Waygook.org

Symposium => "Open" Discussions => Topic started by: SPQR on October 30, 2018, 07:49:03 am

Title: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SPQR on October 30, 2018, 07:49:03 am
I'm a Brit, thank god an expat Brit, that thinks the current state of
affairs in the UK is disastrous.  The disinformation put forth by
self-serving scum like Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg borders
on criminal fraud.  The xenophobic arguments make me ashamed
and the the economic stupidity makes me shake my head in disbelief.

That blundering old hag, May, should allow a second vote, now that
the real implications of Brexit are known.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: WorthyEndeavours on October 30, 2018, 09:09:06 am
Northern Irish fella here, you're totally right about it being an absolute disaster. There seems to be a contingent of people in Britain who can't understand that the UK's position has changed since the heady days of the Empire. They're not a world power anymore. It doesn't help when you have absolute vultures and crooks in strong positions like Boris and Mogg but that just seems to be the state of Western politics these days.

As selfish as it is, I want Brexit to go ahead because I want my country unified and I want shot of English influence in Ireland once and for all. Hopefully it'd cause a lot of people to wake up and take their country back because I have no animosity towards English people, apart from the fact most of them seem to not care that they're sleepwalking into a disaster.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: JNM on October 30, 2018, 09:10:36 am
What do you expect from this crowd?
People working abroad, many of whom have seen the other side of discrimination and xenophobia.
Not likely a group isolationists!
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: eggieguffer on October 30, 2018, 09:15:31 am
'Scum', 'hag' 'vultures' etc. Come on you've finished university now, you can discuss politics in a grown up way
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SPQR on October 30, 2018, 09:16:13 am
Northern Irish fella here, you're totally right about it being an absolute disaster. There seems to be a contingent of people in Britain who can't understand that the UK's position has changed since the heady days of the Empire. They're not a world power anymore. It doesn't help when you have absolute vultures and crooks in strong positions like Boris and Mogg but that just seems to be the state of Western politics these days.

As selfish as it is, I want Brexit to go ahead because I want my country unified and I want shot of English influence in Ireland once and for all. Hopefully it'd cause a lot of people to wake up and take their country back because I have no animosity towards English people, apart from the fact most of them seem to not care that they're sleepwalking into a disaster.

I am actually from Glasgow.  I would like to see Brexit fail.  If it doesn't, then
I would also like to see total independence from England.  That could be the
lasting legacy of the Tory party.  The complete disintegration of the UK.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on October 30, 2018, 09:28:51 am
Why would anyone want to be part of the EU?

Based upon the structure of its government alone, the EU is doomed to failure.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: AvecPommesFrites on October 30, 2018, 09:30:56 am
Northern Irish fella here, you're totally right about it being an absolute disaster. There seems to be a contingent of people in Britain who can't understand that the UK's position has changed since the heady days of the Empire. They're not a world power anymore. It doesn't help when you have absolute vultures and crooks in strong positions like Boris and Mogg but that just seems to be the state of Western politics these days.

As selfish as it is, I want Brexit to go ahead because I want my country unified and I want shot of English influence in Ireland once and for all. Hopefully it'd cause a lot of people to wake up and take their country back because I have no animosity towards English people, apart from the fact most of them seem to not care that they're sleepwalking into a disaster.

I am actually from Glasgow.  I would like to see Brexit fail.  If it doesn't, then
I would also like to see total independence from England.  That could be the
lasting legacy of the Tory party.  The complete disintegration of the UK.

You had your chance and you bottled it.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: oglop on October 30, 2018, 09:49:23 am
i'll vote for whichever makes it easier for my and my wife to eventually move back to the UK

Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Savant on October 30, 2018, 10:54:06 am
All the Tory Brexiteers have sulked into the sidelines because they have no Brexit plan.

David Davis couldn't negotiate his way out of a Waitrose car park.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: kyndo on October 30, 2018, 11:04:22 am
All the Tory Brexiteers have sulked into the sidelines because they have no Brexit plan.

David Davis couldn't negotiate his way out of a Waitrose car park.
David Davis.
Not to be confused with Dave Davies, who is a well respected man (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jInFknDM3Ck&list=PLPAL315FJtRyrEfcWbFF_8dLpnkBZWBK_).
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Thomas Mc on October 30, 2018, 11:29:20 am
Funny we should talk about Ireland. Every time they vote in an EU referendum it is sent back to them to think again.

I vote leave. I was a fan of the EU but really the mismanagement of the currency and the immigration crisis has changed my attitude.

That is my opinion, as far as someone living abroad, can have an opinion.

The OP is a Scottish nationalist but lives abroad. She is somewhat similar to the tax exile Sean Connery in that respect.

The people who really have "skin in the game" are those that actually live in that damp island.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: WorthyEndeavours on October 30, 2018, 11:44:19 am
>Every time they vote in an EU referendum it is sent back to them to think again.

With concessions made, I might add.

In terms of Northern Ireland I trust the EU to take better care of us than the UK.

Bit silly of you to say I can't have that much of an opinion because I've been in Korea 8 months. I plan to return to Ireland, it's my home. My friends and family live there. I voted in the referendum. I don't see how I don't have 'skin in the game.'
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: sh9wntm on October 30, 2018, 12:07:43 pm
In principal, there are good ideas to the EU, like a shared currency, tax free trade, and it unites Europe.
But, the fact that the EU is above governments, means it compromises democracy and bogs down liberty with bureaucracy. If the people elect an unfavorable candidate, the EU can cut them out.

Plus there's a crisis of free immigration. Working class people in Germany (for example) are frustrated when people from Greece come in and take their jobs for less money. There has to be limits on immigration.

If your country is doing well financially, you're also tied into the countries who aren't. So if Italy and Portugal declare bankruptcy, your country is also going to suffer. At some point well-run countries are going to say "we just want to be responsible for us, we can't be responsible for you too". The U.K is smart to get out before it collapses on itself.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: #basedcowboyshirt on October 30, 2018, 01:00:32 pm


I'm from Canada and Korea is REALLY sucking these days. What am I doing here?  I love camping.  WTF. What am I doing here?  Camping sucks in Korea. I wanted a house! WTF. I should of been
on the property ladder a long time ago. What am I doing here?  I love target
shooting! WTF! What am I doing here?
Biggest mistake of my life was leaving a western country and coming here.

I am actually from Glasgow.  I would like to see Brexit fail.  If it doesn't, then
I would also like to see total independence from England.  That could be the
lasting legacy of the Tory party.  The complete disintegration of the UK.

I've been in the Seoul area for over twenty years

Okay.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: AvecPommesFrites on October 30, 2018, 01:11:29 pm


I'm from Canada and Korea is REALLY sucking these days. What am I doing here?  I love camping.  WTF. What am I doing here?  Camping sucks in Korea. I wanted a house! WTF. I should of been
on the property ladder a long time ago. What am I doing here?  I love target
shooting! WTF! What am I doing here?
Biggest mistake of my life was leaving a western country and coming here.

I am actually from Glasgow.  I would like to see Brexit fail.  If it doesn't, then
I would also like to see total independence from England.  That could be the
lasting legacy of the Tory party.  The complete disintegration of the UK.

I've been in the Seoul area for over twenty years

Okay.

So that's why waygook.org moderator user basedcowboy has gone through all his old posts and deleted them.

Okay.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: zola on October 30, 2018, 01:16:04 pm
Maybe SPQR was born in Scotland, immigrated to Canada with his family as a young person, then came to Korea to work as a teacher. Or maybe, like Koreaboo yesterday, he's lying. Hard to tell these days.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: MayorHaggar on October 30, 2018, 01:41:03 pm
What do you expect from this crowd?
People working abroad, many of whom have seen the other side of discrimination and xenophobia.
Not likely a group isolationists!

There's a small cabal of American hard-right conservatives on waygook. They must hate living in a country with public health care coverage and no guns. They probably treat any illness they have by self-medicating with Gatorade and ginseng drinks while ranting about "the tree of liberty."
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: sligo on October 30, 2018, 02:06:38 pm
I have no idea why people voted for Brexit.  Common sense and a little research means the reasons are pointless.

Brussels making out laws - all EU laws will be added to UK statute books.

Stupid trade rules (straight bananas and all that) - we will still trade with the EU so all produce must comply to their regulations..

Stop immigration - we will always need talent in the country, be it cleaners in the NHS, or fruit pickers.

Stop Muslims - Fook off racist moron!

Stop free movement of workers taking our jobs - Most migrants do jobs we don't want, plus many will have lived in the UK long enough to apply for "settled" status, so Brexit won't affect them.  What is more, migrants pay far more into the coffers than they take out, and usually leave voluntarily after 3 years.  Also, all the Brits who have retired in Spain and the Med will face the risk of being cast out unless a symbiotic agreement can be reached.

Stop paying 350M quid a week to the EU - That number is just plain wrong It works out to about half that. Plus the VETO Britain has means it has one of the strongest voices of all members of the EU

Take control of borders - As an island nation, we already have stronger borders than mainland Europe, and are not as open as other member countries.  Passports still must be shown.

Keep Britain British - This is a poor reason.  Change is inevitable.  People, fads and trends change.  Britishness, is whatever Britishness is.  The highstreet has died due to people wanting convenience.  We no longer Morris dance due to it being silly.  Most of the traditions that summed up "Britishness" 100 years ago have gone and Brexit won't bring them back.  For better or worse it is progress.

Basically Brexit is a massive unknown, and the disingenuous nature of the leave campaign has meant people have voted based on lies half truths and bullshIt in order to spin this into a situation that will benefit only the rich - Jacob Rees Mogg is screaming leave whilst moving his businesses to Ireland to continue to benefit from the EU.  What's more, the benefits he promised would happened from the start are now going to take up to 50 years to appear, long after all those who voted leave have died.

What is known, is that the situation under the EU meant that we had free trade, and a thriving tourism sector, business invested in the UK, and Europe funded many art and social projects. 

But regardless of all that, even if Brexit COULD be a good thing, the Conservative party couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.  Their ridiculous approach to negotiations and squabbling amongst themselves has basically meant that nothing will get done that will benefit the ordinary man on the street.  David Davis resigning when he did proves that the Tories are a bunch of c unts who care not for any but themselves and their ilk.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: shanebarry1986 on October 30, 2018, 02:41:05 pm

Stop Muslims - Fook off racist moron!


Islam is not a race. People of every colour and ethnicity are welcome in Islam.

You racist moron.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on October 30, 2018, 03:06:49 pm
There's a small cabal of American hard-right conservatives on waygook. They must hate living in a country with public health care coverage and no guns. They probably treat any illness they have by self-medicating with Gatorade and ginseng drinks while ranting about "the tree of liberty."
Funny, I seem to gripe about this place a lot less than you and most of the vocal left posters, who seem to be among some of the most consistently negative posters, often saying questionable things about Koreans, one of the few things you share in common with a few of the hard-right types. Two sides of the same coin.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: sligo on October 30, 2018, 06:48:06 pm

Stop Muslims - Fook off racist moron!


Islam is not a race. People of every colour and ethnicity are welcome in Islam.

You racist moron.

I never claimed Islam was a race, but those who are against Muslims are usually against those from Pakistan, or other Southern Asian nations, and therefeore racist.  I may have lost you by skipping a step.  Let me know if you are having a difficult time keeping up, and i will join the dots for you.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: MayorHaggar on October 30, 2018, 07:04:59 pm
There's a small cabal of American hard-right conservatives on waygook. They must hate living in a country with public health care coverage and no guns. They probably treat any illness they have by self-medicating with Gatorade and ginseng drinks while ranting about "the tree of liberty."
Funny, I seem to gripe about this place a lot less than you and most of the vocal left posters, who seem to be among some of the most consistently negative posters, often saying questionable things about Koreans, one of the few things you share in common with a few of the hard-right types. Two sides of the same coin.

Must be nice to live in a nearly gun-free society while your "views" make Americans die every day.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: eggieguffer on October 30, 2018, 07:14:08 pm

Stop Muslims - Fook off racist moron!


Islam is not a race. People of every colour and ethnicity are welcome in Islam.

You racist moron.

I never claimed Islam was a race, but those who are against Muslims are usually against those from Pakistan, or other Southern Asian nations, and therefeore racist.  I may have lost you by skipping a step.  Let me know if you are having a difficult time keeping up, and i will join the dots for you.

That's not actually true, the British population who are 'against Muslims' as you put it are usually fine with Indian Hindus and Sikhs. Generally they're not in favour of poorly educated Pakistani Muslims bringing over their culture of child brides, honour killings/acid throwing, child rape gangs, and FGM to the UK, in disproportionate numbers to people from other countries. British people just being anti brown people coming to the UK because they're brown mostly went out of fashion around the same time as Alf Garnet.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on October 31, 2018, 10:40:47 am
There's a small cabal of American hard-right conservatives on waygook. They must hate living in a country with public health care coverage and no guns. They probably treat any illness they have by self-medicating with Gatorade and ginseng drinks while ranting about "the tree of liberty."
Funny, I seem to gripe about this place a lot less than you and most of the vocal left posters, who seem to be among some of the most consistently negative posters, often saying questionable things about Koreans, one of the few things you share in common with a few of the hard-right types. Two sides of the same coin.

Must be nice to live in a nearly gun-free society while your "views" make Americans die every day.

What makes a person decide to shoot someone is that person's own decisions. Legalized concealed carry holders, AR-15 owners, and hunters are not the source of most gun crime. The three biggest sources are suicide (how someone offs themself is up to them, though gunshot is rude), domestic violence, and drug-relayed crime.

Now if you want to talk about Republican/Clintonite Drug War policies being a contributor, I'd be the first to agree..
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: shanebarry1986 on October 31, 2018, 12:58:53 pm
I never claimed Islam was a race, but those who are against Muslims are usually against those from Pakistan

If you say so.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Aurata on November 19, 2018, 08:00:46 pm
May, should allow a second vote, now that the real implications of Brexit are known.

You've been softened up by months of media propaganda. That was the plan.

Brexit caused a panic among the globalists. Their immediate reaction was to slow down the whole process to give them time to change peoples minds.

First thing they did was punish the pound, make all kinds of threats about the sky falling on your head, and keep jerking May around like a hapless ragdoll.

Quote
The xenophobic arguments make me ashamed

...then you're a sucker for their manipulation.

They want a weak cowering Britain under their control, locked into a totally undemocratic dictatorship while they send in their liquidators to asset-strip the country.


Don't worry, your worst brexit fears will never be realized. Britain will be healthier once they extricate themselves from the EU central bankers.

Quote
“What you do see is that the dream towards the multi-state entity that truly subsumes the concept of sates underneath it is really going to start dissipating and we are seeing it break down.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/906781/brexit-news-plans-for-european-union-superstate-dead-jean-claude-juncker-verhofstadt (https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/906781/brexit-news-plans-for-european-union-superstate-dead-jean-claude-juncker-verhofstadt)
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SPQR on November 19, 2018, 08:53:37 pm
Brexit caused a panic among the globalists.

Globalists? As opposed to nationalists?  Thanks, I'll take the former.

First thing they did was punish the pound,

Who punished the pound?  The pound floats freely on currency markets. The reason the pound
cratered was because everyone involved foresaw a major catastrophe heading straight for the UK.

They want a weak cowering Britain under their control,

Again, who?  Trade between the EU and UK is huge.  Cooperation between the UK and the EU
spans everything from snack foods to fusion power.

Britain will be healthier once they extricate themselves from the EU central bankers.

London is the banking centre of Europe.  What are you talking about?  Major global bankers
are already making exit plans from London to other European centres.  Financial products are
also subject to trade barriers.

It will be dark times ahead for the UK.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: kyndo on November 20, 2018, 07:51:53 am
[stuff]
Oh hey, welcome back from your summer-long hiatus, Aurata!

When are you finally gonna get the internet installed at your dacha?  :laugh:
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Savant on November 20, 2018, 08:05:57 am
[stuff]
Oh hey, welcome back from your summer-long hiatus, Aurata!

When are you finally gonna get the internet installed at your dacha?  :laugh:

Putin's unleashed him again to Waygook after his tenure at trolling the 2018 Midterms.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: zola on November 20, 2018, 08:11:29 am
When are you finally gonna get the internet installed at your dacha?  :laugh:

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Aurata on November 26, 2018, 09:17:09 pm
Globalists? As opposed to nationalists?  Thanks, I'll take the former.

Britain used to be fond of its liberty. Your forefathers died to keep Britain sovereign. But a little media propaganda and you're ready to hand your country over to German bankers?

EU and NATO were created by Washington in order to destroy the sovereignty of European nations and bring them under their umbrella. Washington regards every assertion of independence as a challenge to its hegemony.

Fortunately there are or were, just enough Brits who realized that the EU is a dictatorship run by unelected  elites. It is totally against the idea of accountable rulers, law as a shield of the people rather than a weapon of the state, and democracy as produced and founded by the British people and transplanted to the world.

 
Quote
Who punished the pound?  The pound floats freely on currency markets. The reason the pound
cratered was because everyone involved foresaw a major catastrophe heading straight for the UK.

The federal reserve, the European Central bank, the bank of Japan, George soros. Conspired to attack the pound and the British economy.. and terrorize the British people into submission.

Quote
It will be dark times ahead for the UK.

You're easily cowed, aren't you. But this is a result of Theresa May allowing Britain to be tricked into a long and drawn-out exit. The longer it takes for UK to extricate themselves from Brussels, the more time the press (owned by the elites) have to convince Brits that they made a mistake; the more Washington and the EU have to punish the brits for voting to leave.

Quote
London is the banking centre of Europe.  What are you talking about?  Major global bankers
are already making exit plans from London to other European centres.


Thats just a threat to try and intimidate the Brits.

In case you didn't realize, the City of London is an independent institution with its own laws separate from the UK. There is no reason why major global bankers would leave, its their headquarters!! and they can make any rule to fit their needs and harness investment. The city of london dominates the globe through its financial mechanisms. The British empire gave up geographic territory but not influence!


Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: L I on November 27, 2018, 04:39:27 am
George soros. Conspired to attack the pound and the British economy.. and terrorize the British people into submission.

He, along with other speculators, shorted it to make money. Which worked.

The British pound shadowed the German mark leading up to the 1990s, even though the two countries were very different economically. Germany was the stronger country, despite lingering difficulties from reunification, but the U.K. wanted to keep the value of the pound above 2.7 marks. Attempts to adhere to this standard left Britain with high interest rates and equally high inflation, but it demanded a fixed rate of 2.7 marks to a pound as a condition of entering the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM).

Many speculators, George Soros chief among them, wondered how long fixed exchange rates could fight market forces, and they began to take up short positions against the pound. Soros borrowed heavily to bet more on a drop in the pound. The U.K. raised its interest rates to double digits to try to attract investors. The government was hoping to alleviate the selling pressure by creating more buying pressure.

Paying out interest costs money, however, and the British government realized that it would lose billions trying to artificially prop up the pound. It withdrew from the ERM and the value of the pound plummeted against the mark. Soros made at least $1 billion off this one trade. For the British government's part, the devaluation of the pound actually helped, as it forced the excess interest and inflation out of the economy, making it an ideal environment for businesses.


https://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/08/greatest-currency-trades.asp
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: L I on November 27, 2018, 04:53:42 am
the EU is a dictatorship

Globalism / NATO / the EU is countries cooperating to uplift the world.

Nationalism / isolationism / authoritarianism comes from the Britain first / America first / Russia first / North Korea first / Canada first / South Korea first / Brazil first / etc. mindset. Tribalism is stupid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ximgPmJ9A5s
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Titus Groan on November 27, 2018, 09:49:43 am
Globalists? As opposed to nationalists?  Thanks, I'll take the former.

Britain used to be fond of its liberty. Your forefathers died to keep Britain sovereign. But a little media propaganda and you're ready to hand your country over to German bankers?

EU and NATO were created by Washington in order to destroy the sovereignty of European nations and bring them under their umbrella. Washington regards every assertion of independence as a challenge to its hegemony.

Fortunately there are or were, just enough Brits who realized that the EU is a dictatorship run by unelected  elites. It is totally against the idea of accountable rulers, law as a shield of the people rather than a weapon of the state, and democracy as produced and founded by the British people and transplanted to the world.

 
Quote
Who punished the pound?  The pound floats freely on currency markets. The reason the pound
cratered was because everyone involved foresaw a major catastrophe heading straight for the UK.

The federal reserve, the European Central bank, the bank of Japan, George soros. Conspired to attack the pound and the British economy.. and terrorize the British people into submission.

Quote
It will be dark times ahead for the UK.

You're easily cowed, aren't you. But this is a result of Theresa May allowing Britain to be tricked into a long and drawn-out exit. The longer it takes for UK to extricate themselves from Brussels, the more time the press (owned by the elites) have to convince Brits that they made a mistake; the more Washington and the EU have to punish the brits for voting to leave.

Quote
London is the banking centre of Europe.  What are you talking about?  Major global bankers
are already making exit plans from London to other European centres.


Thats just a threat to try and intimidate the Brits.

In case you didn't realize, the City of London is an independent institution with its own laws separate from the UK. There is no reason why major global bankers would leave, its their headquarters!! and they can make any rule to fit their needs and harness investment. The city of london dominates the globe through its financial mechanisms. The British empire gave up geographic territory but not influence!

  I tend to agree with your analysis: I have posited my own similar thoughts on other websites...

 The general level of 'head-in-the-sand' responses on this topic by some commentators seems to indicate that the dumbing-down process that had been instituted in our school systems a few decades ago (and sees its most recent manifestation in the overabundance of Snowflakes, triggered weaklings, SJWs, and Globalist shills) is bearing some disturbingly noxious and worrisome fruit...!
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on November 27, 2018, 10:23:28 am
Globalism / NATO / the EU is countries cooperating to uplift the world.
How does the EU uplift with the world with its labyrinthine style of government? One can have a common market and mutual cooperation without the bureaucratic boondoggle that is the EU. You seriously aren't bothered by an organization that has people hold a referendum on it, and then when they don't get the result they like, tell them to hold another election and this time get it right?

Also, globalism is a tool. It is neither good, nor evil. It can uplift or destroy depending on how it is used.

Quote
Nationalism / isolationism / authoritarianism comes from the Britain first / America first / Russia first / North Korea first / Canada first / South Korea first / Brazil first / etc. mindset. Tribalism is stupid.

Better isolationist than rampaging around the globe and drone striking civilians.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Savant on November 27, 2018, 10:30:20 am
Brexit is a disaster.

Just look at all the Brexiteers who bailed on the negotiations because they knew they couldn't get what they promised. Now, they just leer and snipe on the sidelines about how PM May is doing a bad job.

They thought they could just roll up to the EU and tell them "Britain wants.....", and expected the EU would just roll over and agree to their proposals.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on November 27, 2018, 10:44:38 am
The problem is May. You can't have someone doing the negotiations who doesn't believe in it and has shown little negotiation skill.

Saying Brexit is a bad idea based on these negotiations is like saying Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a bad martial art because you're watching Butterbean use it against Jon Jones.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Savant on November 27, 2018, 11:00:55 am
The problem is May. You can't have someone doing the negotiations who doesn't believe in it and has shown little negotiation skill.

Saying Brexit is a bad idea based on these negotiations is like saying Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a bad martial art because you're watching Butterbean use it against Jon Jones.

She's doing the negotiations because no-one on the Tory Brexit side could do it. They tried and failed and then criticized the process.

You're right! She doesn't want to do it but she's doing her best to get something to Britain's benefit. That's me praising her even though I despise the Tories. She's the only conservative out there with the backbone to see the negotiations through.

The negotiating skills like...who? Who among the conservatives showed an appetite to negotiate with the EU?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: sligo on November 27, 2018, 11:01:59 am
The problem is May. You can't have someone doing the negotiations who doesn't believe in it and has shown little negotiation skill.

Saying Brexit is a bad idea based on these negotiations is like saying Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a bad martial art because you're watching Butterbean use it against Jon Jones.  But were promised (insert the greatest jiu-jitsu fighter of all time) would be fighting, and all advertising and promotion of the fight featured said guy.

FIFY

There should be criminal conviction due to the fraudulent promises made during the campaign.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: oglop on November 27, 2018, 02:46:59 pm
The problem is May. You can't have someone doing the negotiations who doesn't believe in it and has shown little negotiation skill.

Saying Brexit is a bad idea based on these negotiations is like saying Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a bad martial art because you're watching Butterbean use it against Jon Jones.
haha. butterbean. reminds me of K1, which i used to thoroughly enjoy as a kid. seems to have gone out of fashion these days sadly, perhaps because of the rise of UFC(?)
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: zola on November 27, 2018, 02:59:39 pm
The problem is May. You can't have someone doing the negotiations who doesn't believe in it and has shown little negotiation skill.

Saying Brexit is a bad idea based on these negotiations is like saying Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a bad martial art because you're watching Butterbean use it against Jon Jones.
haha. butterbean. reminds me of K1, which i used to thoroughly enjoy as a kid. seems to have gone out of fashion these days sadly, perhaps because of the rise of UFC(?)
Those freak show fights novelty factor wears off after a while. And eventually everyone realized that any fight coming from a Japanese promotion had a better than good chance of being fixed.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on November 27, 2018, 03:07:27 pm
]
Those freak show fights novelty factor wears off after a while. And eventually everyone realized that any fight coming from a Japanese promotion had a better than good chance of being fixed.
I'll say this, I totally thought Sapp-Noguiera was going to be a total freak-show work of a fight and was utterly disinterested. However, the utter pummeling Noguiera took that fight and his obvious frustration until he secured the armbar convinced me otherwise. I think after that all the freak fights sucked.

Let's have Semmy Schilt fight some Japanese lightweight. Or Giant Silva vs. some Sumo guy in kickboxing...
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: zola on November 27, 2018, 03:19:01 pm
]
Those freak show fights novelty factor wears off after a while. And eventually everyone realized that any fight coming from a Japanese promotion had a better than good chance of being fixed.
I'll say this, I totally thought Sapp-Noguiera was going to be a total freak-show work of a fight and was utterly disinterested. However, the utter pummeling Noguiera took that fight and his obvious frustration until he secured the armbar convinced me otherwise. I think after that all the freak fights sucked.

Let's have Semmy Schilt fight some Japanese lightweight. Or Giant Silva vs. some Sumo guy in kickboxing...
Hey, I like a good freak show as much as the next man. Some of those Saitama Super Arena New Year's Eve shows were insane. Pride had plans to have Mike Tyson (mid 2000s era) fight a kangaroo or something 6 months before the UFC bought them out.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Titus Groan on November 28, 2018, 10:37:28 am
   I'll just leave this here...

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bqGyHL8WJI

  Thanks!
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Aurata on November 28, 2018, 05:48:38 pm
Globalists? As opposed to nationalists?  Thanks, I'll take the former.

"Globalism" is in fact the conquest and destruction of Britain. As it is, unrestricted immigration has already been rapidly transforming Britain to an islamic state under sharia law.


Quote from: SPQR
Again, who?  Trade between the EU and UK is huge.

UK is a net importer from the EU.

EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU.


Globalism / NATO / the EU is countries cooperating to uplift the world.

Is it co-operation or dictatorship? member states have transferred their sovereign rights to the EU and Union law overrides their national laws.

Britain had a taste of this tyranny when butchers were arrested and fined for continuing to sell meat by the pound. The UK was forced to surrender their system of measurements (pounds and ounces). That was just the start. Pretty soon.. every aspect of life was being dictated by the EU.


Quote
How does the EU uplift with the world with its labyrinthine style of government? One can have a common market and mutual cooperation without the bureaucratic boondoggle that is the EU.

Exactly, the British can establish new economic relationships with the EU just as the US has done.

They could even strengthen ties to other growing economies of the world if they want- on their own terms, without having to toe the Brussels line.

They would also potentially be able to take their own independent political position on world affairs, without having to toe the EU line ("Israel is bad! Russia is bad!").
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Rusty Brown on November 29, 2018, 02:54:19 am
I voted remain out of fear. Our government spent nine million pounds of tax payer's money on their scaremongering campaign. The experts have so far got a helluva lot of things wrong and the vitriol from remainers and the EU has been utterly appalling. So, to hell with the EU, and up yours, Scotland. You'll soon change your tune when you get flooded with foreigners.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SPQR on November 29, 2018, 07:53:29 am
I voted remain out of fear. Our government spent nine million pounds of tax payer's money on their scaremongering campaign. The experts have so far got a helluva lot of things wrong and the vitriol from remainers and the EU has been utterly appalling. So, to hell with the EU, and up yours, Scotland. You'll soon change your tune when you get flooded with foreigners.

Out with foreigners!  Ein reich, ein volk, ein führer!
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: eggieguffer on November 29, 2018, 07:59:39 am
Do you want completely open borders?
Umm, no.
Well then, you're a Nazi :rolleyes:

Puerile.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Savant on November 29, 2018, 08:10:33 am
Do you want completely open borders?
Umm, no.
Well then, you're a Nazi :rolleyes:

Puerile.

Just the Jews and Muslims to kick out. Then, you're a Nazi.

I'm not in favor of complete open borders but I'm also not against denying people the right to legal migration and the taking in of refugees and those fleeing persecution.

So, not Germany's policy nor America First. Somewhere, in between.

Oh and Brexit is still a f@cktasrophe and Jacob Rees-Mogg is an upper-class cnut.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: eggieguffer on November 29, 2018, 08:24:33 am
Quote
but I'm also not against denying people the right to legal migration and the taking in of refugees and those fleeing persecution.

That's a lot of negatives. Doesn't it mean you want to deny people the right to legal migration?

Assuming you're OK with legal migration, taking in refugees and those fleeing persecution. Who isn't?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Savant on November 29, 2018, 08:28:07 am
Quote
but I'm also not against denying people the right to legal migration and the taking in of refugees and those fleeing persecution.

That's a lot of negatives. Doesn't it mean you want to deny people the right to legal migration?

Assuming you're OK with legal migration, taking in refugees and those fleeing persecution. Who isn't?

No! If a country has a robust legal migration system then sure they have a right to apply.

America First doesn't want any people from less desirable countries.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: eggieguffer on November 29, 2018, 08:33:08 am
Quote
but I'm also not against denying people the right to legal migration and the taking in of refugees and those fleeing persecution.

That's a lot of negatives. Doesn't it mean you want to deny people the right to legal migration?

Assuming you're OK with legal migration, taking in refugees and those fleeing persecution. Who isn't?

No! If a country has a robust legal migration system then sure they have a right to apply.

America First doesn't want any people from less desirable countries.

I think this is about the only thread on Waygook where US politics isn't on the agenda, so not interested in discussing it. Just wanted to curtail the Nazi name calling nonsense.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Savant on November 29, 2018, 08:43:20 am
Quote
but I'm also not against denying people the right to legal migration and the taking in of refugees and those fleeing persecution.

That's a lot of negatives. Doesn't it mean you want to deny people the right to legal migration?

Assuming you're OK with legal migration, taking in refugees and those fleeing persecution. Who isn't?

No! If a country has a robust legal migration system then sure they have a right to apply.

America First doesn't want any people from less desirable countries.

I think this is about the only thread on Waygook where US politics isn't on the agenda, so not interested in discussing it. Just wanted to curtail the Nazi name calling nonsense.

Agreed! Let's stick to looking at the lies, false hope and deceit perpetuated by the Pro-Brexit crowd.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on November 29, 2018, 09:23:39 am
Agreed! Let's stick to looking at the lies, false hope and deceit perpetuated by the Pro-Brexit crowd.
Yeah, not like the EU has ever traded in those. All political parties make optimistic claims, but the core issue of Brexit isn't NHS money or fishing waters, it's sovereignty, something the globalists just don't understand.

I would rather have my own bad government than the good government of an alien power.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Savant on November 29, 2018, 09:28:59 am
Agreed! Let's stick to looking at the lies, false hope and deceit perpetuated by the Pro-Brexit crowd.
Yeah, not like the EU has ever traded in those. All political parties make optimistic claims, but the core issue of Brexit isn't NHS money or fishing waters, it's sovereignty, something the globalists just don't understand.

I would rather have my own bad government than the good government of an alien power.

Optimistic claims is different from blatant lies.

Breaking News! Britain isn't the superpower it once was. The old days of Empire are long gone. Our Navy equivalent is some guys in a couple of rowing boats.

The Brexiteers wanted out from the EU but wanted to do none of the heavy lifting required to get a good deal for the UK.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: tylerthegloob on November 29, 2018, 09:29:08 am
Agreed! Let's stick to looking at the lies, false hope and deceit perpetuated by the Pro-Brexit crowd.
Yeah, not like the EU has ever traded in those. All political parties make optimistic claims, but the core issue of Brexit isn't NHS money or fishing waters, it's sovereignty, something the globalists just don't understand.

I would rather have my own bad government than the good government of an alien power.

What does it mean for a government to be "one's own"?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on November 29, 2018, 10:00:29 am
What does it mean for a government to be "one's own"?
That the people of a nation are the final arbiter of any law and they have control over the leaders who make the laws.

Anyways, regardless of Brexit the EU is inherently incapable of existing for a sustained period of time. It's system of government is so labyrinthine and unaccountable that they will either bureaucracy themselves to death OR make some sort of overreach and it will eventually collapse.

Does anyone here actually think the EU's structure is good for governing 500 million people while maintaining transparency and accountability? Why support a structure that has inherent design flaws and seems destined for collapse. The EU is NOT the Leaning Tower of Pisa. It is a flawed design that should be torn down and perhaps people can come up with something better.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: tylerthegloob on November 29, 2018, 10:28:17 am
What does it mean for a government to be "one's own"?
That the people of a nation are the final arbiter of any law and they have control over the leaders who make the laws.


But this isn't incompatible with globalism. Would you be opposed to a global union of nations structured similar to that of the the US (assuming the structure of the US government fits your description above)?

In other words, do you take issue with the structure of the EU or with the general project of building international organizations?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SPQR on November 29, 2018, 11:11:54 am

I would rather have my own bad government than the good government of an alien power.


Right. So you would rather have a Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Idi Amin as long as he's not a
bloody foreigner.

Right. (pronounced very slowly and mockingly)
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: JNM on November 29, 2018, 11:31:06 am
Agreed! Let's stick to looking at the lies, false hope and deceit perpetuated by the Pro-Brexit crowd.
Yeah, not like the EU has ever traded in those. All political parties make optimistic claims, but the core issue of Brexit isn't NHS money or fishing waters, it's sovereignty, something the globalists just don't understand.

I would rather have my own bad government than the good government of an alien power.

Optimistic claims is different from blatant lies.

Breaking News! Britain isn't the superpower it once was. The old days of Empire are long gone. Our Navy equivalent is some guys in a couple of rowing boats.

The Brexiteers wanted out from the EU but wanted to do none of the heavy lifting required to get a good deal for the UK.
Re: Royal Navy

They still got nukes, so there’s that.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Rusty Brown on November 29, 2018, 05:49:52 pm
Out with foreigners!  Ein reich, ein volk, ein führer!

Chance would be a fine thing!
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Titus Groan on November 30, 2018, 07:52:20 am


   No, given Merkel's part in this fiasco it should be 'AUSLANDERS RAUS'!
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on November 30, 2018, 08:32:02 am
But this isn't incompatible with globalism. Would you be opposed to a global union of nations structured similar to that of the the US (assuming the structure of the US government fits your description above)?

In other words, do you take issue with the structure of the EU or with the general project of building international organizations?
The EU is not an international organization, it's an international government. International organizations are something like NATO or FIFA or UNICEF.

If you're going to have a common currency, you essentially have to surrender your sovereignty. You cannot have a common currency and national independence and have it be sustainable (unless you're a microstate). We have seen the pitfalls and what it means for the governments of the countries.

We can still have international cooperation and agreements and markets WITHOUT the EU. In fact, the relationship between Canada-Australia-New Zealand-UK has been much more stable despite separate governments and currencies. Would you be in favor of them forming a Commonwealth Parliament, Commission, and Presidency which would dictate markets, form a common currency, mandate restrictions, and see you in Canada, ruled again by England or Australia? If you lean labour, would you enjoy being ruled by a Tory government in the UK? Or perhaps lets bring America back into the fold and you can be ruled by Trump.

Or actually, you'd probably end up ruled by George W. Bush, given that the EU governments tend to elect people who recently lost elections in their own countries.

Is faith in the EU really based on a rational belief in its organization and structure? Or is it a combination of irrational fear of "the war that might be" combined with wanting to FEEL enlightened and humanist?

Quote
Right. So you would rather have a Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Idi Amin as long as he's not a
bloody foreigner


Teresa May is not Pol Pot. Give me a freaking break. Yes, I would rather have America under the administration of Andrew Johnson or Andrew Jackson or George W. Bush or Warren G. Harding or Richard Nixon than Jean-Claude Juncker or Martin Schulz or Herman Van Rompuy.

The thing with national sovereignty is that once you give it up, it's really hard to get it back. Great Britain isn't a full member and look at the tumult. Now imagine if you're one of the countries IN the Eurozone.

And lastly, you seem to assume that the EU will always be "good" for some reason I cannot fathom. What happens if the EU ever becomes "bad" or "evil"? How exactly are you going to hold its leaders to account? What leverage would you have over them?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: oglop on November 30, 2018, 08:40:28 am
Out with foreigners!  Ein reich, ein volk, ein führer!

Chance would be a fine thing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9FGxAt1cKw
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: tylerthegloob on November 30, 2018, 09:08:16 am
But this isn't incompatible with globalism. Would you be opposed to a global union of nations structured similar to that of the the US (assuming the structure of the US government fits your description above)?

In other words, do you take issue with the structure of the EU or with the general project of building international organizations?

We can still have international cooperation and agreements and markets WITHOUT the EU. In fact, the relationship between Canada-Australia-New Zealand-UK has been much more stable despite separate governments and currencies. Would you be in favor of them forming a Commonwealth Parliament, Commission, and Presidency which would dictate markets, form a common currency, mandate restrictions, and see you in Canada, ruled again by England or Australia? If you lean labour, would you enjoy being ruled by a Tory government in the UK? Or perhaps lets bring America back into the fold and you can be ruled by Trump.



Yeah, I get that you're not a fan of the EU. I'm more interested in your opinion on international governments and organizations in general (as both of those are what I would call "globalist" projects).

To answer your question, I don't mind the idea of international governments on a philosophical level. I wouldn't mind being ruled by someone like Trump from a different country any more than I mind being ruled by the real Trump of my own country. So long as my city, state, and country retain some amount of autonomy, I don't see it as being much different.

I understand the practical considerations and I respect them. It might even be impossible for a global or semi-global government to run effectively. I'm just more interested in the philosophical justifications for supporting or resisting the movement.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on November 30, 2018, 11:56:06 am
Yeah, I get that you're not a fan of the EU. I'm more interested in your opinion on international governments and organizations in general (as both of those are what I would call "globalist" projects).

To answer your question, I don't mind the idea of international governments on a philosophical level. I wouldn't mind being ruled by someone like Trump from a different country any more than I mind being ruled by the real Trump of my own country. So long as my city, state, and country retain some amount of autonomy, I don't see it as being much different.

I understand the practical considerations and I respect them. It might even be impossible for a global or semi-global government to run effectively. I'm just more interested in the philosophical justifications for supporting or resisting the movement.
We are a long long long looooooonnnnnnggggg g ways away from humanity being ready for any kind of international government beyond the UN. I think that's about as powerful as we can let an international government become at this stage.

The worst thing about international governments are their arrogance and hubris. The people who seek to establish them invariably have an overinflated sense of their own self-worth and lack of appreciation for how error prone and corruptible people are.

I don't want to be ruled by Trudeau or Putin or Juncker or whoever. No organization or country has reached the point where I would be comfortable with that. Not even close. The gap between a Merkel and a Putin, in real development terms, is about the distance from my cuticle to me knuckle on the scale of development. We have quite a ways to go.

The fact is it boils down to human nature- Humans are not inherently good and are incredibly susceptible to corruption. If you believe otherwise, you're an idiot. While some global government or EU or might start out well, it will become corrupt or functionless or something else. That autonomy you say you wish you retained, will inevitably stripped away because people seek power and control. It is in their nature.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: tylerthegloob on November 30, 2018, 12:14:50 pm
Yeah, I get that you're not a fan of the EU. I'm more interested in your opinion on international governments and organizations in general (as both of those are what I would call "globalist" projects).

To answer your question, I don't mind the idea of international governments on a philosophical level. I wouldn't mind being ruled by someone like Trump from a different country any more than I mind being ruled by the real Trump of my own country. So long as my city, state, and country retain some amount of autonomy, I don't see it as being much different.

I understand the practical considerations and I respect them. It might even be impossible for a global or semi-global government to run effectively. I'm just more interested in the philosophical justifications for supporting or resisting the movement.

The fact is it boils down to human nature- Humans are not inherently good and are incredibly susceptible to corruption. If you believe otherwise, you're an idiot. While some global government or EU or might start out well, it will become corrupt or functionless or something else. That autonomy you say you wish you retained, will inevitably stripped away because people seek power and control. It is in their nature.

Right. Humans are also not inherently evil and are incredibly susceptible to be well socialized. And I don't see why your argument about global governments wouldn't equally apply to national governments. I agree we have a loooooooooooong way to go and it would have to be in small steps, but I don't see it as an inherently doomed project.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Aurata on December 07, 2018, 03:05:31 pm
Humans are also not inherently evil and are incredibly susceptible to be well socialized. And I don't see why your argument about global governments wouldn't equally apply to national governments.


Everything in human history proves the opposite.

I don't know if you've studied history much, but basically humans strive to amass wealth power and influence over others. Once they get it, they start oppressing others in order to enrich themselves further. People are corrupt, and power corrupts them even further.


Quote
I agree we have a loooooooooooong way to go and it would have to be in small steps, but I don't see it as an inherently doomed project.


So you want to ignore the lessons of history and instead centralize power even more, into even fewer hands, and hope for the best?

Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: tylerthegloob on December 07, 2018, 03:23:31 pm

Everything in human history proves the opposite.

Misleading at best.

Quote
I don't know if you've studied history much,

Condescension [check]

Quote
but basically humans strive to amass wealth power and influence over others. Once they get it, they start oppressing others in order to enrich themselves further. People are corrupt, and power corrupts them even further.

Oversimplification of human nature [check]

Quote
So you want to ignore the lessons of history and instead centralize power even more, into even fewer hands, and hope for the best?

Begging the question [check]

Nice, you're pretty good at this. I can play too. You're like a abecedarian Machiavelli. I suggest you branch out from your "historical" approach and try taking a look at some more scientific approaches to questions about human nature. And, for what it's worth, power can be broad without being overly centralized. But I'm sure that's another black and white issue for you.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Aurata on December 07, 2018, 03:34:51 pm
You're like a [redacted] Machiavelli.

I don't enjoy being attacked by someone I was perfectly civil towards.


Quote
Quote
Everything in human history proves the opposite.

Misleading at best.

So try to make a convincing argument.

Commiting ad-homs just because you're in a corner isn't going to cut it.

Quote
And, for what it's worth, power can be broad without being overly centralized.

Thats not what happens and neither is it the system you are supporting. Lets see, you have made excuses for the totally undemocratic EU and now you're making positive noises about Chinas hideous social credit system. So you not only want people controlled and dominated by a central government, you want technology to make it absolutely inescapable for them.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: tylerthegloob on December 08, 2018, 03:57:23 pm
Everything in human history proves the opposite.


Quote
Misleading at best.

So try to make a convincing argument.


Thats not what happens and neither is it the system you are supporting. Lets see, you have made excuses for the totally undemocratic EU and now you're making positive noises about Chinas hideous social credit system. So you not only want people controlled and dominated by a central government, you want technology to make it absolutely inescapable for them.

I think you should read what I wrote about China again. 'Tino said we have something similar in the US and I said China's system is far worse.

Also, I don't see why I should take the time to make a convincing argument when all you've thrown out are a few unsupported oversimplifications ("basically humans strive to amass wealth power and influence over others" and "people are corrupt") and some condescension ("I don't know if you've studied history much...").

If you want to provide any data or evidence proving humans are inherently corrupt (other than """look at history bro""") then go for it. If you want to argue that everything in human history proves that humans are inherently evil... uhhhh good luck (but I'm sure you already know that you can't prove that).

I know I'm not going to change your mind (and if we keep going like this, you're not going to change mine either), so I'd rather not waste anyone's time. Honestly, if you hadn't suggested that I'm ignorant of history, I probably wouldn't have responded the first time. Again, if you hadn't mischaracterized what I said about China, I probably wouldn't have responded this time.

Happy Saturday!
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: sligo on December 08, 2018, 05:29:38 pm
As people voted for ideas, notions, lies and possibilities; most of which could never happen individually, let alone together as part of a deal, the original vote is kind of meaningless.  The deal that is on the table bears little to no resemblance to the wishes of the people in 2016.  What is more, those who were 16 and denied a voice in a deal that will affect them for longer than any other Brits, can now legally have a say.  There should be a second referendum, because now there can be no lies.  The deal on the table IS Brexit.  There can be no uncertainty, and no dead end arguments about what leave "may" mean.

When the referendum happened, the remain side were the only ones who had any idea what a victory would represent.  The hyperbole of the leave camp stating "it will be the easiest deal in history" mislead a large number, and in truth, leave was just a notion, and only NOW can people see what it means.

Now there is a deal, a second referendum should be offered where the 2 choices are final, concrete and objective.  Brexit will really mean Brexit!

Truth be told, these negotiation should have been done before the first referendum.  The deal should have been published and the leave campaign should have argued based on the facts of the deal, not desires and possibilities.  I guarantee, if people had the choice between remain, and this deal, remain would have won by a landslide!
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on December 09, 2018, 10:19:13 am
Right. Humans are also not inherently evil and are incredibly susceptible to be well socialized. And I don't see why your argument about global governments wouldn't equally apply to national governments. I agree we have a loooooooooooong way to go and it would have to be in small steps, but I don't see it as an inherently doomed project.
Actually, humans ARE inherently evil. It's in our DNA. Yes we have the ability to cooperate, but it's usually for selfish purposes. Our species did not evolve with the purpose of living in harmony with nature and creating a harmonious, non predatory society. It evolved to ruthlessly compete, usually on a familial or tribal level. Our brains aren't even structured to process reality and you want them to create global idealized societies?

National governments are more easy to contain and overthrow than global governments. Look at the EU- once you get in, its almost impossible to get out unless the whole thing collapses. And if it does collapse, it will be catastrophic to an entire continent. National sovereignty is something that has been very hard to win and you should be very cautious in giving it up, because once you do so, you might never get it back.

If you want to provide any data or evidence proving humans are inherently corrupt (other than """look at history bro""") then go for it. If you want to argue that everything in human history proves that humans are inherently evil... uhhhh good luck (but I'm sure you already know that you can't prove that).
A bunch of psychological studies that have shown that humans will behave in an evil fashion at the drop of a hat when given power over other human beings, with many of these types of studies being no longer ethically permissible because of the distinct likelihood of criminal/civil liability being a result.

Look at the smoking threads- A simple trigger of physical disgust results in someone willing to deny other people the basic freedom of association, retroactively justified with science or "rights" to support their disgust-based legalism. As people have pointed out, there's no rational basis for the 2nd hand smoke on the sidewalk concern, nor is anyone forced to work or enter a smoking bar or club. Yet people's sense of disgust overrides their reason and causes them to demand control over other people in a bar or club they will never set foot in, nor want to set foot in.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on December 09, 2018, 10:27:30 am
As people voted for ideas, notions, lies and possibilities; most of which could never happen individually, let alone together as part of a deal, the original vote is kind of meaningless. 
I think people understood it well around one core principle- Britain decides, not the EU.

Quote
There should be a second referendum, because now there can be no lies.  The deal on the table IS Brexit.  There can be no uncertainty, and no dead end arguments about what leave "may" mean.
I do agree that there is some validity on this argument, however the deal on the table IS NOT Brexit.

Britain should tell the EU to go eff itself and withdraw unilaterally. There will be painful moments. There were painful moments when India became independent. Same with the United States. But the long-term benefits will outweigh those costs. You will have your sovereignty, your birthright. That is worth more than any freedom of movement or favorable tariffs.

The deal should never have been negotiated by someone who didn't believe in it.

Quote
When the referendum happened, the remain side were the only ones who had any idea what a victory would represent.

This is a myth. I've yet to find a remainer who can even describe how the EU's government works and what bodies are responsible for what. Those that attempt to do so invariably have to check the internet. You ask people in any country how their government works and laws get made and they can tell you right off the top of their heads. Not with the EU.

That's really bad. In fact, to me that's disqualifying as a form of government. A government that functions like that CANNOT be accountable nor sustainable.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: sligo on December 09, 2018, 12:14:53 pm
As people voted for ideas, notions, lies and possibilities; most of which could never happen individually, let alone together as part of a deal, the original vote is kind of meaningless. 
I think people understood it well around one core principle- Britain decides, not the EU.

Quote
There should be a second referendum, because now there can be no lies.  The deal on the table IS Brexit.  There can be no uncertainty, and no dead end arguments about what leave "may" mean.
I do agree that there is some validity on this argument, however the deal on the table IS NOT Brexit.

Britain should tell the EU to go eff itself and withdraw unilaterally. There will be painful moments. There were painful moments when India became independent. Same with the United States. But the long-term benefits will outweigh those costs. You will have your sovereignty, your birthright. That is worth more than any freedom of movement or favorable tariffs.

The deal should never have been negotiated by someone who didn't believe in it.

Quote
When the referendum happened, the remain side were the only ones who had any idea what a victory would represent.

This is a myth. I've yet to find a remainer who can even describe how the EU's government works and what bodies are responsible for what. Those that attempt to do so invariably have to check the internet. You ask people in any country how their government works and laws get made and they can tell you right off the top of their heads. Not with the EU.

That's really bad. In fact, to me that's disqualifying as a form of government. A government that functions like that CANNOT be accountable nor sustainable.

1, This could be the most stupid thing you have ever posted.  Every trade deal, every export licence, every import licence, every piece of legislation that allows movement of goods and individuals are all tied up in the EU membership deal.  If the UK leaves with no deal:

All EU seasonal workers will have to leave, or reapply for their jobs via a visa the next day, basically every cleaner in the NHS, every fruit picker, and many factory workers that do jobs for minimum wage that UK workers don't want to do.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45714413

No animlas will be allowed to be exported or imported.  All vet clearance certificates are underwritten by the EU farming commission, the UK will no longer be able to use those guarantees.
https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/eu-referendum/no-deal-brexit-risks-meat-industry-eu-export-delays

car insurance will not cover EU travel, which means that anyone who wants to drive to the continent will have to increase their insurance premiuims.  Also, certain safety checks may be needed as cars will no longer be covered by EU agreements.
https://inews.co.uk/essentials/lifestyle/cars/car-news/no-deal-brexit-car-insurance/

UK citizens living abroad.  They will have to come home straight away.  They will have to leave their property, employment and potentially family.  What is more, UK laws state a migrant returning has to wait 3 months for health and social care.  So this will create a second class of citizens who will be ineligible for help from the state, including health care for any long term issues they may face.
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/money-legal/benefits-entitlements/returning-to-the-uk-after-living-abroad-heading/

Kent, the gateway to (export/import) Europe will be devestated, an airport has been earmarked as a lorry park whilst vehicle wait as they will no longer be covered by EU import / export rules.  It is estimated that 10,000 lorries will be stuck on either side of the English Chanel.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/no-deal-brexit-chaos-could-13699642

I could go on, but as for your second point:

Do you really think you can compare India's independence with Brexit?

There were no cyber security issues, no global trade deals, no citizens living in other countries that may lose their homes, livelihoods or rights. 

India was breaking ties with 1 country.  the Uk will be breaking all ties with most of the world.  All treaties are EU treaties, so leaving the EU means having to negotiate seperate treaties from scratch with pretty much every nation in the world.  This could take decades. 

The talk of this being a benefit to all, has changed to "Maybe in 50 years".  This is what you get when you get the party that managed to double the national debt in a time of austerity, to do the negotiation. 

Side note:  Rees-Mogg , the Edwardian bell-end who has pushed so hard for Brexit, has moved all his assets to Ireland so he can still profit from the EU.  Conservatives, the party of the (rich, elite, toffee-nosed-cunts, landed gentry) everyday people!

As for the remainers.  they knew exactly what remain meant.  It meant tomorrow will be the same as today.  You don't know how an internal combustion engine works to know that the next number 2 bus will be along in 15 minutes!
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: tylerthegloob on December 09, 2018, 01:07:29 pm

If you want to provide any data or evidence proving humans are inherently corrupt (other than """look at history bro""") then go for it. If you want to argue that everything in human history proves that humans are inherently evil... uhhhh good luck (but I'm sure you already know that you can't prove that).
A bunch of psychological studies that have shown that humans will behave in an evil fashion at the drop of a hat when given power over other human beings, with many of these types of studies being no longer ethically permissible because of the distinct likelihood of criminal/civil liability being a result.


Humans will behave in an evil fashion =/= humans are inherently evil.

It's a stupid discussion to have started in the first place. I think we both know that you can't prove humans are inherently evil (as opposed to good). We have the capacity to behave "in an evil fashion" but that doesn't prove anything because we also have the capacity to behave in a moral fashion.

Nothing I have ever read on the topic has suggested that humans are mostly evil or err on the side of evil. If you have something that suggests humans are fundamentally evil, please share it.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Rusty Brown on December 10, 2018, 02:47:58 am
As people voted for ideas, notions, lies and possibilities; most of which could never happen individually, let alone together as part of a deal, the original vote is kind of meaningless. 
I think people understood it well around one core principle- Britain decides, not the EU.

Quote
There should be a second referendum, because now there can be no lies.  The deal on the table IS Brexit.  There can be no uncertainty, and no dead end arguments about what leave "may" mean.
I do agree that there is some validity on this argument, however the deal on the table IS NOT Brexit.

Britain should tell the EU to go eff itself and withdraw unilaterally. There will be painful moments. There were painful moments when India became independent. Same with the United States. But the long-term benefits will outweigh those costs. You will have your sovereignty, your birthright. That is worth more than any freedom of movement or favorable tariffs.

The deal should never have been negotiated by someone who didn't believe in it.

Quote
When the referendum happened, the remain side were the only ones who had any idea what a victory would represent.

This is a myth. I've yet to find a remainer who can even describe how the EU's government works and what bodies are responsible for what. Those that attempt to do so invariably have to check the internet. You ask people in any country how their government works and laws get made and they can tell you right off the top of their heads. Not with the EU.

That's really bad. In fact, to me that's disqualifying as a form of government. A government that functions like that CANNOT be accountable nor sustainable.

1, This could be the most stupid thing you have ever posted.  Every trade deal, every export licence, every import licence, every piece of legislation that allows movement of goods and individuals are all tied up in the EU membership deal.  If the UK leaves with no deal:

All EU seasonal workers will have to leave, or reapply for their jobs via a visa the next day, basically every cleaner in the NHS, every fruit picker, and many factory workers that do jobs for minimum wage that UK workers don't want to do.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45714413

No animlas will be allowed to be exported or imported.  All vet clearance certificates are underwritten by the EU farming commission, the UK will no longer be able to use those guarantees.
https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/eu-referendum/no-deal-brexit-risks-meat-industry-eu-export-delays

car insurance will not cover EU travel, which means that anyone who wants to drive to the continent will have to increase their insurance premiuims.  Also, certain safety checks may be needed as cars will no longer be covered by EU agreements.
https://inews.co.uk/essentials/lifestyle/cars/car-news/no-deal-brexit-car-insurance/

UK citizens living abroad.  They will have to come home straight away.  They will have to leave their property, employment and potentially family.  What is more, UK laws state a migrant returning has to wait 3 months for health and social care.  So this will create a second class of citizens who will be ineligible for help from the state, including health care for any long term issues they may face.
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/money-legal/benefits-entitlements/returning-to-the-uk-after-living-abroad-heading/

Kent, the gateway to (export/import) Europe will be devestated, an airport has been earmarked as a lorry park whilst vehicle wait as they will no longer be covered by EU import / export rules.  It is estimated that 10,000 lorries will be stuck on either side of the English Chanel.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/no-deal-brexit-chaos-could-13699642

I could go on, but as for your second point:

Do you really think you can compare India's independence with Brexit?

There were no cyber security issues, no global trade deals, no citizens living in other countries that may lose their homes, livelihoods or rights. 

India was breaking ties with 1 country.  the Uk will be breaking all ties with most of the world.  All treaties are EU treaties, so leaving the EU means having to negotiate seperate treaties from scratch with pretty much every nation in the world.  This could take decades. 

The talk of this being a benefit to all, has changed to "Maybe in 50 years".  This is what you get when you get the party that managed to double the national debt in a time of austerity, to do the negotiation. 

Side note:  Rees-Mogg , the Edwardian bell-end who has pushed so hard for Brexit, has moved all his assets to Ireland so he can still profit from the EU.  Conservatives, the party of the (rich, elite, toffee-nosed-cunts, landed gentry) everyday people!

As for the remainers.  they knew exactly what remain meant.  It meant tomorrow will be the same as today.  You don't know how an internal combustion engine works to know that the next number 2 bus will be along in 15 minutes!

All minor setbacks which most probably won't come into fruition. Leavers also knew what remaining would entail, hence why they voted leave. I support a 'people's vote' because I don't know anyone who's changed their mind and I think Leave would win by a bigger margin this time, now that we've seen the EU's true colours.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on December 10, 2018, 09:23:39 am
Do you really think you can compare India's independence with Brexit?

There were no cyber security issues, no global trade deals, no citizens living in other countries that may lose their homes, livelihoods or rights
Dude...Yeah, no one living in one country was worried about losing their homes and rights when India gained its independence. I mean, aside from that whole Pakistan thing, but whatever. :rolleyes:

Yeah, just that whole hundreds of years of colonial rule punctuated by occasional machine-gunnings of hundreds of civilians, culminating in a violent separation and a couple of wars. But hey, that's small potatoes compared to cyber-security and trade deals.

Quote
The talk of this being a benefit to all, has changed to "Maybe in 50 years".  This is what you get when you get the party that managed to double the national debt in a time of austerity, to do the negotiation. 

Side note:  Rees-Mogg , the Edwardian bell-end who has pushed so hard for Brexit, has moved all his assets to Ireland so he can still profit from the EU.  Conservatives, the party of the (rich, elite, toffee-nosed-cunts, landed gentry) everyday people!

Yes, not everything about Leave is perfect 100% of the time. That doesn't have anything to do with the central issues- A) That your national sovereignty is an incredibly precious asset that should not be given away lightly for some trinkets like being able to vacation in Spain and cheaper goods and B) that the EU is a fundamentally flawed form of government and is inherently unaccountable and destined for failure.

Quote
As for the remainers.  they knew exactly what remain meant.  It meant tomorrow will be the same as today.  You don't know how an internal combustion engine works to know that the next number 2 bus will be along in 15 minutes!

Thank you for admitting that the Remain campaign was based on ignorance and obliviousness.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: sligo on December 10, 2018, 09:41:53 am
Do you really think you can compare India's independence with Brexit?

There were no cyber security issues, no global trade deals, no citizens living in other countries that may lose their homes, livelihoods or rights
Dude...Yeah, no one living in one country was worried about losing their homes and rights when India gained its independence. I mean, aside from that whole Pakistan thing, but whatever. :rolleyes:

Yeah, just that whole hundreds of years of colonial rule punctuated by occasional machine-gunnings of hundreds of civilians, culminating in a violent separation and a couple of wars. But hey, that's small potatoes compared to cyber-security and trade deals.

Quote
The talk of this being a benefit to all, has changed to "Maybe in 50 years".  This is what you get when you get the party that managed to double the national debt in a time of austerity, to do the negotiation. 

Side note:  Rees-Mogg , the Edwardian bell-end who has pushed so hard for Brexit, has moved all his assets to Ireland so he can still profit from the EU.  Conservatives, the party of the (rich, elite, toffee-nosed-cunts, landed gentry) everyday people!

Yes, not everything about Leave is perfect 100% of the time. That doesn't have anything to do with the central issues- A) That your national sovereignty is an incredibly precious asset that should not be given away lightly for some trinkets like being able to vacation in Spain and cheaper goods and B) that the EU is a fundamentally flawed form of government and is inherently unaccountable and destined for failure.

Quote
As for the remainers.  they knew exactly what remain meant.  It meant tomorrow will be the same as today.  You don't know how an internal combustion engine works to know that the next number 2 bus will be along in 15 minutes!

Thank you for admitting that the Remain campaign was based on ignorance and obliviousness.

Once again you go off topic, and down weird tangents to make points irrelevant to the topic.  The Pakistan issue happened aftwr independence, so nothing to do with Indian independence.  Also all existing EU laws will be sogned into the statute books, so not much sovereignty there.  Also the EU will still be the main trade partner, so all manufacturing will have to abide by EU law still, in order to be accepted on the continent.

As for remain voters being ignorant (which i disagree with, and my point wasn't saying at all; do you have to know all aspects of something in order to benefit from it? Can you explain how the computer code for this forum platform works?  You seem to benefit from it, does that mean you are ignorant?), is that better than buying a lie just because it was sugar coated?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on December 10, 2018, 09:55:48 am
Humans will behave in an evil fashion =/= humans are inherently evil.
Humans are selfish as infants and continue on as such for the rest of their lives.

Quote
We have the capacity to behave "in an evil fashion" but that doesn't prove anything because we also have the capacity to behave in a moral fashion.
We are genetically predisposed and bred through evolution to NOT behave in a moral or rational fashion but to instead behave in a tribal, competitive, reproductive-focused, selfish fashion.

"Me against my brother. My brother and me against our cousins. Us and our cousins against the World."

Quote
Nothing I have ever read on the topic has suggested that humans are mostly evil or err on the side of evil. If you have something that suggests humans are fundamentally evil, please share it.

The internet.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: sligo on December 11, 2018, 06:29:08 am
https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/brexit/2nd-eu-referendum

There is a lot of money being wagered on a second referendum.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SPQR on December 11, 2018, 08:12:31 am
Yeah. Probably being wagered by the same dullards that voted to leave.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on May 27, 2019, 08:49:17 am
I'm not sure (apart from trump) if there is a more punchable face in world politics than nigel farage.   >:(  not just punching, but running over too.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: eggieguffer on May 27, 2019, 10:04:02 am

[/quote]
I'm not sure (apart from trump) if there is a more punchable face in world politics than nigel farage.   >:(  not just punching, but running over too.

I'd suggest Jess Phillips but that'd probably be breaking some hate speech laws.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on May 27, 2019, 11:57:08 am
Remain parties: 40.4%
Hard Brexit parties: 34.9%
Conservatives/Labour: 23.2%

Does that seem that there could be a second people's vote on the horizon?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SPQR on May 27, 2019, 01:06:47 pm
Remain parties: 40.4%
Hard Brexit parties: 34.9%
Conservatives/Labour: 23.2%

Does that seem that there could be a second people's vote on the horizon?

Source?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 27, 2019, 01:11:08 pm
Why people would take something that requires generations and blood to gain and ensure (national sovereignty) and trade it all away for the cheap thrills of slightly reduced consumer goods prices and slightly easier travel when on vacation is beyond me.  Sure it might be fine for 20-40 years, but if something goes wrong, it will go REALLY wrong and it will be incredibly hard to get back what was given up.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: kyndo on May 27, 2019, 01:27:49 pm
Why people would take something that requires generations and blood to gain and ensure (national sovereignty) and trade it all away for the cheap thrills of slightly reduced consumer goods prices and slightly easier travel when on vacation is beyond me.  Sure it might be fine for 20-40 years, but if something goes wrong, it will go REALLY wrong and it will be incredibly hard to get back what was given up.
Your 13 colonies did exactly that when they unified. Heck, they even had similar promises of autonomy under the new government.
There were advantages to being a unified whole rather than being a multitude of small, independent entities and the same it true today.
The EU is better equipped to deal with Chinese economic aggression, or Russian ones, or even American ones. Reshuffling political systems is a pretty small price to pay, honestly.

Human history has been a long, slow journey from tiny roving family units, to tribes, to city-states, to nations, to international societies.
Maybe there *will* one day be global government like Star Trek's "united Earth".

Not saying that I'm necessarily a huge fan of this, but it does seem to be the path that our collective political history is following
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 27, 2019, 02:04:24 pm
The 13 colonies had no established currency and could have faced invasion and conquest by the French or the British. They also shared a common language (for the most part) and common religion (for the most part). Of course there were millions of indigenous and enslaved people who were not a part of that, but if you're asking why the colonists formed a Union, there were factors unique to the States that do not apply to Europe.

The difference in "Chinese economic aggression" or "Russian aggression" from an EU-Europe vs. a non-EU one is likely negligible. The geopolitical situation would likely still be very similar to the one we have now. The U.S. nuclear deterrent would still prevent Russians swarming into Poland with or without the EU.

Add to that, the lack of recognition for minority peoples in the EU. And by that I mean Scottish, Welsh, Cornish, Manx, Breton, Catalan, Frisian, Basque, and other cultures, which will likely be extinct or on the verge 2100 thanks to the homogeneity that will be brought. Europe's strength was in its diversity of peoples and traditions and that will be placed under more and more stress.

And again, people assume that the EU will continue to act benevolently and will always be so. Given the structure of its government, at best it could continue as an ineffective but relatively benign bloatocracy.  At worst we get something that parallels the Soviet system with a few more smiles. Small nations all over the globe are doing fine, thriving in many cases, and we aren't calling them racists and xenophobes for not being enveloped by their closest large neighbor. "Those damn Kuwaitis, why don't they realize that their time is up and just surrender their sovereignty to the Saudis!" No one would say that is a good idea. No one would say that Kuwait's prosperity depends on such a scheme. And that Kuwaiti independence was shown to be a very precious thing and something that should be cherished. Why give it up?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: kyndo on May 27, 2019, 04:53:39 pm
The 13 colonies had no established currency and could have faced invasion and conquest by the French or the British. They also shared a common language (for the most part) and common religion (for the most part). Of course there were millions of indigenous and enslaved people who were not a part of that, but if you're asking why the colonists formed a Union, there were factors unique to the States that do not apply to Europe.
My point wasn't that the colonists formed a union because they were facing the same pressures, but because the formation of a union creates a unified front that can more effectively resist many different kinds of external pressures. The EU had many reasons for its formation, but this was certainly one of them.

The difference in "Chinese economic aggression" or "Russian aggression" from an EU-Europe vs. a non-EU one is likely negligible. The geopolitical situation would likely still be very similar to the one we have now. The U.S. nuclear deterrent would still prevent Russians swarming into Poland with or without the EU.
        Absolutely not. China has been accused of unfair trade practices with African economies. They are able to do this because those economies are developing, and because they are isolated from one another. Trade blocs like NAFTA, ASEAN, and the EU form because they are able to leverage their much larger markets, protecting them from economic predators. Keep in mind that I specified economic, not military protection. I agree that it's NATO that keeps (kept?) Russia out, not the EU. That's not what the EU is for.

Your other points are valid but didn't really relate to my point so I'll let somebody else attack them.  :smiley:
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SPQR on May 27, 2019, 06:03:14 pm
The EU is the biggest voluntary, progressive and positive social
construction ever undertaken by the human race.  Instead of
self interested, parochial and primitive armed camps, the EU
transcends nationalistic tribalism and replaces it with an
extremely advanced cohesion never before seen on the  planet.

Moreover, it brings together over half a billion people to form
the second biggest economic block in the world.
https://www.thebalance.com/world-s-largest-economy-3306044
And going further, it not only has an amazing economy, but
also exhibits the most enlightened human rights and environmental
policies on earth.

It is, indeed, something the human race can finally be proud of.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: NorthStar on May 27, 2019, 06:26:40 pm
Why people would take something that requires generations and blood to gain and ensure (national sovereignty) and trade it all away for the cheap thrills of slightly reduced consumer goods prices and slightly easier travel when on vacation is beyond me.  Sure it might be fine for 20-40 years, but if something goes wrong, it will go REALLY wrong and it will be incredibly hard to get back what was given up.

I have to agree with the Doc on that...(and from now on, I'll refrain from the harshness on his defense of S.K.)
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 27, 2019, 08:46:40 pm

My point wasn't that the colonists formed a union because they were facing the same pressures, but because the formation of a union creates a unified front that can more effectively resist many different kinds of external pressures. The EU had many reasons for its formation, but this was certainly one of them.

        Absolutely not. China has been accused of unfair trade practices with African economies. They are able to do this because those economies are developing, and because they are isolated from one another. Trade blocs like NAFTA, ASEAN, and the EU form because they are able to leverage their much larger markets, protecting them from economic predators. Keep in mind that I specified economic, not military protection. I agree that it's NATO that keeps (kept?) Russia out, not the EU. That's not what the EU is for.

Your other points are valid but didn't really relate to my point so I'll let somebody else attack them.  :smiley:

I think an EU-lite could resolve many of these issues without the sovereignty issues, and in a better structured sense. I think the EU, scaled back in powers and restructured could accomplish many of the things it sets out to do, as we see with the case of non-EU members. Of course there is the free-rider problem, but that is something that could be worked out.

I also think the UK is perhaps uniquely ill-suited to be a full member state given its different legal structure and constituent states and history as a much more global, maritime country.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 27, 2019, 08:49:08 pm
Why people would take something that requires generations and blood to gain and ensure (national sovereignty) and trade it all away for the cheap thrills of slightly reduced consumer goods prices and slightly easier travel when on vacation is beyond me.  Sure it might be fine for 20-40 years, but if something goes wrong, it will go REALLY wrong and it will be incredibly hard to get back what was given up.

I have to agree with the Doc on that...(and from now on, I'll refrain from the harshness on his defense of S.K.)

Be as harsh as ever! Free speech is a beautiful thing.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Cyanea on May 27, 2019, 11:01:05 pm
The EU is the biggest voluntary

Voluntary?  :huh:

 You sign up for one thing, then they suck you in and suddenly you're trapped into something else and you can never leave because they've taken over your money, law courts and banks.

Quote
progressive and positive social construction ever undertaken by the human race. 

You're hilarious. really. I laughed.

Quote
an extremely advanced cohesion never before seen on the  planet.

You must be out of your mind. Europe continues to be the most divided and fractured political entity on earth. They can't even get the most basic things done because they can't agree on anything.

Quote
And going further, it not only has an amazing economy,

is that why unemployment rates are through the sky in most of the EU?

Quote
but
also exhibits the most enlightened human rights and environmental
policies on earth.

Yes, EU applies toxins and intensive agriculture evenly to all member states and destroys all wildlife equally across Europe.

Quote
It is, indeed, something the human race can finally be proud of.


hahaha  :cry: :laugh: :laugh:   Its always kinda funny to see someone so ignorant of reality and brainwashed. Were you in the hitler youth as well?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SanderB on May 28, 2019, 02:38:45 am
I think that you, Cyanea, are the one who has been brainwashed into believing Brexit would be beneficial to the UK. Also, there is no unemployment in Holland, in fact 900.000 vacancies available to anyone willing to come and work here as a European citizen, and many do take this opportunity. The unemployed are so by their own personal choice, and we are desperate for any able-bodied people to help us fill these vacancies.

I know it is far more comfortable to wallow in despair and discontent about the horrors the EU has inflicted upon the sovereignty of member states and how much money flows out of the country towards the Southern poorer member states but if you have any knowledge of the EU economy it is imperative to support those countries because they have sold off all their debt into dangerous derivatives and the banks are shorting them, expecting a huge crisis soon. The longer we can print money and abstain from remedying this sword of Damocles, the better for all of us. Brexit on its own could cause England to suffer great economic recession inflicting even more unrest to the Southern EU states.

In any case, I've heard that the price of flowers has already risen by 2 pounds and Brexit hasn't even happened yet.

In this, Cyanea, your facts do not stack up. Brexit is a terrible route to self-destruction and a royal shafting to any young Brit graduating out of uni for years to come. This hapless 'we'll manage, as we have always withstood many difficult times in the past' is, to my mind, the easiest coping mechanism at full play here: denial of imminent danger to the status quo. It is incredibly saddening that the most vulnerable in British society are the most feverishly believing in this false Brexit mantra, thinking that if all the Poles have left, they, as native Brits, would be given higher benefits. This lie and pipedream is the one thing that upsets me the most. Taking advantage of the gullible minds of the uninformed lower classes and scandalously portraying Brexit and the EU in a negative light through fake news like Boris has done is an affront to anything a politician should hold dearly. The fact that you happily gobble up this misinformation is worrying but perhaps not entirely unexpected knowing your preconceived notions and having read your other posts.

Farage for PM! :azn:
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on May 28, 2019, 07:18:57 am
hahaha  :cry: :laugh: :laugh:   Its always kinda funny to see someone so ignorant of reality and brainwashed. Were you in the hitler youth as well?

really?  it's funny to see someone who is so delicate that they seem to be able to dish it out, but run away complaining when someone points out their nonsense.  sad, really. 

fact is, the UK has been in the EU for 46-odd years.  for most of us, we only know about being part of the EU, and for that main reason there is no problem with it.  would the UK have been any better not being in the EU?  who knows.  thing is, we joined and the majority of Brits feel an affinity with Europe.  but the UK has always wriggled around and complained about its 'sovereignty' and 'national identity' and nonsense like that, when in reality the numerous global memberships and global treaties etc mean that no country truly has sovereignty.  for example, like the ridiculous trade war that trump has started with China shows how everyone is affected by the actions of other countries.  there is no 'sovereignty'.  the EU works, it's just now that globally, stupid small-minded bigoted people seem to have woken from their slumber thinking that now they should have a say in what goes on without checking the facts or just plain ignoring them.   

six months after the Brexit vote, I remember my mum telling me she was in the post office and overheard some old ladies talking.  one mentioned, 'it'll be okay because there is that 350 million that will go to the NHS now'.   :rolleyes:  people who will never see Brexit fukced it up for the ones who will experience it.  my sister-in-law's parents both voted to leave, they're in their seventies.  my sister-in-law was so angry at them she couldn't talk to them for a few months.  my hope is, that as the majority remain parties from yesterday's election out number the brexit parties, mean that if there is a general election that majority feeling is to remain and the candidates who canvass on that will win, therefore giving us a second people's vote. 
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: oglop on May 28, 2019, 07:24:44 am
asking my dad why he voted brexit: "damn immigrants. there's too many of them"

a few days later: "so, when are you and your korean wife moving to england?"

Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 28, 2019, 07:53:21 am
The longer we can print money and abstain from remedying this sword of Damocles, the better for all of us.
If your solution is to print money, you have no solution.

Quote
In any case, I've heard that the price of flowers has already risen by 2 pounds and Brexit hasn't even happened yet.
Imagine the mindset of being willing to forsake your national sovereignty to save a few bucks on flowers....

Quote
Brexit is a terrible route to self-destruction and a royal shafting to any young Brit graduating out of uni for years to come
Offers printing money as a solution, cites saving 2 pounds on flowers as a reason to justify it.

And you say the Brexitiers are the ones engaging in self-destruction and shafting the young  :huh:
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 28, 2019, 08:16:22 am
thing is, we joined and the majority of Brits feel an affinity with Europe.  but the UK has always wriggled around and complained about its 'sovereignty' and 'national identity' and nonsense like that
I don't think those concepts are quite the nonsense you say they are. Countries that have seen attempts to have such "nonsense" stripped from them, almost always by force, tend not to see them as "nonsense".

Quote
when in reality the numerous global memberships and global treaties etc mean that no country truly has sovereignty
That's not true. People elect leaders to enter such agreements or perhaps to withdraw from them. We have seen numerous popular elected governments shift directions radically. Also, while countries do agree to limitations via treaty, the decision to freely engage in those limitations, and to dictate the extent of them, rather than having them placed on them arbitrarily or through coercion, is an act of sovereignty in and of itself.

Quote
for example, like the ridiculous trade war that trump has started with China
Significant intellectual property theft and holding China accountable. The alternative is that China sees weakness and assumes it can do whatever it wants. You've heard of "too big to fail" well, at that point China will be "too big to question". In other words, this is a Hitler and Czechoslovakia moment. You either stand up and confront them or you try and smooth everything out and we'll pay the price down the line.

Quote
it's just now that globally, stupid small-minded bigoted people seem to have woken from their slumber thinking that now they should have a say in what goes on without checking the facts or just plain ignoring them
Really? Tens of millions of people who didn't vote before suddenly started voting, despite voter turnout rates being the same? How do you explain that? Are you really that deluded that you think millions sprung up out of nowhere to vote for populists? Do you know who was Trump's margin of victory? Hundreds of thousands of people in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, who had voted union Democrat for years and voted for Obama and shifted to Trump after the global financial crisis and the uneven recovery.

Quote
people who will never see Brexit fukced it up for the ones who will experience it.  my sister-in-law's parents both voted to leave, they're in their seventies.  my sister-in-law was so angry at them she couldn't talk to them for a few months

Let's see, the most impulsive, most short-term thinking, most hormone-driven demographic, most coddled, which has the lowest rates of business ownership, savings, leadership and managerial experience, and least amount of capital at stake, the young, thinks Brexit is a bad idea.

Well, I'm convinced.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: kyndo on May 28, 2019, 08:29:52 am
Do you know who was Trump's margin of victory?
It was Putin, right?  :wink:

I think an EU-lite could resolve many of these issues without the sovereignty issues, and in a better structured sense. I think the EU, scaled back in powers and restructured could accomplish many of the things it sets out to do, as we see with the case of non-EU members. Of course there is the free-rider problem, but that is something that could be worked out.

I also think the UK is perhaps uniquely ill-suited to be a full member state given its different legal structure and constituent states and history as a much more global, maritime country.

Oh, the EU definitely isn't perfect, and could definitely afford to ease up on the bureaucracy a bit. An EU-lite might be a huge improvement, fer sure.
It bothers me that so many people look at things in a perfect-or-nothing kind of mindset: don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!
Abortion laws, gun control, immigration policies... there's a huge subset of the population that doesn't seem to understand that there are shades of gray that are infinitely preferable to either black or white.  :sad:

Also, in my opinion, people who go on about the EU being a massive threat to national sovereignty are exaggerating. Yes, your country will have to abide by additional guidelines (and it's not like international laws and restrictions are a new thing), but relax: nobody is gonna take away your flags!

Your country --> (https://www.wikihow.com/images/thumb/a/a6/Play-Capture-the-Flag-Step-8-Version-2.jpg/aid43742-v4-728px-Play-Capture-the-Flag-Step-8-Version-2.jpg) <-- The EU

Were you in the Hitler youth as well?
  :rolleyes:
"Godwin's Law: There is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that, when a Hitler comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever made the comparison loses whatever debate is in progress."



Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 28, 2019, 09:45:34 am
It was Putin, right?  :wink:
Yup. That evil schemer and his network of oligarchs made Hillary not campaign in Wisconsin and caused her to not focus her campaign message on the working class!

Quote
“You know, I won Iowa not because the demographics dictated that I would win Iowa. I spent 87 days going to every small town and fair and fish fry and VFW hall and there were some counties where I might have lost, but maybe I lost by 20 points instead of 50 points,” Mr. Obama told reporters Monday, ahead of his foreign trip to Greece, Germany and Peru.

Putin made Obama like fish!
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on May 28, 2019, 09:49:39 am
Really? Tens of millions of people who didn't vote before suddenly started voting, despite voter turnout rates being the same? How do you explain that? Are you really that deluded that you think millions sprung up out of nowhere to vote for populists? Do you know who was Trump's margin of victory? Hundreds of thousands of people in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, who had voted union Democrat for years and voted for Obama and shifted to Trump after the global financial crisis and the uneven recovery.

oh, you bolded something like you are shouting.  nice.  you are aware of SNS, the internet and the like as a modern day phenomenon for disseminating, for the most part, opinionated nonsense and lies?  you are aware that it has grown in the last decade so any Tom, Dick or Harry can access this purely by having a phone or a computer?  people don't canvass from door to door like they used to because it is not as efficient or effective anymore.  sure, in some really rural places it is still done, but it's much easier just to tweet/facebook your crap and it'll reach millions of people instantly.  this is including the dumbasses populists who don't fact check and take things at face value or it plays to their insecurities.  these are the populists who are too busy or too stupid to check what they are reading.  they just want 'quick fixes', which for the most part don't work. 
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SanderB on May 28, 2019, 09:53:25 am
2 pounds extra for flowers not so bad, you say? Wow, the level of complete 0 business acumen! Old geezers believing everything used to be better in the  'past', shafting themselves and everyone else in the process.

''food tariff increase of up to 22%, particularly in dairy, meat, vegetables and fruit,”'
Not to mention that 70% of imports comes from the EU. What about medicines? Have you even begun to consider the underlying factors of a mere '2 pounds' price hike on 1 simple imported perishable item?

And to say printing money is no solution, where did you go to school? Trump University? What do you think the Fed. is for? 0% interest not enough of a signal to you? Oh, I see, you believe that nonsense that the economic growth is driven by 'real' hardworking small business owners, the backbone of our economy.

Case in point: British lorries regurgitating Brexit talking points learnt at Truckstop University.
At 1:56 he says what Brexit is really about: ...Because...ahem.. ..England's got too many people ...simultaneously admitting to the contrary:... there will be staff shortages...  :laugh:
Brexit's been about Poles, Romanians and what have you, all along.
https://youtu.be/_8sh_8-C6tE
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: tylerthegloob on May 28, 2019, 09:57:06 am
Were you in the Hitler youth as well?
  :rolleyes:
"Godwin's Law: There is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that, when a Hitler comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever made the comparison loses whatever debate is in progress."

super irrelevant, but i saw this guy give a talk about intellectual property law and he introduced himself as the godwin's law guy.

edit: a word
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on May 28, 2019, 10:11:38 am
Were you in the Hitler youth as well?
  :rolleyes:
"Godwin's Law: There is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that, when a Hitler comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever made the comparison loses whatever debate is in progress."

super irrelevant,

it's relevant considering cyanide's particular kind of 'posts'. 
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: eggieguffer on May 28, 2019, 10:15:31 am
asking my dad why he voted brexit: "damn immigrants. there's too many of them"

a few days later: "so, when are you and your korean wife moving to england?"



Your Dad was right. UK citizens who are legitimately married should be allowed to bring their wives back to the UK and there are too many immigrants. 300,000 a year coming in when we have a shortage of 4 million houses and massive strain on schools and the NHS. No need to swear at them though.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 28, 2019, 11:07:06 am
oh, you bolded something like you are shouting.  nice.  you are aware of SNS, the internet and the like as a modern day phenomenon for disseminating, for the most part, opinionated nonsense and lies?  you are aware that it has grown in the last decade so any Tom, Dick or Harry can access this purely by having a phone or a computer?  people don't canvass from door to door like they used to because it is not as efficient or effective anymore.  sure, in some really rural places it is still done, but it's much easier just to tweet/facebook your crap and it'll reach millions of people instantly.  this is including the dumbasses populists who don't fact check and take things at face value or it plays to their insecurities.  these are the populists who are too busy or too stupid to check what they are reading.  they just want 'quick fixes', which for the most part don't work.
The amount of spending by both campaigns should have largely offset each other. There is some research that suggests Trump's ads were more effective, but I'm curious as to correlation vs. causation.
https://www.vox.com/2017/11/1/16593066/trump-clinton-facebook-advertising-money-election-president-russia

Also, if you believe only one voting doesn't fact check and takes things at face value, then you are not part of the rational conversation. Both sides do that as leading research on human behavior, cognition, and moral values indicates.

Also, it's generally not a good idea to call other people stupid and uninformed when you write barely coherent posts and confess to being unable to read more than one book a year and maintaining your focus and absorbing the information within.

nothing to be proud of but I only read possibly, at the maximum, one book a year, if that.  I enjoy reading books when I get into them, but I'm just not sure why I don't do it more often,  I generally find exercising more important.  Also I find my mind drifts when I'm reading and I carry on reading but after a couple of pages I realise that I haven't actually taken in those couple of pages and have to go back.  No idea why it is like that, as the rest of my family read tonnes of books.  Like I said, nothing to proud of, just seems to be how it is.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 28, 2019, 11:15:44 am
2 pounds extra for flowers not so bad, you say? Wow, the level of complete 0 business acumen! Old geezers believing everything used to be better in the  'past', shafting themselves and everyone else in the process.

''food tariff increase of up to 22%, particularly in dairy, meat, vegetables and fruit,”'
Not to mention that 70% of imports comes from the EU. What about medicines? Have you even begun to consider the underlying factors of a mere '2 pounds' price hike on 1 simple imported perishable item?
Not everything is going to rise by 2 pounds and there are other suppliers...

You do realize that other countries aren't just going to sit on their ass and do nothing, right? They're going to see if they can capitalize on the British market and try and offer as competitive a terms as possible. And get this, because they aren't negotiating with a cumbersome EU and have to deal with 28 different agendas, they might be able to strike a deal much more quickly and more specifically tailored to the British market.

Quote
And to say printing money is no solution, where did you go to school? Trump University?
Where did you go to school? Robert Mugabe University? Weimar Republic Polytechnical?

The problem with printing money as a direct stimulus to consumers isn't that it doesn't work. it's that it works only too well.

Quote
At 1:56 he says what Brexit is really about: ...Because...ahem.. ..England's got too many people ...simultaneously admitting to the contrary:... there will be staff shortages...  :laugh:
Brexit's been about Poles, Romanians and what have you, all along.
Yes, some people supporting Brexit have stupid reasons for doing so. And some people supporting Remain have stupid reasons for doing so.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on May 28, 2019, 11:23:43 am
oh, you bolded something like you are shouting.  nice.  you are aware of SNS, the internet and the like as a modern day phenomenon for disseminating, for the most part, opinionated nonsense and lies?  you are aware that it has grown in the last decade so any Tom, Dick or Harry can access this purely by having a phone or a computer?  people don't canvass from door to door like they used to because it is not as efficient or effective anymore.  sure, in some really rural places it is still done, but it's much easier just to tweet/facebook your crap and it'll reach millions of people instantly.  this is including the dumbasses populists who don't fact check and take things at face value or it plays to their insecurities.  these are the populists who are too busy or too stupid to check what they are reading.  they just want 'quick fixes', which for the most part don't work.
The amount of spending by both campaigns should have largely offset each other. There is some research that suggests Trump's ads were more effective, but I'm curious as to correlation vs. causation.
https://www.vox.com/2017/11/1/16593066/trump-clinton-facebook-advertising-money-election-president-russia

Also, if you believe only one voting doesn't fact check and takes things at face value, then you are not part of the rational conversation. Both sides do that as leading research on human behavior, cognition, and moral values indicates.

Also, it's generally not a good idea to call other people stupid and uninformed when you write barely coherent posts and confess to being unable to read more than one book a year and maintaining your focus and absorbing the information within.

nothing to be proud of but I only read possibly, at the maximum, one book a year, if that.  I enjoy reading books when I get into them, but I'm just not sure why I don't do it more often,  I generally find exercising more important.  Also I find my mind drifts when I'm reading and I carry on reading but after a couple of pages I realise that I haven't actually taken in those couple of pages and have to go back.  No idea why it is like that, as the rest of my family read tonnes of books.  Like I said, nothing to proud of, just seems to be how it is.

holy crap.  what an amazing insight.  so basically you're saying someone's intelligence is intrinsically linked to reading loads of books?  your inferiority complex and need to be better than others on a daily basis is really kind of weird.  it's a shame, really. 
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 28, 2019, 11:31:12 am
holy crap.  what an amazing insight.  so basically you're saying someone's intelligence is intrinsically linked to reading loads of books?  your inferiority complex and need to be better than others on a daily basis is really kind of weird.  it's a shame, really. 
Maybe if you read more books, you might have better reading comprehension because I "basically said" nothing of the sort, though if you only have basic thinking and comprehension skills, I can see how you might make that mistake.

I said it is GENERALLY not a good idea to call other people stupid AND uninformed when you write barely coherant posts AND confess to being unable to read more than one book a year AND maintaining your focus and absorbing information within.

You're the one who called other people stupid and uninformed., thereby showing your inferiority complex and need to be better than others. I'm the one who said you probably shouldn't do that.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on May 28, 2019, 11:41:12 am
holy crap.  what an amazing insight.  so basically you're saying someone's intelligence is intrinsically linked to reading loads of books?  your inferiority complex and need to be better than others on a daily basis is really kind of weird.  it's a shame, really. 
Maybe if you read more books, you might have better reading comprehension because I basically said nothing of the sort, though if you only have basic thinking and comprehension skills, I can see how you might make that mistake.

I said it is GENERALLY not a good idea to call other people stupid AND uninformed when you write barely coherant posts AND confess to being unable to read more than one book a year AND maintaining your focus and absorbing information within.

You're the one who called other people stupid and uninformed., thereby showing your inferiority complex and need to be better than others. I'm the one who said you probably shouldn't do that.

you may have noticed I wrote 'on a daily basis'.  please read again.

also didn't you write something along of lines of people who can't sit tests are pathetic?

But if you can't handle the stress of a test, I'm sorry, but I don't know what to say. That's really pathetic.

please, continue to think you're better than, I'm okay with that.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SanderB on May 28, 2019, 12:06:58 pm
(https://i.ibb.co/xfjxQYb/90145569-david-paxton.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
upload a jpg (https://nl.imgbb.com/)
[
 there are too many immigrants. 300,000 a year coming in when we have a shortage of 4 million houses and massive strain on schools and the NHS. No need to swear at them though.

Indeed, just stab them. That'll teach them not to get up early and work a day's hard graft!
Us Brits be sitting on our bums all day cuz of 'em Poles. I'd like to get a job, I really do, but there aren't any because they all want those foreigners with their fancy diplomas. Why won't the government give me more money for one of them dips, all those immigrants have them, dun they. And us Brits get Nothing. Who needs those Polish nurses and immigrant brown doctors anyways, with Boris's promised 350 mill we'll be fine, we always have.

(https://i.ibb.co/v392X5k/Annotation-2019-05-28-061643.png) (https://ibb.co/GWmgHwR)
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: eggieguffer on May 28, 2019, 12:53:35 pm
Quote
Indeed, just stab them. That'll teach them not to get up early and work a day's hard graft!
Us Brits be sitting on our bums all day cuz of 'em Poles. I'd like to get a job, I really do, but there aren't any because they all want those foreigners with their fancy diplomas. Why won't the government give me more money for one of them dips, all those immigrants have them, dun they. And us Brits get Nothing. Who needs those Polish nurses and immigrant brown doctors anyways, with Boris's promised 350 mill we'll be fine, we always have.


How about just for once ditching the hilarious satire and actually confronting the issue of how the UK is going to cope with its population increasing by the equivalent of a medium sized city every year?  You don't think that might cause a few problems?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 28, 2019, 01:02:43 pm
holy crap.  what an amazing insight.  so basically you're saying someone's intelligence is intrinsically linked to reading loads of books?  your inferiority complex and need to be better than others on a daily basis is really kind of weird.  it's a shame, really. 
Maybe if you read more books, you might have better reading comprehension because I basically said nothing of the sort, though if you only have basic thinking and comprehension skills, I can see how you might make that mistake.

I said it is GENERALLY not a good idea to call other people stupid AND uninformed when you write barely coherant posts AND confess to being unable to read more than one book a year AND maintaining your focus and absorbing information within.

You're the one who called other people stupid and uninformed., thereby showing your inferiority complex and need to be better than others. I'm the one who said you probably shouldn't do that.

you may have noticed I wrote 'on a daily basis'.  please read again.
Yeah, that doesn't really address what I wrote. You were saying "on a daily basis" regarding me and having an inferiority complex and need to be better.

All I did was point out the hypocrisy of you saying that while calling other people stupid and uninformed, which you did.

Quote

something along of lines of people who can't sit tests are pathetic?

continue to think you're better than, I'm okay with that.
Wet brain acting up again?

I know, I know, probably a smartphone issue. Still...
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: alexisalex on May 28, 2019, 01:53:12 pm
So this thread is still basically one long snobbish attack on working class people.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SPQR on May 28, 2019, 02:18:09 pm
How about just for once ditching the hilarious satire and actually confronting the issue of how the UK is going to cope with its population increasing by the equivalent of a medium sized city every year?

I think if you did even the most basic research into what you are saying, then you would
know it is totally false. The immigrant demographic is younger than the average Brit
and actually consumes less public funding and contributes more, than average, to
government coffers.

Here is a very simple video for you:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYonSZ8s3_o&t=1s
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SanderB on May 28, 2019, 02:27:12 pm
You know that I like you a lot Eggs? <3
So I shall answer your points of concern without satire, just this once.

Afaik we have been royally taken up the bumhole by Cameron and our parents and grandparents with no real feasible solution in sight. More houses could be built and as you can see from the UKgov website, the people that do live off job seeker's allowance are 'native' Brits. The Polish immigrants are the very people that keep the economy running.

I'm copy pasting that video! Stephen presents my arguments much more eloquently!
https://youtu.be/UYonSZ8s3_o

Stephen didn't mention my other concern and that is the spread of Saudi Salafism and their hate speech against us kafirs in their course books found in moderate mosques all over Europe. The only way I see we can fight their money is by allowing many more real moderate muslims in (for instance from Syria) and have a more culturally diverse melting pot. If our cities are becoming predominantly muslim then let them be filled with moderate, peace loving muslims and not the we have to kill every kafir- kind.

And of course all I want is just another 50 years of stability, then China, Putin or the Saudis can take over the EU for all I care. Burn that oil and pollute that planet to a crisp! Elon Musk will find us a new planet for sure! :azn:
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: eggieguffer on May 28, 2019, 03:19:36 pm
Quote
I think if you did even the most basic research into what you are saying, then you would
know it is totally false

I only quoted two facts as far as I can remember . That immigration to the UK was nearly 300,000 people last year

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics

And that the UK is short of 4 million houses.

https://www.housing.org.uk/press/press-releases/england-short-of-four-million-homes/

And a general observation that the NHS and schools are under strain

http://www.nationalhealthexecutive.com/Health-Care-News/ae-waiting-time-performance-hits-all-time-low-as-nhs-buckles-under-the-strain
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/07/migration-pressure-on-schools-revealed/

Does that simple video repudiate any of this?


Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 28, 2019, 03:21:39 pm
I'd counter with Hannan's equally optimistic Leave speech. Why tie yourself to plodding Europe when Britain can go out and be lean and nimble on her own, as has been her historical character?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZRuIhtC9Mo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZRuIhtC9Mo)
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SanderB on May 28, 2019, 03:41:43 pm
Eggs be right, but closing the borders would cause a massive brain drain on the economy, leaving us with all the people who don't have the money nor the skills to find jobs elsewhere. Brexit has already cost us several 1000s of highly skilled professionals moving out with their head offices to the mainland and many other EU citizens are extremely worried about their future in the UK and planning to move back to the mainland.

Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: eggieguffer on May 28, 2019, 03:54:48 pm
Eggs be right, but closing the borders would cause a massive brain drain on the economy, leaving us with all the people who don't have the money nor the skills to find jobs elsewhere. Brexit has already cost us several 1000s of highly skilled professionals moving out with their head offices to the mainland and many other EU citizens are extremely worried about their future in the UK and planning to move back to the mainland.



Usually the only time you hear the expression 'closing the borders' is when leftists start attacking people who don't agree with them on this issue.  I've never heard anybody seriously advocating this.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: eggieguffer on May 28, 2019, 04:03:35 pm

[/quote]
So this thread is still basically one long snobbish attack on working class people.

Yes it's the Victorian idea of the illiterate masses not being intelligent enough to have a proper opinion on politics. Also coming out in phrases like these

Quote
I think if you did even the most basic research into what you are saying,
Quote
Here's a very simple video for you
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SanderB on May 28, 2019, 04:35:41 pm
Isn't Brexit all about regaining control over our borders? Closing the borders and stopping migration because as Professor Lorryd River put it: ...there are too many 'people'.. :P
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: eggieguffer on May 28, 2019, 04:38:15 pm
Isn't Brexit all about regaining control over our borders? Closing the borders and stopping migration because as Professor Lorryd River put it: ...there are too many 'people'.. :P

Regaining control yes, closing the borders no.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: kyndo on May 28, 2019, 04:54:57 pm
Isn't Brexit all about regaining control over our borders? Closing the borders and stopping migration because as Professor Lorryd River put it: ...there are too many 'people'.. :P

Regaining control yes, closing the borders no.
       Putting tighter restrictions on immigration might be a better way of putting it.



Britain is, of course, well within its rights to pull out of the EU and impose tighter controls on its borders, but I feel that while it does stand to gain in security , as things stand, there will also be a significant net loss in money, talent, and goodwill.

    I feel that the best solution would be for the pro Brexit teams to sit down and do a bit more planning on how to make things the least harmful/most beneficial to everybody involved. This would take a heck of a lot more talking with various EU parties than what seems to be presently occurring.  :undecided:

     
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SanderB on May 28, 2019, 05:11:30 pm
Well, luckily someone's enjoying himself... ;D


(https://www.irishexaminer.com/remote/image.assets.pressassociation.io/v2/image/production/31a5aeb7e59d0971966f864b5206efc6Y29udGVudHNlYXJjaCwxNTU0NTQ5MTEz/2.42041882.jpg?crop=0,310,3392,2218&ext=.jpg&width=648&s=ie-915692)
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Cyanea on May 29, 2019, 12:00:40 am
Also, there is no unemployment in Holland

Of course the industrious northern nations are fine. And Italy? Spain? They live in a twilight zone.

Not mention Greece that was attacked then assett-stripped by Brussels. All those Greek islands now in the hands of German bankers while greeks live in poverty!

UK has one of the lowest unemployment rates for any member state btw. Even just looking at imports and exports, the EU needs Britain more than Britain needs the EU.


Quote
I know it is far more comfortable to wallow in despair and discontent about the horrors the EU has inflicted upon the sovereignty of member states and how much money flows out of the country towards the Southern poorer member states

This is one of the design flaws of the EU: it is a vehicle by which countries get to offload their problems onto others.

If you're Poland you export your unemployment to Britain; if you're Spain you export your debt problems; if you're germany you get to export all your goods without having to buy anybody elses. Its a system of de-responsibilization.


Quote
Brexit on its own could cause England to suffer great economic recession inflicting even more unrest to the Southern EU states.


Britain is a dominant economy within the EU, its leaving is like 20 member states going (if you add up all the tiny or weak states).

You're fear-mongering, but of course Britain could  do much better after brexit. Don't lets forget EU regulations have hurt British business, not helped.

Brexit has already cost us several 1000s of highly skilled professionals moving out with their head offices to the mainland

It depends what media you read. You apparently read the anti-brexit media run by the globalists.

Obviously they aren't telling you the reality:

Quote
2017 was a record year for foreign investment into the UK’s high-growth companies. A whopping £6b was invested over the course of the year, in 396 deals involving at least one foreign investor. This was £3.8b more than 2016.

What is perhaps even more striking is that even if we take into account the growth across all investment between 2016 and 2017, the proportion of foreign capital invested grew at a significantly faster rate.
https://about.beauhurst.com/blog/investors-from-abroad-foreign-money-for-uk-startups/ (https://about.beauhurst.com/blog/investors-from-abroad-foreign-money-for-uk-startups/)

Even the most simple economist can tell you that devaluing the pound means not only will tourism boom but foreign investment as well.


Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Cyanea on May 29, 2019, 12:15:50 am
Were you in the Hitler youth as well?
  :rolleyes:
"Godwin's Law: There is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that, when a Hitler comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever made the comparison loses whatever debate is in progress."

The allusion is not entirely misplaced.

SPQR (aka FDNY /Donna Karan New York/ Cohiba) 's misty-eyed idealism at the rise of a European Empire and quick succumbing to propaganda fantasy mirrors the optimism at the start of the third reich. EU is just another restoration of the German reich. EU is dominated by Germany, if/ when Britain leaves you will see it become even more blatantly so. 
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 29, 2019, 12:49:40 am

Britain is, of course, well within its rights to pull out of the EU and impose tighter controls on its borders, but I feel that while it does stand to gain in security , as things stand, there will also be a significant net loss in money, talent, and goodwill.

    I feel that the best solution would be for the pro Brexit teams to sit down and do a bit more planning on how to make things the least harmful/most beneficial to everybody involved. This would take a heck of a lot more talking with various EU parties than what seems to be presently occurring.  :undecided:
If the EU is such a benevolent organization that respects human rights, democracy, and free will, why does it get so agitated and controlling when member states want to leave or "vote the wrong way" when it comes to adopting EU rules?

Doesn't that strongly suggest that the EU doesn't exist to enhance the quality of life of its citizenry, but instead to further the careers of those who are invested in it and part of its power structure? Shouldn't the normal reaction of a state withdrawing or deciding not to enter be one of "We respect your choice and lets see how we can have the most friendliest and mutually beneficial relations", not lets see what punitive measures we can enact since you refuse to be part of our great organization?

kyndo, if you'll permit this silly indulgence, you're a Trekkie aren't you if I recall? Remember the TNG episode 'First Contact' when Picard and crew meet a civilization on the cusp of warp technology?

PICARD: ...But how we proceed is entirely up to you.
DURKEN: And if my wishes should conflict with yours?
PICARD: There'll be no conflict.
DURKEN: And if I should tell you to leave and never return to my world?
PICARD: We will leave and never return.

Is the EU adopting such language to potential states which refuse to enter or those who are hesitant or those who may wish to leave? No. They pressure states to join them. If their citizens hold votes to join and they reject membership, the EU tells them to vote again and this time get it right. And if a state says we no longer wish to be part, they seek to be as punitive as possible to prevent other states from leaving. A truly benevolent institution, run by truly benevolent people, would not care at all if a country was part or not part of its organization when trying to maintain friendly relations.

They do not care about freedom and choice. They only care about their own power. Their statements towards freedom and choice are there only to get people to support them while they build their power. Now granted AND embraced- that's EVERY politician, including those on the Leave side. But it does shatter the myth that the EU is some sort of benevolent institution run by benevolent individuals. I think to surrender sovereignty to such people who are so nakedly pursuing power is a catastrophic decision because that sovereignty, once surrendered, cannot easily be regained without much suffering.

Or perhaps this-

"I beg you to accept that there is no people on Earth who would not prefer their own bad government to the good government of an alien power...Like other countries, ours will have its problems. But they will be OUR problems."
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on May 29, 2019, 08:00:02 am
Quote
people who will never see Brexit fukced it up for the ones who will experience it.  my sister-in-law's parents both voted to leave, they're in their seventies.  my sister-in-law was so angry at them she couldn't talk to them for a few months

Let's see, the most impulsive, most short-term thinking, most hormone-driven demographic, most coddled, which has the lowest rates of business ownership, savings, leadership and managerial experience, and least amount of capital at stake, the young, thinks Brexit is a bad idea.

Well, I'm convinced.

what are you blathering on about here?  this new selfish 'generation' you speak of, is you all over.  this is the self-absorbed, baseball game watching cheapskates sat around a phone in a restaurant watching a game. 

as you directly quoted this bit about my SiL, I'll respond.  with regards to my SiL, she's in her mid-forties living in Berlin with my brother and two nephews, my brother being part of the brain drain from the UK, working as a nuclear safety technician there.  brexit is causing him untold stress, as at the moment Germany is trying to process residency visas for current UK nationals there in preparation for brexit.  he shouldn't really worry, as there really aren't that many Germans with his skill set, but he does, as he has investments, property and his home is there.  they don't want to return to the UK as they are settled there, their kids are happy in school, but as brexit is a big fat unknown now, with regards to pension, to name one big part, who knows what is in store.  this small-minded, narrowly-defined 'generation' that only you know of through your lack of life experience, don't know about these others who have more to lose or compromise from brexit, but as you just want to lump them all together shows your uninformed black/white view of the world.  please educate yourself more. 

Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 29, 2019, 09:18:11 am
what are you blathering on about here?  this new selfish 'generation' you speak of, is you all over.  this is the self-absorbed, baseball game watching cheapskates sat around a phone in a restaurant watching a game.
How is it self-absorbed for people eating together to watch a baseball game on a phone together? You do realize smartphone cases have attachments that can be propped up and angled so everyone can glance at the screen and that when you watch BASEBALL you watch it as a background thing, right? That's how baseball is enjoyed in America- it's always on, but it's usually in the background. On the TV at the barber shop. On the tv at the bar. On the radio while you're gardening or working on a car.

Also, did you go drinking again? Wet brain acting up? You're barely coherant these days.

The older generation knows how to spot a messed up system and when someone doesn't have their interests at heart. They know how to spot people whose actions don't match their words. See above- If the EU is such a benevolent institution and its leaders are such great, tolerant, freedom-loving people, why do they get so upset at countries that don't want to be part of it?

That shouldn't bother them. It does. That means they're not to be trusted.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on May 29, 2019, 09:33:24 am
Also, did you go drinking again? Wet brain acting up? You're barely coherant these days.

cool bro!  how old are you again?  the insults of a child-like mentality.   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: kyndo on May 29, 2019, 12:10:57 pm
Kyndo, if you'll permit this silly indulgence, you're a Trekkie aren't you if I recall? Remember the TNG episode 'First Contact' when Picard and crew meet a civilization on the cusp of warp technology?

PICARD: ...But how we proceed is entirely up to you.
DURKEN: And if my wishes should conflict with yours?
PICARD: There'll be no conflict.
DURKEN: And if I should tell you to leave and never return to my world?
PICARD: We will leave and never return.
      I'm ashamed to say that while I really love Sci-fi, I've never been hugely into Star-Trek (although I've watched a good number of episodes from each series, and most of the flicks).
      I have a hard time swallowing the utopian United Earth thing, and an even harder time accepting that there are hundreds of civilizations packed so closely together and that they all happen to be within a stone throw of each other, technologically speaking.


If the EU is such a benevolent organization that respects human rights, democracy, and free will, why does it get so agitated and controlling when member states want to leave or "vote the wrong way" when it comes to adopting EU rules?

Doesn't that strongly suggest that the EU doesn't exist to enhance the quality of life of its citizenry, but instead to further the careers of those who are invested in it and part of its power structure? Shouldn't the normal reaction of a state withdrawing or deciding not to enter be one of "We respect your choice and lets see how we can have the most friendliest and mutually beneficial relations", not lets see what punitive measures we can enact since you refuse to be part of our great organization?
Does it really have to be one or the other?
   In my opinion, the EU does really attempt to make the lives and economies of it's member states better but is, of course, held back by all the bureaucratic BS it's mired down in. And having more member states makes the union a more effective trade union, which gives it a strong incentive to pull in as many states as it can.
    The real test of the EU's benevolence is whether it will gracefully allow member states to pull out. Convince, cajole, and manipulate all they like, but at the end of the day, if they  let Britain out without disproportionate punitive measures, then it'll have proven itself as mostly benevolent.
   And I say disproportionate, because punitive measures aren't unreasonable. The UK has invested a lot of time, money, and political capital becoming part of the EU, but the EU has done the same in accepting Britain. Easy entry and exit to the union somewhat negates its purpose in creating singular economy that can trade with other powerful economies without being utterly devoured.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: NorthStar on May 29, 2019, 01:57:05 pm
Quote
The older generation knows how to spot a messed up system and when someone doesn't have their interests at heart. They know how to spot people whose actions don't match their words. See above- If the EU is such a benevolent institution and its leaders are such great, tolerant, freedom-loving people, why do they get so upset at countries that don't want to be part of it?

That shouldn't bother them. It does. That means they're not to be trusted.

I can empathize with that. 

National sovereignty should be the priority...but as an American, this is not my monkey.  Thus, not my circus. 

However, as I spent some time traveling last year, I meet folks from England that talked about both sides.  In one hand, I heard from the young bucks, who simply made fun of "your average Brexit supporter" but never really added anything I would consider useful.  All I heard was the typical name calling (seemed quite programmed to me) but no real objective reasons to remain with the EU. 

In the other hand, I spoke with folks who were very much in support of Brexit, as the EU (to them) is counter to what they believe is the English way of life.  They were very proud of their country, culture and history.  They know the shortcomings but ddin't dwell on them.  They just made their as to why they felt being in the EU was wrong for their country (immigration was one, economic links another, along with loosing their culture and not being able to do anything about it.).  I don't see anything wrong with that and they presented their cases quite cordially ...

Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SanderB on May 29, 2019, 04:34:48 pm
Also, did you go drinking again? Wet brain acting up? You're barely coherant these days.

I mean, isn't THAT mistake you made quite telling? ;D Oh my days, good Sir, please stop. You'll have me smiling mysteriously for weeks. :azn:
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SanderB on May 29, 2019, 04:58:53 pm
They just made their as to why they felt being in the EU was wrong for their country (immigration was one, economic links another, along with loosing their culture and not being able to do anything about it.

They are misinformed and in denial of the real economic impact, meaning lower income families and pensioners will foot the bill for what's arguably the worst economic decision a country could make with Italy, Spain and Greece teetering on the brink.

What on Earth is Britishness worth to you if you haven't got the money to heat your home?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on May 29, 2019, 05:11:18 pm
Also, did you go drinking again? Wet brain acting up? You're barely coherant these days.

I mean, isn't THAT mistake you made quite telling? ;D Oh my days, good Sir, please stop. You'll have me smiling mysteriously for weeks. :azn:

Well played sir.  :laugh:  If you're going to sit on your high horse, you'd better not make any mis-steaks.  Maybe he's had too much 'Cham E-Seul'.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: eggieguffer on May 29, 2019, 06:41:35 pm
Quote
They were very proud of their country, culture and history.

They should probably keep that to themselves. This is England in 2019 we're talking about, where flying the flag of St George is routinely banned.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6534923/pc-killjoys-including-tesco-and-bradford-council-have-banned-offensive-st-george-flags/

and just voicing the opinion that Britain might sometimes have been a force for good in the past is likely to get you ostracised.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/nigel-biggar-oxford-professor-ostracised-defending-empire/   
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SanderB on May 29, 2019, 09:25:46 pm
Hold on now, dearest Eggs, isn't that only because of the whole Scottish Independence thingy and the Scots being fuming rightfully so over the fact that they are getting yet another thing they vehemently are opposed to stuffed down their throats by the English: Brexit.

This has got nothing to do with not being able to be English but all with discriminating against the Scottish Parliament and the will of their people being denied by the English.

And if you are claiming that the British Empire is called the Evil Empire for no good reason, then you and I, Sir, are henceforth to be at odds with each other, and I shall regret our acquaintance immediately.  :sad:
I do say so very adamantly, Sir!
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Cyanea on May 29, 2019, 09:58:37 pm
They are misinformed and in denial of the real economic impact, meaning lower income families and pensioners will foot the bill for what's arguably the worst economic decision a country could make with Italy, Spain and Greece teetering on the brink.

What on Earth is Britishness worth to you if you haven't got the money to heat your home?

You're the one in denial.

Investment has increased since the brexit referendum.


Quote
2017 was a record year for foreign investment into the UK’s high-growth companies. A whopping £6b was invested over the course of the year, in 396 deals involving at least one foreign investor. This was £3.8b more than 2016.

What is perhaps even more striking is that even if we take into account the growth across all investment between 2016 and 2017, the proportion of foreign capital invested grew at a significantly faster rate.
https://about.beauhurst.com/blog/investors-from-abroad-foreign-money-for-uk-startups/ (https://about.beauhurst.com/blog/investors-from-abroad-foreign-money-for-uk-startups/)
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: eggieguffer on May 29, 2019, 10:00:41 pm
Quote
Hold on now, dearest Eggs, isn't that only because of the whole Scottish Independence thingy and the Scots being fuming rightfully so over the fact that they are getting yet another thing they vehemently are opposed to stuffed down their throats by the English: Brexit.

This has got nothing to do with not being able to be English but all with discriminating against the Scottish Parliament and the will of their people being denied by the English.

No, the banning of the St George's flag is because some groups the establishment don't approve of have have adopted it  as a sign of nationalism. That doesn't mean everyday people shouldn't be allowed to hang it in the pub when there's a world cup match.

Quote
And if you are claiming that the British Empire is called the Evil Empire for no good reason, then you and I, Sir, are henceforth to be at odds with each other, and I shall regret our acquaintance immediately.  :sad:

Who's calling it 'the evil empire', you or some Guardian columnist you read? If you do a Google search the first thing you come across is star wars and Ronald Reagan talking about the USSR. There are no references to the British Empire. But sure, believe what you want if it makes you happier.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SanderB on May 30, 2019, 02:12:50 am
Scots do, didn't you know that?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SanderB on May 30, 2019, 02:14:39 am
Boris Johnson has been ordered to appear in court over claims he lied by saying the UK gave the EU £350m a week..."It is concerned with one infamous statement: 'We send the EU £350m a week.'

"The UK has never sent, given or provided £350m a week to Europe - that statement is simply not ambiguous."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48445430
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 30, 2019, 04:04:39 am
I mean, isn't THAT mistake you made quite telling? ;D Oh my days, good Sir, please stop. You'll have me smiling mysteriously for weeks. :azn:

Well played sir.  :laugh:  If you're going to sit on your high horse, you'd better not make any mis-steaks.  Maybe he's had too much 'Cham E-Seul'.
[/quote]
A spelling error isn't the same as Ronnie's missed words and utter lack of grammar. Plenty of perfectly cogent people make spelling errors. On the other hand if you're habitually omitting words and your sentences lack structure in places, that's more of a sign.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 30, 2019, 04:08:46 am
    The real test of the EU's benevolence is whether it will gracefully allow member states to pull out. Convince, cajole, and manipulate all they like, but at the end of the day, if they  let Britain out without disproportionate punitive measures, then it'll have proven itself as mostly benevolent.
We've already seen the attitudes of EU leaders towards states that drag their heels on joining or express the desire to leave. It's not one of reluctance, but instead a punitive, vindictive, contemptuous one. Not surprising, look at how EU supporters often speak about those who don't want to join or want to leave.

They are misinformed and in denial of the real economic impact, meaning lower income families and pensioners will foot the bill for what's arguably the worst economic decision a country could make with Italy, Spain and Greece teetering on the brink.

What on Earth is Britishness worth to you if you haven't got the money to heat your home?
At least you have your independence. Better to be cold and on your feet than warm and on your knees.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SanderB on May 30, 2019, 04:48:28 am
At least you have your independence. Better to be cold and on your feet than warm and on your knees.
Please don't make light of the 1,7 million pensioners living in fuel poverty, some dying of the cold because they believed Boris's 350 million pounds would save them.

Sometimes your lack of world knowledge bonded with your autistic lack of empathy is beyond rude, it's properly inhumane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zkghXnfpFw
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: eggieguffer on May 30, 2019, 06:36:40 am
Scots do, didn't you know that?

That's why they voted to remain part of it.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on May 30, 2019, 07:25:14 am
I mean, isn't THAT mistake you made quite telling? ;D Oh my days, good Sir, please stop. You'll have me smiling mysteriously for weeks. :azn:

Well played sir.  :laugh:  If you're going to sit on your high horse, you'd better not make any mis-steaks.  Maybe he's had too much 'Cham E-Seul'.
A spelling error isn't the same as Ronnie's missed words and utter lack of grammar. Plenty of perfectly cogent people make spelling errors. On the other hand if you're habitually omitting words and your sentences lack structure in places, that's more of a sign.
[/quote]

_______________  drawing a line under this one....

don't go all trumpy on us demartian.  you made a mistake trying to call me out for a mistake.  a spelling error is the same as a grammar error.  own it and don't project your OCD posting on us at 4am.  come on.  you didn't quote me properly either at 4am, but it's okay, I'll let you off, as it's not important.   :-*

As a European, I feel that the EU is special.  You don't find that many countries that close together anywhere else in the world.  The freedom to travel and to work in another EU country (as I've done three times) is something to be lauded.  Out of the 28 member countries, I've been to 17.  The majority I've not been to, are in the east, but pretty much all in the west and north, I've been to.  Would I still have gone to those countries were it not for the EU?  Who knows.  It just makes travelling and working so much easier.   If I travel from England to Germany, I can disembark on my gate, get my suitcase and then go.  It's so hassle free.  This is just one of the things, I think that people take for granted with EU membership. 

Also, the grants available to EU countries is evident as you travel around. Go to Malta for example and they have a brand spanking new road through the island partly subsidised by the EU.  Before, it was a just a pot-holed track running through the country.  These infrastructure grants are a huge benefit to member nations.  Also voluntary/charity organisations get EU grants that would otherwise not be available.  My mum is member of one such voluntary group and she is dreading Brexit because their EU funding will be pulled.  There is just too much history and things are just too embedded for something like Brexit to happen.  Feel free to pick apart this, I really don't mind. 
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Savant on May 30, 2019, 08:49:38 am
What is English "culture" anyway? It seems to come under the umbrella of Britishness.

Scots have a culture. Same with the Welsh and Irish.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on May 30, 2019, 09:06:57 am
What is English "culture" anyway? It seems to come under the umbrella of Britishness.

Scots have a culture. Same with the Welsh and Irish.

I don't think it's even that Savant.  It's just more of a stereotype now and something that is used by politicians and the media to play on someone's insecurities, hence Eggie's Sun article.  If you want to make a point about something avoid the Sun and the Daily Mail.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 30, 2019, 09:23:43 am
It's so hassle free.  This is just one of the things, I think that people take for granted with EU membership. 
Seems you've taken for granted the right to hold a vote and not have that vote subject to punitive measures by government body that you happen to be part of and being subject to harshly punitive measures for leaving it. Seems like people take for granted the right to act in their interests and not the interests of Martin Schulz or Guy Verhofstadt.

I'd gladly wait in line to go through customs instead of seeing my country subjected to such treatment. I am not easily swayed by trinkets and cheap thrills.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: eggieguffer on May 30, 2019, 09:36:51 am
What is English "culture" anyway? It seems to come under the umbrella of Britishness.

Scots have a culture. Same with the Welsh and Irish.

I don't think it's even that Savant.  It's just more of a stereotype now and something that is used by politicians and the media to play on someone's insecurities, hence Eggie's Sun article.  If you want to make a point about something avoid the Sun and the Daily Mail.

Did you actually read that article? It was a pretty well balanced account giving both sides of the story and pointing out some organizations withdrew the ban.

Talking of stereotypes.


"
Agreed.  If I see someone wearing a MAGA hat, I'll automatically assume know they're an idiot  It's the same if I go to Greece and see a middle-aged guy, with a load of tattoos wearing a Union Jack t-shirt.  Not saying they're all cutns, just that first impression is a strong one when someone decides to wear something with a little bit of a message about who they are.  "

I'm guessing you  assume a guy flying the flag of St George during the World Cup is also a cutn so you wouldn't be too bothered about the ban.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on May 30, 2019, 10:21:31 am
It's so hassle free.  This is just one of the things, I think that people take for granted with EU membership. 
Seems you've taken for granted the right to hold a vote and not have that vote subject to punitive measures by government body that you happen to be part of and being subject to harshly punitive measures for leaving it. Seems like people take for granted the right to act in their interests and not the interests of Martin Schulz or Guy Verhofstadt.

I'd gladly wait in line to go through customs instead of seeing my country subjected to such treatment. I am not easily swayed by trinkets and cheap thrills.

fine.  you're not European.  so it's just your opinion from afar.  cool.  whatever.

I'm guessing you  assume a guy flying the flag of St George during the World Cup is also a cutn so you wouldn't be too bothered about the ban.

As a rule, I don't click on crap newspapers to give them a 'hit'.  But I'd have no problem with someone flying a St George flag during the world cup.  There are different levels of association/stereotyping to this.  Displaying a flag in your home is your choice.  I don't judge Koreans for flying their flags during their bank holidays.  It's fine.  I just think these days the PC brigade/media go too far shoving this kind of bollocks down people's throats.  Obviously, they have to print something.  Sun readers would lap this kind of thing up.  As for my stereotyping of people wearing MAGA hats, they should know there are negative connotations for wearing such hats as it's an association with their ridiculous president and the current regime.  Same with my England shirt wearing Brits abroad, they're making a statement, and you can take it as you want.  Tattoo wearing people still can't go into some public baths in Japan.  Is it rational?  No.  It's up to each individual to decide. 
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: alexisalex on May 30, 2019, 10:33:02 am
It's so hassle free.  This is just one of the things, I think that people take for granted with EU membership. 
Seems you've taken for granted the right to hold a vote and not have that vote subject to punitive measures by government body that you happen to be part of and being subject to harshly punitive measures for leaving it. Seems like people take for granted the right to act in their interests and not the interests of Martin Schulz or Guy Verhofstadt.

I'd gladly wait in line to go through customs instead of seeing my country subjected to such treatment. I am not easily swayed by trinkets and cheap thrills.

fine.  you're not European.  so it's just your opinion from afar.  cool.  whatever.

I'm guessing you  assume a guy flying the flag of St George during the World Cup is also a cutn so you wouldn't be too bothered about the ban.

As a rule, I don't click on crap newspapers to give them a 'hit'.  But I'd have no problem with someone flying a St George flag during the world cup.  There are different levels of association/stereotyping to this.  Displaying a flag in your home is your choice.  I don't judge Koreans for flying their flags during their bank holidays.  It's fine.  I just think these days the PC brigade/media go too far shoving this kind of bollocks down people's throats.  Obviously, they have to print something.  Sun readers would lap this kind of thing up.  As for my stereotyping of people wearing MAGA hats, they should know there are negative connotations for wearing such hats as it's an association with their ridiculous president and the current regime.  Same with my England shirt wearing Brits abroad, they're making a statement, and you can take it as you want.  Tattoo wearing people still can't go into some public baths in Japan.  Is it rational?  No.  It's up to each individual to decide. 

I think the common perception in the UK is that this isn't fine (and I think you might agree).  I would say that people flying Korean flags outside their homes here are not looked down upon like Brits are.  It's purely a class thing.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on May 30, 2019, 11:23:34 am
I think the common perception in the UK is that this isn't fine (and I think you might agree).  I would say that people flying Korean flags outside their homes here are not looked down upon like Brits are.  It's purely a class thing.

I'm not so sure it's purely a class thing, overt patriotism from the government and citizens is shoved much less down people's throats in England than it is here, given both country's different histories.  As it's not on show more often in England, when it is displayed, it tends to invoke negative attention for some reason.  I don't think in England we are more patriotic, it's just not drummed into us from a young age.  I went to watch some of the U20 World Cup in 2017 and my Korean friends seemed amazed that I didn't know anything past 'God, save our gracious queen..', because it was never played at school when I was growing up, or pretty much any where else I was. 
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 30, 2019, 12:51:17 pm
fine.  you're not European.  so it's just your opinion from afar.  cool.  whatever.
But you'll happily comment on Trump.

And I say that's perfectly fine.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on May 30, 2019, 01:02:08 pm
I'm not so sure it's purely a class thing, overt patriotism from the government and citizens is shoved much less down people's throats in England than it is here, given both country's different histories. 
Given my experience...yes and no. There's less formal indoctrination it seems like, from what I've gathered. However, there seems to be this general patriotism and ethno-centrism that gets absorbed and tends to manifest itself, sometimes subconsciously.

Case in point, I've mentioned before the way some Brits use the term 'proper' to describe things that are just different styles of cooking or whatever. That kind of attitude, that YOUR way is the 'proper' way and the other ways are somehow alien or slightly inferior, is a definite kind of patriotism and has to come from some sort of indoctrination.

And by no means is this a British-only phenomenon. You go to pretty much every country and you'll find people who think the same way about certain things. But I think sometimes British and Americans, more so than the other ESL nationalities, tend to fall into this, although I'd say America's is more overt and indoctrinating than the UKs.

At the same time, we have to say that there isn't necessarily always something wrong with this. A healthy dose of patriotism has certainly pulled our respective chestnuts out of the fire on more than one occasion.

Quote
'God, save our gracious queen..', because it was never played at school when I was growing up, or pretty much any where else I was.
Not at sports? Not at the opera or anything? I'm American and we would sing it at various Shakespeare/Classical/Gilbert & Sullivan events as an opening. Never watched The Proms?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Cyanea on May 31, 2019, 02:04:44 am
I didn't know anything past 'God, save our gracious queen..', because it was never played at school when I was growing up, or pretty much any where else I was. 

Where have you been? Its played at international sports fixtures. The world cup. International rugby matches. The proms, the olympics, daily by radio 4 and radio 2, at close of programming by the BBC (until at least 1997). It is also the national anthem of Australia, Canada, new zealand etc.

Sounds like sheer laziness on your part.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on June 03, 2019, 07:33:42 am
Where have you been? Its played at international sports fixtures. The world cup. International rugby matches. The proms, the olympics, daily by radio 4 and radio 2, at close of programming by the BBC (until at least 1997). It is also the national anthem of Australia, Canada, new zealand etc.

Sounds like sheer laziness on your part.

 :laugh:  You crack me up you.

When is the world cup?  every four years.
International rugby?  Haven't watched that since I was 10 years old.
The Proms?  Radio 2?  Radio 4?  Public school boy are we?
At the close of programming?  Why the hell would I still be awake at 1/2am?

There is nothing 'lazy' about not knowing the words to our crappy national anthem.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on June 03, 2019, 09:14:49 am
The Proms?  Radio 2?  Radio 4?  Public school boy are we?
At the close of programming?  Why the hell would I still be awake at 1/2am?

There is nothing 'lazy' about not knowing the words to our crappy national anthem.
Doesn't read. Can't be arsed with things like classical music or Shakespeare dramas. National anthems? Pfft.

Calls Trump an uneducated simpleton.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on June 03, 2019, 09:22:28 am
The Proms?  Radio 2?  Radio 4?  Public school boy are we?
At the close of programming?  Why the hell would I still be awake at 1/2am?

There is nothing 'lazy' about not knowing the words to our crappy national anthem.
Doesn't read. Can't be arsed with things like classical music or Shakespeare dramas. National anthems? Pfft.

Calls Trump an uneducated simpleton.

what I'm going to do from now on, is given your evidential adoration of trump, his grammar mistakes, his crap spelling and his general stupidity, I'm going to take every repetitive OCD post like this of yours, as your secret adoration for me.   deal?   :-*
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: eggieguffer on June 03, 2019, 09:43:30 am
Every honest Englishman (unless they're thick) knows the national Anthem up to here

"God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen;
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us,
God save the Queen."

No one except people like Stephen Fry or super posh people can sing any of the lines after it.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on June 03, 2019, 09:58:19 am
Every honest Englishman (unless they're thick) knows the national Anthem up to here

"God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen;
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us,
God save the Queen."

No one except people like Stephen Fry or super posh people can sing any of the lines after it.
Same with the Star Spangled Banner. Same with 애국가.

But not being able to sing the first verse? Either a life of ignorance or possibly wet brain.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on June 03, 2019, 10:10:51 am
Quote
"God save our gracious Queen": Why would we invoke a non-specific deity to bail out these unelected spongers?

Bill Bailey
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: robin_teacher on June 03, 2019, 10:32:25 am
Every honest Englishman (unless they're thick) knows the national Anthem up to here

"God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen;
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us,
God save the Queen."

No one except people like Stephen Fry or super posh people can sing any of the lines after it.

You lost me after the first line, which is coincidentally the same point I lose interest in the message. We need a better anthem for an enlightened age; not that subservient drivel. 
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: alexisalex on June 03, 2019, 10:39:55 am
I'm trying to decide what I am then.  Here are the options (so far):

Not an honest Englishman
Thick
Have led a life of ignorance
Wet brained (whatever that means)

 :laugh:
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: kyndo on June 03, 2019, 10:45:14 am
Every honest Englishman (unless they're thick) knows the national Anthem up to here

"God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen;
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us,
God save the Queen."

No one except people like Stephen Fry or super posh people can sing any of the lines after it.

You lost me after the first line, which is coincidentally the same point I lose interest in the message. We need a better anthem for an enlightened age; not that subservient drivel. 
The queen's now like what? 200? Seems to me that God's already saved her plenty.
Anyway, a truly merciful deity would let her pass away before the last shreds of respect for the British aristocracy does.  :sad:
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: eggieguffer on June 03, 2019, 11:20:20 am
I'm trying to decide what I am then.  Here are the options (so far):

Not an honest Englishman
Thick
Have led a life of ignorance
Wet brained (whatever that means)

 :laugh:

Well I wouldn't beat yourself up too much about it, I'm fairly sure you wouldn't come across it in schools or universities these days.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on October 18, 2019, 09:16:05 am
Tomorrow will be very interesting.  Boris the cant (cockney pronunciation) is having his wan-key deal vote, which is on a knife-edge, at the same time as there is a demonstration in London which may well exceed the previous ones.  Previously, there were said to be 900 000 or so at the last demo, so if that's exceeded it will be quite something.  My 80-year-old mum has made her trip down from the Peak District (as she has done every time there is demo like this) and there are loads of coaches going from all around the country and converging on London.   :undecided:
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on October 18, 2019, 09:43:10 am
So the UK will be out, but in (NI)...but won’t get to have a say in EU laws.

There will be no more freedom of movement for Brits, but the rights of Brits living in the EU and EU citizens living in the UK will be “respected”.

Scotland will be looking for a referendum on secession in the very near future.

And in true Brexit clusterfeck fashion... “It shall be unlawful for Her Majesty’s Government to enter into arrangements under which Northern Ireland forms part of a separate customs territory to Great Britain.” - legislation passed by none other than top Brexit bellend Jacob Rees-Mogg (https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/boris-johnson-brexit-deal-faces-late-legal-challenge-as-it-breaks-legislation-from-jacob-rees-mogg/16/10/)
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: fka on October 18, 2019, 10:43:50 am
Boris and Rees-Mogg are bravely taking down the elites and restoring power to the common man.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on October 18, 2019, 11:00:37 am
Boris and Rees-Mogg are bravely taking down the elites and restoring power to the common man.

(https://media1.giphy.com/media/UX7N2puPah4hq/source.gif)
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on October 18, 2019, 11:54:28 am
Boris and Rees-Mogg are bravely taking down the elites and restoring power to the common man.

Yeah, it should be Tommy Robinson doing it.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: shanebarry1986 on October 18, 2019, 12:47:18 pm
Good luck, UK. Good luck, democracy.

Let's celebrate preemptively at HBC fest tonight! Gulag Chicken go onstage at Phillies at 9, they're sure to dedicate a song to the independence movements in Hong Kong and the UK.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SPQR on October 18, 2019, 01:48:09 pm
I'm an ardent remainer. But let's get the bloody thing over with.

In the future all the old, dementia ridden, xenophobes will be dead,
The economy will be shite.  A lot of benefits the EU currently exposes
the UK to will be sorely missed.

At that time another referendum will re-include Britain into the fold
and the that will be that.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: tylerthegloob on October 18, 2019, 01:55:09 pm
I'm an ardent remainer.

arent you from canada?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Colburnnn on October 18, 2019, 01:55:57 pm
I'm an ardent remainer. But let's get the bloody thing over with.

In the future all the old, dementia ridden, xenophobes will be dead,
The economy will be shite.  A lot of benefits the EU currently exposes
the UK to will be sorely missed.

At that time another referendum will re-include Britain into the fold
and the that will be that.

Nothing like celebrating people dying. Classy bunch.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on October 18, 2019, 02:00:05 pm
Quote
In the future all the old, dementia ridden, xenophobes will be dead,

Yep, I didn't vote in the last one but the abundance of comments like that would persuade me to vote leave on principle, if they have another referendum.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on October 18, 2019, 02:13:30 pm
Muh feelings was hurted so imma vote to ruin duh economics.

PS: why duh millennials sooooo snowflake?!?!
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: StillInKorea on October 18, 2019, 02:20:49 pm
In the future all the old, dementia ridden, xenophobes will be dead

There's a good chance that a few of them will be unable to get the medicine they need due to Brexit. Let's hope that contributes to a quick death.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on October 18, 2019, 02:22:44 pm
Muh feelings was hurted so imma vote to ruin duh economics.

PS: why duh millennials sooooo snowflake?!?!

Whose feelings are hurt? People using over emotive language like 'xenobobia' tends to convince me that side has a weaker argument.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on October 18, 2019, 02:28:48 pm
Anyone who gets triggered into voting against their own interest because of a word...yeah, those are the ones with hurt feelings.

It’s not like we didn’t see the adverts and talking points during the campaign...and a lot of it indeed WAS xenophobic.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Savant on October 18, 2019, 02:33:04 pm
Every honest Englishman (unless they're thick) knows the national Anthem up to here

"God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen;
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us,
God save the Queen."

No one except people like Stephen Fry or super posh people can sing any of the lines after it.

You lost me after the first line, which is coincidentally the same point I lose interest in the message. We need a better anthem for an enlightened age; not that subservient drivel. 
The queen's now like what? 200? Seems to me that God's already saved her plenty.
Anyway, a truly merciful deity would let her pass away before the last shreds of respect for the British aristocracy does.  :sad:

All Hail! King William the Brexiteer.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on October 18, 2019, 02:49:51 pm
Quote
Anyone who gets triggered into voting against their own interest because of a word.

I said 'comments like that'

Quote
It’s not like we didn’t see the adverts and talking points during the campaign...and a lot of it indeed WAS xenophobic.

Even if true, that doesn't mean all, or even a significant percentage of those, who voted Brexit are xenophobes. there are lots of other reasons why they might have voted leave.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: kyndo on October 18, 2019, 03:40:05 pm
Whose feelings are hurt? People using over emotive language like 'xenobobia' tends to convince me that side has a weaker argument.

"Xenobobia". Lulz.
:laugh:
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on October 18, 2019, 04:18:27 pm
Even if true, that doesn't mean all, or even a significant percentage of those, who voted Brexit are xenophobes. there are lots of other reasons why they might have voted leave.

What it means is the vast majority saw those xenophobic adverts, xenophobic comments, and xenophobic policies from the top and grassroots...and said to themselves “I see this, and I’m going to vote alongside it anyway”...regardless of how non-racist and non-xenophobic these people may think they are or claim to be.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on October 18, 2019, 04:28:09 pm
Even if true, that doesn't mean all, or even a significant percentage of those, who voted Brexit are xenophobes. there are lots of other reasons why they might have voted leave.

What it means is the vast majority saw those xenophobic adverts, xenophobic comments, and xenophobic policies from the top and grassroots...and said to themselves “I see this, and I’m going to vote alongside it anyway”...regardless of how non-racist and non-xenophobic these people may think they are or claim to be.

Or, concepts and ideas were more important to them than who the media was telling them was racist that week.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on October 18, 2019, 05:03:29 pm
Concepts and ideas such as “taking back control”...control of what and taking it from who?

Concepts and ideas such as stopping the “invasion” of *ahem* through the eurozone? Even though...the UK has always had control of its own immigration system.

Concepts and ideas such as trade deals with Trump’s US? You know, opening up the NHS American style, importing chlorinated chicken and other substandard foodstuff etc.

And of course, many of those won’t even be around to experience the vast majority of the misery they caused through their vote.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: oglop on October 18, 2019, 07:14:35 pm
Concepts and ideas such as “taking back control”...control of what and taking it from who?

Concepts and ideas such as stopping the “invasion” of *ahem* through the eurozone? Even though...the UK has always had control of its own immigration system.

Concepts and ideas such as trade deals with Trump’s US? You know, opening up the NHS American style, importing chlorinated chicken and other substandard foodstuff etc.

And of course, many of those won’t even be around to experience the vast majority of the misery they caused through their vote.
i'm pretty sure most people just believe what they read in the tabloids
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on October 18, 2019, 08:47:53 pm
Concepts and ideas such as “taking back control”...control of what and taking it from who?

Concepts and ideas such as stopping the “invasion” of *ahem* through the eurozone? Even though...the UK has always had control of its own immigration system.

Concepts and ideas such as trade deals with Trump’s US? You know, opening up the NHS American style, importing chlorinated chicken and other substandard foodstuff etc.

And of course, many of those won’t even be around to experience the vast majority of the misery they caused through their vote.
i'm pretty sure most people just believe what they read in the tabloids

You know all the arguments about why people voted Brexit are very similar to the arguments the elite used in the early 20th century to try and deny women and working class people the vote.  They're not intelligent enough to understand the issues, they just believe what they're told, they respond to basic emotions like xenophobia etc. etc. 
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: fka on October 19, 2019, 09:50:14 am
(https://tompride.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/eu-press-lies.png?w=2000&h=)

How is it elitist to point out that people probably believe the stories that the media that they actively consume? I think the alternative argument - that people don't actually believe these stories - is a tougher sell. I can't find a map of UK newspaper circulation by region, but I'm willing to bet there's a high correspondence between certain tabloids and a tendency to vote leave. There is also a notable correlation between voting leave and being older and less educated.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36616028 (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36616028)

That doesn't mean that those people shouldn't have a voice, and yes, insulting them is counterproductive. The solution, of course, was for younger and better-educated people to go and vote, but we're a bit late for that now.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on October 19, 2019, 10:36:01 am
Quote
How is it elitist to point out that people probably believe the stories that the media that they actively consume? I think the alternative argument - that people don't actually believe these stories - is a tougher sell. .

Really? You think the average man on the street would say that British people generally believe what they read in the tabloids?  Only 29% have trust in the media as a whole according to this.

https://www.edelman.co.uk/insights/edelman-trust-barometer-2017-uk-findings
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: fka on October 19, 2019, 10:48:27 am
Yes, I think that decades of anti-EU stories from the most widely read newspapers probably had an effect on public attitudes. And I think that "lack of trust in media" is probably exacerbated by rivalries between different publications and a similarly consistent message that the only trustworthy media is whatever you happen to be reading.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on October 19, 2019, 12:33:32 pm
Yes, I think that decades of anti-EU stories from the most widely read newspapers probably had an effect on public attitudes. And I think that "lack of trust in media" is probably exacerbated by rivalries between different publications and a similarly consistent message that the only trustworthy media is whatever you happen to be reading.

You don't think that was more than made up for by bias in organisations like the BBC, the fact that every panel show and comedian's remit seemed to be to poke fun at the xenophobic, stupid people who wanted to leave?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: fka on October 19, 2019, 01:45:55 pm
I don't understand your argument. Is media influential in shaping people's opinions or not? If it is, then surely the many falsehoods about the EU propagated by the tabloid press had some impact on how people voted. This should be especially true when we consider who is most likely to read a limited range of popular, low-cost print media - namely, older, less educated people - and how that corresponds with voting demographics. And surely you can understand why the ultimate reach and impact of those falsehoods have angered the people who know them to be false. If media doesn't have an impact, then presumably you think that "bias in organisations like the BBC, the fact that every panel show and comedian's remit" have been inconsequential. In which case, why bring them up?

Finally, we're talking about fundamentally different things. I was talking about many years worth of news stories that purport to be factual, having an influence on how people voted in 2016. If I understand correctly, you're talking about how people perceive Leave voters, post-2016, and how those perceptions have been shaped by opinion and comedy formats. But with that being said, do I think the latter claim holds up? Sure, for the same reasons I do for the former.

Am I elitist for thinking that tabloids have historically been influential on British popular politics? Is that elitism cancelled out if I also think that the BBC, panel discussions and comedy shows can also be influential?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on October 19, 2019, 02:00:36 pm
Quote
I don't understand your argument. Is media influential in shaping people's opinions or not?

It's not one thing or another.  Some people probably were influenced by stories about oval strawberries and the like, I was just saying these days probably less than you seem to think.  A lot of people were probably also influenced to vote remain by the BBC, entertainers and comedians.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: fka on October 19, 2019, 02:18:56 pm
Okay, so it is more elitist to say that "I'm pretty sure people just believe what they read in the tabloids" than "A lot of people were probably also influenced to vote remain by the BBC, entertainers and comedians"?

It seems like the fundamental argument is the same - "People are influenced by mass media."

You obviously don't like the characterization of Leave voters as stupid xenophobes. Surely, surely you can understand why Remainers are similarly angry about lies and mischaracterization s concerning the EU, and the consequences that these demonstrable falsehoods have had. If you had a business that did a lot of trade with Europe, or a settled family member living in France, and had a strong a case for wanting to remain in the EU, are you really going to suggest that you wouldn't want to let off some steam now and then about these stupid tabloid headlines, and the people who believe them?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on October 19, 2019, 03:25:36 pm
Quote
Okay, so it is more elitist to say that "I'm pretty sure people just believe what they read in the tabloids" than "A lot of people were probably also influenced to vote remain by the BBC, entertainers and comedians"?

The first one sounds more elitist because it's what the elite - ie the chattering classes - are saying about the masses.  There aren't a bunch of ordinary people on TV or in the broadsheets sounding off about people who voted remain being thick. They don't need to for one thing, because they won the vote.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on October 20, 2019, 06:47:21 pm
I've said it before and I'll say it again, while the concept of the EU is laudable, it's structure is fundamentally flawed. And rather than sinking costs into something that is inherently flawed and a terrible mechanism for governance, they should tear it down and start anew. However, the people that run the EU are too proud and stubborn to do such a thing and thus they've tried to convince people that the EU is the only thing standing between Europe and World War III and thus they need to support it or a massive tied of war and racism will overrun the continent. Stop sinking resources and effort into something that needs to be scrapped and replaced. This same principle is found in all sorts of fields- engineering, business, military science, agriculture, etc.

By leaving the EU, and hopefully setting a model for other countries to leave, the UK will help hasten the demise of this flawed, over-engineered bad piece of design. Much like the Articles of Confederation lead to the U.S. government that has been stable for over 200 years, so too can the demise of the EU pave the way for something better to take its place.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Savant on October 20, 2019, 07:45:24 pm
I've said it before and I'll say it again, while the concept of the EU is laudable, it's structure is fundamentally flawed. And rather than sinking costs into something that is inherently flawed and a terrible mechanism for governance, they should tear it down and start anew. However, the people that run the EU are too proud and stubborn to do such a thing and thus they've tried to convince people that the EU is the only thing standing between Europe and World War III and thus they need to support it or a massive tied of war and racism will overrun the continent. Stop sinking resources and effort into something that needs to be scrapped and replaced. This same principle is found in all sorts of fields- engineering, business, military science, agriculture, etc.

By leaving the EU, and hopefully setting a model for other countries to leave, the UK will help hasten the demise of this flawed, over-engineered bad piece of design. Much like the Articles of Confederation lead to the U.S. government that has been stable for over 200 years, so too can the demise of the EU pave the way for something better to take its place.

I think quite a few US states would love to leave the Union. Not to mention the Southern States which are just a drain on resources and taxpayer money.

The UK plan after leaving the EU is...

That's right, there isn't one. The only model they have thought of is to just leave.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on October 20, 2019, 09:48:30 pm
The UK plan after leaving the EU is...

That's right, there isn't one. The only model they have thought of is to just leave.
Focus on the high growth markets of Africa, Latin America, and Asia and sign deals more specifically suited to both countries, without having to wait for the EU bureaucratic slog and headache of dealing with two separate legal systems.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Cohort 2019 on October 21, 2019, 05:51:59 am
high growth markets

LOL
You'd need water for that.
(https://whyfiles.org/131fresh_water/images/world_water.gif)
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on October 21, 2019, 07:15:27 am
The UK plan after leaving the EU is...

Of course, there isn't one.  Historically, the UK has wriggled and griped about its membership of the EU since it joined.  The UK thinks it should get special treatment or be treated differently through some perceived superiority it has through its glorious history.  Fka is also right about the drip of anti-EU nonsense over decades that has an effect on people, I mean those pesky foreigners who want us to have straight bananas.   :rolleyes: 

The long and the short of it is the Brexit lies that were used to get people to leave were just that, lies.  But the UK didn't vote for a no-deal Brexit.  It voted for a Brexit, but not one without a deal at the end of it.  Like anyone thought it'd be easy to divorce yourself from a nearly 5-decade association.  I suspect the large majority of Brits would accept a Brexit if it were put to the public again, and Brexit won again.  That's all we are saying.  Now we know what's on the table with Brexit, people can make more of an informed choice, as it was not what was offered in the original referendum. 

My mum had a great time on Saturday.  Lots of lovely people.  Lots of lovely chatting.  Obviously, she enjoyed a nice sit down after it all and a cup of tea. 
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: oglop on October 21, 2019, 07:40:05 am
weird how brexit went from being "the easiest deal in history" and we were expected to have a "Norwegian-style agreement" to somehow changing, with a no-deal brexit was somehow what everyone voted for in 2016

it's all just nonsense at this point. "the will of the people" still being used even after the PMs have tried to shove the same vote through parliament a billion times

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HDFegpX5gI
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on October 21, 2019, 07:40:52 am

Focus on the high growth markets of Africa, Latin America, and Asia and sign deals more specifically suited to both countries, without having to wait for the EU bureaucratic slog and headache of dealing with two separate legal systems.

Yeahhhh...those countries are saying "thanks, but no thanks, we'd like our stolen historical artifacts and wealth back though, and please stop instigating military conflicts within our borders".

What does the UK have to offer these countries, that they currently cannot and do not get from China, the EU and the US?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on October 21, 2019, 07:45:08 am
Quote
Fka is also right about the drip of anti-EU nonsense over decades that has an effect on people, I mean those pesky foreigners who want us to have straight bananas.   

It's worth pointing out that anti EU sentiments have also traditionally come from Socialist groups and trade unions in the UK and prominent left-wing figures such as Tony Benn and Jeremy Corbyn, who thought it was anti-democratic, so it's not just down to the right wing tabloids. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No2EU
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on October 21, 2019, 09:09:10 am
high growth markets

LOL
You'd need water for that.
(https://whyfiles.org/131fresh_water/images/world_water.gif)

Your map shows the UK having no water scarcity. Those other countries having some water scarcity. That imbalance right there can be the basis for trade.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on October 21, 2019, 09:11:50 am
Yeahhhh...those countries are saying "thanks, but no thanks, we'd like our stolen historical artifacts and wealth back though, and please stop instigating military conflicts within our borders".

What does the UK have to offer these countries, that they currently cannot and do not get from China, the EU and the US?
Fine, give up some historical artifacts. BFD.

They can offer British products and services. Japan and Korea are single, solitary nations that have managed to find their way. The UK can too.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: hangook77 on November 12, 2019, 10:22:00 am
Why do folks like an outside entity passing rules and regulations concerning your nation?  I guess to each their own since I'm not Brit.  Never liked Theresa May.  She was just another anti Trump loser always complaining about him.  From the outside, she seemed wishy washy and fake. 
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: kyndo on November 12, 2019, 11:24:37 am
Why do folks like an outside entity passing rules and regulations concerning your nation?  I guess to each their own since I'm not Brit.  Never liked Theresa May.  She was just another anti Trump loser always complaining about him.  From the outside, she seemed wishy washy and fake. 
She's a politician. Aside from the odd revolutionary, they're all wishy-washy and fake. That's basically their job.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on December 12, 2019, 11:05:03 am
Right, UK, you have a big chance today, don't fook it up again or I'm going to be furious.  Right!
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: oglop on December 12, 2019, 11:12:28 am
i'm gonna go and hide in a fridge until the results are in
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on December 12, 2019, 11:26:33 am
i'm gonna go and hide in a fridge until the results are in

You are Indiana Jones?

Thing is, we can't really hide from it.  It's while I'm at school tomorrow.    It's my school test period so I have maybe two invigilating periods in the morning and then I'm free for the rest of the day, so avoiding it is almost impossible.  I've watched trump be elected and the brexit vote, this had better not be the third in a pattern of shit.

Usually, if I'm watching Arsenal here, and they're losing, I always stop watching around the 70-minute mark and then go to bed, and then hope they pull a goal or two back.   That is my crap superstition, and sometimes it works.  But then we sold Giroud and he was usually the guy to pull it out of the bag.  If the election starts going downhill, maybe I'll switch off, and hope Giroud can stop Brexit. 
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: oglop on December 12, 2019, 11:33:10 am
didn't see?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/11/boris-johnson-hides-in-fridge-to-avoid-piers-morgan-interview
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: MayorHaggar on December 12, 2019, 11:35:17 am
Right, UK, you have a big chance today, don't fook it up again or I'm going to be furious.  Right!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhdO_bYby1U
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on December 12, 2019, 11:41:14 am
didn't see?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/11/boris-johnson-hides-in-fridge-to-avoid-piers-morgan-interview

Nope.  Also, I hate Piers Morgan more than Boris Johnson.  Not even Morgan being an Arsenal fan redeems him in the least. 
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: oglop on December 12, 2019, 11:47:03 am
i will say this: piers is a complete ****. i agree. but during this campaign he has really been good at grilling MPs (especially the tories, and he's a tory himself  believe), and doesn't let them get away with anything.

wasn't johnson accusing corbyn of being a chicken recently..? boris has been running away from almost every interview recently
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Colburnnn on December 12, 2019, 11:58:24 am
The problem is, much like the US election is the alternative is just a dumpster fire. I'm not sure anyone really wanted Trump. They just didn't want Hilary. The same applies today. Boris is a joker and a liar, but the alternative is worse! If only Labour had put forward a likeable leader, they would have had it in the bag... :(

If you believe the polls then Labour will be lucky to hang onto a hung parliament.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on December 12, 2019, 12:28:54 pm
Boris is a joker and a liar, but the alternative is worse! If only Labour had put forward a likeable leader, they would have had it in the bag... :(

I had a discussion along these lines a couple of months back with mum. Even though she's 80 she still travelled from the Peak District down to London for the marches. Basically, it's safe to say that there is a majority of Labour MPS who would want a second referendum.  And I'm pretty sure that there is enough public demand for a second referendum that if Corbyn had come out and demanded that he wanted that, he'd get a load of support.  But he just dilli-dallied around and didn't say anything that forcefully. A while back, I thought that he seemed like a good choice, but the more he didn't say something about demanding a second referendum, the more he'd look like a weak idiot.  Mum thought it was because he was 'principled' that is why he didn't say something as he's not exactly an EU lover.   But still.  Where is the harm in coming out with a strong position for a second vote?  I'm not sure when he finally quietly mentioned something about wanting a second vote, but it was too late.  By then, he just annoyed me.  I still think there is a massive part of the population who support a second referendum and he didn't tap into this, he just stood around, waiting, which made him look like a dick.  But to me, he's still better than Johnson.  I mean what a massive fukcing cant he is.  I still blame Merton and Hislop for this. 
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: McTinkle on December 12, 2019, 12:57:12 pm
Boris is a joker and a liar, but the alternative is worse! If only Labour had put forward a likeable leader, they would have had it in the bag... :(

I had a discussion along these lines a couple of months back with mum. Even though she's 80 she still travelled from the Peak District down to London for the marches. Basically, it's safe to say that there is a majority of Labour MPS who would want a second referendum.  And I'm pretty sure that there is enough public demand for a second referendum that if Corbyn had come out and demanded that he wanted that, he'd get a load of support.  But he just dilli-dallied around and didn't say anything that forcefully. A while back, I thought that he seemed like a good choice, but the more he didn't say something about demanding a second referendum, the more he'd look like a weak idiot.  Mum thought it was because he was 'principled' that is why he didn't say something as he's not exactly an EU lover.   But still.  Where is the harm in coming out with a strong position for a second vote?  I'm not sure when he finally quietly mentioned something about wanting a second vote, but it was too late.
A second referendum is in Labour's manifesto: https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/the-final-say-on-brexit/

This highlights an actual issue with this election, the UK has a very biased media owned by billionaires who are very scared about Labour getting in. They have done an absolute hit job on Corbyn and its sickening to watch and disappointing to see people get suckered in by it. Even the BBC has been caught several times being openly biased against Labour.

If you can vote please vote Labour. I have to vote tactically to get the tories out and there's no shame doing that either.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on December 12, 2019, 01:07:27 pm
If you can vote please vote Labour. I have to vote tactically to get the tories out and there's no shame doing that either.

My mum has my vote.  I was a little surprised because I've not lived in England for over 15 years, which I thought was the cut-off point for being able to vote.  But she got a card through for me, so she has my proxy as well as my older brother too.  She's been calling around on behalf of Labour, so she's been doing her bit.  The High Peak Labour MP is a young passionate female who was really great in the hustings.  The Conservative candidate was and is fuuking hopeless. 
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: oglop on December 12, 2019, 01:39:11 pm
this is pretty damning:

"Investigation finds ‘88% of Tory ads misleading compared to 0% for Labour'"

https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/

and the Metro is owned by the Daily Mail, which is even more surprising they'd publish this.


the BBC just went with:

"General election 2019: Ads are 'indecent, dishonest and untruthful'" which is a bs headline

Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: MayorHaggar on December 12, 2019, 04:04:14 pm
Boris is a joker and a liar, but the alternative is worse! If only Labour had put forward a likeable leader, they would have had it in the bag... :(

I had a discussion along these lines a couple of months back with mum. Even though she's 80 she still travelled from the Peak District down to London for the marches. Basically, it's safe to say that there is a majority of Labour MPS who would want a second referendum.  And I'm pretty sure that there is enough public demand for a second referendum that if Corbyn had come out and demanded that he wanted that, he'd get a load of support.  But he just dilli-dallied around and didn't say anything that forcefully. A while back, I thought that he seemed like a good choice, but the more he didn't say something about demanding a second referendum, the more he'd look like a weak idiot.  Mum thought it was because he was 'principled' that is why he didn't say something as he's not exactly an EU lover.   But still.  Where is the harm in coming out with a strong position for a second vote?  I'm not sure when he finally quietly mentioned something about wanting a second vote, but it was too late.  By then, he just annoyed me.  I still think there is a massive part of the population who support a second referendum and he didn't tap into this, he just stood around, waiting, which made him look like a dick.  But to me, he's still better than Johnson.  I mean what a massive fukcing cant he is.  I still blame Merton and Hislop for this. 

Yeah I can't believe how dumb Corbyn is by refusing to come out against Brexit. The Cons are obviously pro-Brexit, yet they're basically expelling a large number of party members who are anti-Brexit. If Labour branded itself as anti-Brexit they'd get a massive surge of support from these types of conservatives. Corbyn seems to be catering to the 1% of Labourites who hate the EU because it's too capitalist or something. Even the Lib Dems are basically committing suicide to try and get Boris out.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on December 12, 2019, 04:17:26 pm
Corbyn isn’t dumb for not trying to pander to ex conservatives who were kicked out by Johnson.

All he’d end up getting is right wing labour politicians who would vote conservative on almost every issue that comes before them...essentially a pro corporate, pro war and anti progressive group that would have an effect on party and parliament policy.

I’d rather have Corbyn’s principled and organic version of progressive politics thank you very much. He doesn’t need to pander and push for something he himself doesn’t believe in...there are already plenty of slimy politicians for that.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on December 12, 2019, 04:53:48 pm
Do you remember the UK politicians expenses scandal back in 2009? Euro MPs literally couldn't understand what the fuss was about, I heard from an EP in Brussels at the time. 'Um, yes you live near London but claim for an extra house, vat iz ze problem with zat? Etc...And these are the guys you want to give over power to without any accountability?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SPQR on December 13, 2019, 07:16:34 am
Well, it's 8:09AM Korea time and it looks like the Tories are set to win an
86 seat majority.  I don't like Boris Johnson, I think he should be in prison,
but at least it's over.

It's not a big surprise. Jeremy Corbyn can't even manage to shave.  How could
he possibly be PM.  Ho doesn't inspire confidence in the slightest.

Looks like Brexit is a done deal now.  The final chapter in the story of the
British empire and possibly the end of the UK as we know it.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Cohort 2019 on December 13, 2019, 07:32:42 am
Well, those voters are in for a rude awakening when they discover that Britain has agreed to follow EU rules for another year and Boris is completely clueless.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Datasapien on December 13, 2019, 07:43:37 am
The final chapter in the story of the British empire and possibly the end of the UK as we know it.

Yeah, I see another Scottish referendum on the horizon ...
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on December 13, 2019, 10:32:22 am
The final chapter in the story of the
British empire and possibly the end of the UK as we know it.
It's already been over. The past is the past. Look to a future as an independent England that will carve her own way forward. It's the 21st century, large far-flung empires were barely a thing of the civilized 20th century, much less the 21st.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on December 13, 2019, 10:51:48 am
The final chapter in the story of the
British empire and possibly the end of the UK as we know it.
It's already been over. The past is the past. Look to a future as an independent England that will carve her own way forward. It's the 21st century, large far-flung empires were barely a thing of the civilized 20th century, much less the 21st.

Hey, we've still got Bermuda, Gibraltar and the Falkland islands!
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on December 13, 2019, 11:09:56 am
Looks like the public didn't want a second referendum. Every time someone mentioned it on Question Time the audience booed.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: CO2 on December 13, 2019, 11:33:25 am
Looks like the public didn't want a second referendum. Every time someone mentioned it on Question Time the audience booed.

It doesn't matter how one feels about the outcome. The whole point of a goddamn referendum is to make a law or political decision.

BUT BUT

No. The people voted and the country HAS TO accept the decision. It can be argued that the referendum should have been a super majority, fair play. 60%+1.

It wasn't, The Cons have won and that it the final nail in the coffin. Leave the EU.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on December 13, 2019, 11:40:13 am
And these are the guys you want to give over power to without any accountability?

What are you talking about?  We joined the EU in 1973.  What do you mean, 'give over power without accountability?', you're like 46 years too late with this kind of dumb comment.  Most of us, have only known the UK in the EU and feel that we haven't done too badly out of it.  And as for sovereignty?  Almost no country has power over their decisions be they with defence or economic, to name a couple.  What the fook will the UK do now?  Join with trump and his shitshow?  Jesus help us.  What about Brits living abroad?  Pensions?  Stuff like that, do you think Johnson gives two shits about that?  Of course he doesn't, he a fooking arrogant idiot who can't see two centimetres in front of his face. 

Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: MayorHaggar on December 13, 2019, 12:00:27 pm
Corbyn isn’t dumb for not trying to pander to ex conservatives who were kicked out by Johnson.

All he’d end up getting is right wing labour politicians who would vote conservative on almost every issue that comes before them...essentially a pro corporate, pro war and anti progressive group that would have an effect on party and parliament policy.

I’d rather have Corbyn’s principled and organic version of progressive politics thank you very much. He doesn’t need to pander and push for something he himself doesn’t believe in...there are already plenty of slimy politicians for that.

LOL well thanks to your "principles" it looks like you're getting the biggest Tory majority since 1983. So now you'll get zero of what you want instead of a lot of what you want.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on December 13, 2019, 12:29:37 pm
Quote
 

What are you talking about?  We joined the EU in 1973.  What do you mean, 'give over power without accountability?', you're like 46 years too late   

Ok so you think Boris Johnson is a fooking idiot, suppose i think the same about Ursula Von De Leyen head of the European commission. I didn't have the chance to vote for her and I sure as hell don't have any say in getting rid of her.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on December 13, 2019, 12:33:17 pm

LOL well thanks to your "principles" it looks like you're getting the biggest Tory majority since 1983. So now you'll get zero of what you want instead of a lot of what you want.

It's a shame. The British public have said they preferred to be lied to and prefer to be treated with contempt by the ruling and upper class.

They shall get what they asked for in abundance. People thought the 80s were bad? Ha! New additions to the British vocabulary: Preexisting condition, Medical underwriter, GoFundMe.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on December 13, 2019, 12:36:59 pm
Ha ha, Swinson loses her seat. Her promise to reverse Brexit did't go down too well.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on December 13, 2019, 01:14:42 pm
Quote
   
It's a shame. The British public have said they preferred to be lied to and prefer to be treated with contempt by the ruling and upper class.
   

The opposite in fact. They decided not to be treted with contempt by the majority of parliament who wanted to thwart brexit.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: oglop on December 13, 2019, 01:15:50 pm
Corbyn isn’t dumb for not trying to pander to ex conservatives who were kicked out by Johnson.

All he’d end up getting is right wing labour politicians who would vote conservative on almost every issue that comes before them...essentially a pro corporate, pro war and anti progressive group that would have an effect on party and parliament policy.

I’d rather have Corbyn’s principled and organic version of progressive politics thank you very much. He doesn’t need to pander and push for something he himself doesn’t believe in...there are already plenty of slimy politicians for that.

LOL well thanks to your "principles" it looks like you're getting the biggest Tory majority since 1983. So now you'll get zero of what you want instead of a lot of what you want.
i guess it pays to flat-out lie, mislead the public whenever possible through fake news and advertisements, and only take part in interviews where you know you won't be scrutinised. apparently the public doesnt give a shit about any of this
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SPQR on December 13, 2019, 01:41:18 pm

i guess it pays to flat-out lie, mislead the public whenever possible through fake news and advertisements, and only take part in interviews where you know you won't be scrutinized. apparently the public doesn't give a shit about any of this


Of course.  I thought this was self evident nowadays.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Cohort 2019 on December 13, 2019, 01:52:48 pm
Quote
only take part in interviews where you know you won't be scrutinized

Epic moment of Boris hiding in a walk-in freezer!
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on December 13, 2019, 01:56:09 pm
And these are the guys you want to give over power to without any accountability?

What are you talking about?  We joined the EU in 1973.  What do you mean, 'give over power without accountability?', you're like 46 years too late with this kind of dumb comment.  Most of us, have only known the UK in the EU and feel that we haven't done too badly out of it.  And as for sovereignty?  Almost no country has power over their decisions be they with defence or economic, to name a couple.  What the fook will the UK do now?  Join with trump and his shitshow?  Jesus help us.  What about Brits living abroad?  Pensions?  Stuff like that, do you think Johnson gives two shits about that?  Of course he doesn't, he a fooking arrogant idiot who can't see two centimetres in front of his face.
Gee I don't know, how does the rest of the world outside of Europe manage to survive without being in your precious EU?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on December 13, 2019, 01:59:11 pm
And these are the guys you want to give over power to without any accountability?

What are you talking about?  We joined the EU in 1973.  What do you mean, 'give over power without accountability?', you're like 46 years too late with this kind of dumb comment.  Most of us, have only known the UK in the EU and feel that we haven't done too badly out of it.  And as for sovereignty?  Almost no country has power over their decisions be they with defence or economic, to name a couple.  What the fook will the UK do now?  Join with trump and his shitshow?  Jesus help us.  What about Brits living abroad?  Pensions?  Stuff like that, do you think Johnson gives two shits about that?  Of course he doesn't, he a fooking arrogant idiot who can't see two centimetres in front of his face.
Gee I don't know, how does the rest of the world outside of Europe manage to survive without being in your precious EU?

Gee, geography not one of your strong subjects, is it?  You should travel more, it'll give you a better, more educated perspective. 
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on December 13, 2019, 02:05:15 pm
Quote
   
i guess it pays to flat-out lie, mislead the public whenever possible through fake news and advertisements, and only take part in interviews where you know you won't be scrutinised. apparently the public doesnt give a shit about any of this 

How do they know he lied about his election promises when he's not even in power yet? But anyway we all know this election wasn 't about numbers of nurses and hospitals.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: robin_teacher on December 13, 2019, 02:15:53 pm
If and when they try and sell the NHS the British public will riot. 2020's gonna be f*cking awful. All we need now is for the queen to die.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Colburnnn on December 13, 2019, 02:30:31 pm
About as clearer rejection of Labour leadership and as clearer mandate for completing the UK's exit from the EU as you will see. A walkover. No second vote. It's done. Finally.

The smears and the (as above) ridiculous stories about Boris 'hiding' in a fridge, didn't work. The 25th hour dying child on a hospital floor attack didn't work. The begging for tactical voting didn't work.

Labour abandoned and ignored what the working class voted for in 2016. And they got a big boot up the arse for doing so. You get what you deserve.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on December 13, 2019, 02:59:07 pm
Gee, geography not one of your strong subjects, is it?  You should travel more, it'll give you a better, more educated perspective. 
Gee, there are nations IN Europe that are developed and NOT part of the EU,

Gee, how does New Zealand survive not being part of Australia? How does Canada survive without taking orders from Washington?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: oglop on December 13, 2019, 03:22:24 pm
Quote
   
i guess it pays to flat-out lie, mislead the public whenever possible through fake news and advertisements, and only take part in interviews where you know you won't be scrutinised. apparently the public doesnt give a shit about any of this 

How do they know he lied about his election promises when he's not even in power yet? But anyway we all know this election wasn 't about numbers of nurses and hospitals.
Take your pick
https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

Plus this
www.metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/amp/
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on December 13, 2019, 03:35:04 pm
Gee, geography not one of your strong subjects, is it?  You should travel more, it'll give you a better, more educated perspective. 
Gee, there are nations IN Europe that are developed and NOT part of the EU,

Gee, how does New Zealand survive not being part of Australia? How does Canada survive without taking orders from Washington?

Gee, I would hope that if you could read and understand the thread title, you would hopefully understand why we are not arguing about Australia and Canada.   :rolleyes:  Like you constantly arguing with people in the ranting thread. 

And as for European countries NOT in the EU, hmmm, oh difficult one.  Albania?  Is waiting to join.  Andorra?  Too small.  Belarus?  Has dictatorship and still linked to Russia.  Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Hoping to join when it sorts out its civil war stuff.   Iceland?  Waiting, and a little dependent on Norway.  Liechenstein?  See Andorra.  Macedonia and Moldova?  Waiting.  Norway?  Government wants, people don't.  Russia? Not likely. San Marino?  See Andorra and Liechenstein.  Serbia?  Working in it.  Swiss?  Government wants, people don't.  Turkey?  Wants to, but it's a difficult one.   Ukraine?  Linked to Russia.  Vatican City?  Has a special relationship through Italy. 

So, to point out your stupid 'let's argue about B' point.  Most of those countries want to join, or are developing politically and socially.  The ones on that list that would be most developed are Norway and Switzerland.  Thing is Norway and Switzerland both dominate the most expensive places to live in Europe and even the world. 

Seriously, travel a bit and learn some more geography.  Do a bit of interrailing around Europe, take some photos, eat a croissant, take in a bit of the European culture and you'll see why this is all nuts.  Seriously, it'll do you some good.   Give you a better perspective. 
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on December 13, 2019, 04:15:58 pm
Quote
   
i guess it pays to flat-out lie, mislead the public whenever possible through fake news and advertisements, and only take part in interviews where you know you won't be scrutinised. apparently the public doesnt give a shit about any of this 

How do they know he lied about his election promises when he's not even in power yet? But anyway we all know this election wasn 't about numbers of nurses and hospitals.
Take your pick
https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

Plus this
www.metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/amp/

Yes but surely they can only say for certain that he lied in his election promises if the things aren't done or in the planning stage when he leaves?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on December 13, 2019, 04:35:13 pm
Gee, geography not one of your strong subjects, is it?  You should travel more, it'll give you a better, more educated perspective. 
Gee, there are nations IN Europe that are developed and NOT part of the EU,

Gee, how does New Zealand survive not being part of Australia? How does Canada survive without taking orders from Washington?

Gee, I would hope that if you could read and understand the thread title, you would hopefully understand why we are not arguing about Australia and Canada.   :rolleyes:  Like you constantly arguing with people in the ranting thread. 

And as for European countries NOT in the EU, hmmm, oh difficult one.  Albania?  Is waiting to join.  Andorra?  Too small.  Belarus?  Has dictatorship and still linked to Russia.  Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Hoping to join when it sorts out its civil war stuff.   Iceland?  Waiting, and a little dependent on Norway.  Liechenstein?  See Andorra.  Macedonia and Moldova?  Waiting.  Norway?  Government wants, people don't.  Russia? Not likely. San Marino?  See Andorra and Liechenstein.  Serbia?  Working in it.  Swiss?  Government wants, people don't.  Turkey?  Wants to, but it's a difficult one.   Ukraine?  Linked to Russia.  Vatican City?  Has a special relationship through Italy. 

So, to point out your stupid 'let's argue about B' point.  Most of those countries want to join, or are developing politically and socially.  The ones on that list that would be most developed are Norway and Switzerland.  Thing is Norway and Switzerland both dominate the most expensive places to live in Europe and even the world. 

Seriously, travel a bit and learn some more geography.  Do a bit of interrailing around Europe, take some photos, eat a croissant, take in a bit of the European culture and you'll see why this is all nuts.  Seriously, it'll do you some good.   Give you a better perspective. 

Your would have a point if there were not significant Eurosceptic constituencies across Europe. Opinion there is not unified.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on December 13, 2019, 04:59:04 pm
Gee, geography not one of your strong subjects, is it?  You should travel more, it'll give you a better, more educated perspective. 
Gee, there are nations IN Europe that are developed and NOT part of the EU,

Gee, how does New Zealand survive not being part of Australia? How does Canada survive without taking orders from Washington?

Gee, I would hope that if you could read and understand the thread title, you would hopefully understand why we are not arguing about Australia and Canada.   :rolleyes:  Like you constantly arguing with people in the ranting thread. 

And as for European countries NOT in the EU, hmmm, oh difficult one.  Albania?  Is waiting to join.  Andorra?  Too small.  Belarus?  Has dictatorship and still linked to Russia.  Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Hoping to join when it sorts out its civil war stuff.   Iceland?  Waiting, and a little dependent on Norway.  Liechenstein?  See Andorra.  Macedonia and Moldova?  Waiting.  Norway?  Government wants, people don't.  Russia? Not likely. San Marino?  See Andorra and Liechenstein.  Serbia?  Working in it.  Swiss?  Government wants, people don't.  Turkey?  Wants to, but it's a difficult one.   Ukraine?  Linked to Russia.  Vatican City?  Has a special relationship through Italy. 

So, to point out your stupid 'let's argue about B' point.  Most of those countries want to join, or are developing politically and socially.  The ones on that list that would be most developed are Norway and Switzerland.  Thing is Norway and Switzerland both dominate the most expensive places to live in Europe and even the world. 

Seriously, travel a bit and learn some more geography.  Do a bit of interrailing around Europe, take some photos, eat a croissant, take in a bit of the European culture and you'll see why this is all nuts.  Seriously, it'll do you some good.   Give you a better perspective. 

Your would have a point if there were not significant Eurosceptic constituencies across Europe. Opinion there is not unified.

Gee, there are nations IN Europe that are developed and NOT part of the EU,

You said about the non-members.  You even bolded it.  Don't move your goalposts with 'eurosceptic members' now. 
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: oglop on December 13, 2019, 07:07:00 pm
Quote
   
i guess it pays to flat-out lie, mislead the public whenever possible through fake news and advertisements, and only take part in interviews where you know you won't be scrutinised. apparently the public doesnt give a shit about any of this 

How do they know he lied about his election promises when he's not even in power yet? But anyway we all know this election wasn 't about numbers of nurses and hospitals.
Take your pick
https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

Plus this
www.metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/amp/

Yes but surely they can only say for certain that he lied in his election promises if the things aren't done or in the planning stage when he leaves?
well, of course. but it seems like he was backtracking a bit on the nurses thing already - and got caught out on the hospitals bit, too. but i agree, you can't really judge about those things until they're proven to be false. so i'll naturally reserve judgement until then. that's only fair.

i was more referring to the bare-faced lies spread all throughout the campaign by boris (and the tories in general). that website has sources linked to it! not to mention the scandal with his (most recent) secret mistress, whatever her name was. didn't boris also dodge a question about how many kids he has? ugh. also lying to the queen
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: NorthStar on December 13, 2019, 07:18:35 pm
Gee, geography not one of your strong subjects, is it?  You should travel more, it'll give you a better, more educated perspective. 
Gee, there are nations IN Europe that are developed and NOT part of the EU,

Gee, how does New Zealand survive not being part of Australia? How does Canada survive without taking orders from Washington?

They all must be racist...the answer to most things.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Cohort 2019 on December 14, 2019, 03:45:36 am

(https://i2-prod.examinerlive.co.uk/incoming/article17399062.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/1_Screen-Shot-2019-12-11-at-075630.jpg)
The smears and the (as above) ridiculous stories about Boris 'hiding' in a fridge,

I agree wholeheartedly it was he most ridiculous moment in Boris's campaign. :azn:

https://youtu.be/Lp9XoiFbZcI?t=39
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Cohort 2019 on December 14, 2019, 03:57:58 am
the working class voted

(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/bb8fa67e-a16c-43a9-8dd7-325f52434910/d9rbu83-c9ae8ebd-59c4-4d8b-87dc-8e91bca03a52.png/v1/fill/w_686,h_915,q_80,strp/victory_to_communism_by_party9999999_d9rbu83-fullview.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9OTE1IiwicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvYmI4ZmE2N2UtYTE2Yy00M2E5LThkZDctMzI1ZjUyNDM0OTEwXC9kOXJidTgzLWM5YWU4ZWJkLTU5YzQtNGQ4Yi04N2RjLThlOTFiY2EwM2E1Mi5wbmciLCJ3aWR0aCI6Ijw9Njg2In1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmltYWdlLm9wZXJhdGlvbnMiXX0.ULgvB1So2NBzlevjOyExMvOf7snI1I5kz1bMRzJJMSg)
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: SPQR on December 14, 2019, 07:38:09 am
What does this vulgar, stupid image have to do with the thread?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Cohort 2019 on December 14, 2019, 09:28:00 am
As far as I am concerned, the only winner here is mother Russia.
the working class voted

colburnn is right. Working class, xenophobic voters have won, but we've all lost.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZUdiXOG2ZI
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: NorthStar on December 14, 2019, 09:52:29 am
Or, perhaps folks want to keep England for the English...vs living under the umbrella of globalism?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: fka on December 14, 2019, 10:15:51 am
"The working class have voted" for a coterie of Etonian quasi-aristocrats, sitting on massive piles of inherited wealth, much of which they hide in offshore tax shelters via their connections to the transnational financial elite, and whose Conservative party exists primarily to protect their privilege and advance their class interests. Congratulations!
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on December 14, 2019, 10:27:45 am
But get Brexit done!

That way, the Etonians and their international counterparts will magically trickle down their inherited wealth to those that have been deprived of livelihoods, oppportunities and social services...right after they buy more public assets for pennies to the pound and rent them back to the public at 10X the price.

At least it’ll keep the foreigners out...until their Etonian overlords and their billionaire friends decide they want cheaper labour...which will be at the first opportunity.

Gosh we are so fecked.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: oglop on December 14, 2019, 11:31:42 am
my dad and his friends have had recent complaints about hospitals, slow broadband and the cost of train tickets. but they refuse to vote for labour because "socialism is bad!!". when i tried to point out that free healthcare, nationalised railways and broadband were....socialist policies, their only response was something like, "but corbyn is a nutter". it's infuriating. people got the govt they deserve
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: shanebarry1986 on December 14, 2019, 02:07:08 pm
free healthcare

So you don't pay the doctors? Steal the medical supplies and devices?

If "free healthcare" means taxpayers are forced to pay for it regardless of how wasteful and inefficient it is, can we do the same for the military? The USA doesn't have a military industrial complex, it has free military! They don't spend ONE TRILLION dollars per year incarcerating people, many for non violent "crimes", they have free prison!
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: oglop on December 14, 2019, 02:37:33 pm
what are you talking about?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on December 15, 2019, 01:15:48 pm
Why am I not surprised that a leftist think government health care is "free"?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: oglop on December 15, 2019, 02:58:50 pm
jesus christ. i could have said, "health care that of course we all pay tax for but if you go to the hospital and want some treatment you don't have to pay anything extra". but of course, everyone knows what i meant by "free healthcare"

let's just ban the word "free" altogether then, shall we? free school meals, free transport for the elderly, free schooling. nOnE oF tHaT iS ReAlLy FreE, YoU KnOw
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on December 15, 2019, 05:04:59 pm
The pedant safe expression is 'free at the point of entry' . The problem with health care that is free at the point of entry is that the following things are also free at the point of entry

Gastric by-pass operations
Cosmetic surgery, if you can convince them your big nose is causing psychological problems
Appointments discussing your big nose with a psychiatrist
Illegal immigrant healthcare
Tourist healthcare
Missed appointments
Treatments that are ignored and cause problems to re-occur.
Sick leave which is far above the average for the private sector
Crutches, wheelchairs, intontinence pants etc. that are purchased at way above the market rate.
Taxi service for drunks

Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: chimp on December 15, 2019, 05:47:31 pm
The pedant safe expression is 'free at the point of entry' . The problem with health care that is free at the point of entry is that the following things are also free at the point of entry

Gastric by-pass operations
Cosmetic surgery, if you can convince them your big nose is causing psychological problems
Appointments discussing your big nose with a psychiatrist
Illegal immigrant healthcare
Tourist healthcare
Missed appointments
Treatments that are ignored and cause problems to re-occur.
Sick leave which is far above the average for the private sector
Crutches, wheelchairs, intontinence pants etc. that are purchased at way above the market rate.
Taxi service for drunks



*Free at the point of use.

How much is being spent on these things that you disapprove of? (Numbers, boy, numbers).

Or is this one of tropes akin to "everyone is defrauding the benefits system" when the numbers put it at around 1% of the total budget?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on December 15, 2019, 05:50:20 pm
It’s always nice to make bold claims about systematic abuse without bothering to back it up with actual figures.

Conservative tactic 101
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on December 15, 2019, 06:45:55 pm
So which of those things do you think don't happen?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Cohort 2019 on December 15, 2019, 09:47:32 pm
USA BE BEST SOCIALIST MEDICARE!
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on December 16, 2019, 07:12:21 am
The pedant safe expression is 'free at the point of entry' . The problem with health care that is free at the point of entry is that the following things are also free at the point of entry

Gastric by-pass operations
Cosmetic surgery, if you can convince them your big nose is causing psychological problems
Appointments discussing your big nose with a psychiatrist
Illegal immigrant healthcare
Tourist healthcare
Missed appointments
Treatments that are ignored and cause problems to re-occur.
Sick leave which is far above the average for the private sector
Crutches, wheelchairs, intontinence pants etc. that are purchased at way above the market rate.
Taxi service for drunks

 :laugh:

Daily Mail tripe...

 :laugh:
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Colburnnn on December 16, 2019, 07:41:28 am
colburnn is right. Working class, xenophobic voters have won, but we've all lost.

Thanks, and yes I am right.

For the past 3 years, most of the left wingers out there have sneered at and looked down their noses at those who voted for Brexit. Calling those who you wish to convince, xenophobic, racist, bigoted, chavs is possibly the worst thing you could have done. Even after Labour got REKT most are still at it, like an ostrich with his head 2 feet down in the sand.

To win people over in this game, you have to listen to what they want. They told you, you didn't listen. Brexit may or may not be successful, but that is what the UK chose. You ignored them, and they told you to get f*****.

Yes, there are other factors at play, but first and foremost this was about Brexit. Boris with all of his flaws, loves the UK, and millions of other people do too. With the other side of the coin telling us that the UK is bad, worrying about which toilet someone in a dress can use, and walking down the street with dildos on their heads in front of kids. Boris is not, and thats what the UK (outside of metropolitan bubbles) wants. We want to worry about our communities not be told we are evil for doing so.

You can ignore those things if you want, its totally up to you. But all you are doing is hammering another nail in the Labour coffin.

The government works for the people, not the other way around. Anyone who forgets that will get a big old boot up the a***. Just like the utter rejection we saw on Thursday night.

We didn't lose. The people won. The UK won.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Cohort 2019 on December 16, 2019, 07:52:45 am
Mother Russia agrees!
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on December 16, 2019, 08:01:21 am
We didn't lose. The people won. The UK won.

The general public 'won' in the short term, but in the long term, we all lost.

Problem being, the general public are idiots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Iv7tEnTJQw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Iv7tEnTJQw)
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on December 16, 2019, 08:02:12 am
Don't call people out for the bigotry otherwise they might vote against their own interests, and the interests of their children and grandchildren!

The same people were dead quiet when windrush victims were being targeted up and down the country. They were dead quiet when Poles were being spat at in the street and told to go home. They are the first to tell victims of discrimination to "suck it up", they are the first to complain about English not being spoken in the street but they themselves got a grade E in their GCSE English, if they bothered to pass at all, they are the first to laugh and laugh the loudest when someone makes a bacon + muslims joke...but the moment you call them out for their racism/homphobia/islamophobia/antisemitism/xenophobia, all hell breaks loose and you are being unfair to them!

Oh well, congratulations...y ou handed the keys to the safe to the bankers and super capitalists, because someone called you out on your bigotry. You handed your pension, your job security, our schools, your hospitals, your police, your fire service, your military all to super capitalists on a silver platter...because you want to be able to say and do all the bigoted things you want without repercussions.

Oh well, congratulations! You won! Let's see where we are this time next year, and the year after that, and after that. 9 years of Tory rule so far have been nothing short of fantastic growth and improvements...righ t?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Colburnnn on December 16, 2019, 08:46:40 am
Hmmmm, how can I get it through to people that I think Brexit is a bad idea...

Hmmmmmmmmmm AH HAH!! I'll go on TV and tell those who want to leave that they are idiots!

*People tell you to get f***** in UK election*

''OMG such racist, bigots, f*** those people in small English towns''
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Colburnnn on December 16, 2019, 09:00:21 am
Don't call people out for the bigotry otherwise they might vote against their own interests, and the interests of their children and grandchildren!

The same people were dead quiet when windrush victims were being targeted up and down the country. They were dead quiet when Poles were being spat at in the street and told to go home. They are the first to tell victims of discrimination to "suck it up", they are the first to complain about English not being spoken in the street but they themselves got a grade E in their GCSE English, if they bothered to pass at all, they are the first to laugh and laugh the loudest when someone makes a bacon + muslims joke...but the moment you call them out for their racism/homphobia/islamophobia/antisemitism/xenophobia, all hell breaks loose and you are being unfair to them!

Oh well, congratulations...y ou handed the keys to the safe to the bankers and super capitalists, because someone called you out on your bigotry. You handed your pension, your job security, our schools, your hospitals, your police, your fire service, your military all to super capitalists on a silver platter...because you want to be able to say and do all the bigoted things you want without repercussions.

Oh well, congratulations! You won! Let's see where we are this time next year, and the year after that, and after that. 9 years of Tory rule so far have been nothing short of fantastic growth and improvements...righ t?

They decide what their interests are. Not you. Not the news. Not Channel 4 chat shows. Not Z-List celebs on Twitter. Them.

You seem to be truly against a Tory government. Then WHY are you not addressing the things that people care about? Why are you not having conversations with them about local projects, the changes in their communities, the obvious mass immigration and segregation that has occurred in these places. Why are you unwilling to have a conversation, not with people in the internet bubble, but on doorsteps? Perhaps you will hear things that you don't want to hear. The reality.

I think I know why. Because you have pushed the conversation into the ground, you've silenced them, you've slandered them, you treated them like dirt because they chose LEAVE and don't think the same way as you. They are screamed at by lunatics whenever they try and tell you whats wrong. You have taken their voice away.

They only way they can speak is with an X. And a slient 'get f*****' is just as powerful as a loud one.

Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on December 16, 2019, 09:20:36 am

They decide what their interests are. Not you. Not the news. Not Channel 4 chat shows. Not Z-List celebs on Twitter. Them.

You seem to be truly against a Tory government. Then WHY are you not addressing the things that people care about? Why are you not having conversations with them about local projects, the changes in their communities, the obvious mass immigration and segregation that has occurred in these places. Why are you unwilling to have a conversation, not with people in the internet bubble, but on doorsteps? Perhaps you will hear things that you don't want to hear. The reality.

I think I know why. Because you have pushed the conversation into the ground, you've silenced them, you've slandered them, you treated them like dirt because they chose LEAVE and don't think the same way as you. They are screamed at by lunatics whenever they try and tell you whats wrong. You have taken their voice away.

They only way they can speak is with an X. And a slient 'get f*****' is just as powerful as a loud one.



You have answered this question yourself.

These people decided to segregate themselves. They don't want to talk, they don't want to be engaged, they don't want to change. They have an idea in their minds and that's it, nothing will change it.

Interesting how you glossed over everything I posted and STILL expect me to pander to people who refuse to acknowledge my experience and existence. Welcome to BAME, LGBTQ, muslim, hundu and immigrant life in general in the UK. Suck all the discrimination up, but also suck up to those who discriminate against you...because that's what is expected of you. If these people are happy with the last 9 years of Tory rule, more power to them! They won, they get to lie in the bed they made for themselves.

As for me and other people who have spent our lives knowing what it means to be marginalised in Britain...yeah, sucking up to people who want nothing to do with us isn't an option. The projects are there for all to see. The changes are there for all to see. The opportunities for engagement are there for anyone who wants to take that first step...but little England has decided it likes being little.

Good luck working with the people who can't wait to start charging you £10 for a packet of paracetamol...becau se god forbid someone call you out on your bigotry!
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Colburnnn on December 16, 2019, 10:25:38 am

They decide what their interests are. Not you. Not the news. Not Channel 4 chat shows. Not Z-List celebs on Twitter. Them.

You seem to be truly against a Tory government. Then WHY are you not addressing the things that people care about? Why are you not having conversations with them about local projects, the changes in their communities, the obvious mass immigration and segregation that has occurred in these places. Why are you unwilling to have a conversation, not with people in the internet bubble, but on doorsteps? Perhaps you will hear things that you don't want to hear. The reality.

I think I know why. Because you have pushed the conversation into the ground, you've silenced them, you've slandered them, you treated them like dirt because they chose LEAVE and don't think the same way as you. They are screamed at by lunatics whenever they try and tell you whats wrong. You have taken their voice away.

They only way they can speak is with an X. And a slient 'get f*****' is just as powerful as a loud one.



You have answered this question yourself.

These people decided to segregate themselves. They don't want to talk, they don't want to be engaged, they don't want to change. They have an idea in their minds and that's it, nothing will change it.

Interesting how you glossed over everything I posted and STILL expect me to pander to people who refuse to acknowledge my experience and existence. Welcome to BAME, LGBTQ, muslim, hundu and immigrant life in general in the UK. Suck all the discrimination up, but also suck up to those who discriminate against you...because that's what is expected of you. If these people are happy with the last 9 years of Tory rule, more power to them! They won, they get to lie in the bed they made for themselves.

As for me and other people who have spent our lives knowing what it means to be marginalised in Britain...yeah, sucking up to people who want nothing to do with us isn't an option. The projects are there for all to see. The changes are there for all to see. The opportunities for engagement are there for anyone who wants to take that first step...but little England has decided it likes being little.

Good luck working with the people who can't wait to start charging you £10 for a packet of paracetamol...becau se god forbid someone call you out on your bigotry!

Little England IS England. It IS the UK. London is not. And that is what you cannot seem to understand. You are stuck on this multicultural obsession. Terry and Bob down the pub don't give two f**** about the colour of your skin, who you want to f*** at the weekend, where you take a dump, what country you are from, as long as you are sound to talk to, to work with, to play footie on sunday with. Thats what being British is all about.

Labour have got to drop this Identity politics and fast, because the UK (including MANY muslims, BAME, and LGBT people by the way) are sick to the back teeth of it and told you last week. Clear. As. Day. It is divisive and toxic.

Immigrants who come to the UK and actually attempt to become British assimilate just fine, they are the people who are welcomed into communities. But those who come to the UK, say how bad it is, how racist we all are, how much they want things to be like where they came from. Those are the people who have ruined it for the others.

As for the 10 quid paracetamol... The propaganda has clearly got to you.

Brexit is happening. And a shed load of BAME, Muslim, LGBT people voted for it. Not just the 'old racist whiteys'. The sooner you get used to it and accept this, the easier it will be for you.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on December 16, 2019, 11:11:22 am
Quote
Terry and Bob down the pub don't give two f**** about the colour of your skin, who you want to f*** at the weekend, where you take a dump, what country you are from

But Terry and Bob will be the first to call you a black c*nt, a p*ki, a bender a Polak, a ch*nk and all sorts of other derogatory names. They'll be the ones to chuck eggs at your door one week and spray paint it the next. These are real experiences that are recorded everyday in Britain.

Quote
Little England IS England. It IS the UK.

That's not what the Polls say. Nationalists now control Northern Ireland...guess why. The SNP hold 80% of seats in Scotland...guess why. Labour still holds Wales...guess why. Little England its literally England outside of the major cities, which have experienced flight from people who only want to be around those who look like them.

Quote
You are stuck on this multicultural obsession

Give it a rest. It's not an obsession...It is literally an existence. Britain is home to people of all colours, faiths, creeds, traditions, sexual orientation etc. One minute you claim it's not about multiculturalism, the next minute you're complaining there's too much focus on multiculturalism. Which is it? Your perpetual shifting of the goal sticks shows how confusing your point is.

Quote
Labour have got to drop this Identity politics

What is Brexit about again if not the ultimate case of identity politics? When has there ever been politics without identity?

Quote
Immigrants who come to the UK and actually attempt to become British assimilate just fine, they are the people who are welcomed into communities. But those who come to the UK, say how bad it is, how racist we all are, how much they want things to be like where they came from. Those are the people who have ruined it for the others.

What is your definition of 'assimilate' and 'attempt to become British'? Notice how your preference of immigrants is for those who keep their mouths shut and suck up all the muck...but if anyone dare speaks out there'll be hell to pay!
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Colburnnn on December 16, 2019, 11:43:58 am
Quote
Terry and Bob down the pub don't give two f**** about the colour of your skin, who you want to f*** at the weekend, where you take a dump, what country you are from

But Terry and Bob will be the first to call you a black c*nt, a p*ki, a bender a Polak, a ch*nk and all sorts of other derogatory names. They'll be the ones to chuck eggs at your door one week and spray paint it the next. These are real experiences that are recorded everyday in Britain.

Quote
Little England IS England. It IS the UK.

That's not what the Polls say. Nationalists now control Northern Ireland...guess why. The SNP hold 80% of seats in Scotland...guess why. Labour still holds Wales...guess why. Little England its literally England outside of the major cities, which have experienced flight from people who only want to be around those who look like them.

Quote
You are stuck on this multicultural obsession

Give it a rest. It's not an obsession...It is literally an existence. Britain is home to people of all colours, faiths, creeds, traditions, sexual orientation etc. One minute you claim it's not about multiculturalism, the next minute you're complaining there's too much focus on multiculturalism. Which is it? Your perpetual shifting of the goal sticks shows how confusing your point is.

Quote
Labour have got to drop this Identity politics

What is Brexit about again if not the ultimate case of identity politics? When has there ever been politics without identity?

Quote
Immigrants who come to the UK and actually attempt to become British assimilate just fine, they are the people who are welcomed into communities. But those who come to the UK, say how bad it is, how racist we all are, how much they want things to be like where they came from. Those are the people who have ruined it for the others.

What is your definition of 'assimilate' and 'attempt to become British'? Notice how your preference of immigrants is for those who keep their mouths shut and suck up all the muck...but if anyone dare speaks out there'll be hell to pay!


Are you British? Because if you were you would know that calling each other c*nts, p*kis, c*inks etc is a form of sussing you out, if you can take it and come up with an equally insulting comment back, you're in. If you start crying, get butthurt, you're out. A lot of what you call racism, isn't. How do you know Terry and Bob are going to egg your house? Isn't that racist? Just like Tariq and Iqbal are going to slice me to death for insulting Allah? Right? Your desire to paint 'Terrys and Bobs' as scumbags tells me enough about you think of the working class and English people. I thought people were to be judged on character not skin or ethnicity. Clearly not.

It is an obsession. You are right, Britain is filled with lots of different faiths, creeds, sexuality. And most of them are... thats right. British. The same. The same identity. Labour focuses on every single thing that can divide us. instead of SOMETHING that can unite us. It doesn't matter who you f*** be British. Where you used to live, be British, What religion you practice, be British. If you don't want to be or worse, if you don't like it, WHY do you freely choose, to live there? You have the democratic freedom to find a country you do like living in. Nationalism is going up, and it's great!

I would say I would attempt to integrate into local communities, knock on some doors and say hello, talk about the footy, go down the pub, walk your dog in the park and get chatting. The problem is, many (especially Muslim) communities stick together and divide themselves from natives. That is basically doing the same thing you accuse Little Englanders of doing (only wanting to live near someone who looks the same). There is a Indian family 3 doors down from me, think he does deliveries, white van man, got a pet shiba inu, walks up my road daily, stops and chats about Arsenal. He's part of the community. Used to live in Bradford but moved for work. Bloke is sound as a pound.

I'm working class and have had my fair share of s*** to deal with. Roll up your damn sleeves, work hard and you'll be respected for it. Whine, cry and be a victim and whatever your skin colour or decent people will tell you to get f*****. That's what being working class is all about. Labour forgot that and are not showing any signs of learning that lesson.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on December 16, 2019, 12:48:30 pm
The pedant safe expression is 'free at the point of entry' . The problem with health care that is free at the point of entry is that the following things are also free at the point of entry

Gastric by-pass operations
Cosmetic surgery, if you can convince them your big nose is causing psychological problems
Appointments discussing your big nose with a psychiatrist
Illegal immigrant healthcare
Tourist healthcare
Missed appointments
Treatments that are ignored and cause problems to re-occur.
Sick leave which is far above the average for the private sector
Crutches, wheelchairs, intontinence pants etc. that are purchased at way above the market rate.
Taxi service for drunks

 :laugh:

Daily Mail tripe...

 :laugh:

What kind of fairy tale world are you living in if you can't even agree that people will take advantage of a free (at the point of use) system? I never even said I don't agree with the NHS, I just pointed out there's lots of wastage. If you think that's a price worth paying fair enough, I might agree with you, but to not even accept that wastage as a fact is cloud cuckoo land.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on December 16, 2019, 01:12:44 pm
Are you British? Because if you were you would know that calling each other c*nts, p*kis, c*inks etc is a form of sussing you out, if you can take it and come up with an equally insulting comment back, you're in.

Is that an example of your 'fundamental British values'? Wanting to call people derogatory names just because you can? Obviously in your overly simplistic idea of what racism is (gee, I wonder why), you fail, or refuse to realise it goes beyond the name calling. I could waste my time and point out how much and how far beyond the name calling goes, but your only response would be to 'assimilate' and 'do it back'.

If you start crying, get butthurt, you're out. A lot of what you call racism, isn't. How do you know Terry and Bob are going to egg your house? Isn't that racist? Just like Tariq and Iqbal are going to slice me to death for insulting Allah? Right? Your desire to paint 'Terrys and Bobs' as scumbags tells me enough about you think of the working class and English people. I thought people were to be judged on character not skin or ethnicity. Clearly not.

Please, in your infinite wisdom and experience, tell us what racism is.

It is an obsession. You are right, Britain is filled with lots of different faiths, creeds, sexuality. And most of them are... thats right. British. The same. The same identity. Labour focuses on every single thing that can divide us. instead of SOMETHING that can unite us. It doesn't matter who you f*** be British. Where you used to live, be British, What religion you practice, be British. If you don't want to be or worse, if you don't like it, WHY do you freely choose, to live there? You have the democratic freedom to find a country you do like living in. Nationalism is going up, and it's great!

So, identity now matters? I thought you were saying we shouldn't focus on identity just a few posts ago. What about the Scots...should they stop calling themselves Scottish? Welsh...nah, feck your Welsh Identity. What about the Geordies? Mancs? Cockneys? Scousers? Yorkshiremen? Northerners? Southerners?Or are we giving special treatment to "approved identities" here?

Make up your mind...does identity matter or not?

I would say I would attempt to integrate into local communities, knock on some doors and say hello, talk about the footy, go down the pub, walk your dog in the park and get chatting. The problem is, many (especially Muslim) communities stick together and divide themselves from natives. That is basically doing the same thing you accuse Little Englanders of doing (only wanting to live near someone who looks the same). There is a Indian family 3 doors down from me, think he does deliveries, white van man, got a pet shiba inu, walks up my road daily, stops and chats about Arsenal. He's part of the community. Used to live in Bradford but moved for work. Bloke is sound as a pound.

So do you call your new Indian friend a p*ki to his face? If not, how do you think he would react if you did? Perhaps you should try it sometime and report back to us.

I'm working class and have had my fair share of s*** to deal with. Roll up your damn sleeves, work hard and you'll be respected for it. Whine, cry and be a victim and whatever your skin colour or decent people will tell you to get f*****. That's what being working class is all about. Labour forgot that and are not showing any signs of learning that lesson.

Ironic isn't it. Telling others to stop whining...while you whine about others allegedly whining.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on December 16, 2019, 01:14:53 pm
Oh well, congratulations...y ou handed the keys to the safe to the bankers and super capitalists, because someone called you out on your bigotry. You handed your pension, your job security, our schools, your hospitals, your police, your fire service, your military all to super capitalists on a silver platter
Wouldn't voting LibDem or non-Corbynite Eurosceptic Labour be handing the keys to either A) The same bankers and super capitalists, who find a way to profit no matter what or B) A different set of bankers and super capitalists, you know the ones that are all hyper-fanatical about the EU? Not to say that the Tories won't get wrapped up with bankers and super capitalists as you say, but outside of Labour winning and Corbyn turning his back on 70% of his supporters and being LabourLeave, I don't really see a scenario in which the banks and the super capitalists aren't told to take a hike.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Colburnnn on December 16, 2019, 01:54:07 pm
If identity politics is so important to you, why don't you get on board with being British? You didn't answer if you were British or not.

You seem to have misunderstood. I'm not whining, I'm explaining why you lost and why my country rejected socialism, mass uncontrolled immigration, being told how to think and SJW horses***.

Instead, you seem to be focused on the fact someone might call you a p***. It seems Labour are no longer interested in winning elections, playing the victim and scoring internet points is more of a priority.

Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: hangook77 on December 16, 2019, 02:18:30 pm
I think I saw lots of traditional labour voters (the blue collar working ones) were voting Conservative to get Brexit done.  Also they didn't like the urban elites and their "boutique" issues.  So, the Cons won well. 
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on December 16, 2019, 02:48:54 pm
If identity politics is so important to you, why don't you get on board with being British? You didn't answer if you were British or not.

What if I wasn't British? You want to tell me I don't understand being 'British' because you think I might not have the UK coat of arms on my passport? What does 'British' mean to you?

You seem to have misunderstood. I'm not whining, I'm explaining why you lost and why my country rejected socialism, mass uncontrolled immigration, being told how to think and SJW horses***.

'Your' country rejected socialism...while having free healthcare, free schools, a free fire service, free ambulance service and all the other things socialist countries tend to have. Don't worry, those things will slowly be stripped away and you'll have your capitalist utopia of paying a thousand quid each time you call the ambulance. How much is a train journey from London to Leeds again?

Speaking of socialist policies...How much is your water bill in Korea? No, not hot water...just water. How much do you pay for health care here in Korea? How much does it cost you to get to and from work? Perhaps you could enlighten us as to how much you paid when you obtained your university education back in 'your' country?

Ironic how you dislike 'socialism' so much despite having benefited handsomely from it huh?

Instead, you seem to be focused on the fact someone might call you a p***. It seems Labour are no longer interested in winning elections, playing the victim and scoring internet points is more of a priority.

Like I said earlier, the concept of racism and discrimination is way over what you're able or willing to comprehend. It is almost pointless discussing such things with you. You haven't told us if you call your Indian neighbour/friend a p*ki to his face. Do you? Would you like to? Why or why not?

What about teachers...should they be able to call their students n*gger? Should managers and supervisors be able to call their subordinates ch*nks, f*ggots, k*ke? I mean, you would just advise all those people to take it in as banter right? What if your child's Korean teacher called him/her a dumb half-breed...what would you tell your kid? Chin up son...it's only banter! Right?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Colburnnn on December 16, 2019, 03:12:35 pm
If identity politics is so important to you, why don't you get on board with being British? You didn't answer if you were British or not.

What if I wasn't British? You want to tell me I don't understand being 'British' because you think I might not have the UK coat of arms on my passport? What does 'British' mean to you?

You seem to have misunderstood. I'm not whining, I'm explaining why you lost and why my country rejected socialism, mass uncontrolled immigration, being told how to think and SJW horses***.

'Your' country rejected socialism...while having free healthcare, free schools, a free fire service, free ambulance service and all the other things socialist countries tend to have. Don't worry, those things will slowly be stripped away and you'll have your capitalist utopia of paying a thousand quid each time you call the ambulance. How much is a train journey from London to Leeds again?

Speaking of socialist policies...How much is your water bill in Korea? No, not hot water...just water. How much do you pay for health care here in Korea? How much does it cost you to get to and from work? Perhaps you could enlighten us as to how much you paid when you obtained your university education back in 'your' country?

Ironic how you dislike 'socialism' so much despite having benefited handsomely from it huh?

Instead, you seem to be focused on the fact someone might call you a p***. It seems Labour are no longer interested in winning elections, playing the victim and scoring internet points is more of a priority.

Like I said earlier, the concept of racism and discrimination is way over what you're able or willing to comprehend. It is almost pointless discussing such things with you. You haven't told us if you call your Indian neighbour/friend a p*ki to his face. Do you? Would you like to? Why or why not?

What about teachers...should they be able to call their students n*gger? Should managers and supervisors be able to call their subordinates ch*nks, f*ggots, k*ke? I mean, you would just advise all those people to take it in as banter right? What if your child's Korean teacher called him/her a dumb half-breed...what would you tell your kid? Chin up son...it's only banter! Right?

Well, someone who is 'born and bred' is going to understand British behaviour and culture more than an immigrant. Much like my wife knows a s*** load more than I do about Korean culture, because I'm an immigrant. No matter how long I lived here, I want Korea to stay Korea. If it became the UK, I may as well be in the UK.. Same with immigration to the UK.

I'm going to ASSUME you were in the UK from birth as you have been so vocal on this thread, but you seem to want to hide your nationality. I don't tend to poke my nose into American politics, as I'm not fully clued up. I only pay attention because the USA is the biggest country politically. But the rejection of Hilary was fairly similar to this.

Yes, it is 'My' country. I am British. Korea is not my country, I am not 'Korean' and I never will be.

We have a high rate of income tax, our services are taxpayer funded. They are not free. You understand this, right? I'm not sure you do... 'You will be paying thousands for calling an ambulance'?? C'mon bud. This is tin foil hat stuff.... Christ...

I think we are done here. On this thread anyway. Denial is not going to do you any favours. I merely informed you WHY you lost the election, drop the victim/oppressed mentality.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: belo horizonte on December 16, 2019, 03:18:53 pm
their only response was something like, "but corbyn is a nutter". it's infuriating. people got the govt they deserve

He is an absolute nutter. This clip has not aged well. The most worrying thing is that 32% of British people voted for him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FbWsINjpRY
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: McTinkle on December 16, 2019, 03:20:16 pm
Time to develop a bit of class consciousness. The tories are the party of upper class and money. if you own a load of stuff the tories will do well by you whilst making sure the rest of the public have just enough money and resources to keep the mechanisms of the economy turning. If you are working class (which given the nature of this site we all are) the tories will screw you. Either in a small way by not giving you back quite all of what you put in or by in a big way if you are vulnerable.

You can argue how much Labour represented the values of the working class but they were the party of the working class. The Tories did such a great job of poisoning public discourse that people have literally voted against their own interests.

Your enemies aren't immigrants, SJWs, people who live in cities, people who live in the country etc etc, It's those at the very top who through disaster capitalism are about to do very well out of a hard Brexit. They don't give a monkeys about the country which makes it ironic that the most ardent nationalists vote for them. Because it's never about "loving" their country, but hating other countries. Blind nationalism is toxic and its part of how fear and division keeps people at the top.

If you voted conservative and earn less than 80K+ you got played. You can complain all day that you couldn't vote for Labour for a thousand different reasons but take a step back and look at the big picture, you still got played.

But you do have to hand it to the conservatives, they are masters of getting power. Evil genius is still genius.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: L I on December 16, 2019, 04:44:12 pm
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1205368801438707713
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on December 16, 2019, 04:51:52 pm
I’d go one further and say those on £80k+ per year aren’t as safe as they think. I’d guesstimate the safety net in today’s and the future climate will be close to 7 figures in cash or assets.

After the super capitalists are done sucking the working class and social services dry...who will be next on their chopping block? Those comfortable blue voters in middle management positions would be my guess. Why continue to pay them £80k+ per year when someone in Vietnam plus AI software could do the same job more efficient, for less than half the price? Increase in profit margins while cutting costs...win-win, unless you’re the poor sod being laid off of course.

If our cousins across the pond are anything to go by, there are people living in their cars today who once earned 6 figure salaries just 10 years ago.

It’s sad that people don’t understand the gravity of what is about to happen in the UK over the course of the next decade. Even sadder still, those that will be doing the screwing will have their newly minted ‘blue’ voters euphorically chanting ‘we won’ in the street as their assets and services are stripped from them piece by piece.

Well played evil genius...well played.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: oglop on December 16, 2019, 05:09:58 pm
their only response was something like, "but corbyn is a nutter". it's infuriating. people got the govt they deserve

He is an absolute nutter. This clip has not aged well. The most worrying thing is that 32% of British people voted for him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FbWsINjpRY
aged like milk. hindsight is a nice thing though, isn't it? anyway, didn't chavez start off as a "champion for the poor" though? i don't know enough about it. but it's easy to take things out of context. anyway, he's just repeating the same ideals he always has. which of labour's policies didn't you like btw?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Cohort 2019 on December 16, 2019, 05:32:07 pm
Am I  the only one thinking we got played hard by Putin and a handful of Republican billionaires?

I remember a time when Nato and the EU were the no.1 power and encroaching on Russia's hemisphere and all of a sudden we're in this mess completely at the mercy of Putin, with his best mates dissing the EU.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on December 16, 2019, 05:32:29 pm
All these working class and middle class voters voting year after year for a party that's screwing them and never realising how terrible their lives are compared to before. The Tories must be evil geniuses indeed to have pulled off this mass halucination. You'd never have guessed it from listening to them
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on December 16, 2019, 05:44:33 pm
their only response was something like, "but corbyn is a nutter". it's infuriating. people got the govt they deserve

He is an absolute nutter. This clip has not aged well. The most worrying thing is that 32% of British people voted for him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FbWsINjpRY
aged like milk. hindsight is a nice thing though, isn't it?


Yes, who'd have guessed that a thirld world country trying to force hardline socialism on its people was going to end badly
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: belo horizonte on December 16, 2019, 06:32:06 pm
which of labour's policies didn't you like btw?

I can't get past the personalities.

Andrew Murray (Corbyn’s Special Advisor) – 40 years in the Communist Party of Great Britain, which he “left” in 2017, coincidentally the same year the Communist Party announced that they would not be fielding any candidates and would be supporting the Labour Party. Continues to write for the Morning Star.

Seumas Milne (Corbyn’s Director of Strategy and Communications) - openly voiced nostalgia for the “huge social benefits” enjoyed under Soviet communism in the USSR and Eastern Bloc.

John McDonnell (shadow chancellor) - waved a copy of Mao's Little Red Book in the House of Commons and quoted from it. Has also stated that he is a Marxist.

Diane Abbott (shadow home secretary) - said that Mao Zedong (a man who killed 45 million people) had done more good than bad.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on December 16, 2019, 06:55:39 pm
David Lammy saying jacob Rees Mogg was worse than Hitler.

Jess Phillips saying the mass rapes/sexual assaults in Cologne were like an average Saturday night in Birmingham
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: oglop on December 16, 2019, 07:09:47 pm
stoat: tbh that's one of peoples' main problems with him, isn't it? talking to/with/about people he probably 'shouldn't'. should have done a boris and just avoided all interviews, etc. it clearly works

belo horizonte: and mogg/gove/raab/cummings are so likeable?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on December 16, 2019, 07:17:40 pm
It's not about how likeable they are, it's what it shows about their politics.

Bo jo talking about letterboxes or jrm saying he was too smart to get caught in a fire don't do that
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: belo horizonte on December 16, 2019, 07:41:52 pm
belo horizonte: and mogg/gove/raab/cummings are so likeable?

Personally I like Mogg, but I can see why people wouldn't like him. I can't stand Gove, that man seems more slippery than an eel. Cummings looks a lot like old Tory home secretary Michael Howard - the type of person you wouldn't want to leave your kids with.

But on balance, as objectionable as some of those Tories may appear to be, they are not commies.

The electorate saw through Corbyn's platform, especially the northerners, who understand that nothing comes for free. Emily Thornberry has even been accused of calling nothern voters stupid. If true, then that shows the disgraceful contempt these champagne socialists have for the electorate.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on December 17, 2019, 05:43:52 am
Imagine this and still complaining about “champagne socialists”.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Cohort 2019 on December 17, 2019, 06:44:20 am
Worst thing: Cameron was the oddball kid and Boris was hugely popular at Eton.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: belo horizonte on December 17, 2019, 08:33:53 am
Imagine this and still complaining about “champagne socialists”.

Nice try but I think it's more about people not wanting the country to resemble Venezuela.

You're upset about communists not getting elected. That's exactly why you're called the loony left.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Colburnnn on December 17, 2019, 08:54:29 am
Am I  the only one thinking we got played hard by Putin and a handful of Republican billionaires?

I remember a time when Nato and the EU were the no.1 power and encroaching on Russia's hemisphere and all of a sudden we're in this mess completely at the mercy of Putin, with his best mates dissing the EU.

No you're not the only one, there are quite a few other deluded people who live in denial.

Instead of owning up to the fact that people preferred Trump to Hilary and Boris to Corbyn, insulting peoples intelligence and morals is not the right way to get people on your side and that most people are sick to the back teeth of people thinking they know better than them.

It's just easier to stomp your feet, scream at the sky and believe the Russia lies, that way you don't have to face up to reality.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: alexisalex on December 17, 2019, 09:24:23 am
Right hands up Oglop or Ronnie, which one of you is it (https://twitter.com/syhawkes/status/1205345627636486144)?  :wink:
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: oglop on December 17, 2019, 09:26:27 am
Is...is that..satire or not?
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: alexisalex on December 17, 2019, 09:30:36 am
Is...is that..satire or not?

Presumably not satire judging from the "not my Prime Minister" protests and the world is ending reaction to the election result.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: oglop on December 17, 2019, 09:57:29 am
let's just ask ronnie if he meant it to be satire or not when he comes along
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on December 17, 2019, 11:09:44 am
let's just ask ronnie if he meant it to be satire or not when he comes along

Seriously?  Do you really think I have a pinhead?  I have a full-sized head.  >:( waankers.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Cohort 2019 on December 17, 2019, 03:35:26 pm
It’s not just Johnson and Trump. British political parties are starting to look more American.

If you believe this wasn't carefully planned then ask yourself, isn't this the most wonderful Xmas present for ...?
Quote
For Conservatives, the party’s base is trending older and whiter... and is less likely... to have a college degree. This will ring a bell to observers of the Republican Party in recent years.
https://www.politico.eu/article/its-not-just-boris-johnson-and-donald-trump-british-political-parties-are-starting-to-look-more-american-uk-general-election/
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: chimp on December 17, 2019, 03:55:43 pm
So which of those things do you think don't happen?

They do happen.

Which ones happen to an extent that the NHS should be considered so beyond help that it is better off being scrapped? I asked for numbers but you seemed to bat it off.

I'm a dual US-UK citizen (to play that card) and I know both systems, seemingly unlike most of the tiresome boneheads on here. The NHS is generally fine if sometimes slow, the US is also fine if sometimes expensive and finnicky to get insurance payments out of (assuming you have good insurance).

Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on December 17, 2019, 06:18:42 pm
'If you have a health service that's free at the point of use, the following things will happen that result in wastage' .

Response.

You're a tory
That's rubbish made up by the Daily Mail
Without statistics you can't say anything
You want to scrap the NHS.

How about we all be adult about it, admit these things happen and discuss ways to cut down on NHS wastage while keeping its principles. Small charges for certain services could be one way.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Cohort 2019 on December 17, 2019, 07:32:59 pm
But then the Poles wouldn't stay and who's then to serve my coffee? A Romanian?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on December 17, 2019, 09:12:11 pm
'If you have a health service that's free at the point of use, the following things will happen that result in wastage' .

Response.

You're a tory
That's rubbish made up by the Daily Mail
Without statistics you can't say anything
You want to scrap the NHS.

How about we all be adult about it, admit these things happen and discuss ways to cut down on NHS wastage while keeping its principles. Small charges for certain services could be one way.

In plain English...”I refuse to discuss my claims in the appropriate context, and I sure as hell cant be bothered to back them up with verifiable information”
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Cohort 2019 on December 17, 2019, 09:20:22 pm
Exactly, them Romanian gypsies can't get my coffee right, I need Poles for that.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on December 17, 2019, 09:22:18 pm
'If you have a health service that's free at the point of use, the following things will happen that result in wastage' .

Response.

You're a tory
That's rubbish made up by the Daily Mail
Without statistics you can't say anything
You want to scrap the NHS.

How about we all be adult about it, admit these things happen and discuss ways to cut down on NHS wastage while keeping its principles. Small charges for certain services could be one way.

In plain English...”I refuse to discuss my claims in the appropriate context, and I sure as hell cant be bothered to back them up with verifiable information”

You're right about the second part anyway, not sure I get the first.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Cohort 2019 on December 18, 2019, 03:33:54 am
I don't think Brexit was about the NHS or its costs to OAPs.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on December 18, 2019, 07:45:57 am

You're right about the second part anyway, not sure I get the first.

"immigrants cause NHS wastage and it's a big problem"

Context: The Kings Fund estimates that health tourism costs the UK between “£60 million and £80 million per year. This compares to the annual NHS budget of £113 billion.”

So much for “health tourism” – it costs less than a tenth of one per cent of the total NHS budget. What about the general cost to the NHS of all migrants living in the UK?


(https://fullfact.org/media/uploads/why_is_the_nhs_getting_more_expensive_.png)

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/high-immigration-nhs-crisis

"Because the NHS is free at the point of use...wastage is a big problem"

Context: The NHS is the most efficient public health service in the world.

(https://www.commonwealthfund.org/sites/default/files/___media_images_publications_fund_report_2014_june_davis_mirror_2014_es1_for_web_h_511_w_740.jpg)
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Mr.DeMartino on December 18, 2019, 11:04:28 am
(https://www.commonwealthfund.org/sites/default/files/___media_images_publications_fund_report_2014_june_davis_mirror_2014_es1_for_web_h_511_w_740.jpg)

Looks great until you look at the final criteria "Healthy Lives" and see they have a rather dismal ranking, which in turn calls into question the entire system. "Healthy Lives" should be the most important criteria, no? If the system is achieving high rankings in all those other criteria but getting a dismal outcome in "Healthy Lives", then something is deeply wrong and in fact, there is some sort of inefficiency.

Poor outcomes for "Healthy Lives" would suggest that while the NHS might be more efficient at the point of access, the quality of care is leading to poorer health treatment, relatively, which in turn would mean more frequent use of the NHS.

Something doesn't add up here...
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: zola on December 18, 2019, 11:11:34 am
Isn't "Healthy Lives" about individual health choices like diet, exercise, smoking, alcohol consumption etc?

Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: oglop on December 18, 2019, 11:19:13 am
Isn't "Healthy Lives" about individual health choices like diet, exercise, smoking, alcohol consumption etc?


that's what i thought too. makes sense as the usa is last
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on December 18, 2019, 11:22:20 am
As usual DM...everyone says "A",  you reply with "squirrel!"

NHS ranking on:

Effective care - number 1
Safe care - number 1
Coordinated care - number 1
Patient centred care - number 1

Despite people in the UK having and living unhealthy lives...they have free "at the point of use" access to the number 1 healthcare system in the world. The UK healthcare system doesn't lead to unhealthy lives.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: McTinkle on December 18, 2019, 12:08:21 pm

Looks great until you look at the final criteria "Healthy Lives" and see they have a rather dismal ranking, which in turn calls into question the entire system. "Healthy Lives" should be the most important criteria, no? If the system is achieving high rankings in all those other criteria but getting a dismal outcome in "Healthy Lives", then something is deeply wrong and in fact, there is some sort of inefficiency.

Poor outcomes for "Healthy Lives" would suggest that while the NHS might be more efficient at the point of access, the quality of care is leading to poorer health treatment, relatively, which in turn would mean more frequent use of the NHS.

Something doesn't add up here...

That's quite some confirmation bias going on there champ. All the numbers don't agree with you so the one that does must be the most important. I'm thinking looking at the other countries results that it's a measure of healthy lifestyle. The NHS doesn't control the culture, how people work, how much money they make, what they eat and what they have access to eat. All factors that lead to a healthy lifestyle.

It could be that the NHS is so good at keeping people alive despite their unhealthy lives that there are more of them alive today. Without the raw data we cant read much further into it.

The biggest issue is the government deliberately underfunding it so they can claim its "unfit for purpose" and then sell it off to all their rich friends.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Ronnie Omelettes on December 18, 2019, 02:36:26 pm
As usual DM...everyone says "A",  you reply with "squirrel!"

NHS ranking on:

Effective care - number 1
Safe care - number 1
Coordinated care - number 1
Patient centred care - number 1

Despite people in the UK having and living unhealthy lives...they have free "at the point of use" access to the number 1 healthcare system in the world. The UK healthcare system doesn't lead to unhealthy lives.

Of course it is, Martin is just being his usual contrary self.  You say something like this and he just has to oppose it to make himself feel better. 


Looks great until you look at the final criteria "Healthy Lives" and see they have a rather dismal ranking, which in turn calls into question the entire system. "Healthy Lives" should be the most important criteria, no? If the system is achieving high rankings in all those other criteria but getting a dismal outcome in "Healthy Lives", then something is deeply wrong and in fact, there is some sort of inefficiency.

Poor outcomes for "Healthy Lives" would suggest that while the NHS might be more efficient at the point of access, the quality of care is leading to poorer health treatment, relatively, which in turn would mean more frequent use of the NHS.

Something doesn't add up here...

That's quite some confirmation bias going on there champ. All the numbers don't agree with you so the one that does must be the most important. I'm thinking looking at the other countries results that it's a measure of healthy lifestyle. The NHS doesn't control the culture, how people work, how much money they make, what they eat and what they have access to eat. All factors that lead to a healthy lifestyle.

It could be that the NHS is so good at keeping people alive despite their unhealthy lives that there are more of them alive today. Without the raw data we cant read much further into it.

The biggest issue is the government deliberately underfunding it so they can claim its "unfit for purpose" and then sell it off to all their rich friends.

Booyah!! Confirmation bias alert.  Wait, doesn't Martin usually wrongly accuse others of confirmation bias?  Of course, he's going to pick the one bit that might prove his point, whereas the rest of the info counters his contrary point of view.  Love it.   :-*
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Cohort 2019 on December 18, 2019, 10:57:50 pm
I'm finding it hard to believe that the NHS is better than the Swiss healthcare system.

Quote
Switzerland vs. Britain: Meaning of a Market
How does the cost-effectiveness of Britain's "socialized medicine" stack up against the competitive but heavily regulated private system of Switzerland?

Our pick: Switzerland, 3-2

AARON: Switzerland. It has better quality, and perhaps access, but those come at a higher cost. I’m willing to make that trade-off.

CRAIG: Britain. Switzerland’s system — privately funded with private insurers — is often held up as a bastion of competition. But it is not necessarily more of a market than Britain; it just hides the heavy hand of government a bit more. In reality, the insurance and provider market is heavily regulated.

The U.K. system is almost entirely publicly funded, but it has done a lot to try to increase the competition between facilities, which has increased the quality of service.

AUSTIN: Britain. It systematically incorporates cost effectiveness into coverage decisions.

ASHISH: Switzerland. These are two countries with high-performing health systems, but Switzerland has better access and quality, albeit at somewhat higher costs.

UWE: Switzerland. Switzerland has better facilities and speed of access to care.

btw:
Remain 114 (69.9%)
Leave       49 (30.1%)
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on December 19, 2019, 06:04:19 am
Those ads people giving personal opinions...versus research data from the commonwealth fund.

It’s ok to find it hard to believe that the UK has a better healthcare system than Switzerland...but it doesn’t change that fact.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: stoat on December 19, 2019, 08:02:03 am
Those ads people giving personal opinions...versus research data from the commonwealth fund.

It’s ok to find it hard to believe that the UK has a better healthcare system than Switzerland...but it doesn’t change that fact.

Wow, so as far as health is concerned, the tories have done a pretty good job over the last 10 years.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on December 20, 2019, 10:43:50 am

Wow, so as far as health is concerned, the tories have done a pretty good job over the last 10 years.

Figures from 2013...3 years into Tory rule and before that over a decade of labour rule and policies.

AFAIK we don't have updated results yet...maybe the NHS will still be no.1 in spite of a decade of Tory cuts and sabotage in the next round of figures.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: Cohort 2019 on December 20, 2019, 11:46:13 am
Those ads people giving personal opinions
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/09/18/upshot/best-health-care-system-country-bracket.html
SEPT. 18, 2017
Not just some people:

To select the winner of each matchup, we gathered a small judging panel, which includes us:

    Aaron Carroll, a health services researcher and professor of pediatrics at Indiana University School of Medicine
    Austin Frakt, director of the Partnered Evidence-Based Policy Resource Center at the V.A. Boston Healthcare System; associate professor with Boston University’s School of Public Health; and adjunct associate professor with the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health

and three economists and physician experts in health care systems:


    Craig Garthwaite, a health economist with Northwestern University’s Kellogg School of Management
    Uwe Reinhardt, a health economist with Princeton University’s Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs
    Ashish Jha, a physician with the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health and the director of the Harvard Global Health Institute

A summary of our worldviews on health care is at bottom.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: kyndo on December 20, 2019, 12:13:49 pm
This is exactly the same as assembling a crack team of doctors, nurses, and health professionals to discuss the dangers of vaccinations, and why they should be banned etc etc.
   Quacks come in all flavours.
Title: Re: Waygook's Unofficial 2nd Brexit Vote (The People's Vote)
Post by: waygo0k on December 20, 2019, 12:33:29 pm

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/09/18/upshot/best-health-care-system-country-bracket.html
SEPT. 18, 2017
Not just some people:

To select the winner of each matchup, we gathered a small judging panel, which includes us:

    Aaron Carroll, a health services researcher and professor of pediatrics at Indiana University School of Medicine
    Austin Frakt, director of the Partnered Evidence-Based Policy Resource Center at the V.A. Boston Healthcare System; associate professor with Boston University’s School of Public Health; and adjunct associate professor with the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health

and three economists and physician experts in health care systems:


    Craig Garthwaite, a health economist with Northwestern University’s Kellogg School of Management
    Uwe Reinhardt, a health economist with Princeton University’s Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs
    Ashish Jha, a physician with the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health and the director of the Harvard Global Health Institute

A summary of our worldviews on health care is at bottom.

Again, those are personal opinions.

The figures from 2017 show the UK's healthcare system is still ranked no.1 in the world. In fact, it outperforms the Swiss system in every metric bar one.

https://interactives.commonwealthfund.org/2017/july/mirror-mirror/