehow manage to stay out of that 40%-large demographic?
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: gogators! on November 15, 2020, 08:05:14 pm
I recently met a guy who weighs 336 lbs, down from 377 from bike riding. The doctor told him he was at risk of heart disease--shrugged it off--at risk of diabetes--shrugged it off--at risk of losing his ability to perform in bed--went out and bought a bike.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: waygo0k on November 16, 2020, 08:46:27 am
Is it insane to leave Korea right now?

Yes...it is insane to leave one of the world's few safe havens, unless you're going to another safe haven like NZ, Canada or similar.

I just left the UK. Couldn't be more relieved to be out of that complete shithole the country currently is re covid. Twas fantastic seeing and spending time with family, but that was about it. Nothing else felt good or safe in London specifically.

The country is currently collapsing in on itself economically and politically...and nobody knows what to do because the British population voted possibly the most incompetent and corrupt leadership in the history of the country back in December.

The government is forcing schools to remain open and aren't even providing masks for teachers or students. Universities were forced to open so they could collect fees from students...then said students were locked in their accommodation and forced to do online classes as cases within said accommodations sky rocketed.

The government semi-forced businesses to stay open in August by offering what we're essentially bribes to businesses and customers...and now covid cases are going through the roof.

They allowed people to go on vacation around Europe and bring the virus back...and set up zero restrictions on anyone arriving from abroad. You could basically walk from the plane onto public transport with zero issues.

Buses and trains full of maskless pupils at the end of each school day...all doing what teenagers usually do - be loud, rowdy and physical with each other.

Millions have already lost employment and millions more are about to be laid off with no reprieve in sight.

Oh yeah, and Brexit.

So, OP...unless you're from and returning to one of the few countries that is currently functioning at close to normal, I'd suggest spending at least another year in Korea.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Aristocrat on November 16, 2020, 11:57:34 am
Poor people often lack satiating food. They live in food deserts where their options are unsatisfying, less nutritious, less fibre items. Scientists have been studying satiety, the satisfaction point, when the body tells you it has what it needs. Kids eat dirt to get minerals. Eating a loaf of white bread gives 1000 calories but is unsatisfying, leaving the person hungry a couple of hours later. Minerals, vitamins and fibre in more expensive fresh fruit and vegetables makes the body signal "Enough!" waaay earlier than the SAD diet (Standard American Diet).

100% true. Sub-economic residential areas in the US have a more difficult time getting unprocessed food. What your body needs and what you crave aren't always the same and it's possible to screw things up if you constantly eat junk food.

This does tie in with my argument that eating disorders are to blame. As Dmart said, eating disorders manifest in many, many different ways, but chief if which (as far as I'm concerned) start in the mind. People eat when they're bored, sad, happy etc. instead of only eating when they're hungry. There are also plenty of people living within a reasonable distance of a store that sells fruit and vegetables at decent prices yet, they go straight for the Oreos.

I get that living in a food dessert is inconvenient, but honestly, I think the "food dessert" metaphor is quite the hyperbole. My family didn't live near a supermarket. We bought our vegetable once a week, blanched them and froze them. We ate vegetables every day.

I get that you can blame the 'food dessert' thing if you notice that you start putting on a bit of weight, but seriously... you're over 200kg! At what point did you realize your weight is a problem, at what point do you decide to watch what you eat and at what point are you responsible for what you put in your mouth? Lack of education? Sure, but if you realize you can no longer see your junk then perhaps you could educate yourself to find out what you can do to fix the problem.

My wife and I share a strange fascination with watching these shows on extreme obesity and weight loss. When these obese people discuss how they reached their weight, it ALWAYS begins with some kind of traumatic event that happened in their past whether it was sexual abuse, bullying, abandonment, loss, depression etc. the issue started in their head and eating was the coping mechanism as others would turn to alcohol or substance abuse.

An eating disorder is simply the manifestation of a deeper mental problem. I don't care if the nearest vegetables are an hours drive away, I'd say nobody becomes obese simply because it's a bit inconvenient to get unprocessed food.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: VanIslander on November 17, 2020, 01:02:43 am
Strawberries for $10 or strawberry-flavored cookies for $2.99?

Food deserts is a real phenomenom.
As an ex-uni student i totally get it.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Don Hobak on November 17, 2020, 06:57:12 am
I somehow doubt that your university was smack dab in the center of a food desert, even if you went to uni in he days before compulsory meal plans, but I can see how your budget might have prevented you from sampling your grocerís full assortment of goods.

Luckily, our condo is very walkable, with two markets within a few blocks. So maybe it is coronavirus I should be worried about...
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Aristocrat on November 17, 2020, 07:49:10 am
Strawberries for $10 or strawberry-flavored cookies for $2.99?

Food deserts is a real phenomenom.
As an ex-uni student i totally get it.

Strawberries are expensive everywhere and aren't exactly an essential.

Lentils are incredible foods and can be kept for ages. You can buy frozen mixed vegetables or have it delivered and stored in the freezer. Blanch almost any vegetable and store it in the freezer for months.

I seriously don't buy that people living in a 1st world country have absolutely no way of getting healthy foods. It might be trickier, but it's certainly possible and not terribly inconvenient.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: CO2 on November 17, 2020, 08:11:26 am
I seriously don't buy that people living in a 1st world country have absolutely no way of getting healthy foods. It might be trickier, but it's certainly possible and not terribly inconvenient.

BUT I DON'T LIKE LENTILS AND MCDONALD'S TASTES GOOD.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Kyndo on November 17, 2020, 08:34:14 am
I seriously don't buy that people living in a 1st world country have absolutely no way of getting healthy foods. It might be trickier, but it's certainly possible and not terribly inconvenient.
Not every part of a first world country is necessarily first world, unfortunately.  :sad:
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Aristocrat on November 17, 2020, 12:23:09 pm
Not every part of a first world country is necessarily first world, unfortunately.  :sad:

Absolutely, but I still believe there are ways. You telling me Americans can't have frozen veg or lentils delivered once a week?
Even so, an unhealthy diet alone isn't going to make you obese. It's an unhealthy diet coupled with extreme inactivity. Calling an ambulance to get your fat ass off the toilet, are you kidding me?

An aside, in SA, healthy food is expensive but fast food (McDonalds, KFC, Steers etc.) is expensive AF. We only got KFC once or twice a month, for Sunday lunch, and sometimes, we'd have Fisherman's Lane (seafood platter) instead.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on November 17, 2020, 02:59:53 pm
BUT I DON'T LIKE LENTILS AND MCDONALD'S TASTES GOOD.
Pretty much this. If Lentils tasted good and people wanted them, you'd have lentil bowls everywhere on the value menu.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: oglop on November 17, 2020, 05:22:03 pm
BUT I DON'T LIKE LENTILS AND MCDONALD'S TASTES GOOD.
the word lentils always reminds me of Neil from The Young Ones
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Liechtenstein on November 18, 2020, 01:49:32 pm
Back on point. It may not exactly be insane to leave a decently secure job right now but it is definitely worth seriously considering staying at one.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Don Hobak on November 18, 2020, 08:58:01 pm
Back on point. It may not exactly be insane to leave a decently secure job right now but it is definitely worth seriously considering staying at one.

I am not gainfully employed at the moment. A secure job awaits me in America after a final half semester of nursing school. But yeah, sounds like a decently secure kindy job paying 2.1mil awaits me here should I ever change my mind! It would be quite a comedown from what I had been making though...
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: VanIslander on November 18, 2020, 11:21:22 pm
The coronovirus infection rate elsewhere compared to here is huge.

The resilience of demand for English language teachers here is clear.

The benefits of free rent, low taxes, limited hours of work (even if you invest in prep time) and ability to contribute to your pension back home (agreements between SK and several Western nations).... are all financial...

... yet... also...

Isn't rockin' bossin' a classroom the cat's meow?

Even on my sickest day of work in 18+ years here, there were moments of glee, stillness, awesomeness, pain-free performance. Oh yeah.

I feel often like an actor on a live stage yet equipped usually with the tools to change the world, one audience at a time.

I think that's insight into my psyche. I had a major role in my high school play as a 1st year - mere 10th-grade student - Reverend Parris in Arthur Miller's The Crucible. I opened the play by talking while weeping. I LOVED every night of performance. After that year, in Grade 11, we did a musical and i said f*** that and played high school football instead. In Grade 12 I played a funny character in The Teahouse of the August Moon. I thought acting awesome but thought a more REAL platform was in my future (scientist? Er,... no. Why? Math, too hard/unengaging. Newspaper reporting? Hell ya, years of greatness, multiple awards, newspaper and radio news, I rocked the industry in Western Canada until at age 32 I thought i'd take a one - year break to travel... to Asia... South Korea... surprisingly never felt as satisfied. Did NOT look back. Being a big fish in the smallest pond of a classroom was enough for me to sleep well at night!
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Kyndo on November 19, 2020, 07:00:26 am
I feel often like an actor on a live stage yet equipped usually with the tools to change the world, one audience at a time.
+1
That's a nice quote!
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: VanIslander on November 19, 2020, 07:14:16 am
Thank you.

I bolded it because i felt it came straight from the heart.

It's always great to be heard and appreciated (another motivation of us career teaching junkies).
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: tylerthegloob on November 19, 2020, 07:39:10 am
i much preferred

Isn't rockin' bossin' a classroom the cat's meow?
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: VanIslander on November 19, 2020, 08:26:12 am
So did i, tylerthegloob, but i knew that was my ego talking, so didn't highlight it.

Nothing beats teaching a class of attentive, dialed-in students. Yeah, it may happen only half the time, but it jacks you up!

I have taught in hagwons (1-12 students per class) for... 17 years and 10 months.

I have taught in public school (30+ students in the library) for 2 months then a hard OUT! (Don't waste my time bro'! I ain't there to merely fill a spot and be a clown).

Now, some teachers might be able to connect wirh and help grow the skills of students in a 25+ attended class. It ain't my skillset.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: tylerthegloob on November 19, 2020, 08:46:54 am
half the time? lucky guy.

it's harder with big classes for sure. i think i sometimes fall into the trap of catering to the most motivated students though. i briefly taught adults back home and it was a different ballgame in terms of motivation and learning. here, if i can just motivate a few students who otherwise wouldn't have engaged with the class, i feel good.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Liechtenstein on November 19, 2020, 09:03:18 am
I am not gainfully employed at the moment. A secure job awaits me in America after a final half semester of nursing school. But yeah, sounds like a decently secure kindy job paying 2.1mil awaits me here should I ever change my mind! It would be quite a comedown from what I had been making though...

Adjectives do not exist to describe my profound respect for nurses.

When I was 17 I woke up one morning in mid-May with a fever. My mom kept me home for the day and then the next one. My fever spiked and stayed at 103F. It wouldn't come down despite my mom following the doctor's orders.

The doc said to bring me in to the hospital. They couldn't bring my fever down and an overnight stay turned into 6 weeks. It took them a week to found out what I had and by then I was on my way to dying. I had bacterial endocarditis. Rare at the best of times and virtually unheard of in 17 year old's who go to bed feeling great.

I was the guy that doctors took their residents to on rounds and after describing symptoms asked them for a diagnosis. No one ever got it right.

I was in a small hospital in Quebec City, 200 beds. There were 120 or so senior citizens, about 12 new babies and me. The nurses spoiled me rotten. Of course I missed my high school graduation and prom. I had tubes hanging out of me. Massive dose of constant penicillin. The nurses baked a cake for me and threw me a grad party. I got special meals and juices, I liked grapefruit juice and there was always a jug beside my bed.

I saw the doctor twice a week unless I was on freakshow parade :-)

Mad mad mad respect for nurses, man. Three cheers for you Don Hobak. You are a hero.

They let me out the end of June and I spent July and August eating penicillin like smarties and sitting on my porch watching my friends play. I couldn't do any activity that would raise my heartbeat above resting. At the lowest point I weighed 72 pounds. 5' 10"...72 lbs  it was not a pretty sight.

I'm alive and I believe the nurses were a bigger help to that than the doctors. 
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Kyndo on November 19, 2020, 09:45:26 am
Overworked, underpaid and absolutely crusial to the functioning of any medical system.
I have an uncle that was a nurse up until he retired.
He's now lead vocals and guitars (and saxaphonist) for a cover band called the LSDoors. Good stuff!
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Don Hobak on November 19, 2020, 09:46:55 am
The expectations were high enough; now I gotta learn to bake?!  :huh:

That sounds like a truly harrowing experience. Iím glad you got the care you did; couldnít have been easy for a 17 year old to go through all that. Unfortunately that sounds like a vignette from another era. Nursing has changed a lot since then, Iím afraid.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Don Hobak on December 13, 2020, 09:08:59 pm
The vaccines coming out adds a whole new twist to this decision. As a nursing student in America a vaccination will likely be available to me very early, if not required of me. My wife going over on a visa however, sheíd be near the back of the line I imagine. Not that she has any known conditions that make her susceptible to the more severe symptoms people are coming down with, but the worry I guess is that she would not be able to receive proper medical care if she did come down with the virus and require hospitalization because hospitals are fast approaching capacity in many areas. Korea was not planning to start their vaccination effort until sometime in March. Although this current surge might change the governmentís calculus, I doubt it would be available to her before her visa would expire. And despite the surge, I donít see this getting anywhere near American infection levels.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: KimchiNinja on February 20, 2021, 11:28:37 pm
With the exception of China where you donít even need to wear a mask, Korea is probably the best place on Earth to ride the chaos out.

America? Cmon, planes are literally falling out of the sky, whole states going dark, 500K corpses. Stay away, far away.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: confusedsafferinkorea on February 21, 2021, 08:23:21 am
With the exception of China where you donít even need to wear a mask, Korea is probably the best place on Earth to ride the chaos out.[/b]

KimchiN, in your posts on other threads you accuse us of being ignorant about all things Korean and East Asian, when in fact you are the ignorant one as displayed by your highlighted comment.

You are wrong on both counts to say the least.

1. In China masks are still required, my Chinese friends that I am in contact with daily tell me you are WRONG. They still have to wear masks.

2. Korea being probably the best place to ride out the chaos.

Stats for you as of this morning:
             
             Total cases.     new cases.    deaths.   new deaths    recovered.      active cases.    cases/million.     deaths/million.     population

Korea:  86,574.               446.              1,553.            3.                   77, 083.          7,938.               1,688.                        30.                       51 million

Taiwan.    942.                   1.                    9.                0.                       893.               40.                     40.                          0,4.                      24 million

Now given that Korea's population is about 2x that of Taiwan, even if we double  the Taiwanese numbers, it is still not close.

Korea's ranking 85/221 of listed areas, that doesn't make it one of the best places to ride it out.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: Aristocrat on February 21, 2021, 09:47:14 am
With the exception of China where you donít even need to wear a mask

If you're going to believe that then you probably believe that absolutely nothing happened on June 4th 1989.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: KimchiNinja on February 21, 2021, 06:14:27 pm
With the exception of China where you donít even need to wear a mask, Korea is probably the best place on Earth to ride the chaos out.[/b]

You are wrong on both counts to say the least.

Shrug, I called the socioeconomic collapse of America 15yrs ago, and jumped ship. Here I am with essentially 0% probability of getting the virus, while 497,648 people back there are dead. My forecasts and risk management were fine.

You can make your own life decisions. No requirement to troll my posts and argue. Iím not your dad and you donít need my permission if you want to move to China.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: confusedsafferinkorea on February 22, 2021, 05:21:52 am
No requirement to troll my posts and argue.

Oh the irony.
Title: Re: Is it insane to leave Korea right now?
Post by: hangook77 on March 10, 2021, 01:49:51 pm
Not sure if I replied already.  I'd say stay until 2022 or if you are or have been here long term, stay a bit longer until 2023, if you are planning on making the exit.  Covid should be done by then and we should be able to see what market conditions there are for jobs back home or teaching in other countries.