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All about South Korea => Life in Korea => Topic started by: KimDuHan on January 01, 2020, 05:06:33 am

Title: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: KimDuHan on January 01, 2020, 05:06:33 am
Another increase in the minimum wage is coming which means everything else is going up!!!

Food in Korea is already expensive and with higher minimum wages the price will increase.

Currently the ESL industry is dying and with hagwons offering salaries like 1.9 million a month how can a teacher survive.

I looked at one of my old schools and the wage they offer is less than what I got in 2013.

It’s amazing that ESL jobs are even being filled when you can work without a degree in the USA or Canada and earn more than in Korea .
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: stoat on January 01, 2020, 05:59:36 am
Minimum wage in the UK is soon going up to 8.72 an hour which works out at around 2.1 mil a month for a 40 hour week. However you don't get accommodation thrown in so Korea is still not a bad deal for newly qualified unemployable arts graduates from the UK
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: KimDuHan on January 01, 2020, 06:34:14 am
Alberta for example has a $15 minimum which works out to about 2.35million won a month for a 40 hour week.

That’s the bare minimum not including overtime or holiday work.

In northern Alberta no one will work for under $18 dollars and rent is cheap as the economy failed. You can literally rent a hotel room for 400-500 a month which includes all utilities.

Korean ESL schools have to increase their wages honestly, I know it’s an adventure to travel and explore the world but when it comes down to career advancement and your future Korea has a lot of work to do.

Honestly if Korean schools provided a competitive market I would probably live in Korea till I retire. But with a family you can’t survive maybe a single new graduate can but without an equalization of wages it will continue to be harder.

The F6 visa is always thrown around as a solution but it doesn’t work for everyone as not everyone comes to Korea to get married.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: VanIslander on January 01, 2020, 07:14:13 am
... Honestly if Korean schools provided a competitive market I would probably live in Korea till I retire. But with a family you can’t survive maybe a single new graduate can ...
Indeed.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: waygo0k on January 01, 2020, 07:51:19 am
All that’s going to happen is hagwons and schools will simply carry on with status quo. They’ve had it this good with low wages for over a decade, and now there is a virtually unlimited supply of weaboos and/or weak willed individuals willing to slave away for 10hr days for 2.1-2.3 before tax.

It’s not just ESL jobs that offer accommodation anymore as well...these days more and more Korean companies are offering free accommodation or allowances to their staff, who certainly earn more than ESL teachers. So we can’t even class free accommodation as an attractive benefit anymore if locals get it and we still earn less than them.

As has been demonstrated on this site by others, ESL now broadly pays the same as, and in some cases lower than manual labour jobs in factories, farms, construction sites etc. Yeah, you get to sit at a desk for hours but that factory worker stuffing chicken into boxes takes home the same pay as you or more...without that expensive degree you had to pay for as a requirement to get here.

For those who can, it’s better to start voting with your feet. That’s the only way the ESL industry here will change, if it even wants to in the first place.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: PatrickBateman on January 01, 2020, 10:02:37 am
If you're a fresh or recent college grad and you come to Korea for the money, you're an idiot.  My advice to all newbies, it's to do a year and gtfo. Enjoy and travel but don't waste you time trying to get a career in ESL unless you want to be part of the lower class on par with delivery drivers or emart clerks. This industry is all but dead and there is zero respect for hagwon jokeys or the so called ''prestigious' public school jobs.. 

They know you make diddlysquat and think you're pathetic, trust me.  If you're 30+ still doing it they just see you as failure in the life.   There is still time to turn your life around even with your degree in poetry.  It's a sunk cost, just go back and get a real skill such as a trade.  You can be a journeymen in 3-4 years making 70K in most trades.  do it bro.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: NorthStar on January 01, 2020, 10:13:39 am
Quote
just go back and get a real skill such as a trade

That is what I am going to do, I think.  However, I fear I will miss the classroom, the kids, the energy....

Perhaps one more year in ESL...but, in China.  I've been anti-teaching-China for some time but...$2500 a month with a lower cost of living for a year, seems not too shabby. 

This place (Korea)....especially my current position...I just feel like it was all for nothing. 
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: PatrickBateman on January 01, 2020, 11:11:01 am
Quote
just go back and get a real skill such as a trade

That is what I am going to do, I think.  However, I fear I will miss the classroom, the kids, the energy....

Perhaps one more year in ESL...but, in China.  I've been anti-teaching-China for some time but...$2500 a month with a lower cost of living for a year, seems not too shabby. 

This place (Korea)....especially my current position...I just feel like it was all for nothing. 

Don't.  Stop delaying the inevitable.  You will go to China and think you'll stay for 1 year.. then it becomes 4...  Why live in a communist shithole for 2500/month.  It's intimidating to go back to your home country and start fresh as a 25+ yr old with no experience.  Shit I know people that are 35+ that need to make the move but the longer you procrastinate, the more uphill of a battle it will become.  People are re-training and changing careers all the time even at 40 - 45.   Korea is cool for 1 year or 2 maximum.  Those of us staying longer, unless married and with a fool proof plan, are digging a hole deeper and deeper for a pittance and a moldy shoebox apartment.  This place is polluted and not all that charming anymore.  I'm out of here real soon and feeling a new lease on life.

Also do this experiment.  Make a tinder/bumble profile with your job as ESL teacher swipe every decent looking woman and see how many matches you get.  Now make the exact same profile but only change your job.  Not even some great job like doctor or engineer..  just some shit like accountant or whatever...  The ESL you will get hardly any matches bc women avoid people like that like the plague.  Any other job you'll get 3-5x the matches.  same face, same intro, hobbies..  but the job is everything.  point is esl is seen lower than street sweepers and you'll only get the bottom of the barrel of women here.  is that a life you want live fellas? gtfo now
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: gogators! on January 01, 2020, 11:14:17 am
Inflation in SK is historically low--.04%. Not everything is going up.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 01, 2020, 11:32:35 am
Stop posting misinformation, gogators. Your decimal point is in the wrong place.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: sleepy on January 01, 2020, 12:03:16 pm
Ha ha, this thread is like Fox News! Happy NY ppl.

Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: NorthStar on January 01, 2020, 12:19:05 pm
Quote
Don't.  Stop delaying the inevitable.  You will go to China and think you'll stay for 1 year.. then it becomes 4...  Why live in a communist shithole for 2500/month.  It's intimidating to go back to your home country and start fresh as a 25+ yr old with no experience.  Shit I know people that are 35+ that need to make the move but the longer you procrastinate, the more uphill of a battle it will become.  People are re-training and changing careers all the time even at 40 - 45.   Korea is cool for 1 year or 2 maximum.  Those of us staying longer, unless married and with a fool proof plan, are digging a hole deeper and deeper for a pittance and a moldy shoebox apartment.  This place is polluted and not all that charming anymore.  I'm out of here real soon and feeling a new lease on life.

Also do this experiment.  Make a tinder/bumble profile with your job as ESL teacher swipe every decent looking woman and see how many matches you get.  Now make the exact same profile but only change your job.  Not even some great job like doctor or engineer..  just some shit like accountant or whatever... The ESL you will get hardly any matches bc women avoid people like that like the plague.  Any other job you'll get 3-5x the matches.  same face, same intro, hobbies..  but the job is everything.  point is esl is seen lower than street sweepers and you'll only get the bottom of the barrel of women here.  is that a life you want live fellas? gtfo now

Sad...but true, I guess.  Though, it really goes to show what modern women really want and value. 


Yeah...I think it is time.  I hoestly don't think I can stomach the remainder of my contract.  Phuck...I can't even turn the heat on, when I want...which allows a small window of time, anyway. 
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: waygo0k on January 01, 2020, 12:21:52 pm
“The inflation rate in South Korea between 2010 and 2019 was 16.89%, which translates into a total increase of W354,771.53.

This means that 2,100,000 won in 2010 are equivalent to 2,454,771.53 won in 2019.

In other words, the purchasing power of W2,100,000 in 2010 equals W2,454,771.53 in 2019. The average annual inflation rate between these periods was 1.75%”


Adjusted for inflation, the average ESL starting salary in 2019 should be 2.4mil...korea has gotten 16.89% more expensive during that period, and the price of some things have increased way beyond that.

I don’t think hagwon owners today are charging customers 2010 prices...why should you continue to accept a wage that is below what people were earning (AFI) 10 years ago?
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on January 01, 2020, 12:30:23 pm
LOL so now Waygook has gone from "u can make 3 to 5m a month ez with a BA in basket weaving" straight to "the market is fucked and you'll be lucky to make 1.9m."

I guarantee if anyone teaching English in Korea goes home you'll end up making less than 2.1m a month after paying rent, but at least the food will be good and the air will be clean and everything will be in English. Eventually you'll make more but only after several years of hard work and some expensive and time-consuming retraining. The job market in the West has gotten a lot more cut-throat than it was like 5-7 years ago, even with the booming economy.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: waygo0k on January 01, 2020, 12:48:21 pm
Haha good old Mayor coming in with some disinformation.

I have always stated you can make 3-5 million per month in korea on an E-2 IF you’re willing to hustle for it...maybe in your world ‘hustling’ equates to ‘ez’  :undecided: :undecided:

Even after I proved to you with pictorial evidence that it indeed is possible to get employer permission and register a second and even third job with immigration on an E-2, along with other credible forum members confirming from their own personal first hand experiences that yes you indeed can make 3-5 mil on an E-2...which you claimed to be impossible...you continued to misconstrue what everyone was saying and proving to you left and right.

And now we are here today, with you STILL continuing to refuse to accept a basic fact that has been proven to you over and over.

Get 2 jobs and pull in 3-5 mil...it’s certainly a possibility and people are doing it on an E-2 visa right now. But do that for 2 years plus and it’ll wear you out.

Why do all that when you can basically earn the same in China teaching 20-25hrs per week?

Over to you Mr. Miscontrusion...let’s see how you will fail to understand this one.

PS: in case anyone was wondering what Mayor was erroneously referring to, here it is - https://www.waygook.org/index.php?topic=118472.160
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on January 01, 2020, 02:56:34 pm
No, the usual suspects were lying about how anyone can get an average normal hagwon job making 3m a month or more. When pushed back about this they started admitting that actually you can make more money if you work more hours. No duh! But most e2's don't want to work more than 40 hours, and hagwon job schedules won't let you go work somewhere else easily even if you had permission to have a second employer, unless you wanted to work like 60 hours a week or more.

Pretty sure some of these usual suspects are now moaning about pay plummetting.

Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: NorthStar on January 01, 2020, 03:28:41 pm
No, the usual suspects were lying about how anyone can get an average normal hagwon job making 3m a month or more. When pushed back about this they started admitting that actually you can make more money if you work more hours. No duh! But most e2's don't want to work more than 40 hours, and hagwon job schedules won't let you go work somewhere else easily even if you had permission to have a second employer, unless you wanted to work like 60 hours a week or more.

Pretty sure some of these usual suspects are now moaning about pay plummetting.



..gonna have to agree with this.  Many, if not most, E2 visa holders are stuck in a schedule, in which makes taking on a second job (a desirable one, anyway) highly inconvenient, or impossible...not to mention crap bag directors usually NOT wanting to grant permission to even do so. 

If one wants to bypass the permission route, then,....it is not worth the risk of being deported. 
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: guppy1000 on January 01, 2020, 03:46:04 pm
Fast fact:

ESL salaries have not gone up in about 20 years.  Literally. 

But who cares.

Korean women are still 1000 times better than the land-whales back in the English speaking world...  and to me that's worth 10 million a month right there...
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: PatrickBateman on January 01, 2020, 03:52:43 pm
Fast fact:

ESL salaries have not gone up in about 20 years.  Literally. 

But who cares.

Korean women are still 1000 times better than than land-whales back in the English speaking world...  and to me that's worth 10 million a month right there...

this is a fact and what kept me here when I knew I should have left long ago,  Vacations home and seeing what the 27+ women that are single have to offer..  if youre not a surgeon, professional athlete,  famous in someway, millionaire..  lol you're fuked and will have to settle for a whale with baggage and she's still entitled in thinking she deserves a Chad.  If you get a cute asian hang onto her, there's nothing for us back home fellas, unless you're a Chad and have a great career.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: waygo0k on January 01, 2020, 04:04:02 pm
That’s not what you came on here to say though Mayor...you didn’t start on here with “the usual suspects”, you literally came here and made an erroneous claim about things I supposedly said in the past, which I have replied with receipts clarifying exactly what I said with proof verifying it.

Now I’m going to have to repeat all the things I thought had already been clarified and dusted months ago.

If you’re an E-2 working at a 9am-7pm hellwon M-F for 2.1-2.3, yeah, your schedule wouldn’t allow you to get a part time job. You could technically still do it but you’d probably burn out in less than a year. That is not the majority of E-2s in my guesstimation.

If you’re an E-2 with an average 25-30 teaching hour week, chances are you have minimal to no deskwarming duties...leaving you with 10-15hrs a week, or even more, for extra part time work you can legally do. This of course depends on your relationship with your boss and the availability of said part time work around where you live.

Some E-2 waegs will have shitty bosses that will reject such a request, some waegs will have great bosses that would have no issues accepting such a request, some waegs will have bosses who might be open to the idea if you can properly persuade them it won’t cause any trouble with the business and immigration...it’s a combination of luck and your relationship with your employer.

Back to the original point...wages in korea suck and it looks like they are set to worsen in the coming years.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 01, 2020, 05:56:38 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oes1h-vlJu0
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on January 01, 2020, 06:04:20 pm
Doesn't matter, most "average" (in your words) hagwon jobs are not working 25 hours and then let you go do whatever you want, most actual average hagwon jobs are 30 teaching hours and your breaks are spread throughout the day. As a result you're basically working 40 hours but with lots of breaks. MAYBE you can leave a half hour early one or two days a week. You don't have blocks of hours and hours of free time where you can go work somewhere else. And if you work less than 30 hours you will accordingly be paid less, 25 hour part-time jobs that pay full time salaries are not the norm. There basically is no deskwarming at hagwons, and there's little need for any lesson planning. But you're still expected to be there at 9 or 10 and finish teaching at 6 or 7. I really don't get why it's so hard for people here to grasp what is standard and expected in the vast majority of hagwon jobs, but what else should I expect from a community that simultanously believes that you can and can't make more money back home in the West.

Really the best you can hope for is to have a hagwon boss who owns other hagwon businesses on the side in the neighborhood and sends you out to teach extra classes under the table. But that's still working more than 40 hours, and you're only looking at an extra few hundred thousand extra a month. Not an extra million. Also this might work out ok in March and April, but by November hagwon students start dropping out and classes get shuttered.

I mean it's pretty laughable telling us "if you work more hours you can make more money" and treating it like it's some kind of wise epiphany. The rest of us can do math too.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: NorthStar on January 01, 2020, 06:06:27 pm
She does not look convinced...
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: guppy1000 on January 01, 2020, 07:01:00 pm
Her video is really quite the stretch...

"Tell your future boss your are proficient in intercultural communication"

--- He'll probably roll his eyes, go what the f*ck kind of liberal arts BS is this... and then assume it's a reference for negotiating prices with bar girls in Soi Cowboy.


"You can talk to just about anyone"

--- So people who don't teach English are incapable of talking?  All those doctors out there are using pantomime at work??


"Better at Networking"

---- If you were better at networking you wouldn't be working in Korea in the first place.


"You have better administration skills"

--- Ummmmmmm


"Power point skills, time management skills, teaching skills"

---- Possibly, but that depends on the person.


I've seen guys go back home after long stints teaching in Asia.  Not everyone is the same, but many are doing low level jobs, often working in the service sector.

Some of the older teachers who went home are permanently unemployable.


Do your time in Asia... have fun for a year.... but don't stay more than a year.



Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Cohort 2019 on January 01, 2020, 07:43:26 pm
(https://cdn.businessinsider.nl/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/3c715a46a8a37ba46ecc9fb6254e8a7e429e90bd-800x701.jpg)
I disagree, just go home and jobs will get thrown at you. I never had JSA and stood back in front of class in a matter of weeks (against my will but I was asked to).  And yes, some schools can be tough, and I have had tough days but that seems nothing different from Korea and I have had nothing but wonderful colleagues and thankful and motivated kids, especially those struggling the most or the ones with the lowest IQs. As long as you are gentle, kindhearted and forgiving to the worst kids you will be all right. I still have very fond memories of that inner city school and the endearing emails I got after I left.

Why would you consider warping your extensive experience to fit a weird business mold if you could apply at any middle-or high school and present them with your invaluable ESL experience which is currently the most cutting-edge revolutionary pedagogy taking our work field practice by storm? Despite some of the irksome discussions and blatant disregard of what I consider political sanity, I respect each one of you because I know that any lifers are highly proficient at 'unplugged ESL teaching' and are extremely pragmatic and innovative in their methodology compared to the majority of the English teachers that I work with now who depend heavily on scripted classes and books. I think that the more you know about teaching English the less you need to rely on books, or indeed you could teach any book at any school in any country to anyone.

All you would need is a few years of some hard graft back at Teacher's college back home.
I believe piggydee is doing it now as well back in the UK, isn't she? And for Americans I think there is a lot of work available as an ESL teacher to Spanish speaking immigrants.

I would have to assume based on my own experiences that if you find it hard to get employed back home as a teacher then perhaps your qualifications aren't up to scratch yet and schools cannot hire you, which is then down to your own choice of not taking advantage of the many government schemes available to aspiring teachers.
Let me reiterate: there is a growing demand for teachers in the UK/EU/USA which is only to get much much worse  https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/06/us/international-teachers-us-shortage/index.html
If Korea is no longer your thing, then please do come back and help your own country to move forward instead of wasting your skills in a far-off country 11.000 miles away. Stay, if you love the pollution and your future prospects there. Those were my reasons for leaving, but I did enjoy my time and I don't regret having stayed there for several years.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: NorthStar on January 01, 2020, 08:28:01 pm
Do folks every wonder WHY there is a shortage of teachers in the U.S.?

It is not that easy to just go home and go to "teachers' college".
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 01, 2020, 08:43:48 pm
Boomers are retiring.

Not as many millennials going into teaching. They want to be YouTubers and Instagram influencers.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Cohort 2019 on January 01, 2020, 08:44:39 pm
Boomers are retiring.

Yes, exactly in droves, all around the world. Good teachers are becoming urgently scarce.
It is not that easy to just go home and go to "teachers' college".
I agree that the route seems rive with obstacles, but depending on your own character/professionalism, schools love it that you have worked in Education for years consecutively, without taking up any sick leave or showing up late etc. and that you have shown a true 'passion' for teaching. Any grey hairs added to the mix only heighten that perception. As for getting back to Teachers' college (thx for correction :azn: ) I was in class with a few 50 and 60-year-olds, and schools accomodate you as much as possible. I had 1 study day off per week and could always get extra leave for exams.

My current school had many applicants but they had chosen me because of my ESL -TOEFL/Cambridge and that I came across as a well-rounded individual who had gained a lot of life experience.

It has been mentioned before but I still find it hard to fathom that the cultural differences are so stark that schools in the US. would be so horrendous. Perhaps some schools, in bad neighbourhoods, similarly as to some schools in London, but how terrible could an elementary class of South American immigrants wanting to learn English ever get?

And I still believe that if you are a solid but kindhearted teacher, that even the worst classes would eventually come around and enjoy having classes with you. Maybe you will have a tough first year, but all teachers have to go through a few tough years until they gain that unquestionable amount of authority and respect necessary to teach at such schools. Also, because of the shortages, good teachers get recruited by the best schools, so if you happen to end up at a really bad school, it needn't be much longer than one or two years. If anything, it helped me tremendously to have been forced to manage very difficult classes in my first few years, because now, when I enter an Upper Sixth class I have that wisened, grizzled teacher's aura of unquestionable respect.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: NorthStar on January 01, 2020, 09:06:45 pm
It has been mentioned before but I still find it hard to fathom that the cultural differences are so stark that schools in the US. would be so horrendous. Perhaps some schools, in bad neighbourhoods, similarly as to some schools in London, but how terrible could an elementary class of South American immigrants wanting to learn English ever get?

And I still believe that if you are a solid but kindhearted teacher, that even the worst classes would eventually come around and enjoy having classes with you. Maybe you will have a tough first year, but all teachers have to go through a few tough years until they reach that unquestionable amount of authority and respect necessary to teach at such schools. Also, because of the shortages, good teachers get recruited by the best schools, so if you happen to end up at a really bad school, it needn't be much longer than one or two years. If anything, it helped me tremendously to have been forced to manage very difficult classes in my first few years, because now, when I enter an Upper Sixth class I have that wisened, grizzled teacher's aura of unquestionable respect.

I am not disrespecting your post..or, at least, attempting to.  I see the value in what you wrote. 


It still remains, though.  Simply going back to university and getting certified, no matter how much experience abroad, all depends on the undergraduate GPA...even from 20 years ago.  In addition. it is no secret that there have been way more educational "administrators" hired, than teachers. The teachers that are hired, along with the administrators, are the  new breed...in which have contributed to the fall of educational standards in the U.S.  The profession has been manipulated, being morphed into the customer service industry.  Having to toe the line, according to the failing methods and policies back in the U.S., seems far fetched, to someone who actually has an idea of what to do in the classroom. 

With that said, one of the biggest factors lacking in the classroom, in the US, is discipline....along with parental involvement and accountability...wh ich leaks on the student.

Look, I'm not trying to spray weed-be-gone on what you have to say.   But, when the students have more power than the teacher, that is a problem.  This does not include the financial costs.  One has to have the right undergraduate degree, simply to get accept into a Post-Bach program....or, start all over (at least in the U.S.).  This also means having to be classmates with those of the worst generation, who have bought into (until they actually get in the classroom) the ideas/ideals that were spoon fed to them. 

Yes...I am positive that there are gems in the U.S., regarding teaching opportunities.  But, at least it seems, there is another problem.  The education industry in the U.S. is not very welcoming to male teachers. 

I'm sorry...I went on a rant.Again, I'm not dismissing your stance out of spite....I just don't agree.  Though, I'd like to. 
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Cohort 2019 on January 01, 2020, 09:23:20 pm
You were totally not ranting. I would love for you to find a way into teaching back home and you are right in saying that 1: you have to start over 3/4-year degree and 2: changing expectations.

I started over and it was all paid for. And yeah there is a lot of truth in what you are saying about the hold that students have over you and what you can say or can do in class. Especially with all the smartphones you just have to assume that you are always being recorded non-stop. But I am not an exceptional person, any ESL lifer can do what I did and adjust to a new reality. If anything, I enjoy it more because I am working with people of my own culture and that is so much easier all across the board. We do work in a female-oriented 'soft' profession, you are right in that, but the value of good male teachers is definitely appreciated, especially to offset all the soft pampering done in Elementary school. When I teach high schoolers I am very 'macho' as a rolemodel for the young 17/18-year-old men in my class. When I teach first graders, I am very gentle and forgiving and all I ever want from them is to do well and never give up. 

It would be a great shame if you would ever consider to return home but wouldn't because you would think it would be too hard to get back in college and start over. Evening classes are relatively small and most colleges offer 'blended learning' which is that you study mostly at home and only come to take tests.
-------------------

Actually, come to think of it, I have a pen pal project with a teacher in San Diego, whose kids don't have access to email or computers. That sounds pretty disadvantaged to me, but at the same time they are really into writing letters to my students, that really does not sound to me as if that is a terrible class in which no one is paying attention and the teacher is desperately yelling for them to open their books. So, are all US schools really so undisciplined as Martino makes them out to be?
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Cyanea on January 01, 2020, 09:37:32 pm
It’s amazing that ESL jobs are even being filled when you can work without a degree in the USA or Canada and earn more than in Korea .

probably because the real unemployment rate in the US is different to what they claim it is.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 01, 2020, 09:42:52 pm
Take off the tin hat, Cyanea.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 01, 2020, 09:48:01 pm
Youngsters are coming to Korea for the Kpop experience.

Analysts say demand for the gear is growing as the popularity of K-Pop bands spreads beyond the domestic market across other parts of Asia and into the West.

Japanese fans outside the store told Reuters they had flown in because the Gangnam store “had more stuff” than the three BTS stores in their own country. About 1,500 fans or more visited the store during a single day last week.

“I’m hoping to buy whatever I can,” said Rebecca Mould, 25, originally from the U.S. city of Boston, a BTS fan for about two years on her first visit to the store. “I already have a lot, so whatever else there is...”


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-christmas-season-kpop-bts/k-pop-fans-brave-seouls-christmas-chill-to-buy-bts-merch-idUSKBN1YS0MM
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: gogators! on January 01, 2020, 10:59:13 pm
Stop posting misinformation, gogators. Your decimal point is in the wrong place.
Right. It's .4%, still the lowest since 1966.

A mistake is not misinformation.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: stoat on January 01, 2020, 11:53:42 pm
Youngsters are coming to Korea for the Kpop experience.

Analysts say demand for the gear is growing as the popularity of K-Pop bands spreads beyond the domestic market across other parts of Asia and into the West.

Japanese fans outside the store told Reuters they had flown in because the Gangnam store “had more stuff” than the three BTS stores in their own country. About 1,500 fans or more visited the store during a single day last week.

“I’m hoping to buy whatever I can,” said Rebecca Mould, 25, originally from the U.S. city of Boston, a BTS fan for about two years on her first visit to the store. “I already have a lot, so whatever else there is...”


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-christmas-season-kpop-bts/k-pop-fans-brave-seouls-christmas-chill-to-buy-bts-merch-idUSKBN1YS0MM

It may be big in the States but I've just been all over the UK on holiday and never saw or heard anything about k pop. Someone called Stormzy seemed to be the latest thing plus I heard the name Drake. Saw the usual pics of Ed Sheeran, Little Mix and Ariane Grande about the place. Of BTS not a hide nor hair. Not even any calendars in the WH Smith half price after Xmas bucket I'm afraid
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: waygo0k on January 02, 2020, 07:50:23 am
Doesn't matter, most "average" (in your words) hagwon jobs are not working 25 hours and then let you go do whatever you want, most actual average hagwon jobs are 30 teaching hours and your breaks are spread throughout the day. As a result you're basically working 40 hours but with lots of breaks. MAYBE you can leave a half hour early one or two days a week. You don't have blocks of hours and hours of free time where you can go work somewhere else. And if you work less than 30 hours you will accordingly be paid less, 25 hour part-time jobs that pay full time salaries are not the norm. There basically is no deskwarming at hagwons, and there's little need for any lesson planning. But you're still expected to be there at 9 or 10 and finish teaching at 6 or 7. I really don't get why it's so hard for people here to grasp what is standard and expected in the vast majority of hagwon jobs, but what else should I expect from a community that simultanously believes that you can and can't make more money back home in the West.

You just described a kindergarten, or in some cases a hellwon, not your average hagwon.

Let's take a little trip through the Korea ESL job vacancy world:

Starting salary: 2.1 ~ 2.5 million won/month, dependent on qualifications
Working House: MWF: 1 p.m.~8/9 p.m., TT: 2 p.m.~10 p.m.


What's that? 1pm to 9pm? That's UMPOSSIBLE!
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=78696

Salary : 2.1 mil won
Working hours : from 9:00 am to 4:00 pm Monday to Friday(2 working Saturdays a year)


Low salary, but also low working hours??? That's UMPOSSIBLE!
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=78771

Working Time: 8:30 to 5:30 Mon-Fri.

Monthly Salary: 2.7M KRW (Negotiable)


Hold on a minute...that has definitely got to be UMPOSSIBLE!
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=78800

Working days/hours: Mon - Fri - 5 days. 13:00 - 19:00/30 hours per week
Salary: 2.1 million won – 2.2 million won


I hope the point is starting to set in now...

Hours: 12:30PM to 8:30PM, Monday-Friday
Salary 2.1+ million KRW monthly


http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=78642

Notice these are direct ads from schools themselves...I could go on and on and even start posting countess recruiter ads that have similar working hours. Besides, imagine you work at your hellwon from 9am to 7pm...you're really trying to say it is impossible to find a hagwon with classes from 8-10pm to teach part time in??? In Korea???  :undecided: :undecided:

Really the best you can hope for is to have a hagwon boss who owns other hagwon businesses on the side in the neighborhood and sends you out to teach extra classes under the table. But that's still working more than 40 hours, and you're only looking at an extra few hundred thousand extra a month. Not an extra million. Also this might work out ok in March and April, but by November hagwon students start dropping out and classes get shuttered.

No, that is not the best you can hope for according to multiple people (Kyondo, Oglop, Chinguetti, Van, me, Ronnie, Stoat) on this site with first hand experience of having more than one job and pulling in 3-5mil per month. Just because YOU refuse to believe it can happen (in spite of the evidence)...doesn't mean it doesn't actually happen.

I mean it's pretty laughable telling us "if you work more hours you can make more money" and treating it like it's some kind of wise epiphany. The rest of us can do math too.

Imagine that huh...even with all the math that was presented to you in the other thread, you still refused to believe the people telling you their own personal experiences and instead chose to move the goalposts and nitpick on things like "And you public school dudes can humblebrag all you want about your fat salaries and yearly raises, but have fun when your county or province fires non-renews all the NETs to save money"...because you have nothing to fall back on but misconstrusion and falsehoods.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on January 02, 2020, 08:01:59 am

I disagree, just go home and jobs will get thrown at you.

LOL. Here we go again with the unverifiable bullshit no doubt backed up by anecdotal "evidence." Sure there are plenty of jobs back home if you are ok with working uncertain hours in retail (which is now basically heavy labor) or working in a call center or flipping burgers or driving for Uber.

And I like how you qualify it in the same post with "if you go back to teacher's college." Yes people with an education degree can get jobs easily in certain countries (probably only the US and UK and only very recently here in New Zealand) but most E-2s don't have an education degree. So that means retraining which costs money. Even if it's paid for and even if you do a one-year teaching degree you'd still have to do something to pay for rent and food and so on until you graduate. All your savings from Korea will be gone pretty quick. And then after all that hard work you end up with a "great" teaching job working probably 80 hours a week and making less money per month after you pay rent than you did at your "shitty" 40 hours a week job in Korea.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on January 02, 2020, 08:09:25 am


You just described a kindergarten, or in some cases a hellwon, not your average hagwon.

Let's take a little trip through the Korea ESL job vacancy world:

Starting salary: 2.1 ~ 2.5 million won/month, dependent on qualifications
Working House: MWF: 1 p.m.~8/9 p.m., TT: 2 p.m.~10 p.m.


What's that? 1pm to 9pm? That's UMPOSSIBLE!
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=78696

Salary : 2.1 mil won
Working hours : from 9:00 am to 4:00 pm Monday to Friday(2 working Saturdays a year)


Low salary, but also low working hours??? That's UMPOSSIBLE!
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=78771

Working Time: 8:30 to 5:30 Mon-Fri.

Monthly Salary: 2.7M KRW (Negotiable)


Hold on a minute...that has definitely got to be UMPOSSIBLE!
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=78800

Working days/hours: Mon - Fri - 5 days. 13:00 - 19:00/30 hours per week
Salary: 2.1 million won – 2.2 million won


I hope the point is starting to set in now...

Hours: 12:30PM to 8:30PM, Monday-Friday
Salary 2.1+ million KRW monthly


http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=78642

Notice these are direct ads from schools themselves...I could go on and on and even start posting countess recruiter ads that have similar working hours. Besides, imagine you work at your hellwon from 9am to 7pm...you're really trying to say it is impossible to find a hagwon with classes from 8-10pm to teach part time in??? In Korea???  :undecided: :undecided:

LOL all you're doing is proving my point. You're just showing jobs that make less than 3m a month, and the ones with shorter hours pay less. If you wanted to make 3m a month with the lower hour jobs you'd have to work at least 50 to 60 hours a week if not more and that's only if you got permission to get a second job and somehow found one that fit around the other hagwon's schedule. Also Chungdahm has the reputation of being the worst ESL employer in Korea.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: oglop on January 02, 2020, 08:11:31 am
waygo0k: fyi i was talking about having an F visa. it's easy to make more money with an F visa, but not so easy on an E2 -- although not impossible
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: waygo0k on January 02, 2020, 08:25:33 am


LOL all you're doing is proving my point. You're just showing jobs that make less than 3m a month, and the ones with shorter hours pay less. If you wanted to make 3m a month with the lower hour jobs you'd have to work at least 50 to 60 hours a week if not more and that's only if you got permission to get a second job and somehow found one that fit around the other hagwon's schedule. Also Chungdahm has the reputation of being the worst ESL employer in Korea.

30hrs at your main job (maximum) plus 15-20hrs at your side gig gives you a 45-50hr teaching week.

Let’s say you do 2hrs prep time each day because you like to take your time with prepping...that’s a 55hr to 60hr work week for 4.5-5mil per month on an E2. I know this because I’ve done it.
(Waygo0k, October 13, 2019) - https://www.waygook.org/index.php?topic=118472.msg804841#msg804841

At least you're starting to warm to the idea and repeating most of what I've already said and trying to make it sound like your own   ;D ;D

waygo0k: fyi i was talking about having an F visa. it's easy to make more money with an F visa, but not so easy on an E2 -- although not impossible

Totally agree.

Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: SuperDoodle23 on January 02, 2020, 09:57:29 am
I really hope you guys are right about f6 visa making more money m. I'm in the processing of transferring now.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: zola on January 02, 2020, 10:05:22 am
It's not as though money suddenly appears in your bank account or you start getting phone calls offering you amazing jobs. All it does is free you up to have the ability to make more money. How you choose to use that freedom is on you. It can be a real grind.

I know more than a few F6s who work one job pulling in 2.5ish and are content doing so.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 02, 2020, 10:11:53 am
The wife's probably not content with the man making so little.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: PatrickBateman on January 02, 2020, 10:50:10 am
Wow lots of arguing about how to make 3-4m working 60 hours a week while inhaling 2.5pm in copious amounts and being on crowded trains smelling korean grandpas kimchi, soju, onion, garlic, ciggy medley breath. 

3.5 is  $3,000... 36K USD a year.  What is the average salary of a person with a bachelor's degree?
The average person with a bachelor's degree makes a median income of $70,200/year or $1,350.00/week.
https://www.creditdonkey.com/average-us-salary.html

All of us have degrees do we not? Why are we arguing how to make 50% of what the average person in the USA makes.  Are we that much of social rejects that can't compete to make at least 50K?

yeah yeah, insurance, taxes,  housing.. bla bla.   Live in a state with no income tax.  take care of your health, live a minimalist lifestyle.  Anything is better than living on the fringes of Korean society making a below average salary with zero respect.  The good times are over here and you gotta accept it.

do a year and gtfo young guns, I'm warning you.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: oglop on January 02, 2020, 11:06:13 am
Wow lots of arguing about how to make 3-4m working 60 hours a week while inhaling 2.5pm in copious amounts and being on crowded trains smelling korean grandpas kimchi, soju, onion, garlic, ciggy medley breath. 

3.5 is  $3,000... 36K USD a year.  What is the average salary of a person with a bachelor's degree?
The average person with a bachelor's degree makes a median income of $70,200/year or $1,350.00/week.
https://www.creditdonkey.com/average-us-salary.html

All of us have degrees do we not? Why are we arguing how to make 50% of what the average person in the USA makes.  Are we that much of social rejects that can't compete to make at least 50K?

yeah yeah, insurance, taxes,  housing.. bla bla.   Live in a state with no income tax.  take care of your health, live a minimalist lifestyle.  Anything is better than living on the fringes of Korean society making a below average salary with zero respect.  The good times are over here and you gotta accept it.

do a year and gtfo young guns, I'm warning you.

Not everyone is from the US..
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: tylerthegloob on January 02, 2020, 11:07:14 am
Not everyone is from the US..

it's okay. even for those of us from the US, that post is pretty irrelevant
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: NorthStar on January 02, 2020, 11:17:24 am
I really hope you guys are right about f6 visa making more money m. I'm in the processing of transferring now.

https://seoul.craigslist.org/edu/d/after-school-in-masan-15pm-mf-20-mil/7038174626.html
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: SuperDoodle23 on January 02, 2020, 11:34:33 am
I really hope you guys are right about f6 visa making more money m. I'm in the processing of transferring now.

https://seoul.craigslist.org/edu/d/after-school-in-masan-15pm-mf-20-mil/7038174626.html

I seen that already. I have an after school gig lined up. It's 3 million but no housing, pension, insurance, severance. The hours are about the same as that gig though. I'm going to try to work at after school company and then supplement that with part time work at a hagwon and or do privates on the side. If I can clear 4 million a month without running myself ragged I'd be pretty happy. I definitely won't be living in luxury, but between that and my wife's job we should be moderately comfortable.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: oglop on January 02, 2020, 11:52:43 am
3m is ok for after school. be careful, as your schedule will likely change in the summer/winter and you'll be working in the morning, instead of the afternoon. that's the most annoying thing about after school programs as it ruins your other part time jobs
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: SuperDoodle23 on January 02, 2020, 11:55:05 am
3m is ok for after school. be careful, as your schedule will likely change in the summer/winter and you'll be working in the morning, instead of the afternoon. that's the most annoying thing about after school programs as it ruins your other part time jobs

Good point. I have also considered this as well. Ideally those other part time jobs will just be temporary anyways. I also can't pass up the chance to start working at a hagwon, do a really good job, and then just leave. It's kind of my fantasy.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on January 02, 2020, 12:33:00 pm
Alberta for example has a $15 minimum which works out to about 2.35million won a month for a 40 hour week.

In northern Alberta no one will work for under $18 dollars and rent is cheap as the economy failed. You can literally rent a hotel room for 400-500 a month which includes all utilities.
There might be a correlation there...

As has been demonstrated on this site by others, ESL now broadly pays the same as, and in some cases lower than manual labour jobs in factories, farms, construction sites etc. Yeah, you get to sit at a desk for hours but that factory worker stuffing chicken into boxes takes home the same pay as you or more...without that expensive degree you had to pay for as a requirement to get here.
True. Go home and work on an oil platform or in a coal mine or on a fishing trawler and you might make more as well. Or even here. You also might lose a finger, go missing at sea (and these days that doesn't even get you a shanty to be remembered with) or come down with the black lung.

There's also the fact that your entire industry can get shut down the next time some regulations or hazards pop up. Avian flu outbreak? Half of you are getting sent home and will have no job for the season.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: alexisalex on January 02, 2020, 12:33:35 pm
I might have missed this at some point in this thread or another so apologies...how is an after school program job paying 3 million?  Do you mean you have your regular day job plus after school for a total of 3 million?  Or is this just 3 million without housing?
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: SuperDoodle23 on January 02, 2020, 12:48:24 pm
I might have missed this at some point in this thread or another so apologies...how is an after school program job paying 3 million?  Do you mean you have your regular day job plus after school for a total of 3 million?  Or is this just 3 million without housing?

3 million is pretty standard for afterschool gigs. But keep in mind that is with no benefits at all. No housing, no insurance, no severance or pension. It basically amounts to someone making 2.2 or 2.3 with housing included. 
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: SuperDoodle23 on January 02, 2020, 12:57:04 pm
Oh and I'm not sure I buy the narrative that higher minimum wages make the cost of living go up. I have heard this argument from Republicans and conservatives my whole life and I don't buy it. Wages are significantly less than the value that workers are producing yet the cost of living is continuing to rise. I have seen rednecks in the south get in arguments because they are making 12 bucks an hour for back-breaking work but they are angry that another worker that is economically beneath them wants a higher bump in pay.  They aren't savy enough to direct their anger at the top and to point the finger at the people profiting from their labor. It's just much easier to crap on someone beneath.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Lazio on January 02, 2020, 01:44:42 pm
The wife's probably not content with the man making so little.

If the wife has a decent job and the MIL can help out taking care of the children (or if they aren't planning to have babies) then it's pretty okay. My friend makes under 3 million/month on an F-6 visa. He is not a teacher though but that's irrelevant. His wife has a great job making 100million+ a year including the year-end bonus. She even told him to quit his job and study Korean or whatever he wants.
I know it's not a common situation but if the wife also makes 2-3 million won, then it could work. And making that much is far from impossible.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 02, 2020, 01:56:56 pm
Universally across cultures women want men who earn more than they do. No matter how much they are pulling in.  Wealthy Beyonce married even wealthier Jay Z.

The only exception would be if the man is significantly better looking than the woman. 

But would you want to marry someone significantly worse looking than you?

Fact of the matter is most decent looking women won't accept a guy earning less than they do.

They'll be disgusted and think it is pathetic. And leave.

That's the way the world works.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: waygo0k on January 02, 2020, 02:05:39 pm
Oh and I'm not sure I buy the narrative that higher minimum wages make the cost of living go up.

It's the other way around. The increased cost of living is driving the increase in minimum wage.

But ESL wages however...(https://media.giphy.com/media/l0HlvtIPzPdt2usKs/giphy.gif)

Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: tylerthegloob on January 02, 2020, 02:18:19 pm
Oh and I'm not sure I buy the narrative that higher minimum wages make the cost of living go up.

It's the other way around. The increased cost of living is driving the increase in minimum wage.

But ESL wages however...

In the US, however... (https://m.usw.org/blog/2018/intro/Screenshot-2018-1-10-Top-charts-of-2017-12-charts-that-show-the-real-problems-policies-must-tackle-not-the-made-up-ones1.png)
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: SuperDoodle23 on January 02, 2020, 02:40:41 pm
That chart is  a perfect example of why I don't believe conservatives when they claim that higher minimum wage makes the cost of living go up. If that were the case then the reverse would need to be true. When cost of living and productivity goes up the minimum wage should have followed if there was a strong correlation. But corporations are bleeding everyone dry while wages have flatlined. The cost of living has already risen dramatically despite minimum wage not being all that high in the U.S. ( When I say it's not all that high I mean when you factor in inflation and productivity as  well as compare those numbers to the amount that other essential things such as real estate has risen in the past decade ) . If higher minimum wage increases the cost of living then why hasn't a low minimum wage suppressed the cost of living.

I'm trying to get my fellow ex-pats to see the flaws in capitalism, but I can read some of the replies and I'm guessing that there are a few of you that will want to dig your heals in despite the fact that there is a complete financial meltdown every 10 years and everyone just shrugs it off as normal.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: oglop on January 02, 2020, 02:46:39 pm
I might have missed this at some point in this thread or another so apologies...how is an after school program job paying 3 million?  Do you mean you have your regular day job plus after school for a total of 3 million?  Or is this just 3 million without housing?
3m without housing, but usually without other benefits too. however, you're only working for about 3-4 hours a day, leaving a lot of time to do other part time jobs too. after school jobs are a bit of a shit show though, so you've often got to put up with a lot of bullshit
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: SuperDoodle23 on January 02, 2020, 02:48:55 pm
I might have missed this at some point in this thread or another so apologies...how is an after school program job paying 3 million?  Do you mean you have your regular day job plus after school for a total of 3 million?  Or is this just 3 million without housing?
3m without housing, but usually without other benefits too. however, you're only working for about 3-4 hours a day, leaving a lot of time to do other part time jobs too. after school jobs are a bit of a shit show though, so you've often got to put up with a lot of bullshit

what kind of bullshit are you referring to?
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on January 02, 2020, 04:06:28 pm
That chart is  a perfect example of why I don't believe conservatives when they claim that higher minimum wage makes the cost of living go up. If that were the case then the reverse would need to be true. When cost of living and productivity goes up the minimum wage should have followed if there was a strong correlation. But corporations are bleeding everyone dry while wages have flatlined. The cost of living has already risen dramatically despite minimum wage not being all that high in the U.S. ( When I say it's not all that high I mean when you factor in inflation and productivity as  well as compare those numbers to the amount that other essential things such as real estate has risen in the past decade ) . If higher minimum wage increases the cost of living then why hasn't a low minimum wage suppressed the cost of living.

I'm trying to get my fellow ex-pats to see the flaws in capitalism, but I can read some of the replies and I'm guessing that there are a few of you that will want to dig your heals in despite the fact that there is a complete financial meltdown every 10 years and everyone just shrugs it off as normal.

It depends on the situation. For example, South Korea's rise in minimum wage has led to increased costs and has been harmful to small businesses, such as restaurants. The margins aren't great and doubling labor cost over 4 years is going to hurt them.

Now in other cases minimum wage has significantly fallen behind and there can be a case made that companies with higher margins have a wage scale that are exploitative.

As far as financial meltdowns, you have to compare capitalist economies to mixed to heavy socialist ones. The socialist ones aren't islands of prosperity by any means and have their own meltdowns or long-term malaises. You also have to consider countries that have high amounts of natural resources and low populations cannot apply the same principles to every other country.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on January 02, 2020, 05:22:41 pm
Wow lots of arguing about how to make 3-4m working 60 hours a week while inhaling 2.5pm in copious amounts and being on crowded trains smelling korean grandpas kimchi, soju, onion, garlic, ciggy medley breath. 

3.5 is  $3,000... 36K USD a year.  What is the average salary of a person with a bachelor's degree?
The average person with a bachelor's degree makes a median income of $70,200/year or $1,350.00/week.
https://www.creditdonkey.com/average-us-salary.html

I take it you don't know what an average means. $70,000 in the US would be how much someone with an in-demand degree like engineering would make, or a teacher with like 15-20 years of working for the same school district. I'm pretty sure most E-2's in Korea don't have engineering degrees or 20 years of teaching experience.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: oglop on January 02, 2020, 07:05:29 pm
I might have missed this at some point in this thread or another so apologies...how is an after school program job paying 3 million?  Do you mean you have your regular day job plus after school for a total of 3 million?  Or is this just 3 million without housing?
3m without housing, but usually without other benefits too. however, you're only working for about 3-4 hours a day, leaving a lot of time to do other part time jobs too. after school jobs are a bit of a shit show though, so you've often got to put up with a lot of bullshit

what kind of bullshit are you referring to?
i worked in AS programs for 3 years and my experience is

- kids are horrible. they dont want to be there. they don't care. you can't really discipline them as they'll complain to their parents, who will complain to the company, and you'll get in trouble. more likely, they'll quit and you'll also get blamed

- wages. had to file for unpaid wages a few times.

- they will try to screw you out of your severance pay

- lack of resources. wasn't even supplied with basic stuff like board markers in one job. this will depend on the company though

- your korean co-worker will be completely hit or miss. she'll be either lovely or batshit insane...never in between in my experience

but some people luck out with a great school, kids and co-worker. i would imagine now that grades one and two are back, conditions will improve a bit. however, i never really trusted AS programs at all, so i'd go through each contract with a fine tooth comb, and i also made sure all correspondence was done through email or text message - or i'd secretly voice record every meeting i'd have with the manager.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: JNM on January 02, 2020, 07:56:07 pm
Summary of the thread:

“Paying minimum wage means that those of us making more than minimum wage can’t afford to live.”

🧐
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: waygo0k on January 02, 2020, 08:01:18 pm
More like “ESL jobs in korea are now paying in the vicinity of minimum wage...not western minimum wage, Korean minimum wage”.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Cohort 2019 on January 02, 2020, 10:25:13 pm
"if you go back to teacher's college." Yes people with an education degree can get jobs easily in certain countries (probably only the US and UK and only very recently here in New Zealand) but most E-2s don't have an education degree. So that means retraining which costs money. Even if it's paid for and even if you do a one-year teaching degree you'd still have to do something to pay for rent and food and so on until you graduate. All your savings from Korea will be gone pretty quick. And then after all that hard work you end up with a "great" teaching job working probably 80 hours a week and making less money per month after you pay rent than you did at your "shitty" 40 hours a week job in Korea.

At the risk of becoming a Martino clone I will answer each of your points:
Probably only in the US/UK...
Yes, and the rest of Europe and other continents. There is a huge teacher shortage, except in Asia and Canada.

Going back to college, retraining costs money...
There are many govt. schemes in which you teach while you study and most of your tuition is paid for.

you end up with a "great" teaching job working probably 80 hours a week
I teach Full time=22 hours but I do have extra duties which can take up a whole week of 40-50 hours but that's because I want to do well and this is a new school. Many colleagues just show up to teach and go off and spend time with their kids and family after they're gone.

making less money per month after you pay rent than you did at your "shitty" 40 hours a week job in Korea.
Come on man, you know that is not true.  With the shortage our remuneration and value goes up incrementally and  I would expect to make significantly less than 3 million in Korea if I were 60 years old, let alone trying to retire there at age 70. 

1: If you love your life and prospects in Korea, then stay and retire there in an ageist society by all means.
2: If you are fed up with the cultural idiosyncrasies, job insecurity and the pollution and how they marginalise your skill set, then don't let your worries about finding work back home hold you back. There is a lot of work to be had in the EU or US.
3: If you want to retrain and find work in IT or HR, fine, but the point was made that your useless ESL experience could help you find other work by rephrasing some of our skills to fit an MBA mold.
Instead, I offered my insights and personal experiences to point ESL-lifers at a far easier opportunity: becoming a teacher back home. I simply wrote a few applications, then talked for 30 min. about teaching in Korea and was hired 1 hour later and started college that year. Between my leaving Korea and standing in front of a class again, just 5 weeks had gone by, which was many years ago. Now, the shortage has become acute and we know that we are going to have a huge shortage well into the  2050s. In the UK. student numbers will rise with 500.000 to 3 million next year and in the US. immigration is causing a huge demand for teachers as well. Why would you 'suffer' so many hardships in Korea, simply because you "love teaching" ? Come back home and help us help yourselves, because even after a few years you will make more than in Korea and eventually you will make that top bracket of $70.000-80.000 and all that in a nice suburb in the good ol' USA or the UK or in the EU.

USA 200.000 teachers and in the UK 20% shortage consistently for the past few years.

Teach in the UK programmes:
https://www.teachfirst.org.uk/training-programme
https://www.pointtopointeducation.com/instant-assessment/

vacancies:
https://www.tes.com/jobs/search?siteCountry=gb&locations=United%20Kingdom&experiences=Suitable%20for%20NQTs&keywords=&subjects=English

I don't know much about the US, but on 60 minutes this topic repeatedly resurfaces. If you are a UK citizen you can immediately start teaching while getting qualified, I am sure similar programmes must exist in the US for US citizens.

I found this opening for Phonics teaching assistent in the UK after 5 min. of browsing: http://teach-now.co.uk/job/early-years-teaching-assistant/
Quote
The school is looking for an enthusiastic individual to support in an Early Years class, Monday – Friday for the hours of 8:30am – 4:00pm. They are looking for someone who has experience and is confident working with phonics. The chosen candidate must be able to completely commit to the role, continuity is key.
Qualifications for this are not required but experience is ideal.

It simply cannot be true that it is hard to find a teaching job for an ESL-lifer. I am not that special and I found a sponsor school easily. If you cannot find anyone to fill your job openings as a school principal, then someone with years of experience is far more attractive than putting a Syrian refugee in class. (Another govt. scheme of training people to become primary school teachers.)
Quote
Amsterdam city council has asked civil servants and Syrian refugees with teaching experience to step into the classroom because of a teacher shortage at the start of the school year.

The Dutch capital has been among the areas worst affected by a lack of teachers nationwide.

About 15,000 pupils were sent home from schools in Amsterdam in the past six months because their teacher was sick or absent, while about 8,000 primary school children are yet to be assigned a teacher for the new year.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: gogators! on January 03, 2020, 04:07:36 am
Alberta for example has a $15 minimum which works out to about 2.35million won a month for a 40 hour week.

In northern Alberta no one will work for under $18 dollars and rent is cheap as the economy failed. You can literally rent a hotel room for 400-500 a month which includes all utilities.
There might be a correlation there...

As has been demonstrated on this site by others, ESL now broadly pays the same as, and in some cases lower than manual labour jobs in factories, farms, construction sites etc. Yeah, you get to sit at a desk for hours but that factory worker stuffing chicken into boxes takes home the same pay as you or more...without that expensive degree you had to pay for as a requirement to get here.
True. Go home and work on an oil platform or in a coal mine or on a fishing trawler and you might make more as well. Or even here. You also might lose a finger, go missing at sea (and these days that doesn't even get you a shanty to be remembered with) or come down with the black lung.

There's also the fact that your entire industry can get shut down the next time some regulations or hazards pop up. Avian flu outbreak? Half of you are getting sent home and will have no job for the season.
So when your boy trump says that the US economy is stronger than it's ever been, you're disagreeing?
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: SuperDoodle23 on January 03, 2020, 08:03:17 am


As far as financial meltdowns, you have to compare capitalist economies to mixed to heavy socialist ones. The socialist ones aren't islands of prosperity by any means and have their own meltdowns or long-term malaises. You also have to consider countries that have high amounts of natural resources and low populations cannot apply the same principles to every other country.

We are not just looking at economics here. We are also factoring in quality of life. The stock market is crushing it right now in the U.S.A. Can you honestly think that this has an impact on the average American worker...  Unless you are one of those gullible conservatives that still believe in fairy tale trickle-down economics. But we see how these big corporations are just buying back stocks and increasing their own wealth instead of increasing wages. If this wasn't the case then so many citizens wouldn't need to travel across the planet just to find a decent job that doesn't treat their employees like commodities but I digress.

Also, If you look at countries with higher socialist bents such as Norway, Denmark, Sweden then you can see that they are generally much happier and have a better quality of life compared to the rest of the world. If you look at South American countries which tend to lean socialist and say " Oh look at Venezeula.. Clearly socialism doesn't work " then you also have to factor in how much the United States is out there meddling with these smaller nations and factor that in. When you have the CIA constantly mucking about and being involved in keeping foreign nations unstable you no longer have the right to look at those socialist countries in a vacuum. Hell, the United States sent young men to die in droves at the mere mention of communism despite it being a world away in some cases. At any rate, when you point to these socialist countries you also have to check and see if the U.S isn't out there messing with their elections, forking with their economy, or all-around trying to act like the all-powerful big brother to these smaller nations. Too many people want to point at countries like Venezuela as an example that socialism doesn't work but conveniently leave out all the ways that the United States keeps everyone else down.  And I say that as an American. What the American govenrment is doing around the world should be paintfully obvious to anyone paying attention.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 03, 2020, 08:46:29 am
You sound like an uninformed conspiracy theory nut.

Median wages for white males and Asian males in the USA are very high. (Do you know what a median is?)

More Koreans are trying to get into the US than Americans trying to get into Korea. (Look at the percentages.)

Venezuela, North Korea, etc., ruined themselves through bad governance. It's not the  fault of America their economies are crap.

America: the land of opportunity.

IF you're not a loser.

The way capitalism works is you are rewarded according to the value you provide others.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 03, 2020, 08:59:47 am
Average wage of an American nurse practitioner: $114k.

For the service they provide they are compensated accordingly.

Is it impossible to get that job?

No.

But it's not easy.

It requires study.

It's doable, however (depending on one's level of drive and intelligence that is).
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on January 03, 2020, 09:05:14 am
Alberta for example has a $15 minimum which works out to about 2.35million won a month for a 40 hour week.

In northern Alberta no one will work for under $18 dollars and rent is cheap as the economy failed. You can literally rent a hotel room for 400-500 a month which includes all utilities.
There might be a correlation there...

As has been demonstrated on this site by others, ESL now broadly pays the same as, and in some cases lower than manual labour jobs in factories, farms, construction sites etc. Yeah, you get to sit at a desk for hours but that factory worker stuffing chicken into boxes takes home the same pay as you or more...without that expensive degree you had to pay for as a requirement to get here.
True. Go home and work on an oil platform or in a coal mine or on a fishing trawler and you might make more as well. Or even here. You also might lose a finger, go missing at sea (and these days that doesn't even get you a shanty to be remembered with) or come down with the black lung.

There's also the fact that your entire industry can get shut down the next time some regulations or hazards pop up. Avian flu outbreak? Half of you are getting sent home and will have no job for the season.
So when your boy trump says that the US economy is stronger than it's ever been, you're disagreeing?
The rest is just a comparison of the costs-benefits of ESL vs. blue collar jobs that have comparable wages (or higher) but also entail physical risk.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: SuperDoodle23 on January 03, 2020, 09:15:48 am

The way capitalism works is you are rewarded according to the value you provide others.

Is that why Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton have hundreds of millions of dollars and teachers are scraping by in the states? Stop with your nonsense. Capitalism rewards exploitation. Those who know how to profit off the backs of others are the ones that make the most money. Literally stealing from the benefit of others labor and extracting that value from other people's hard work is the backbone of capitalism.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on January 03, 2020, 09:28:48 am
We are not just looking at economics here. We are also factoring in quality of life. The stock market is crushing it right now in the U.S.A. Can you honestly think that this has an impact on the average American worker... 
Given that the Great Depression and other stock market downturns have led to recessions that have affected American workers, and during boom cycles employment and new industries have emerged like in the 90s, yes.

Quote
Unless you are one of those gullible conservatives that still believe in fairy tale trickle-down economics.
I don't believe in trickle-down as an answer, but yes, stuff does trickle-down, whether it's good or bad. In boom times that can substantially improve people's lives, in times of marginal growth that can be pennies on the dollar.

Quote
. If this wasn't the case then so many citizens wouldn't need to travel across the planet just to find a decent job that doesn't treat their employees like commodities but I digress.
There's plenty of jobs back home if you are willing to engage in blue collar labor. But many are unwilling to do that because of physical laziness or because it lacks sex appeal to their friend group.

Also, by any objective measure, your life right now, even as someone making mediocre wages, is incredibly good compared to most of humanity right now, and nearly all of it in history. Your life expectancy is into the 70s. You enjoy control over your climate. 3 squares of food choice a day. Hours spent in leisure. Rapid transport across the land. Programs galore are available.

But some people can't see that. All they can see is that someone has more than them and it makes them jealous, envious, and angry. And they don't think they should earn it, they should have it given to them. Yes, the rich can be exploitative and we need guards against that and to take care that low-income does not equal impoverished., but the low-income are not some inherently noble bunch either. What's remarkable is that these types who hate the rich constantly bitch about them and trash their lifestyle, but then turn around and want more.

Quote
Also, If you look at countries with higher socialist bents such as Norway, Denmark, Sweden
1) You're an idiot if you think those countries are socialist. The underpinnings of their economy are the free market, trade, and economic innovation.
2) Those countries all have populations a fraction of the United States'.
3) In the case of Sweden and Norway, they have a relatively large amount of natural resources to population
4) They didn't spend 45 years policing the globe and keeping other countries safe from Communism. If they had been left on their own, almost all of their economy would have been dumped into defense for 45 years trying to stave off Soviet encroachment.

Quote
Oh look at Venezeula.. Clearly socialism doesn't work " then you also have to factor in how much the United States is out there meddling with these smaller nations and factor that in
Venezuela is a basket case because they tied their entire economy to oil and made intensive government spending decisions based on the assumption that high oil prices would remain stable. Whether that counts as socialism or not is up for debate. I'm rather indifferent as that's a mistake any country can make, whether they are capitalist or socialist or fascist-anarchist or Commie-Nazi.

Quote
then you also have to factor in how much the United States is out there meddling with these smaller nations
Well according to the left, Russia is meddling with the United States, so everything that is happening isn't even because of the United States then, if you accept this and go along with your premise.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 03, 2020, 09:31:07 am
Is that why Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton have hundreds of millions of dollars and teachers are scraping by in the states? Stop with your nonsense. Capitalism rewards exploitation. Those who know how to profit off the backs of others are the ones that make the most money. Literally stealing from the benefit of others labor and extracting that value from other people's hard work is the backbone of capitalism.

Teachers in the USA are well paid, generally speaking. Including benefits, which is money paid into their retirement account, etc., they average over $100k per year. While working only 180 days per year. That's more days not working than working.

Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton didn't "steal" money. Consumers willingly gave it to them for their perfume lines , DJ performances, television appearances, etc.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on January 03, 2020, 09:34:37 am
Is that why Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton have hundreds of millions of dollars and teachers are scraping by in the states? Stop with your nonsense. Capitalism rewards exploitation. Those who know how to profit off the backs of others are the ones that make the most money. Literally stealing from the benefit of others labor and extracting that value from other people's hard work is the backbone of capitalism.
Is this really about the best system that can be conceived or is this something more personal and visceral for you? Isn't this just the reverse of some conservative pointing to some bum or welfare queen and using that odd example to disprove an entire concept?

What other system do you propose that allows one to profit off of their own innovation and creativity? The Bureaucratic Socialist Republic isn't going to allow that either. Instead everything just goes to government officials and apparatchiks. The thing is that power is what causes exploitation, not your economic system. Any system under the sun will concentrate wealth and inherited privilege in the hands of the powerful. If you aren't dominated by corporate executives you are dominated by Party HQ and 1000 inspectors and commissars.

Take wealth and power and give it to the teachers and you'll just get a tyranny of teachers instead of a tyranny of CEOs/celebrities.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: SuperDoodle23 on January 03, 2020, 09:42:05 am
Is that why Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton have hundreds of millions of dollars and teachers are scraping by in the states? Stop with your nonsense. Capitalism rewards exploitation. Those who know how to profit off the backs of others are the ones that make the most money. Literally stealing from the benefit of others labor and extracting that value from other people's hard work is the backbone of capitalism.

Teachers in the USA are well paid, generally speaking. Including benefits, which is money paid into their retirement account, etc., they average over $100k per year. While working only 180 days per year. That's more days not working than working.

Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton didn't "steal" money. Consumers willingly gave it to them for their perfume lines , DJ performances, television appearances, etc.
Is that why Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton have hundreds of millions of dollars and teachers are scraping by in the states? Stop with your nonsense. Capitalism rewards exploitation. Those who know how to profit off the backs of others are the ones that make the most money. Literally stealing from the benefit of others labor and extracting that value from other people's hard work is the backbone of capitalism.

Teachers in the USA are well paid, generally speaking. Including benefits, which is money paid into their retirement account, etc., they average over $100k per year. While working only 180 days per year. That's more days not working than working.

Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton didn't "steal" money. Consumers willingly gave it to them for their perfume lines , DJ performances, television appearances, etc.
Is that why Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton have hundreds of millions of dollars and teachers are scraping by in the states? Stop with your nonsense. Capitalism rewards exploitation. Those who know how to profit off the backs of others are the ones that make the most money. Literally stealing from the benefit of others labor and extracting that value from other people's hard work is the backbone of capitalism.

Teachers in the USA are well paid, generally speaking. Including benefits, which is money paid into their retirement account, etc., they average over $100k per year. While working only 180 days per year. That's more days not working than working.

.

How does one even argue with this? 

Ok guys. Carry on.  Peace.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Titus Groan on January 03, 2020, 01:01:23 pm
 "Teachers in the USA are well paid, generally speaking. Including benefits, which is money paid into their retirement account, etc., they average over $100k per year. While working only 180 days per year. That's more days not working than working."

 I think that $100,000 figure is somewhat disingenuous: I'm sure SOME teachers reach that level (everything included) after many years of teaching/seniority, but I'm pretty sure most don't.
 
Yes, it can be a good job when the hours worked/vacation time is considered, but many teachers in many US States have to do a lot of unpaid extra work within their respective school systems to maintain a viable educational standard...

I think the following list is probably a more realistic indication of the salary picture.

https://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state/
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 03, 2020, 01:08:50 pm
To calculate total remuneration (meaning including retirement benefits, etc.) double the salaries you see.

So yeah, six figures.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on January 03, 2020, 07:17:09 pm
If you think teaching in the US is well-paid and easy and gives you a lot of vacation time, I have a bridge in Brooklyn you may be interested in.

People don't stay in teaching or take teaching jobs in the first place because it's notoriously difficult and underpaid. School districts are now hiring teachers from the Phillipines rather than pay American teachers better or make working conditions better.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: JNM on January 03, 2020, 07:49:02 pm
Is that why Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton have hundreds of millions of dollars and teachers are scraping by in the states? Stop with your nonsense. Capitalism rewards exploitation. Those who know how to profit off the backs of others are the ones that make the most money. Literally stealing from the benefit of others labor and extracting that value from other people's hard work is the backbone of capitalism.

Teachers in the USA are well paid, generally speaking. Including benefits, which is money paid into their retirement account, etc., they average over $100k per year. While working only 180 days per year. That's more days not working than working.

Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton didn't "steal" money. Consumers willingly gave it to them for their perfume lines , DJ performances, television appearances, etc.

Both of them started with wealthy parents.

That’s the key to making money.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 03, 2020, 08:04:15 pm
The majority of American millionaires are self made.

The majority of American billionaires are self made.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Cohort 2019 on January 04, 2020, 03:57:26 am
https://howmuch.net/sources/average-teacher-salary-by-state

It's not a copious amount but 81,000 average wage in NY isn't entirely bad either.
 Top Ten States Where Teachers Earn the Most
1. New York: $81,613

2. Alaska: $80,627

3. Connecticut: $78,567

4. California: $76,523

5. Massachusetts: $75,720

6. New Jersey: $72,460

7. Oregon: $69,643

8. Virginia: $68,707

9. Maryland: $67,173

10. Rhode Island: $67,050

(https://cdn.howmuch.net/articles/elementary_school-teachers-salary-ea13.png)
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: VanIslander on January 04, 2020, 04:03:15 am
Wow. Traditionally Democratic Party states have better paid teachers.

I ain't no rocket scientist, nor American, but the politics is clear.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: KimDuHan on January 04, 2020, 05:04:47 am
Wow. Traditionally Democratic Party states have better paid teachers.

I ain't no rocket scientist, nor American, but the politics is clear.

Which states have the highest cost of living though?

Alaska vs Alabama is quite the gap in prices.

Southern states generally don’t have to deal with colder weather and have longer growing seasons.

Korea is expensive because the population is quite large for the land mass and winter stops almost all domestic production of food.

Teachers in Korea should at least earn 4.0 million a month politics aside.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Cohort 2019 on January 04, 2020, 05:45:31 am
Quote
학원 강사의 평균연봉은 1900만~2200만원을 오간다.May 15, 2017

Korean hakwon teachers average out at 19-22 mill per year or...14-20 mill per month. ;D I call bs on that video tbh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVmW3hbJr8g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLJ9Net_StM
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 04, 2020, 05:57:55 am
How many hours are the Korean hagwon teachers working? I assume many are on short, part time hours with that being just one revenue source for them while another is off the books private tutoring they do on the side on their own, etc.

Leaponover says he pays his Korean teacher three million a month. (No other hagwon owner posting here spoke on that.)
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 04, 2020, 06:20:06 am
In the 1990s, Son Joo-eun was a much sought-after tutor offering only a select few affluent students tips on how to score well in the national college exam. Having grown up poor and landed a place at the elite Seoul National University, he easily took home 50 million won ($47,000) from his tutoring work, enough to buy a standard two-bed room house in Seoul back then, each month.

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20170908000667

The business has since taken a downward turn, as competition thickened and saturation neared in the online test-prep services market.




Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on January 04, 2020, 06:20:58 am
Cohort those are average salaries. A first year teacher would get $30,000 to $45,000 a year. 70-80k would be for someone with many years of experience. Talking about salaries for long-term teachers is completely pointless when most E-2's don't even have a teaching degree in the first place. And why the hell was someone bringing up nurse practitioners, a nurse practitioner needs a master's degree in nursing.

It would be great if people here could at least try to somehow give relevant advice based on reality instead of spreading grass is greener bullshit.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 04, 2020, 06:33:05 am
Most posters in this thread aren't first year teachers. We're men getting up in age. I'm simply showing how far below average men working as English teachers abroad are compared to their similarly aged counterparts in the USA. Career progression matters. Otherwise you're losing in life. Sure, it's not something we want to hear, but it's something to consider. Denial as a coping mechanism is dangerous.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: KimDuHan on January 04, 2020, 06:49:27 am
Cohort those are average salaries. A first year teacher would get $30,000 to $45,000 a year. 70-80k would be for someone with many years of experience. Talking about salaries for long-term teachers is completely pointless when most E-2's don't even have a teaching degree in the first place. And why the hell was someone bringing up nurse practitioners, a nurse practitioner needs a master's degree in nursing.

It would be great if people here could at least try to somehow give relevant advice based on reality instead of spreading grass is greener bullshit.

What would you compare Korean ESL teachers too?

Based on wages it would be similar to McDonald’s or Burger King workers in Canada.

Comparing ESL teachers to western teachers is fair as most are E2 teachers that require a university/college degree.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: stoat on January 04, 2020, 06:52:27 am
Quote
In the 1990s, Son Joo-eun was a much sought-after tutor offering only a select few affluent students tips on how to score well in the national college exam. Having grown up poor and landed a place at the elite Seoul National University, he easily took home 50 million won ($47,000) from his tutoring work, enough to buy a standard two-bed room house in Seoul back then, each month.

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20170908000667

The business has since taken a downward turn, as competition thickened and saturation neared in the online test-prep services market.

Yes, interesting that he's advocating for change, after he's made all his money and the business is in a downward spiral.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Cohort 2019 on January 04, 2020, 08:18:34 am
Cohort those are average salaries. A first year teacher would get $30,000 to $45,000 a year. 70-80k would be for someone with many years of experience. Talking about salaries for long-term teachers is completely pointless ...

My first few years were indeed pretty tough because I hadn't saved up much in Korea and only made the (NQT) starting teacher's pay of 2,4 mill, but I received so much support from the govt. and extra funding from the school that I could live comfortably. After my B.ed degree I immediately got that 'senior'  level you mentioned because I skipped a few pay scales.

When I read about how all of you capable, experienced teachers are getting taken up the bumhole on a daily basis, I just wonder why you would let them. Just come back home where every co-worker, principal and parent appreciates and respects your dedication and passion for good education. You are all great teachers and your skills are wasted away languishing marginalised in Asia.

 I'll stop posting my 'teach back home' mantra but I am not wrong in saying that anyone could do it no matter how old you are, I even had a 60-year-old classmate. It's just a simple matter of applying to a school and getting hired based on your many years of experience. I had never taught high school but still got hired on the spot and all I had to do was to promise to manage my classes and to start my degree (all paid for) in Sept.

Your years of ESL experience are invaluable! 
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: alexisalex on January 04, 2020, 09:30:15 am
Keep posting Cohort!  It's good to get a more positive view on things.

To confirm, you left Korea and got an ESL teaching job in Europe without a PGCE.  The school/company you worked for paid for you to get your PGCE?  Is that right?
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 04, 2020, 06:32:14 pm
I'm trying to get my fellow ex-pats to see the flaws in capitalism, but I can read some of the replies and I'm guessing that there are a few of you that will want to dig your heals in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5ZDgz8MO1M
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Cohort 2019 on January 04, 2020, 06:39:18 pm
Thanks for the kind words, but MayorHagger is right, I think I have gotten the message out, at least to you. Yes, but I had to completely start over so I had to do a 4- years Bachelors of Education first, going to class 2 nights a week, working 4 days at an inner city school, predominantly disadvantaged kids who had bullied away several teachers before me. They were lovely kids btw. I had no problem teaching them, the previous teachers must have been absolutely unfit for purpose.

I am in my last 6 months of wrapping up my Masters (PGCE), after which I am going to ask for one of the highest scales, simply because there is a dire shortage of M.eds that are qualified to teach the highest exam classes (6th Form). I am not an extraordinary person and I feel extremely lucky to have such wonderful colleagues and students, being valued especially for my ESL experience and being allowed to implement all of that in my daily practice and literally all I am doing is banking on my recollections of those years together with you guys in Korea, sitting at a Hof or eating BBQ, talking about how f 'd everything at school is and how we could help our students better.

I have 'longterm' teachers as Mayorhagger calls them show up for class, open up the books, explain grammar, assign homework and lock the doors and disappear off to home leaving the kids struggling and hating English. Opposite to that you have our ESL teaching style, which makes class interesting and even fun and a few 17-year-olds said to their mentor that 'even when you're dead tired, you want to go to his class'. Thing is, the only colleagues that get me, are Brits or American teachers, because native Europeans are just so reliant on their books and grammar. Now, to each their own of course but your ESL experience is a specialty that is in demand because of immigration and the teacher's shortages everywhere. I do not know how to get into teaching in the States but there is a huge shortage there, just find a website where schools post vacancies and start applying or calling principals. I have shown in this thread that it only took me 5 min. to find a Phonics teaching position at an Early years school in London who specifically only asked for someone with experience, no qualifications.

Similarly to this, when I got back home there were only 10 vacancies in January, now there are 50-70 for Teacher of English positions alone, and the largest predicted spike is going to be in 2025. And this is in the middle of the academic year with 3 semesters still to go in a tiny country with 500.000 students. The UK will grow to 3 million students next year and a 17 % shortage of teachers and currently has 200 openings (most seem for September? https://www.tes.com/jobs/search?siteCountry=gb&sort=&locations=United%20Kingdom&keywords=Teacher%20of%20English  ) which is a tell-tale sign to me that if you are already posting in January to hire teachers for the new year in September, something must be terribly wrong in the UK. Surely there must be a school desperate enough to read your application and consider it? January is a shit time to have to look for sub teachers because 1: there aren't any 2: the ones you can get are looking for work for a reason (lemons) so having a fresh, experienced ESL teacher like me/us must have felt like a godsend.

My introduction letter only said that I had taught for 10 years in Korea at this and that school and I had a glowing recommendation letter attached to it. If you work at EPIK, just take a pic of you and the kids in the class all seated neatly in rows and you teaching something professional looking, if you teach at a hakwon, just take a picture of you standing in front of the blackboard or if it is a kindy show them you interacting with the kids on the floor.

I asked the principals later why they had chosen me over the other fully qualified applicants, and most of them said that they liked my enthusiasm and passion for teaching because I had taught in Korea for such a long time. So, I was merely being friendly and professional during my interview, but they assumed (correctly) that my having gone abroad also meant that I was willing to go the extra mile and would not easily give up on the kids.  It was also appreciated that I was knowledgeable on certain aspects of our profession because I also talked passionately about how I use a lot of conversation practice in class. I was friendly, open and honest about my lack of formal training, but also interested to learn from other people to improve myself. They liked all of it and it's basically who we are and how we work isn't it? Because if you managed to stick around for so long as we have in such an atrocious environment, you sure know how to be quick on your feet and become professional real fast.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: NorthStar on January 04, 2020, 07:08:22 pm
Thanks for the kind words, but MayorHagger is right, I think I have gotten the message out, at least to you. Yes, but I had to completely start over so I had to do a 4- years Bachelors of Education first, going to class 2 nights a week, working 4 days at an inner city school, predominantly disadvantaged kids who had bullied away several teachers before me. They were lovely kids btw. I had no problem teaching them, the previous teachers must have been absolutely unfit for purpose.

I am in my last 6 months of wrapping up my Masters (PGCE), after which I am going to ask for one of the highest scales, simply because there is a dire shortage of M.eds that are qualified to teach the highest exam classes (6th Form). I am not an extraordinary person and I feel extremely lucky to have such wonderful colleagues and students, being valued especially for my ESL experience and being allowed to implement all of that in my daily practice and literally all I am doing is banking on my recollections of those years together with you guys in Korea, sitting at a Hof or eating BBQ, talking about how f 'd everything at school is and how we could help our students better.

I have 'longterm' teachers as Mayorhagger calls them show up for class, open up the books, explain grammar, assign homework and lock the doors and disappear off to home leaving the kids struggling and hating English. Opposite to that you have our ESL teaching style, which makes class interesting and even fun and a few 17-year-olds said to their mentor that 'even when you're dead tired, you want to go to his class'. Thing is, the only colleagues that get me, are Brits or American teachers, because native Europeans are just so reliant on their books and grammar. Now, to each their own of course but your ESL experience is a specialty that is in demand because of immigration and the teacher's shortages everywhere. I do not know how to get into teaching in the States but there is a huge shortage there, just find a website where schools post vacancies and start applying or calling principals. I have shown in this thread that it only took me 5 min. to find a Phonics teaching position at an Early years school in London who specifically only asked for someone with experience, no qualifications.

Similarly to this, when I got back home there were only 10 vacancies in January, now there are 50-70, and the largest predicted spike is going to be in 2025. And this is in a tiny country with 500.000 students. The UK will grow to 3 million students next year and a 17 % shortage of teachers and currently has 200 openings (most seem for September? https://www.tes.com/jobs/search?siteCountry=gb&sort=&locations=United%20Kingdom&keywords=Teacher%20of%20English  ) which is a tell-tale sign to me that if you are already posting in January to hire teachers for the new year in September, something must be terribly wrong in the UK. Surely there must be a school desperate enough to read your application and consider it? January is a shit time to have to look for sub teachers because 1: there aren't any 2: the ones you can get are looking for work for a reason (lemons) so having a fresh, experienced ESL teacher like me/us must have felt like a godsend.

My introduction letter only said that I had taught for 10 years in Korea at this and that school and I had a glowing recommendation letter attached to it. If you work at EPIK, just take a pic of you and the kids in the class all seated neatly in rows and you teaching something professional looking, if you teach at a hakwon, just take a picture of you standing in front of the blackboard or if it is a kindy show them you interacting with the kids on the floor.

I asked the principals later why they had chosen me over the other fully qualified applicants, and most of them said that they liked my enthusiasm and passion for teaching because I had taught in Korea for such a long time. So, I was merely being friendly and professional during my interview, but they assumed (correctly) that my having gone abroad also meant that I was willing to go the extra mile and would not easily give up on the kids.  It was also appreciated that I was knowledgeable on certain aspects of our profession because I also talked passionately about how I use a lot of conversation practice in class. I was friendly, open and honest about my lack of formal training, but also interested to learn from other people to improve myself. They liked all of it and it's basically who we are and how we work isn't it? Because if you managed to stick around for so long as we have in such an atrocious environment, you sure know how to be quick on your feet and become professional real fast.

All good stuff, man. 

The US....all depends on the mighty GPA.  I looked into alternative ways for getting into the classroom (licensed) but...my GPA was too low.  I did great my first 2 years in college...Dean's List and all.  But...I joined a fraternity and the GPA took a major dive.  Most these types of programs want a minimum of 2.5 (in the U.S.)..no exceptions.  Mine was 2.48.

I talked with people and despite my experience and actual love for the job, they could not help. 

...good old U.S. of A...hurting for teachers. 
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: stoat on January 04, 2020, 08:01:55 pm
Regarding whether to teach here or at home, it's all about the kind of job you want to do.

1) If you want to teach adults you can make more money teaching adults here. - I'm not talking about the bog standard split shift YBM/Pagoda job
2) If you want to teach small groups of kids in a non regulated way and be able to negotiate your salary/teaching times, it's better here.
3) if you want to teach large classes of kids in the state sector, it's better back home if you want to do it long time and progress up the salary scale.  However proper International schools here would have a better financial package.
4) If you want to teach university age students conditions are generally better here, money not.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Cohort 2019 on January 04, 2020, 10:49:10 pm
I talked with people and despite my experience and actual love for the job, they could not help. 

...good old U.S. of A...hurting for teachers.

Wow, that sucks, man, but don't give up yet. First of all, that sounds like the worst thing you can do if your country is 200.000 teachers short so perhaps look at this https://www.teachercertificationdegrees.com/become/#choose

But as an American, you know better than I how your govt. is working on getting as many candidates as possible licensed.  You could also apply anywhere for an ESL job in Europe (Spain, Italy, Germany, Hungary) and start an evening course there. Once you have an education related BA degree, you, as an American, can apply to any job in the USA or UK as well. Look, no school is going to publicly advertise they are looking for unqualified teachers, although I found that Phonics one which would be an excellent way in I think, but once you're on the ground and people get to know you everybody will be more than happy to help a fellow teacher out. You have simply no idea how difficult it is to find good teachers of English, let alone science or Maths teachers. All those principals are in touch with each other trying to get people from literally anywhere. There is even talk of putting ordinary people in classes, teaching them 'real-life' skills such as baking bread or planting tomatoes.  :rolleyes:

It's surprising to hear the US has such strict guidelines, but there are a lot of private language institutes there as well you could try. Whether it is because Canada has made it so easy to get licensed or because they do not want to invest in education,it is weird because in Europe we are panicking. I remember in 2018 this one international school for expat kids couldn't find a native speaker for a whole 6 months. I will post once I see such ads again but indeed they are relatively uncommon. I know that that one Canadian teacher had a rough time finding a job back home in Canada but I had a completely opposite experience. People were really interested and intrigued.

https://www.eslbase.com/jobs/spain/

https://www.wantedinrome.com/classified/jobs-vacant

This one, again found in 5 min. of searching, has similar req. as for Epik.
https://www.wantedinrome.com/classified/english-teachers-required-in-rome-immediate-start-2-2.html

https://easymilano.com/search-results/?ad_title=english+teacher&cat_id=&location=


Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Observer on January 05, 2020, 12:59:29 am
I have to say I find Cohort's posts and almost unbearable positivity a strange thing on this generally embittered forum.  It's not unwelcome, but I do think his (?) posts aren't terribly relevant to most people here.

For the relatively few non-UK people who teach in Korea (or China or Japan, whatever) who are fortunate enough to have EU work authorization, I suppose he makes fair points. I believe he works in the Netherlands, right? I was there last summer. I'd love to have a job there, certainly. It's a wonderful country. However, as an American with zero connection to the country, I'm not going to be hired by anyone, regardless of qualifications or experience. This goes for pretty much the whole EU.
Quote
This one, again found in 5 min. of searching, has similar req. as for Epik.
https://www.wantedinrome.com/classified/english-teachers-required-in-rome-immediate-start-2-2.html
It didn't take me 5 minutes of reading that post to see the part about 'working papers or visa a must!' Not exactly similar to EPIK, is it?

Americans and Canadians are the majority of posters on this forum and we aren't getting jobs of any kind, anywhere in the EU without a heck of a lot of trouble, marrying a local, or a huge stack of qualifications and home country experience in order to work at real international schools. If Cohort can show some evidence to the contrary, please do.

As for replicating his happy tale of support, remuneration and ease of employment in the US, I'm sorry to say I just don't think he gets it. You cannot just call up principals and say, hey, I've taught ESL for 5 years in Korea, can you hire me to work in your school while you pay me to get my teaching qualification? If that really does work in the EU, well, again, congratulations, but as with health care, we're a bit behind.

I am going to go back fairly shortly, but my path requires me to save up, pay for tuition at a local university, spend around 2 years getting an MA in teaching, and then finally get a license AFTER that. Exactly zero USD will be prepaid by any local school district, they'd be insane to do such a thing. I won't probably even step into a US classroom until I've done 2 full semesters of coursework in the MA program, and this is with about 8 years of experience teaching in Asia. You have to go through the system. The shortcuts and 'alternative paths' do exist, but they're narrow and particular from state to state and basically all have substantial drawbacks, restrictions or limitations. My co worker now got an entry license from Utah but she can't transfer or renew it, because it was a loophole and they just closed it. Everyone knows about Teachnow and TeacherReady, they're almost as worthless as they sound.

The reason the US is hurting for teachers is because it's often a poorly paid and overworked life there. You may have heard about the teacher strikes in various states in the last couple years. Read some American teacher forums and see what they say...it's not pretty. I'm getting my license and coming right back over here, I'm not interested in that life.

Quote
there are a lot of private language institutes there as well you could try.
HAHAHA. Have you ever even been in the US? I worked in three different examples of those, at the same time actually. Those jobs are garbage. No benefits, semester to semester contracts, located halfway across the city from each other so you spend hours commuting. Three together and I was making about half what I make now and barely had any time off. When you did get time off it was unpaid. I was an adjunct university instructor in 2 different colleges doing actually very good teaching, kids and staff liked me, my reward was nothing more than a contract extension. No raise, no security, no benefits.

The ONLY route to any decent job in ESL in the US is through an education degree that you have finance yourself, and a license to teach elementary or secondary. That's it. I'm very happy the Netherlands has such an enlightened attitude to education and supporting its citizens, but it doesn't do me or most others any good at all to read about it here. We can do nothing but envy you.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Cohort 2019 on January 05, 2020, 02:07:49 am
Wow, so sorry to hear. It's not just here but the same all over Europe and with a UK citizenship you'd absolutely have no trouble working across the EU.

So incredibly stupid that the US doesn't provide more support to aspiring teachers. It is utterly unimaginably shortsighted of the Edu. Dept. knowing how we're in such a mad scramble to fill vacancies already and it's only 2020...I'll get back to you on that, surely some schools should be interested in native speakers for the next year. Screw the US school boards then!

Quote
I am going to go back fairly shortly, but my path requires me to save up, pay for tuition at a local university, spend around 2 years getting an MA in teaching, and then finally get a license AFTER that.

Please keep us updated!
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on January 05, 2020, 08:49:15 am
Yeah you can notice that Cohort is leaving out a lot of details or fudging over stuff. I didn't even catch that he wasn't teaching in the UK even though he's talking as if he were, and is recommending that even Americans should go teach in the UK. If you think US immigration laws sound bad, they're even worse in the UK. All kinds of minimum income requirements and savings requirements even if you're married to a Brit.

Anyway if you guys think I'm being too dour, I'm about to start a teaching job here in New Zealand. I've been here since February 2018. Fortunately if you have a bachelor's degree of any kind you can do a one-year graduate teaching degree (not a master's degree, it's basically a top-up to your bachelor's) which I did during 2019. The degree cost quite a bit of my Korean savings because new residents can't get a year of free tuition like Kiwis can. For the last year and a half I had to do casual work which was the ONLY thing available, which sucked, I had a good amount of free time to do classwork but I was lucky to make like $1200 US a month. And I had to do three months of unpaid internships which cut more into my savings. Now I'm basically broke but I'll start a new job next week which will pay about what I was making in Korea except for the fact that I now have to pay rent, so I'll end up making less. Most jobs don't pay much here, even teaching, and rents keep going up, but at least I live in the one part of NZ that seems kind of affordable.

Anyway, for all the people still living in Korea who haven't been back home in years and are spreading misinformation about Korea and about back home, and all the people who went back home and are spreading misinformation about Korea and back home, either you know you're lying or you're painfully deluded. It's pretty obvious to the rest of us when you're bullshitting, but most people here just stay silent about it and either like the drama or don't want to get flamed by bullshitters who can't stand being talked back to.

Just keep in mind that most E-2's are like 22 to 25 years old and this is their first time leaving their home country for very long. For many of them it's their first real job. The vast majority of them do not have education degrees. At some point, unlike the bullshitter lifers, they will go home. They will find it tough. They'll find that millenials are happy to pay 50% or more of their salary on rent, and so everyone else is expected to be happy with low wages and high rent as well. They'll find that the "booming economy" back home means retail or Uber or call center work. They'll find that retail is basically heavy labor now. They'll find that all those years of experience in Korea don't count for much. So yeah they probably will want to retrain, which costs time and money. Eventually they'll make the same amount they were making in Korea, but now they'll be paying rent. It'll be years before they're making more than Korea money after paying rent. And it will be worth it, because you're not in crowded, dirty Korea with its poisonous food. But don't ever pretend it will be easy to get back to that point.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: fka on January 05, 2020, 10:58:45 am
People who think that a low US unemployment rate means a great salary and its associated lifestyle need to get familiar with Cornell's Job Quality Index.

https://qz.com/1752676/the-job-quality-index-is-the-economic-indicator-weve-been-missing/ (https://qz.com/1752676/the-job-quality-index-is-the-economic-indicator-weve-been-missing/)

Quote
Right now the JQI is just shy of 81, which implies that there are 81 high-quality jobs for every 100 low-quality ones. While that’s a slight improvement from early 2012—the JQI’s 30-year nadir—it’s still way down from 2006, the eve of the housing market crash, when the economy regularly supported about 90 good jobs per 100 lousy ones.

Or, in plainer English, the US labor market is nowhere near fully recovered from the Great Recession. In fact, the long-term trend in the balance of jobs paints a more ominous picture.

“The problem is that quality of the stock of jobs on offer has been deteriorating for the last 30 years,” says Dan Alpert, an investment banker and Cornell Law School professor who helped create the index. (Along with Alpert, the index is built and maintained by researchers at Cornell University Law School, the Coalition for a Prosperous America, the University of Missouri-Kansas City, and the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity.) The “whole story” told by the index, he adds, is “the devaluation of American labor.”

The reason that average salaries for degree holders seem high in the US is because a lot of people 50+ are included in the data. The data skews even more as a result of extreme wealth, concentrations of wealth in particular geographical areas, and in certain industry sectors. Look at the data for people under 40 and exclude major wealth centers (which have extremely high costs of living), and the numbers are very different.

The people here who claim that you can walk into a 50k+ job and get a big house with a swimming pool with a BA and some teaching experience in Korea are either deluding themselves out of desperation, choosing to focus on selective anecdotes rather than broader data, or working some weird ulterior motive, like cheerleading the Trump economy.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 05, 2020, 11:43:26 am
The data skews even more as a result of extreme wealth

Do you know what a median is?

Why are median wages for college graduates so high?

Why are median wages for males so high?

Why are median wages for whites so high?

Why are median wages for Asian Americans so high?
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 05, 2020, 11:46:06 am
The longer one stays in Korea, the lower the odds he'll ever be able to achieve the median. Then he'll say, "Oh well, money can't buy happiness." As a cope.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: NorthStar on January 05, 2020, 11:50:53 am
...look at this bag of suck.

https://www.worknplay.co.kr/Work/Detail/Job/214530


No, money does not buy happiness...but it can provide you a ticket there.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 05, 2020, 11:52:23 am
Teaching in Korea can be fun and satisfying but it's dangerous to do it too long.

1) Wages and conditions are declining slightly with each passing year.

2) It's not building up in demand skills. Most Westerners never become fluent in Korean. Even if they did it's not widely spoke around the world like Spanish.

3) Looks deteriorate with age. There is age discrimination. The older you are, the harder it's gonna be. Not just in Korea but anywhere.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Fidel on January 05, 2020, 01:01:45 pm
Not to sure about the minimum wage angle but the average hogwan salary seems not to have shifted much.  My first job was in 2000 on 1.6, in 2001 2.2 last was 2.8 in 2006.  However it doesnt have to be only about the money, if you are happy and feel you are getting paid fairly and having the experience you sought then that is awesome.  Back in nz i get over 11 million won, but pay shite loads in tax, mortgage, power, water, phone, insurance, superannuation, petrol, etc.  Disappears fairly quickly.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: fka on January 05, 2020, 01:43:44 pm
The data skews even more as a result of extreme wealth

Do you know what a median is?

Why are median wages for college graduates so high?

Why are median wages for males so high?

Why are median wages for whites so high?

Why are median wages for Asian Americans so high?

First of all, the median has barely moved in 20 years, while the same obviously cannot be said for consumer prices, housing and medical expenses. Secondly, extreme outliers do affect the median - just less so than the mean. The median income for college graduates under 40 is around $51,000. If you live within commuting distance of where the high-paying jobs are (New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, the Bay Area, San Diego, Portland, Seattle, Austin, Atlanta, Houston, Dallas) you can expect to pay about 1/3 of your income on rent. So from the median, that leaves you with $34,000 left over before taxes, medical insurance, commuting costs and any debt repayments. Sure, rent in a few areas will come in a bit lower than 33% but in several it will be closer to 50%.

If that sounds like an appealing situation to you, then great, have at it. Or if you're content with your income being on the lower end of the scale and living somewhere like Alabama, where your social life will consist of sipping sweet tea and listening to the bullfrogs, then by all means go for it. But let's be realistic about what the situation portends for the rest of us.

Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 05, 2020, 01:51:24 pm
First of all, the median has barely moved in 20 years, while the same obviously cannot be said for consumer prices, housing and medical expenses.

WRONG!

Real wages are adjusted for inflation. So "stagnating" means just as good as before. Going up after being adjusted for inflation (even if just slightly) means better than before.

Incidentally, wages for college grads have been going up the fastest. Unskilled factory jobs took the biggest hit due to automation (and to a lesser extent being shipped overseas). 
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 05, 2020, 01:58:15 pm
Secondly, extreme outliers do affect the median

That's laughable. The median is the point at which half the population is above and half below.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: stoat on January 05, 2020, 02:13:12 pm
Quote
..look at this bag of suck.

https://www.worknplay.co.kr/Work/Detail/Job/214530

Yeah, there hasn't been much 'Bewegung' in terms of salary in the last 20 years.
'
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: fka on January 05, 2020, 02:19:54 pm
First of all, the median has barely moved in 20 years, while the same obviously cannot be said for consumer prices, housing and medical expenses.

WRONG!

Real wages are adjusted for inflation. So "stagnating" means just as good as before. Going up after being adjusted for inflation (even if just slightly) means better than before.

Incidentally, wages for college grads have been going up the fastest. Unskilled factory jobs took the biggest hit due to automation (and to a lesser extent being shipped overseas).

I was looking at a graph of absolute median salaries, not real wages, from 2000-2019. So yes, if you look at real wages, it's a basically a flat line.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 05, 2020, 02:36:04 pm
What graph?

Post it here.

One of us is going to eat humble pie.

And I'm guessing it's going to be you (because you didn't realize it was figures adjusted for inflation).

SHOW US THE GRAPH!
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: fka on January 05, 2020, 02:46:22 pm
You'll laugh at me, and I deserve it, but I was on a different computer earlier and I honestly can't find the graph.  :laugh:

It's possible that it was inflation-adjusted, though, and I made a mistake. That said, it was definitely "spikier" than most real wage graphs. If I find it I'll post it.

Like I said, if you want to move to the US from Korea with BA, gamble on earning $51k+ and enjoy living in whatever part of the country offers you this, good luck and I wish you well.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 05, 2020, 04:09:30 pm
Median pay by age for American men with a Bachelor's degree:

22: $50,700
25: $55,000
30: $65,800
35: $75,100
40: $82,900
45: $88,600
50: $92,500
55: $94,700
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: oglop on January 05, 2020, 04:24:29 pm
Median pay by age for American men with a Bachelor's degree:

22: $50,700
25: $55,000
30: $65,800
35: $75,100
40: $82,900
45: $88,600
50: $92,500
55: $94,700

wow. much higher than uk wages
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Cohort 2019 on January 05, 2020, 04:35:55 pm
@Mayor
I'm glad to hear you have found your way back into teaching and I am certain you will soon become an invaluable addition to your school. A 1-year Teaching licensing route sure sounds a lot better than my 4 years! And once you get your masters you will earn much more. Sure the first few years are tough, but I never said that that part was easy.

I know that at least Debbie is also teaching and studying at the same time so perhaps it is a European system, I am sorry I was unaware that even within the Commonwealth things differ. All I ever wanted to do is show people that there is a demand for qualified teachers back home and that I spent 4 years together with mostly Brits and Americans at a Dutch evening course getting qualified and that all the figures point to a dire situation for all our children across the entirety of the EU continent. Teachers are increasingly harder to find and weird solutions such as refugees/bakers/mothers are proposed to fill in the gaps and that is why ESL teachers would not find it hard to get employed. Of course, I made an error in assuming that Americans would find it just as easy but clearly  things are done differently in the US, or rather, not solved.

There are two reasons why I am so adamant about my message:
1) We do see an awful lot of people here who are feeling rightfully disappointed.
2) Why are we teaching Korean students if our own country desperately needs us?

I am still convinced that I am not that special and that any ESL lifer could apply here, so if I see a school looking for a native speaker, I will be sure to post it here and help you out with any questions you might have. My interest solely being to help desperate schools find the best English teachers around and that is you! Work permits for Americans cannot be that hard especially in the field of teaching. I am not bullshitting, I have dual citizenship which made it easier but the UK has the same programmes as Belgium, Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden etc. I am just not that sure about Greece or Italy because their finances are in ruin so I don't think the govt. can afford it.

EVERYBODY is retiring...
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on January 05, 2020, 05:51:10 pm
I'm not going to get a master's here, I don't see the point though I may reconsider down the road. I got a graduate teaching degree. I know, it sounds like a master's degree, but it's not. Standard bachelor's degrees take three years here instead of four, and you can do a three year teaching bachelor's. But if you're like me and you already have a bachelor's in something not related to education, even one from overseas, you can do a one-year graduate teaching program here which makes you equivalent to having the three year bachelor's in teaching.

When I moved here I would have been content to not go back to teaching and would have been happy to do any kind of work, but I found that was impossible. There's no full-time work here, even for minimum wage, unless you want to do something awful and backbreaking like stand outside all day in the rain setting up traffic cones or doing slave labor in an unheated Dickensian warehouse. I couldn't even find part-time jobs in retail or whatever so I ended up doing casual work which mostly worked out.  I guess part of it is that I'm not from here so nobody wants to take a chance on yet another immigrant. But once I finally got my degree I got a job pretty quickly.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: waygo0k on January 05, 2020, 07:44:07 pm
A post graduate certificate is 1/3 of a masters. It’s masters level work. All you need to do is obtain the remaining 120 credits...which you can do over the course of another 2 semesters to qualify for a masters degree.

Doesn’t even have to be full time either.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Cohort 2019 on January 05, 2020, 08:07:45 pm
It's hard and it must have been tough for you as well, but from now on you are paying into a good pension plan and you can 'look forward' to life -long tenure in one of the highest pay scales till you are 70! 

You said you are not from NZ, so how did you end up there? Just curious, because you are living my dream life. I have always wanted to live in NZ actually but was just a bit concerned about the earthquakes and Australia's drought. Maybe I might go teach there when I am 60 or so. :)
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: jamsilnaynay on January 06, 2020, 12:40:20 am
LOL so now Waygook has gone from "u can make 3 to 5m a month ez with a BA in basket weaving" straight to "the market is fucked and you'll be lucky to make 1.9m."

I guarantee if anyone teaching English in Korea goes home you'll end up making less than 2.1m a month after paying rent, but at least the food will be good and the air will be clean and everything will be in English. Eventually you'll make more but only after several years of hard work and some expensive and time-consuming retraining. The job market in the West has gotten a lot more cut-throat than it was like 5-7 years ago, even with the booming economy.

I was making 3k a month in the states...except that after Uncle Sam took a cut of the monthly paycheck, it was more like 2k and change. Cheapest rooms available in my city are 700-800 USD a month. A monthly Metrocard is another $150. Going out for dinner is at least 20-25 USD per person. Seems great at first, but then you realize how much of a ripoff living in the states really is
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 06, 2020, 07:40:49 am
In the words of Jim Rohn, it’s not that prices are too high, it’s that your salary is too low. (Too low = below average.)
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: fka on January 06, 2020, 07:44:23 am
L I...

On the "Exchange rate of suck" thread, I suggested that people frustrated with the employment prospects in Korea could find good opportunities in the US, provided they had taken some extra steps to improve their resume - an advanced degree, some upward job mobility, demonstrable relevant experience, etc. I drew specific attention to my most recent search on Indeed.com, which returned dozens of current vacancies paying upwards of $50k.

Your response was

Quote
Where are these good jobs?

Quote
There aren't plenty of opportunities, though. They're few and far better with more applicants than position openings, just like for the MA TESOL jobs in America. Too saturated. Too much competition.

In this thread, I suggested that someone leaving Korea after a few years of stagnant hagwon or public school teaching shouldn't expect to get anything close to the median salary you've been citing just because they've got a random BA in Whatever, and that the cost of living might offset any salary increase among those who do achieve that. You couldn't get in fast enough to contradict me.

So what exactly is your position? The US offers bounteous opportunities for college graduates, except those with advanced qualifications in TESOL and the kind of experience that is specified in job ads for the numerous vacancies in that field? Should we exclude this category of people in all future discussions of the US job market? What is your specific expertise on this subject, other than "Older folks are saying..."?

Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 06, 2020, 08:00:48 am
Where are these good jobs was akin to “show me the graph”. You were saying an MATESOL would lead to a good job in Korea. I said don’t count on it because so many already have it. And there aren’t that many high level openings here. Supply and demand. I said that including in the USA (and everywhere on earth) other masters are more valuable.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 06, 2020, 08:06:44 am
You said “plenty of opportunities” for MATESOL holders. I should have said the good job openings are “few and far between”. Autocorrect got me. But you get the point?
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: fka on January 06, 2020, 08:09:47 am
This is what I said:
Quote
There are lots of good jobs in the US and UK for people with MA TESOLs and a couple years' uni experience under their belt. I don't know about the southern hemisphere. Granted, those good jobs will get a lot of applicants in popular markets, but just do a search on Indeed or another site and you'll see plenty.

I don't know how you interpreted US and UK as "Korea", but I'll assume that maybe you just skimmed it quickly. And do I really need to hold anybody's hand and show them how to do a job search? I'm not wasting my time posting random jobs on here when you can take 30 seconds to look for yourself. Here's a head start, though, for people with some EAP experience:

https://www.baleap.org/jobs (https://www.baleap.org/jobs)
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: fka on January 06, 2020, 08:11:47 am
You said “plenty of opportunities” for MATESOL holders. I should have said the good job openings are “few and far between”. Autocorrect got me. But you get the point?

Yeah, I don't care about the autocorrect error. I wasn't referring exclusively to Korea with my comment about plenty of opportunities.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 06, 2020, 08:17:43 am
I clicked on the link then clicked on a job. Requirements were high. Salary was pathetic. Competition to get that job will be higher than competition to get jobs in other professional fields. That’s why it’s problematic to keep investing in EFL.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: fka on January 06, 2020, 08:30:46 am
Most of the jobs in that link are temporary pre-sessional courses that pay around £5,000  (US $6500) for six weeks of work, with free accommodation for those who live outside the area. They are typically recruiting multiple candidates since it's seasonal work, and the requirements would be easy to meet for anyone who's done a year or two of post-MA teaching.

If you think that's a terrible offer compared what Joe Teacher, stepping off the plane from Korea, is likely to get in another field, I don't really know what to tell you.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: fka on January 06, 2020, 08:33:47 am
In any case, if I'd allowed myself to be influenced by all the negativity I read online, I would've

a) never applied for my first uni job in Korea because "Korean unis now demand x, y, and z"
b) turned down that job offer on account of the embittered commentary of a few weirdo ex-employees
c) not applied to my current, better position because "you have to know someone on the inside to get a job there"

The new claim that I see circulating a lot on Facebook etc. is that nobody will hire you if you have a graduate degree from a Korean university. This despite the fact that virtually none of the people spreading this information have a graduate degree from a Korean university, and I know several people with uni jobs who got their graduate degrees from Korean unis while working here.

Maybe the complainers should've focused their energy on building their careers rather than building mental walls and whining about not being able to scale them.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: oglop on January 06, 2020, 09:00:04 am
the things i'm getting from this thread are

1. i can earn more money in korea
2. that's partly because uk wages suck
3. if i leave korea, it would take me 10-15 years to maybe reach the money i'm earning now
4. it will be a more difficult job with longer hours
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on January 06, 2020, 09:52:12 am
It's hard and it must have been tough for you as well, but from now on you are paying into a good pension plan and you can 'look forward' to life -long tenure in one of the highest pay scales till you are 70! 

You said you are not from NZ, so how did you end up there? Just curious, because you are living my dream life. I have always wanted to live in NZ actually but was just a bit concerned about the earthquakes and Australia's drought. Maybe I might go teach there when I am 60 or so. :)

Teachers here don't get special pensions, so stop trying to apply non-NZ logic to NZ scenarios. You really have a knack for that.

I'm married to a kiwi so that's why and how I moved here. There's actually a teacher shortage here for the first time in decades--it used to be impossible to get a teaching job here. They're even hiring people from overseas now. But salaries are pretty low. If you want to make more money you want to go to Australia, which is much more anti-immigration than NZ.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on January 06, 2020, 09:57:54 am
the things i'm getting from this thread are

1. i can earn more money in korea
2. that's partly because uk wages suck
3. if i leave korea, it would take me 10-15 years to maybe reach the money i'm earning now
4. it will be a more difficult job with longer hours

Depends what you're doing for work. I don't know about UK teaching conditions but in the US and NZ teachers end up working 60 to 80 hours a week due to all the extra things they're expected to do now. Yeah the extra vacation looks nice on paper but you spend a lot of that on planning and grading.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Kayos on January 06, 2020, 10:18:22 am
the things i'm getting from this thread are

1. i can earn more money in korea
2. that's partly because uk wages suck
3. if i leave korea, it would take me 10-15 years to maybe reach the money i'm earning now
4. it will be a more difficult job with longer hours

Depends what you're doing for work. I don't know about UK teaching conditions but in the US and NZ teachers end up working 60 to 80 hours a week due to all the extra things they're expected to do now. Yeah the extra vacation looks nice on paper but you spend a lot of that on planning and grading.

Teaching salaries in NZ are really low for the amount of work too. There is a reason the teachers went on strike multiple times in NZ last year.
The current government is finally actually negotiating with the teachers too, as the previous government didn't / wouldn't.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: oglop on January 06, 2020, 10:25:46 am
the things i'm getting from this thread are

1. i can earn more money in korea
2. that's partly because uk wages suck
3. if i leave korea, it would take me 10-15 years to maybe reach the money i'm earning now
4. it will be a more difficult job with longer hours

Depends what you're doing for work. I don't know about UK teaching conditions but in the US and NZ teachers end up working 60 to 80 hours a week due to all the extra things they're expected to do now. Yeah the extra vacation looks nice on paper but you spend a lot of that on planning and grading.
yep, same in the uk. for some reason i know a lot of people in the uk who were teachers. they've all quit and are doing different jobs. none would recommend teaching in the uk. wages are **** too

edit: why is "wank" censored?

edit 2: i guess the better idea would be getting a PGCE and then finding a job abroad
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: stoat on January 06, 2020, 10:36:08 am
Looks like there'll be an even bigger shortage of teachers in the UK once Brexit goes ahead. Europeans won't stay around to pay for expensive visas.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-teacher-school-immigration-rights-brexit-recruitment-a9270416.html

Love this comment from an EU teacher. Looks like they can be as much 'racist bigots' as brexiteers  :smiley:

Quote
Just to give you my take on this as an EU citizen living in the UK, who can be classified as highly successful.
My ONLY 2 reasons for being here are the money and the fact that my children can learn to speak English for free.

Everything else is a BIG compromise. Where should I start? That I dread that one day my family has to depend on the NHS? This is worse than the health system they have in Africa. Or the dreadful weather? Or the dreadful houses, where you pay *itloads of money for some small dumps? Or the overcrowding at every corner here in London? Or that most of the neighborhoods start looking as if you are in another continent, and not in Europe? Or the terrible and overpriced transportation? The list goes on...

In my opinion, if people don’t earn VERY well in this country, they should have some very good reason to come here. And instead of paying for that, the British government should pay them to come over.

Anyway, just my two cents.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: fka on January 06, 2020, 10:46:37 am
I clicked on the link then clicked on a job. Requirements were high. Salary was pathetic.


Lol. I just reviewed the first six job postings (with published salaries) and they all pay at or above US $51k (pro-rata). Are you now going to argue that this median wage you've been touting is, in fact, "pathetic"?

Keep in mind, too, that most people doing this kind of job will be university teachers on paid summer vacations, earning this on top of their regular salaries.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 06, 2020, 11:52:12 am
Universities forbid outside work, no?

First / only link I clicked on: https://www.baleap.org/jobs/pre-sessional-teacher-3

698.70 pounds a week. That’s $914 a week. Big salary for a masters degree holder? Not really.  $47.5k a year. Which for the teaching English industry is good... but Americans who lack the EU passport most likely wouldn’t be hired.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: fka on January 06, 2020, 12:21:57 pm
Quote
Universities forbid outside work, no?

Mine allows it, so long as you notify them about it. In any case, these jobs aren't exclusive to people working in Korea.

Quote
First / only link I clicked on: https://www.baleap.org/jobs/pre-sessional-teacher-3

698.70 pounds a week. That’s $914 a week. Big salary for a masters degree holder? Not really.  $47.5k a year.

You forgot the 12% holiday pay which takes the salary up to 781 pounds (x52 = 40612). At today's exchange rate that's $53, 128 per year. Pathetic?

Quote
Which for the teaching English industry is good... but Americans who lack the EU passport most likely wouldn’t be hired.

True, but that's a reflection of UK immigration policy, not a lack of opportunities for British people working in ESL to make decent money.

Look, I have no objection to recommending that people stuck in hagwonland or public schools shift gears and retrain in something more lucrative. And yeah, if you want to invest time and money in becoming an engineer or software developer, the eventual payoff will be greater.  All I'm trying to say is that if you take ESL as a career seriously, you get the qualifications you need and work hard to improve your situation, the financial outlook is not that bleak.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 06, 2020, 12:22:14 pm
I just reviewed the first six job postings (with published salaries) and they all pay at or above US $51k (pro-rata). Are you now going to argue that this median wage you've been touting is, in fact, "pathetic"?

1) I checked just one job - first one I came acroos so within the top six- and it was below that. Should I believe you? Not gonna waste my time looking at the links. Maybe later.
2) I wasn't touting $51k; that was you. (Where'd you get that number?)  Me was this:

Quote
Median pay by age for American men with a Bachelor's degree:

22: $50,700
25: $55,000
30: $65,800
35: $75,100
40: $82,900
45: $88,600
50: $92,500
55: $94,700

Do you think you'll ever get close? (Note this is for a bachelors not masters.)

3) Arguing with you is tiresome and taking up time so I might dip out.
4) If not, show us the graph.

Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: fka on January 06, 2020, 01:35:29 pm
Jesus, you love moving the goalposts, don't you?

I point toward reasonably compensated ESL jobs in the US and UK and you say I'm talking about Korea. I explicitly say "average wage" and you return with "Do you know what a median is?" I start using the median supplied by the National Center for Education Statistics and but apparently I'm supposed to disaggregate by gender, as if women don't work in this field. I show you a job that exceeds said amount and you exclude 12% of the pay. I suggest a group of people to whom such a job would appeal and you incorrectly claim that Korean universities would prevent them from doing it during a summer break.


In fact, that last claim is a great example of the kind of pseudo-authoritative BS that I often see on Korean ESL discussion forums. Ninety-nine percent of the conversations look like this:

OP: Hey, I've been in Korea for four years and just completed an MA TESOL at Sookmyung Women's University. I've been offered a job at Xiamen University in China but I don't know whether to take it. I don't really want to leave Korea and have concerns about China, but it seems like the easiest way to get university teaching experience. Does anyone know anything about Xiamen?

Respondent 1 (BA in Psychology, 2nd semester EPIK teacher): No one will take your Korean degree seriously. You made a big mistake. Total waste of money.

Respondent 2 (BA in History, 3rd year hagwon teacher): I hope you're not planning on coming back to Korea after teaching there. Universities aren't counting teaching in China as real experience anymore. It's not like the good old days. Also, for any university job in Seoul or Busan, the unofficial requirement is actually like four years of uni experience and a PhD.

Respondent 3 (BA in Sociology, 5th year kindergarten teacher): An MA TESOL doesn't really qualify you for anything since it's mostly theoretical. Most good employers, including universities, want at least a CELTA on top of an MA. Also, I don't know why anyone would want a university job in Korea. They've done away with the long vacations and pay is usually under 2.5 million.

Respondent 4 (MA in Geology from 1996 that was never applied toward an education job, 1st year hagwon teacher, recently relocated to Korea after major life change): I applied to several Korean universities and got NOWHERE! It's all about who you know. If you don't have some kind of inside connection, your application goes straight in the bin. I know a LOT of professors, and they all tell me this.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: zola on January 06, 2020, 02:13:33 pm
lol. That's pretty good actually.

I think we are all guilty that sometimes. Taking our own limited experience or those of our social circle and assuming its true in every situation everywhere. And then telling everyone about it.

LI has always been a negative nelly. His old bugbear was the difficulty the Korean language and nobody would ever succeed in learning it to a decent level and we shouldn't even bother trying.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: kyndo on January 07, 2020, 05:40:51 am
An assumption that I had up until not too long ago was that the vast majority of middle and highschools were gender segregated. I was discussing... something... uh, hmmm... something super important that I can't quite remember right now, and was looking up stats and realized that while the majority of students go to segregated schools, it was a pretty small majority. Like 54-56 % or something like that.
   It was pretty shocking to me because, in my area, there's not a single coed middle or highschool to be found. I just assumed the same was true everywhere in Korea. Well, guess not. Oops.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: kberger on January 08, 2020, 09:44:39 am
Interesting thread.  I read the whole thing. 

I have to agree with patrickbateman, if you're an american male that doesn't mind blue collar work, you can do well back in the US.  When I got back to Wisconsin several years ago, I was just like "must... make... money."  I became a truck driver and it has worked out pretty well.  These days, I deliver crap to restaurants in the middle of the night.  It is no one's dream job, but it pays pretty well.  I made $98k last year.

I did think about being a teacher in the US, but I got the feeling it is a pain in the a   that just takes too long.  There has been a way to become a teacher without a certificate in the bad parts of Milwaukee.  It is something like they give you an emergency exemption from the certificate requirement, and you have to work toward getting all that praxis stuff done.  I have heard the the teacher shortage is now out in the rural parts of the state too.  Maybe a similar program will be in place in other parts of the state.  I know no details, I thought about it, and I decided I don't really want to be a teacher that bad.

I think jobs like a trade is a can't miss proposition.  I think kids have been told for decades that they have to go to college to be somebody, and it is now hard to find an electrician or plumber under the age of 60.         

 
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Colburnnn on January 08, 2020, 11:04:26 am
Interesting thread.  I read the whole thing. 

I have to agree with patrickbateman, if you're an american male that doesn't mind blue collar work, you can do well back in the US.  When I got back to Wisconsin several years ago, I was just like "must... make... money."  I became a truck driver and it has worked out pretty well.  These days, I deliver crap to restaurants in the middle of the night.  It is no one's dream job, but it pays pretty well.  I made $98k last year.

I did think about being a teacher in the US, but I got the feeling it is a pain in the a   that just takes too long.  There has been a way to become a teacher without a certificate in the bad parts of Milwaukee.  It is something like they give you an emergency exemption from the certificate requirement, and you have to work toward getting all that praxis stuff done.  I have heard the the teacher shortage is now out in the rural parts of the state too.  Maybe a similar program will be in place in other parts of the state.  I know no details, I thought about it, and I decided I don't really want to be a teacher that bad.

I think jobs like a trade is a can't miss proposition.  I think kids have been told for decades that they have to go to college to be somebody, and it is now hard to find an electrician or plumber under the age of 60.         

 

I am a qualified electrician back in the UK. I completed 4 years of training and examinations to call myself that.

I ran my own small business for a while after I qualified, but my GOD the red tape bull that goes along with it. Actually doing the work was not so bad, and depending on the job actually highly enjoyable. But the paperwork and constant changing of regulations/forced examinations year upon year made me give it up.

I'd like to teach design and technology in the UK, but it appears there is just as much bull to put up with that I'd be better off just bashing some houses again if I went home.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 09, 2020, 06:26:19 am
Lol. I just reviewed the first six job postings (with published salaries) and they all pay at or above US $51k (pro-rata).

O RLY? Here are all the jobs on the link, with salaries converted to $USD:

$52,477-56,940
salary not specified
$47,587. $915 a week plus 12.07% holiday pay
$45,583
$44,259-52,802
$45,557 plus 12.07% holiday pay
$42,975-46,939
$49,771-61,061 ("The courses are uniquely STEMM-focused")
$39,934-44,264
$66.17 per teaching hour (Seems high but there is a lot of time spent doing administrative work, so the wage per hour worked is actually much lower.)
$19,650-30,232
___________________ ___________________ ___________________ _____

The most highly qualified EFL teachers abroad- those who invested in it as a career with a MATESOL, DELTA, and years of experience will be competing for these highest end jobs. Salaries seem low to me. Especially for the cream of the crop high responsibility professional jobs in this industry. Just my opinion though. The other problem is adjusted for inflation wages in this line of work are going down. So how good something is now will not be how good it will be five years from now.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: waygo0k on January 09, 2020, 07:44:13 am
These are most definitely NOT high end EFL jobs...at least when we're talking about people with the highest level qualifications and experience.

Here is an example of an EFL job listing:

*Salary
Teachers with a BA and 4 years $48000
Teachers with a MA and 8 years $55000

*Fully paid winter and summer vacation

*Housing
$8500
Furnished housing is provided for teaching staff. Single bedroom apartment for individual teachers, two bedroom apartment for individual teacher with dependents and teaching couples. Upgrades to 2 or 3 bedroom apartments are available with the employee paying the difference in cost.

*Housing Allowance
$8400 (yearly)

*Moving Allowance
$2000
An initial moving reimbursement allowance is provided to teachers, $2000 for individual teachers, $3000 for teaching couples or teachers with dependents

*Annual Airfare
$2000 Provided at start of employment
Airfare to training in Arizona, USA as well as to China is provided by the School
Annual Travel Allowance is provided by the school each year of employment. $2000 for individual teachers or $3000 for teachers with dependents

*Contract completion bonus (equivalent to one month's salary per calendar year completed with the school) paid at the end of the contract


We're talking $66,000 for 20-25 teaching hours per week at this international school, with minimal expenses. Their salary scale is the same regardless of what subject you're teaching. This isn't even a high end school, their salary is upper mid range in the international school industry, where salaries can approach $100k per year for the absolute top teaching (not administrative) jobs.

http://basisinternationalgz.com/home/index.php
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: fka on January 09, 2020, 08:11:08 am
Lol. I just reviewed the first six job postings (with published salaries) and they all pay at or above US $51k (pro-rata).

O RLY? Here are all the jobs on the link, with salaries converted to $USD:

$52,477-56,940
salary not specified
$47,587. $915 a week plus 12.07% holiday pay
$45,583
$44,259-52,802
$45,557 plus 12.07% holiday pay
$42,975-46,939
$49,771-61,061 ("The courses are uniquely STEMM-focused")
$39,934-44,264
$66.17 per teaching hour (Seems high but there is a lot of time spent doing administrative work, so the wage per hour worked is actually much lower.)
$19,650-30,232
___________________ ___________________ ___________________ _____

The most highly qualified EFL teachers abroad- those who invested in it as a career with a MATESOL, DELTA, and years of experience will be competing for these highest end jobs. Salaries seem low to me. Especially for the cream of the crop high responsibility professional jobs in this industry. Just my opinion though. The other problem is adjusted for inflation wages in this line of work are going down. So how good something is now will not be how good it will be five years from now.

What did you use for currency conversion? I used xe.com. Maybe exchange rate fluctuations account for some variation.

Anyway, my point was that someone who was motivated and took their ESL career more seriously could pick up an extra 5k for six weeks of work if they were so inclined. Again, if ESL isn't working out for you, go do something else. I've never disputed that that's good advice. There are many career paths that provide more money than ESL. That doesn't change the fact that the average starting salary for certified teachers in the USA is $39,249 (http://www.nea.org/home/2017-2018-average-starting-teacher-salary.html (http://www.nea.org/home/2017-2018-average-starting-teacher-salary.html)), or the average house price in California is $589,700, the median rent across the whole United States is $1,216 for a one-bedroom apartment, and the average health insurance premium is $440. For me, on balance, it works out better to have long vacations and pocket a grand in savings per month by staying in Korea, doing a job I actually like (after 15-odd years of doing jobs I hated and never making decent savings or getting out of debt).

It's no secret that education does not provide a road to riches. I wouldn't ever argue otherwise. If I ever had a point to make, it's been made or it's fallen on deaf ears, so I'll for now I'll just join the rest of the choir and say yeah, get out of ESL, or Korea or whatever. If it's making you unhappy, do something else.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 09, 2020, 08:34:29 am
What did you use for currency conversion? I used xe.com.

I used that, too.  Both today and when you first made the post. Double check the numbers if you don't believe me. Looks like you gave us some factually inaccurate information.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 09, 2020, 08:45:28 am
Anyway, my point was that someone who was motivated and took their ESL career more seriously could pick up an extra 5k for six weeks of work if they were so inclined.

Well, yeah if they get a MATESOL and DELTA first. Those are expensive  and time consuming to obtain. Then you have a chance to make $5k in six weeks, which is $43k a year (if you went all year without taking a vacation day) ... but you gotta compete with others to get the job. There's no guarantee it's yours.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 09, 2020, 08:48:08 am
That doesn't change the fact that the average starting salary for certified teachers in the USA is $39,249

And what's the average starting salary for a first year English  teacher in Korea? I mean, are you gonna compare experienced teachers in Korea with starting teachers in America?
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 09, 2020, 08:51:30 am
the average house price in California is $589,700

People want to live there I guess. That demand pushes up prices. Especially in IT hot spots where salaries are high.

Incidentally, the average salary for a teacher in California is $80,680. Plus a big benefits package.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: fka on January 09, 2020, 08:55:23 am
Yep, if you want to be a teacher in California you should go there and do that. Just like I said.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 09, 2020, 09:00:22 am
The average American home price is $226,800. To use average teaching salaries as a whole (well, starting salaries), then talk about just Californian home prices is a bit misleading in my opinion.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: fka on January 09, 2020, 09:01:19 am
You're right.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 09, 2020, 09:04:00 am
Here is an example of an EFL job listing:

International schools are not EFL. They provide education for the kids of the Western expats working abroad.

Teaching certification leads to more money than a MATESOL and DELTA.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: fka on January 09, 2020, 09:06:57 am
L I, why are you still working in ESL?
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: waygo0k on January 09, 2020, 09:24:34 am

International schools are not EFL. They provide education for the kids of the Western expats working abroad.
Teaching certification leads to more money than a MATESOL and DELTA.

Lol...you have zero idea.

Maybe a few token international schools might be majority expat kids...in the majority of these schools around the world, the vast majority of the student population are the children of wealthy and middle class local families. This also applies in western countries.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 09, 2020, 09:29:17 am
Wikipedia says this: "These schools cater mainly to students who are not nationals of the host country, such as the children of the staff of international businesses, international organizations, foreign embassies, missions, or missionary programs."
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: stoat on January 09, 2020, 09:35:26 am
Anyway, my point was that someone who was motivated and took their ESL career more seriously could pick up an extra 5k for six weeks of work if they were so inclined.

Well, yeah if they get a MATESOL and DELTA first. Those are expensive  and time consuming to obtain. Then you have a chance to make $5k in six weeks, which is $43k a year (if you went all year without taking a vacation day) ... but you gotta compete with others to get the job. There's no guarantee it's yours.

Most pre-sessional jobs in the UK just ask for a DELTA. 
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: waygo0k on January 09, 2020, 09:38:29 am
China alone has over 1000 fully accredited international schools, and up to 5000 extra international schools that are either partially accredited or lack accreditation.

On average, these schools have 1500-3000 students and employ anything from 200-500 teaching staff, of which 10-20% will comprise of foreign teaching staff, in some schools this percentage could be as high as 30%. You really believe there are enough "children of the staff of international businesses, international organizations, foreign embassies, missions, or missionary programs" to fill these schools?

When you factor in the fact that virtually every country on the planet has these schools (some more than others)...does the wiki claim hold up to the math?

From 2014:
International School Consultancy Group (ISC) indicate that there are now 7,017 international schools around the world meeting the learning needs of over 3.5 million students, all using English as the language for learning.

English-medium international schools are an increasingly significant sector for higher education international student enrolment. No longer are they simply the domain of expatriate children. Today, of the total 3.5 million, over 2.5 million international school students are local children seeking a quality, English-speaking education as a means to acquiring a place at one of the world’s respected universities.

By the end of 2014, ISC predicts there will be 7,200 English-medium international schools teaching over 3.7 million students and that by 2024, there will be over 12,000 international schools teaching 6.9 million students generating an annual fee income of over US $62 billion (£37 billion).


https://monitor.icef.com/2014/03/new-data-on-international-schools-suggests-continued-strong-growth-2/
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 09, 2020, 09:49:31 am
Accredited international schools require teaching licenses, not DELTAs and MATESOLs.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 09, 2020, 09:50:05 am
the average health insurance premium is $440

But for an American teacher it's $98. The employer contributes $514 a month.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: fka on January 09, 2020, 10:11:22 am
Then why are you still working in ESL?
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: waygo0k on January 09, 2020, 10:41:41 am
Accredited international schools require teaching licenses, not DELTAs and MATESOLs.

Yes, you're partially right. Most accredited international schools require teaching licenses. Some only require teaching qualifications...ot hers require both.

DELTA is a level 7 qualification...it is a level above just having a teaching license. It is a course people usually do if they want to move from teaching to management and director positions.

You're telling me a person with a DELTA and/or MATESOL wouldn't be able to get a job in one of the 1000+ accredited international schools in China? Or the 4000+ other accredited international schools in the rest of Asia? Or the remaining 4000+ international schools in the rest of the world outside Asia?
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: NorthStar on January 09, 2020, 01:27:46 pm
Accredited international schools require teaching licenses, not DELTAs and MATESOLs.

Yes, you're partially right. Most accredited international schools require teaching licenses. Some only require teaching qualifications...ot hers require both.

DELTA is a level 7 qualification...it is a level above just having a teaching license. It is a course people usually do if they want to move from teaching to management and director positions.

You're telling me a person with a DELTA and/or MATESOL wouldn't be able to get a job in one of the 1000+ accredited international schools in China? Or the 4000+ other accredited international schools in the rest of Asia? Or the remaining 4000+ international schools in the rest of the world outside Asia?

Yeah...I would, if given the power to do so, higher someone with a DELTA and experience over someone with a "teaching license"....
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: oglop on January 09, 2020, 01:36:27 pm
is there literally nowhere to do a DELTA in korea now? even the British Council stopped offering DELTAs, according to the bloke i interviewed with
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on January 09, 2020, 01:45:24 pm
is there literally nowhere to do a DELTA in korea now? even the British Council stopped offering DELTAs, according to the bloke i interviewed with

Apparently not.  I'm heading back to Europe next year and was looking at Poland or Czech Republic for the DELTA and a few months knocking around there.  Did my CELTA in Hungary, but that isn't looking so nice at the moment.   

https://www.celtadelta.com/
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: oglop on January 09, 2020, 01:48:47 pm
oh well. BC currently offer the Trinity DipTESOL which is apparently the equivalent. but you gotta work there to do it
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: JNM on January 09, 2020, 01:53:11 pm
Wikipedia says this: "These schools cater mainly to students who are not nationals of the host country, such as the children of the staff of international businesses, international organizations, foreign embassies, missions, or missionary programs."

... children born overseas to wealthy mothers who can choose what passport their children get.

From experience (as a parent, not a teacher) in Korea and Saudi, I see 70%+ local kids in these schools. Many have Canadian/US/other passports, so they get in even if policies limit local enrollment to 20%.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: stoat on January 09, 2020, 02:11:45 pm
oh well. BC currently offer the Trinity DipTESOL which is apparently the equivalent. but you gotta work there to do it

Are you sure you need to have a provider to do the DELTA these days? I was under the impression you just need to find someone who's qualified as a local DELTA tutor, contact them and arrange for them to observe your classes. Then you have an external assessor come in for the final one. You do the rest of the course online.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on January 09, 2020, 04:55:36 pm

Incidentally, the average salary for a teacher in California is $80,680. Plus a big benefits package.

Translation: "a first year teacher in California makes $45,000 a year. Average salaries are stupid to talk about when most people don't last more than a couple years. I wouldn't last five minutes teaching at an American public school so I keep living in Korea and posting utter nonsense about fantasy average salaries on Waygook."
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: oglop on January 09, 2020, 04:57:56 pm
oh well. BC currently offer the Trinity DipTESOL which is apparently the equivalent. but you gotta work there to do it

Are you sure you need to have a provider to do the DELTA these days? I was under the impression you just need to find someone who's qualified as a local DELTA tutor, contact them and arrange for them to observe your classes. Then you have an external assessor come in for the final one. You do the rest of the course online.
wasn't even aware of this, although it's something to think about. presumably you could find an external assessor/tutor who could assess at the BC? not sure where else to look
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Cohort 2019 on January 10, 2020, 01:09:34 am
I wouldn't last five minutes teaching at an American public school.
Oh come on, I have just sent one of my students to San Fransisco for an exchange and he said that the school was fantastic. In his own words: "Much more disciplined than your class, sir. Everyone is quiet."  ;D
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on January 10, 2020, 05:26:33 am
Ok since it's so easy move to the US and work at a public school and let us know how you get on.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Cohort 2019 on January 10, 2020, 08:12:32 am
I am actually thinking of Canada, but that other guy had a hard time getting hired there...
I have had tough classes and learnt how to deal with that. You will, too. It isn't hard at all for an ESL teacher.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: fka on January 10, 2020, 08:32:05 am
That really raises the question of why L I doesn't qualify as a teacher and take a job in the US. I wonder if we'll ever find out why he continues to work in ESL.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: hangook77 on January 10, 2020, 08:55:31 am
Minimum wage was suppose to be 10,000 won an hour by now.  It spiked over the last 3 years or so, mostly pushed by current Pres.  He actually slowed it down this year due to effects it had on inflation and the negative toll it was taking on the economy.  It went up too fast, too quickly.  As of last year a full time minimum wage job equaled over 1.7 million won a month. 

It is time for esl wages to go up.  In 2008 or so, in todays money, entry level esl gigs would be equal to 3 million won a month.  But every time I say it should be more, lots of folks seem to think it should still be low and jump through hoops on here to defend it and push defeatism.  Either way, demand a big raise or walk away and teach in another country with a much cheaper living cost.  There are some good paying gigs over in China right now with a lower living cost. 
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 10, 2020, 09:02:50 am
fka,

You've said the same thing three times.

Why do you care so much?

You spreading misinformation is annoying. I correct factual inaccuracies.

Those who exaggerate how bad the West is / how good Korea is (most likely due to their own insecurities / need to be right rather than a desire to help others) ironically make their own life worse by flooding the market more.

Best to not lead others astray.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Kayos on January 10, 2020, 09:10:57 am
Minimum wage was suppose to be 10,000 won an hour by now.  It spiked over the last 3 years or so, mostly pushed by current Pres.  He actually slowed it down this year due to effects it had on inflation and the negative toll it was taking on the economy.  It went up too fast, too quickly.  As of last year a full time minimum wage job equaled over 1.7 million won a month. 

It is time for esl wages to go up.  In 2008 or so, in todays money, entry level esl gigs would be equal to 3 million won a month.  But every time I say it should be more, lots of folks seem to think it should still be low and jump through hoops on here to defend it and push defeatism.  Either way, demand a big raise or walk away and teach in another country with a much cheaper living cost.  There are some good paying gigs over in China right now with a lower living cost.

The problem with China is the government.
And, from what I've heard, from people who have worked there, there is also less job security for foreigners.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on January 10, 2020, 09:12:34 am
Also, bad air pollution in China.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: hangook77 on January 10, 2020, 09:16:40 am
Minimum wage was suppose to be 10,000 won an hour by now.  It spiked over the last 3 years or so, mostly pushed by current Pres.  He actually slowed it down this year due to effects it had on inflation and the negative toll it was taking on the economy.  It went up too fast, too quickly.  As of last year a full time minimum wage job equaled over 1.7 million won a month. 

It is time for esl wages to go up.  In 2008 or so, in todays money, entry level esl gigs would be equal to 3 million won a month.  But every time I say it should be more, lots of folks seem to think it should still be low and jump through hoops on here to defend it and push defeatism.  Either way, demand a big raise or walk away and teach in another country with a much cheaper living cost.  There are some good paying gigs over in China right now with a lower living cost.

The problem with China is the government.
And, from what I've heard, from people who have worked there, there is also less job security for foreigners.

The government isn't great for some folks.  But they don't care about English teachers as long as they don't poke their nose in CCP business and who don't talk politics with the students.  Otherwise, make money, live life, and then get out. 

Send a huge amount of salary home each month.  Use an official at your school to send it for you to your bank back home or send it via Western Union if you have a relative you trust to pick it up and deposit it in your bank account back home.  There is less security for foreigners even here.  A bad hakwon that skips out on paying your wages, tries to fire on trumped up charges.  Risks everywhere. 
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Kayos on January 10, 2020, 09:30:07 am
Minimum wage was suppose to be 10,000 won an hour by now.  It spiked over the last 3 years or so, mostly pushed by current Pres.  He actually slowed it down this year due to effects it had on inflation and the negative toll it was taking on the economy.  It went up too fast, too quickly.  As of last year a full time minimum wage job equaled over 1.7 million won a month. 

It is time for esl wages to go up.  In 2008 or so, in todays money, entry level esl gigs would be equal to 3 million won a month.  But every time I say it should be more, lots of folks seem to think it should still be low and jump through hoops on here to defend it and push defeatism.  Either way, demand a big raise or walk away and teach in another country with a much cheaper living cost.  There are some good paying gigs over in China right now with a lower living cost.

The problem with China is the government.
And, from what I've heard, from people who have worked there, there is also less job security for foreigners.

The government isn't great for some folks.  But they don't care about English teachers as long as they don't poke their nose in CCP business and who don't talk politics with the students.  Otherwise, make money, live life, and then get out. 

Send a huge amount of salary home each month.  Use an official at your school to send it for you to your bank back home or send it via Western Union if you have a relative you trust to pick it up and deposit it in your bank account back home.  There is less security for foreigners even here.  A bad hakwon that skips out on paying your wages, tries to fire on trumped up charges.  Risks everywhere.

Personally, I'll take Korea over China.
I'd hate having to rely on a co-worker to send money out, and hate having to rely on family to get it and put it into my account. It's much easier in Korea to send money.
Internet is much less censored here in Korea, and much more stable. I know you can use a vpn, but when you do a lot of online gaming like me, they slow things down greatly.
That is only hakwon's. Public schools have decent job security here in Korea. In China, public schools have the same level of job security as a bad hakwon here (based on what I've heard).

TBH, the cost of living doesn't seem to be much cheaper than Korea. I could be wrong, but usually when people break it down, it seems to be pretty comparable.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: KimDuHan on January 14, 2020, 04:15:56 am
I am actually thinking of Canada, but that other guy had a hard time getting hired there...
I have had tough classes and learnt how to deal with that. You will, too. It isn't hard at all for an ESL teacher.

In Canada northern schools will hire you on the spot! Free housing and benefits like living in Korea. 4 months holiday including 2 months in the summer.

Only downfall is it is rural and no social life when school is in session.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: confusedsafferinkorea on January 14, 2020, 05:27:30 am
Minimum wage was suppose to be 10,000 won an hour by now.  It spiked over the last 3 years or so, mostly pushed by current Pres.  He actually slowed it down this year due to effects it had on inflation and the negative toll it was taking on the economy.  It went up too fast, too quickly.  As of last year a full time minimum wage job equaled over 1.7 million won a month. 

It is time for esl wages to go up.  In 2008 or so, in todays money, entry level esl gigs would be equal to 3 million won a month.  But every time I say it should be more, lots of folks seem to think it should still be low and jump through hoops on here to defend it and push defeatism.  Either way, demand a big raise or walk away and teach in another country with a much cheaper living cost.  There are some good paying gigs over in China right now with a lower living cost.

The problem with China is the government.
And, from what I've heard, from people who have worked there, there is also less job security for foreigners.

Quite right about job security, the common Chinese people are keen to learn English but the government doesn't give a flying fig about it, the less foreigners, the better, so they change visa requirements at the drop of a hat. Easy way to get rid of foreigners.  Winnie the Pooh is so paranoid and even more so now, that it is somewhat dodge to teach in China now.  I LOVED my time there and was really upset when I had to leave due to visa requirements change. Now, in hindsight it was a blessing in disguise. I never rocked the boat, kept a low profile etc, but even though I was treated like a celebrity by my university students, the government always made me feel unwelcome.

At the risk of incurring On Nut's wrath AGAIN, if you want to leave Korea for whatever reason, have a look at Taiwan. Is it perfect?  No, but it is a great alternative to Korea IF you want to move on.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: confusedsafferinkorea on January 14, 2020, 05:34:12 am
TBH, the cost of living doesn't seem to be much cheaper than Korea. I could be wrong, but usually when people break it down, it seems to be pretty comparable.

If you are not in one of the big 8 cities, like Beijing or Shanghai etc, then this is not true. Cost of living is way less.

If I had to choose a city in China to live and work, it would be Xiamen. Beautiful, clean, little air pollution and very pleasant climate, very moderate.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Cohort 2019 on January 14, 2020, 06:18:34 am
In Canada northern schools will hire you on the spot! Free housing and benefits like living in Korea. 4 months holiday including 2 months in the summer.

Only downfall is it is rural and no social life when school is in session.

Really, didn't ForeverP. have a hard time getting hired? Is there also a shortage of teachers in Canada? I'd be really interested to move there.

edit: Apparently you need to be able to speak inuktitut. ;D
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on January 14, 2020, 08:59:51 am
Like South Korea, Canada graduates more teachers than there are available teaching positions. There isn't a shortage there at all. Teaching grads pretty much have to go teach in Korea or China to get any teaching experience. There are quite a few "official" Canadian schools in China and Korea that use Canadian provincial curricula and hire Canadian teachers.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: KimDuHan on January 14, 2020, 10:56:41 am
In Canada northern schools will hire you on the spot! Free housing and benefits like living in Korea. 4 months holiday including 2 months in the summer.

Only downfall is it is rural and no social life when school is in session.

Really, didn't ForeverP. have a hard time getting hired? Is there also a shortage of teachers in Canada? I'd be really interested to move there.

edit: Apparently you need to be able to speak inuktitut. ;D

He was selective on his choices, northern Canada is begging for teachers. Reserves and northern hamlets need teachers always. Big city centers are maybe full but if you look you can easily get a job as a teacher in Canada.

ForeverP did not want to work in the north. He could of worked in the north for the rest of his career and made bank.

People choose Korea for an adventure and experience because they don’t want to teach in the north. Actually teaching in the north would be more beneficial as the pay is better and it gets you Canadian experience.

Esl in Korea is a dying business with the current wages and situation.

China isn’t any better, Vietnam may fill the void for awhile but really people are just running away from “undesirable” locations in their home countries.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: leaponover on January 14, 2020, 03:32:18 pm

Why do all that when you can basically earn the same in China teaching 20-25hrs per week?

I can answer that one:
1.  The basic principles (integrity) of not supporting a communist regime that supports human right atrocities and the tyranny of their people.
2.   Way shittier air
3.   A language that is grating on the ears
4.   Ugly women

Two out of four of those are at least facts.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: waygo0k on January 14, 2020, 04:18:45 pm
1. You (and I) live in a country with a history of government tyranny against its own people...including putting children in slave camps as late as the 80s to make a few extra bucks for the government. If you’re from the US or the UK, your government has been actively involved in genocide in the Middle East since the start of the century, and going back further. Not defending the CCP, but I’m also not going to play the holier government than thou game.

2. Don’t disagree there. I’m willing to substitute shittier air for a higher salary and lower workload...and better food too.

3. Thank goodness for earphones and music!

4. Thankfully there are over half a billion of them, some must at least be alright. If not, I’ve got my left hand handy and ready to go  :P :P
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: leaponover on January 14, 2020, 04:28:17 pm
1. You (and I) live in a country with a history of government tyranny against its own people...including putting children in slave camps as late as the 80s to make a few extra bucks for the government. If you’re from the US or the UK, your government has been actively involved in genocide in the Middle East since the start of the century, and going back further. Not defending the CCP, but I’m also not going to play the holier government than thou game.

2. Don’t disagree there. I’m willing to substitute shittier air for a higher salary and lower workload...and better food too.

3. Thank goodness for earphones and music!

4. Thankfully there are over half a billion of them, some must at least be alright. If not, I’ve got my left hand handy and ready to go  :P :P

You had a key word in there that makes a huge difference, but let's just ignore that for the sake of feeling better about it.  You sound like the people who explain away racism by saying that slavery isn't legal anymore, lol.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: waygo0k on January 14, 2020, 04:39:07 pm
Don’t tell me the electronic device you’re using to post on here, or any of its components was ‘made in China’...or anything that you own or use for that matter.

Wouldn’t want to be supporting the CCP in any way now would you  :wink:
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on January 14, 2020, 06:08:02 pm
Don’t tell me the electronic device you’re using to post on here, or any of its components was ‘made in China’...or anything that you own or use for that matter.

Wouldn’t want to be supporting the CCP in any way now would you  :wink:

Wow you got him! Now he can't criticize anything about China, no matter how evil and bad, unless he gets rid of anything he owns from China! China could be sending political dissidents to jail and harvesting their organs while they're still alive and just lying there dying as their kidneys get ripped out, and he can't say anything if he has a Hot Wheels car lost under his couch cushions! Amazing logic bro!
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: leaponover on January 14, 2020, 06:46:11 pm
Don’t tell me the electronic device you’re using to post on here, or any of its components was ‘made in China’...or anything that you own or use for that matter.

Wouldn’t want to be supporting the CCP in any way now would you  :wink:

Ahh, the old your shoes are made of leather Greenpeace protester argument.  I see what I'm dealing with now.  I'll kindly bow out of this before it gets any more nauseating. 
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: confusedsafferinkorea on January 14, 2020, 07:23:08 pm
4.   Ugly women

Man, you must be walking around with your eyes closed. China has some of the most beautiful women on the planet.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: waygo0k on January 14, 2020, 09:37:27 pm
I never said you can’t criticise China. I simply said you can’t claim to refuse to go to China because of its dodgy human rights record...while supporting that same regime with your money on a daily basis. Seems a bit cognitive dissonancey to me.

Moreover, there are literal boycott movements against countries with questionable human rights practices. For example there’s the BDS movement against Israeli apartheid, there are people who refuse to spend any money on anything relating to North Korea, there are people who refuse to spend money on anything Cuban or related to Cuba etc.

Criticise China all you want...but if you’re going to boycott the country, at least do it fully and properly before tooting your own horn.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Colburnnn on January 15, 2020, 07:32:07 am
4.   Ugly women

Man, you must be walking around with your eyes closed. China has some of the most beautiful women on the planet.

I'd have to agree with you here, although after living in Korea with THE most beautiful girls on the planet, it is always going to seem like a downgrade.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: leaponover on January 15, 2020, 12:13:31 pm
4.   Ugly women

Man, you must be walking around with your eyes closed. China has some of the most beautiful women on the planet.

Matter of preference of course, but the average Chinese woman walking down the street has never caught my eye.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on January 15, 2020, 05:29:52 pm
Apologize for the War of Jenkin's Ear, you knave!
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: gogators! on January 15, 2020, 11:12:53 pm
Is that why Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton have hundreds of millions of dollars and teachers are scraping by in the states? Stop with your nonsense. Capitalism rewards exploitation. Those who know how to profit off the backs of others are the ones that make the most money. Literally stealing from the benefit of others labor and extracting that value from other people's hard work is the backbone of capitalism.

Teachers in the USA are well paid, generally speaking. Including benefits, which is money paid into their retirement account, etc., they average over $100k per year. While working only 180 days per year. That's more days not working than working.

Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton didn't "steal" money. Consumers willingly gave it to them for their perfume lines , DJ performances, television appearances, etc.
Average salary is $60,000.  (Yes, I'm aware that you're adding benefits to put your thumb on the scale.)  But teachers may or may not get benefits such as a pension and they certainly can't use them to feed their kids or send them to college. And the average is skewed by including principals, etc.

They are not well paid considering their level of education and the amount of hours they work.  Once  hours are factored in, they actually work more than 250 days a year. The money they must spend on supplies etc. and can no longer deduct should also be factored in.

And thanks to the consumer model that education in the US is now being modeled on, teachers are slowly but surely being ground down.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: kyndo on February 06, 2020, 09:24:00 am
This thread was teetering on the verge of becoming yet another US politics troll-fest, so I deleted a bunch of comments.
If you feel that yours didn't deserve getting dumped in the e-rubbish bin, then my deepest, most sincere apologies.
"Can't delete an omelette without erasing some eggs." or whatever that expression is.  :smiley:
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on February 20, 2020, 12:16:24 pm
Back to the original point...wages in korea suck and it looks like they are set to worsen in the coming years.
____________________________________________________________________________________
<Conditions are as follows>
1. Position Title : Assistant Professor (Native English professor)
2. Qualifications : Master's degree holders in any field who have  F visa and more than two-year teaching experience at a college level.
3. Employment Location : Suwon Science College, Hwaseong, Gyeonggi Province, Republic of Korea
4. Housing and Food : NOT provided(No Key money)
5. The Salary : 2.5 million won per month (The yearly salary is 30 million won)

___________________ ___________________ ___________________ ___________________ ________

Need a master's degree and an F visa and more than two year's teaching experience at the college level in order to be considered.

Then compete with many others to try to get the job.

For 2.5 million a month with no housing.

Adjusted for inflation, salaries are going down every year.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: alexisalex on February 20, 2020, 12:38:40 pm
That above job post is quite shocking honestly.  The salary should be 3 million if housing isn't provided.

Did anyone else see this on a popular expat Facebook group.  The guy started/is invested in the food delivery company Shuttle (he might even post on this site) and he said this...

Quote
I've had about 20 Uzbek international students work for shuttle over the last few years...Several times me they make a very good monthly rate if they are fast. 4-5 million won/month or more.

This really puts teachers' wages into perspective doesn't it?  4-5 million  :shocked:

Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: stoat on February 20, 2020, 02:11:18 pm
That above job post is quite shocking honestly.  The salary should be 3 million if housing isn't provided.

Did anyone else see this on a popular expat Facebook group.  The guy started/is invested in the food delivery company Shuttle (he might even post on this site) and he said this...

This really puts teachers' wages into perspective doesn't it?  4-5 million  :shocked:



Check out this Mike Leigh movie about delivery drivers. it might make you feel better about your situation,.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8359816/
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on February 20, 2020, 02:12:08 pm
That above job post is quite shocking honestly.  The salary should be 3 million if housing isn't provided.

Did anyone else see this on a popular expat Facebook group.  The guy started/is invested in the food delivery company Shuttle (he might even post on this site) and he said this...

This really puts teachers' wages into perspective doesn't it?  4-5 million  :shocked:


That's gotta be nonsense. Shuttle charges, what, 4k a delivery? I mean, I guess at a peak time you could make maybe 40k an hour if you really got lucky and just had orders bang bang bang one after another all lined up. And sure, if you extrapolated that over 12 hours a day, 6 days a week or something.

This sounds more like bluster to pump up the amount of business being done.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: CO2 on February 20, 2020, 02:14:31 pm
That's gotta be nonsense. Shuttle charges, what, 4k a delivery? I mean, I guess at a peak time you could make maybe 40k an hour if you really got lucky and just had orders bang bang bang one after another all lined up. And sure, if you extrapolated that over 12 hours a day, 6 days a week or something.

This sounds more like bluster to pump up the amount of business being done.

No, no, all you have to do is dedicate every waking hour to flying around on a scooter at 75km/h and you can be rich!
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on February 20, 2020, 02:43:02 pm
No, no, all you have to do is dedicate every waking hour to flying around on a scooter at 75km/h and you can be rich!
Heck, if I really could make that kind of money delivering without having zero protection from oncoming cars, I'd consider it. It's more likely 3-4 deliveries per hour and the company probably gets 25% of the delivery fee.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: alexisalex on February 20, 2020, 02:55:46 pm
Yeah I actually left out the rest of the guy's quote which is quite scary.  Here it is...

Quote
However, I have seen at least 6 students with broken arms, legs, hips etc because of motorbike accidents.

 :huh: :huh:
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: alexisalex on February 20, 2020, 03:00:26 pm
Here's the ad I saw on Facebook. 

Quote
Full time drivers are guaranteed 3.6 million per month
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: stoat on February 20, 2020, 03:14:19 pm
They probably have to pay for scooter rental, helmet/uniform and petrol out of that.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on February 20, 2020, 04:28:27 pm
lol if everyone at Waygook ditches their ESL jobs and becomes a scooter delivery driver. Good luck...
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on February 20, 2020, 04:44:25 pm
Less people going out due to fears of the corona virus = more delivery food ordered = big bucks for us
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on February 20, 2020, 04:45:56 pm
How about becoming a mask seller?

(https://landofthemourningclam.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/honey-butter-mask.png)
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: oglop on February 20, 2020, 05:05:29 pm
Less people going out due to fears of the corona virus = more delivery food ordered = big bucks for us
Fewer
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: tylerthegloob on February 20, 2020, 06:43:31 pm
Fewer

Stannis is that you?
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on February 21, 2020, 01:26:26 am
You know me, I usually rip LOTMC, but that one was pretty decent.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: VanIslander on February 21, 2020, 03:29:16 am
The only negative of a high minimum wage is price inflation.

SK is a country committed committed to keeping prices manageable for the masses in terms of fresh fruit, veggies, rice, public transportation and alcohol.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: oglop on February 21, 2020, 05:24:25 am
The only negative of a high minimum wage is price inflation.

SK is a country committed committed to keeping prices manageable for the masses in terms of fresh fruit, veggies, rice, public transportation and alcohol.
do we live in the same country? fruit is insanely expensive, alcohol is a rip off (the cheapest you can get is 4 cans of beer for 10k? expensive), veggies are overpriced too (and often not fresh).

...but yes, public transport is good
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: stoat on February 21, 2020, 06:50:46 am
You know me, I usually rip LOTMC, but that one was pretty decent.

I don't get it, what's the joke? 

(You'll note I'm not passing judgement on the quality of the humour at this stage because I'm assuming my lack of understanding comes from cultural unfamiliarity)
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: slycordinator on February 21, 2020, 08:08:54 am
I don't get it, what's the joke? 

(You'll note I'm not passing judgement on the quality of the hunour at this stage because I'm assuming my lack of understanding comes from cultural unfamiliarity)
Were you not here for the honey butter craze? It started with people going absolutely nuts for honey butter chips (potato chips that had a powder of fake honey and fake butter). They would sell out insanely quickly. And they started making anything/everything with that powder.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: stoat on February 21, 2020, 08:09:38 am
I guess it passed me by.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: oglop on February 21, 2020, 08:11:28 am
Stannis is that you?
I made that mistake a while ago and got absolutely rinsed. Getting some payback ;)
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: stoat on February 21, 2020, 08:17:58 am
Using 'less' with countable nouns is becoming pretty normal in spoken English these days and I can see it going the same way as 'there is' with plurals as in 'there's lots of people around'. 'Less people' and 'there's lots of people' are just easier to say than 'fewer people' and 'there are lots of people'.   
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on February 21, 2020, 08:31:07 am
You know me, I usually rip LOTMC, but that one was pretty decent.

So you're saying that all Koreans are gullible idiots?

Got it. 

The first frame is not real because he seems to be stood in a field and as we know grass-covered areas are rare in Korea.  Also, he should be stood in a very narrow street with mopeds driving down the pavements and cars parked into spaces that contortionists would have difficulty squeezing into.  There are also fliers for kimbap shops and love motels strewn on the road.  There could also be some guy pissing in a doorway.  The foreigners arrogant head is covering the ying/yang in the middle of the sacred Korean flag, showing obvious arrogance on his part and saying 'My love for Korea only stretches as far as how much money I can rinse out of this forsaken peninsula, I'm more important than this country.'  Also, the fact he so flashy is shown by him just leaving a pile of money on the grass.  Why not just flaunt it about dickhead?

The second frame is obviously racist as the guy selling the masks is much taller than his customers.   You can't allow this kind of racist symbolism to stand.  He also seems to be dressed as a medical officer, making his gullible customers think that he has some kind of medical qualification. Also, all the Koreans are wearing glasses, and the foreigner who is duping them into buying the masks is not wearing glasses.  Also, all of his customers have green money which is 'man won' or 10 000 won, showing that these Koreans obviously are not your typical working class Koreans.  If they were waving their blue money which is 'cheon won' or 1000 won that may be more apt.  Also, the foreign guy doesn't seem to have any visible means to give change as he has no pockets or a till.  Surely he should be paying tax on these honey butter abominations.  So not only is he scamming the tax laws and duping gullible idiots, he's doing it to make a quick buck before exiting the country as quick as possible. 

You know, just in fairness and all. 

Terrible.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: oglop on February 21, 2020, 08:32:25 am
Using 'less' with countable nouns is becoming pretty normal in spoken English these days and I can see it going the same way as 'there is' with plurals as in 'there's lots of people around'. 'Less people' and 'there's lots of people' are just easier to say than 'fewer people' and 'there are lots of people'.   
Yeah I've noticed. Get rid of fewer altogether I say. Unnecessary
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: stoat on February 21, 2020, 08:34:30 am
So you're saying that all Koreans are gullible idiots?

Got it. 

The first frame is not real because he seems to be stood in a field and as we know grass-covered areas are rare in Korea.  Also, he should be stood in a very narrow street with mopeds driving down the pavements and cars parked into spaces that contortionists would have difficulty squeezing into.  There are also fliers for kimbap shops and love motels strewn on the road.  There could also be some guy pissing in a doorway.  The foreigners arrogant head is covering the ying/yang in the middle of the sacred Korean flag, showing obvious arrogance on his part and saying 'My love for Korea only stretches as far as how much money I can rinse out of this forsaken peninsula, I'm more important than this country.'  Also, the fact he so flashy is shown by him just leaving a pile of money on the grass.  Why not just flaunt it about dickhead?

The second frame is obviously racist as the guy selling the masks is much taller than his customers.   You can't allow this kind of racist symbolism to stand.  He also seems to be dressed as a medical officer, making his gullible customers think that he has some kind of medical qualification. Also, all the Koreans are wearing glasses, and the foreigner who is duping them into buying the masks is not wearing glasses.  Also, all of his customers have green money which is 'man won' or 10 000 won, showing that these Koreans obviously are not your typical working class Koreans.  If they were waving their blue money which is 'cheon won' or 1000 won that may be more apt.  Also, the foreign guy doesn't seem to have any visible means to give change as he has no pockets or a till.  Surely he should be paying tax on these honey butter abominations.  So not only is he scamming the tax laws and duping gullible idiots, he's doing it to make a quick buck before exiting the country as quick as possible. 

You know, just in fairness and all. 

Terrible.

Good point about the glasses. The Asian equivalent of black face
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: alexisalex on February 21, 2020, 08:45:26 am
Check out this Mike Leigh movie about delivery drivers. it might make you feel better about your situation,.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8359816/

Watched it last night.  Good film, that.  Big difference between delivering signed for packages and fast food but I get the sentiment.  It paints a very depressing picture of that kind of work.  The part at the beginning where he hires the guy is brilliant; such BS haha.  Thinking of that Facebook ad, I think it's very shady of Shuttle to be advertising that "guaranteed" monthly pay and also that the owner/investor is so nonchalant about the drivers breaking limbs and hips.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: stoat on February 21, 2020, 09:02:40 am
Watched it last night.  Good film, that.  Big difference between delivering signed for packages and fast food but I get the sentiment.  It paints a very depressing picture of that kind of work.  The part at the beginning where he hires the guy is brilliant; such BS haha.  Thinking of that Facebook ad, I think it's very shady of Shuttle to be advertising that "guaranteed" monthly pay and also that the owner/investor is so nonchalant about the drivers breaking limbs and hips.

Yes, the big irony being that all the people involved in the making of that film were on temporary contracts without long term benefits or security.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: CO2 on February 21, 2020, 09:05:26 am
Ken Loach's "Sorry, We Missed You" is a great film about the "self employed app" economy.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: alexisalex on February 21, 2020, 10:40:23 am
Ken Loach's "Sorry, We Missed You" is a great film about the "self employed app" economy.

That's what we're talking about above  ;D I think stoat just got his British film makers mixed up.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: stoat on February 21, 2020, 10:56:08 am
That's what we're talking about above  ;D I think stoat just got his British film makers mixed up.

Yes, my mistake. Mike Leigh's better overall IMO.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: VanIslander on February 21, 2020, 11:09:47 am
do we live in the same country? fruit is insanely expensive, alcohol is a rip off (the cheapest you can get is 4 cans of beer for 10k? expensive), veggies are overpriced too (and often not fresh).

...but yes, public transport is good
Buy your fruit and veggies fresh and at better prices in bulk at the 5-day markets, not Seoul supermarkets.

Alcohol prices for Koreans are kept down: they drink soju and maekju, not so much imported beer.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: oglop on February 21, 2020, 11:15:19 am
Buy your fruit and veggies fresh and at better prices in bulk at the 5-day markets, not Seoul supermarkets.

Alcohol prices for Koreans are kept down: they drink soju and maekju, not so much imported beer.
i do. mate, 15k for a watermelon? 8k for five apples? you'd get a whole bag of apples in the uk for a quid. everything here is at least 2 to 4 times more expensive for groceries in general.

imported beer is cheaper than domestic beer anyway. soju is cheap, yes, but who the hell wants to drink that shite? i'll give you makgeolli though- cheap and good!
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on February 21, 2020, 11:45:23 am
(https://landofthemourningclam.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/comedian1.png)
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on February 21, 2020, 12:54:44 pm
When was this written? 2010? Lotteria was UTTER TRASH then. Now between the Hot Crispy, and the AZ burger and the Classic Cheese, they are certainly competitive with McD's.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on February 21, 2020, 01:00:53 pm
So you're saying that all Koreans are gullible idiots?
No, I think that's what you're saying.

I think the author was just pointing out a recent trend. Much like if he was in the South and there were a bunch of people selling face masks, he'd sell Mesquite BBQ flavor face masks. Or if in Portland, Quinoa-Kale infused face masks. Korea had a big honey butter craze. He poked fun at that. Credit where credit is due. It's not a 5/5, but it's a solid strip, competently constructed. You'll notice it doesn't rely on the typical set up of "One person idealized, the other person an idiotic caricature of a stand in" and doesn't end with the 4th Wall breaking Yakov Smirnoff "What a crazy country" desperate plea for you to laugh.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: CO2 on February 21, 2020, 01:07:00 pm
(https://landofthemourningclam.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/comedian1.png)

Dr. DeM be like
(https://img.gifglobe.com/grabs/peepshow/S02E02/S02E02-b6rInZZB-subtitled.jpg)
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on February 21, 2020, 01:26:22 pm
Hey man, I do give credit when credit is due. When it's a good one, I'll say so. When it's bad, I'll say so. That last one had some "ehh" moments but it was one of the more indifferent outings.

Anyways, you know what is a common thread in all of their offerings? Zero personal growth. Never is the protagonist shown to be wrong or the one with a misunderstanding. Never does he have his comeuppance. He may get victimized at the end, but he is never defeated by his own failures of character. Never are the tables turned where he's the one acting a fool and the locals are actually in the right. Nothing where he learns or gains insight. Nothing where his assumptions are challenged. Never is there consideration of anyone's perspective but his. Zero attempt at understanding why things are the way they are or why he believes his way is right. Nothing is really challenged. There's an undercurrent of meanness and bitterness throughout. Even his wife is used as the butt of jokes and not really taken seriously as a person.

I think the work they put out reveals a bit about their character and the mindset they go through life with. I guess that sort of thing appeals to people with a similar mentality.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: tylerthegloob on February 21, 2020, 01:55:23 pm
that last comic was garrrrrrrrrbage. "new guy doesn't know the price of melons? haha" "new guy thinks we get A/C? bwahaha" "what're you a comedian?" this is shit tier comedy
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: alexisalex on February 21, 2020, 02:04:01 pm
I don't understand why people are expecting Pulitzer level quality from a stripbits, throwaway comic that just throws cheap jabs at Korea.  The beauty is in its simplicity.  All it's doing is taking common annoyances about expat life and putting them into a comic strip.  Fruit and veg is expensive if you come from the UK, some schools are cheap when it comes to AC, construction quality of some buildings isn't amazing, love motels exist etc.

Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on February 21, 2020, 02:55:59 pm
I don't understand why people are expecting Pulitzer level quality from a stripbits, throwaway comic that just throws cheap jabs at Korea.  The beauty is in its simplicity.  All it's doing is taking common annoyances about expat life and putting them into a comic strip.  Fruit and veg is expensive if you come from the UK, some schools are cheap when it comes to AC, construction quality of some buildings isn't amazing, love motels exist etc.
Well, in the cases where I've taken big exception I've always offered alternatives. The mask one I thought was okay. Nothing spectacular but hey, not every work is going to be a 10/10. The one after that, was really indifferent. I don't know, not really anything I didn't like, but it also had almost no redeeming qualities and just sort of meandered.

I've compared it to two other strips, ROKetship and Dear Korea, neither of which are amazing but both of which show a markedly superior level of quality over this.

that last comic was garrrrrrrrrbage. "new guy doesn't know the price of melons? haha" "new guy thinks we get A/C? bwahaha" "what're you a comedian?" this is shit tier comedy
Exactly. Is anyone really laughing at these? Or are people just agreeing? I mean, for a bunch of people arguing that people laughing while people at dinner is dumb, this isn't making you look any better in comparison.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: JNM on February 23, 2020, 03:31:19 pm
...

Never is the protagonist shown to be wrong or the one with a misunderstanding.

The last strip appears to be all about his misunderstandings.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: CO2 on February 23, 2020, 04:32:28 pm
(https://landofthemourningclam.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/judgement1.png)

This is not accurate. I've had students who can pronounce finish AND Sandwich correctly.

Also, have you ever heard a Scottish person attempt Korean? Not everyone can pronouce every language correctly.

Please check your tongue privilege. 
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: kyndo on February 26, 2020, 04:07:08 pm
Strossel: The Inequality myth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv0VKl_jwwI)

This can join his already impressive list of hits:

"[The free] markets are magical and the best protectors of the consumer."
"There is no good data showing secondhand smoke kills people."
"I've built my career on unpaid interns, and the interns told me it was great!"
"[ I] disagree with scientific skeptics on the subject of global warming, and reject the notion that it will have net negative consequences."
  etc.


I admire his passion for chasing what he figures is the truth, but I feel that he's a bit... misguided on several different fronts.
But at least he isn't one of those quack conspiracy theorists....


Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: oglop on February 26, 2020, 04:24:18 pm
what is it with american boomers and terrible mustaches?
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on February 26, 2020, 04:30:00 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWB6hGIA9sw
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: kyndo on February 26, 2020, 04:40:30 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWB6hGIA9sw

You could prolly add that to his list of greatest hits too.   :laugh:
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on February 26, 2020, 04:43:14 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31hcFYBQaKU
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: NorthStar on February 26, 2020, 06:38:39 pm
South Korea broke its own record for the world’s lowest fertility rate, adding to a list of challenges for a government already grappling with slowing economic growth and a spreading coronavirus outbreak.

The country's total fertility rate, which refers to the average number of children a woman bears in her lifetime, came to 0.92 last year, down from 0.98 a year earlier, according to the data from Statistics Korea.


https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20200226006000320

The 2019 figure is far below the replacement level of 2.1 that would keep South Korea's population stable at 51 million. It is also a sharp drop from the 4.53 in 1970, when the government began to compile related data.

Oh great...they have another excuse.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on February 27, 2020, 10:38:10 am
This is not accurate. I've had students who can pronounce finish AND Sandwich correctly.

Also, have you ever heard a Scottish person attempt Korean? Not everyone can pronouce every language correctly.

Please check your tongue privilege. 
Man these guys lack any self awareness whatsoever.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on February 28, 2020, 08:58:15 am
is everyone a delivery scooter driver yet????

 :police:
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: VanIslander on February 28, 2020, 09:12:27 am
It's amazing how many people defend tax breaks for the very rich but criticize mimimum wage laws... ON ECONOMIC GROUNDS!

Remember: savings is bad for the economy, spending is good.

The absurd idea that the 5-10% saved by the very rich would be more likely re-invested in the economy over the increased wages of low income earners is repeated ad naueam, contrary to fact.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on March 02, 2020, 05:26:30 pm
Is anyone really laughing at these?

I'm laughing.

(https://landofthemourningclam.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/style.png)

Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on March 09, 2020, 08:25:51 pm
Capitalism rewards exploitation. Those who know how to profit off the backs of others are the ones that make the most money. Literally stealing from the benefit of others labor and extracting that value from other people's hard work is the backbone of capitalism.

Capitalism is a good thing.

Pinker: Certainly capitalism deserves credit for the spectacular increase in prosperity that the world has enjoyed since the 18th century, including the global east and south in the past forty years. Prosperity, on average, tends to bring other good things in life: democracy, peace, education, women’s rights, safety, environmental protection, to name a few. Also, the spirit of commerce pushes nations toward peace. It’s bad business to kill your customers or your debtors, and when it’s cheaper to buy things than to steal them, nations are not tempted toward bloody conquest.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rainerzitelmann/2020/03/02/steven-pinker-evolution-has-saddled-our-species-with-many-irrational-and-destructive-psychological-traits

Zitelmann: In your book, you criticize the zero-sum belief that wealth is a limited resource and that the rich only get rich by taking from the poor. Why is this theory wrong and, above all, why do so many people still believe it?

Pinker: One reason is theoretical: prosperity primarily comes from ideas, methods, recipes, algorithms, and other forms of knowledge, which are replicable at marginal or zero cost: If I teach a man to fish, I have not forgotten how to fish myself. The other is empirical: since the Industrial Revolution in the early 19th century, when global prosperity began to soar, the rate of extreme poverty plunged from 90% of the world’s population to less than 9%. And of course one can see it with one’s own eyes. A relatively poor person in the West today (and increasingly elsewhere) enjoys antibiotics, streaming entertainment, air conditioning, a dozen ethnic cuisines, and other luxuries that were unavailable to the Vanderbilts and Rockefellers 120 years ago.


Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: oglop on March 09, 2020, 08:32:00 pm
my wife read a naver article about Tada taxi drivers. apparently, they make at least 5m a month, and some make up to 8.5m a month. wonder how true it was
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on March 10, 2020, 11:45:36 am
lol if everyone at Waygook ditches their ESL jobs and becomes a scooter delivery driver. Good luck...

Too bad we don't speak Korean well enough to be scooter delivery drivers or Tada taxi drivers. Guess we'll have to do factory work.

 At busan
 furniture factory
 8:30~6:30pm Monday to Friday
 (Saturday & Sunday is free)
 2.7mil won
 house free
 food free when work
 4man and 4woman
 no experance ok
 simple job
 under 40age
 asian people ok
 urgently
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: hangook77 on March 10, 2020, 11:59:09 am
It's amazing how many people defend tax breaks for the very rich but criticize mimimum wage laws... ON ECONOMIC GROUNDS!

Remember: savings is bad for the economy, spending is good.

The absurd idea that the 5-10% saved by the very rich would be more likely re-invested in the economy over the increased wages of low income earners is repeated ad naueam, contrary to fact.

The issue isn't the real rich.  If the top rate kicked in at 3 or 4 million dollars in income, and it was just a little bit higher by 2 or 3 points in income tax.  But when we consider 100 or 200 thousand rich which it certainty hasn't been for a long time.  True those folks do have nice toys but they emulate the real rich and are often in debt to their eyeballs and work their ass off with too long of hours.  The top rate should kick in at 3 or 4 million dollars in income a year to tax the real rich.  But the rate shouldn't be so high you incentivize them leaving or moving away.  A small amount will take a bit more without making them relocate.  The key is to get the right balance.  The old rate in the US was 39% on incomes over 400,000.  It was cut to 35%.  Well, let all of Trump's tax cuts remain in place up until 4 million a year and raise the top rate back to the old 39%.  Keep at this level if some loopholes are closed or lower all rates after this a bit more if many loopholes closed.  If loopholes wide open raise top rate to 40 or 41%.  Overall, I do believe less regulation and taxes do create economic growth.  But deficits seem to follow because folks can't stomach any reduction in spending.  Revenue does grow, but not enough to fully 100% cover the gap.  As for Canada, charging much higher on 100 K a year, well investment is leaving the country and provinces are taking their cut too.  Don't even get me started on that.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: hangook77 on March 10, 2020, 12:03:39 pm
this is a fact and what kept me here when I knew I should have left long ago,  Vacations home and seeing what the 27+ women that are single have to offer..  if youre not a surgeon, professional athlete,  famous in someway, millionaire..  lol you're fuked and will have to settle for a whale with baggage and she's still entitled in thinking she deserves a Chad.  If you get a cute asian hang onto her, there's nothing for us back home fellas, unless you're a Chad and have a great career.

Being funny and giving off the right vibe do actually count for something.  Some attractive nice women in the west do exist.  Some are crazy, but some hot sexy chicks are pretty cool and down to earth. 
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: hangook77 on March 10, 2020, 12:06:30 pm
It's amazing how many people defend tax breaks for the very rich but criticize mimimum wage laws... ON ECONOMIC GROUNDS!

Remember: savings is bad for the economy, spending is good.

The absurd idea that the 5-10% saved by the very rich would be more likely re-invested in the economy over the increased wages of low income earners is repeated ad naueam, contrary to fact.

Also, let me add, outsourcing has killed many of the better paying middle class jobs leaving the minimum wage jobs behind. 
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on March 10, 2020, 03:34:38 pm
Our better paying middle class English teaching jobs are being outsourced to online tutors in the Philippines.  :cry:
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on March 11, 2020, 08:22:06 am
my wife read a naver article about Tada taxi drivers. apparently, they make at least 5m a month, and some make up to 8.5m a month. wonder how true it was

If it's true then every Korean cabbie will go to work there because generic cab companies pay peanuts. Are they all going there?
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on March 11, 2020, 11:48:31 am
generic cab companies pay peanuts

Do they?

A while ago I heard Korean cabbies make 3 million a month.

Certainly cab fares have gone up.

Sometimes they ask for cash (because they want to do tax evasion) meaning they're under reporting their income.

I guess it varies depending on the person.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Mr C on March 11, 2020, 01:08:41 pm
If it's true then every Korean cabbie will go to work there because generic cab companies pay peanuts. Are they all going there?

Not necessarily.  Lots of people see things like Tada and Lyft as fly-by-nights.  When they go bankrupt and close down, the drivers will have to back to their old situation and get screwed over by going to the bottom of the totem pole.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: hangook77 on March 12, 2020, 01:32:53 am
Our better paying middle class English teaching jobs are being outsourced to online tutors in the Philippines.  :cry:

A lot of parents still wanting native English not accented English.  Some will pay bargain prices, but a lot still want a native speaking accent. 
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: gogators! on March 12, 2020, 05:36:22 am
The issue isn't the real rich.  If the top rate kicked in at 3 or 4 million dollars in income, and it was just a little bit higher by 2 or 3 points in income tax.  But when we consider 100 or 200 thousand rich which it certainty hasn't been for a long time.  True those folks do have nice toys but they emulate the real rich and are often in debt to their eyeballs and work their ass off with too long of hours.  The top rate should kick in at 3 or 4 million dollars in income a year to tax the real rich.  But the rate shouldn't be so high you incentivize them leaving or moving away.  A small amount will take a bit more without making them relocate.  The key is to get the right balance.  The old rate in the US was 39% on incomes over 400,000.  It was cut to 35%.  Well, let all of Trump's tax cuts remain in place up until 4 million a year and raise the top rate back to the old 39%.  Keep at this level if some loopholes are closed or lower all rates after this a bit more if many loopholes closed.  If loopholes wide open raise top rate to 40 or 41%.  Overall, I do believe less regulation and taxes do create economic growth.  But deficits seem to follow because folks can't stomach any reduction in spending.  Revenue does grow, but not enough to fully 100% cover the gap.  As for Canada, charging much higher on 100 K a year, well investment is leaving the country and provinces are taking their cut too.  Don't even get me started on that.
Real economic growth would be accompanied by an increase in tax revenues, making cuts unnecessary. But when you first grow the deficit, even while the economy is expanding and while cutting support systems like the CDC by adding substantially to the defense budget.

Less regulation costs you more on the back end. You've got to clean up the mess you made, you've got to deal with all the people who got sick from the pollution (think of all the cancer in China), you've got lost productivity from people suffering from thinks like lead poisoning and more.

Tax cuts help the rich get richer. How are trump's corporate tax cuts helping the average American? Not much.

"Huge tax cuts, supported by AT&T, were meant to allow companies to hire more and pay better. But instead AT&T has cut 37,818 jobs in the US from when the Trump tax cut bill first went into effect in 2018 to the end of 2019, with more than 4,000 jobs cut in the last quarter of 2019, based on the company’s quarterly reports.

The company strongly supported the tax cut bill and promised workers a $1,000 bonus ahead of the bill’s passage amid claims of a hiring spree.

The bill, passed in December 2017, cut the corporate tax rate from 35% to 21%, saving AT&T an estimated $21bn initially, with an estimated $3bn in annual savings. Despite AT&T’s promises to invest these savings back into their workforce, the company has shed employees since the bill went into effect, while capital investments have declined. In 2018, AT&T’s capital investments declined to $21.25bn, and the company announced plans to reduce it further in 2020 to $20bn, while rolling out a three-year plan to spend $30bn on stock buybacks."

"Last week, the Federal Reserve reported that U.S. manufacturing was in a recession for all of 2019. This wasn't slow growth; the sector actually became smaller. The slowdown was relatively mild, with factory production shrinking by about 1.3 percent. But it was the worst performance since 2015, the year that Trump started his presidential campaign. Under Trump, the manufacturing economy has returned to the Obama era.

Manufacturers have a clear culprit in mind for the sector's poor performance. As The Washington Post notes in a report on the Federal Reserve data, the uncertainty and increased costs surrounding Trump's trade war, which was billed as a way of supporting American factory jobs, has instead wreaked havoc on an export-heavy sector that relies on the global flow of goods to operate. Trump's interventions were intended to prop up U.S. manufacturing. But they backfired, harming the people he claimed to help—who also happen to be some of the people who played a crucial part in his election.

And while manufacturers did add jobs during the first two years of Trump's presidency, the largest share of those jobs weren't in the nation's old industrial heartland, but in the sunbelt and the West. In states like Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, manufacturing employment has fallen. "
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: Cohort 2019 on March 12, 2020, 05:55:45 am
Sooo many words, mate.... :cry:

All we want are two:

Trump 2020

 ;D

but tbh. that bitcoin price isn't going up at all so maybe I am wrong to hope for him to work his 'best genius' magic on putting the world in the worst crisis ever... but I'm still taking a loss at these prices.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: KimDuHan on March 21, 2020, 12:18:10 am
Wonder if schools will lower wages when they open back up, if they open back up at all. Lots of schools are going to go bankrupt.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on March 21, 2020, 03:29:52 am
A lot of teaching will shift to online. Much of it to the Philippines perhaps. Might stay that way to some extent. A change could be underway.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on March 21, 2020, 05:02:16 am

A while ago I heard Korean cabbies make 3 million a month.

LI depending exclusively on anecdotes and random numbers yet again lol.

Why do you think 99% of Korean cabbies are old men past retirement age? Because the job pays peanuts, and these old dudes are desperate for any work because the Korean pension is a joke. If it paid better then you'd see younger people flock to it.

Maybe they can make 3 mill a month but that would probably be if they work like 100 hours a week. Koreans are used to long hours but these ajusshis were probably making over 4 mill a month and working more like 60-80 hours a week until they turned 45 and got laid off.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: L I on March 21, 2020, 05:39:39 am
Why do so many taxi drivers insist on cash?

It's because they're underreporting their earnings for tax evasion purposes.

So - unlike bus drivers (who incidentally are getting 3 million a month) - it's hard to know what taxi drivers are pulling,

Certainly fares have been going up recently.

And it's not all old men driving these days.

Some younger folk are in the mix, too.
Title: Re: Minimum wage is too high! It will destroy the struggling ESL industry here
Post by: MayorHaggar on March 21, 2020, 08:03:30 am
I have seen a few young dudes driving taxis and a few ajummas even but the vast majority are old dudes.