August 22, 2018, 09:34:14 AM


Author Topic: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.  (Read 746808 times)

Offline Pennypie

  • Expert Waygook
  • ****
  • Posts: 864
  • Gender: Female
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #5300 on: May 08, 2018, 03:16:17 PM »
Until someone manages to make Korea understand that Hangul isn't good for anything but Korean, they will continue to use it as a teaching aid for English which will lead all Korean students to base their pronunciation of English upon it.

Every breakthrough i make with kids regarding pronunciation is destroyed within a week by a (useless) Korean teacher using Hangul to teach pronunciation of the alphabet.  Pock light op you marder pocker. 

Why is this still a thing?

Sorry but why is it such a big deal?

These kids are never going to sound like a native speaker. They aren't native speakers.

but showing the kids the pronunciation in their own language helps them when they are first learning. It gives them something to relate to .

It also helps lower level kids to participate when they would otherwise have no chance.

I know when I first arrived I learned Hangul using English pronunciation guides.

Are you saying you didn't? You learned using only Hangul and sounds?

For beginners it is a good thing. It's another thing when it is promoted across all levels of English learning. Can't really say they're learning "proper" English otherwise. If they have their own pronunciations for well-established English words, it will make communication with native speakers more difficult than if they knew the actual pronunciation.

S
Yeah I know what you're saying.

 It isn't promoted officially though. None of the textbooks have Korean pronunciations in them (that I know of). If they learn it it's because the teachers are helping them. I rarely see Hangul used in English class unless it's a worksheet or written by the teacher to help lower level students.
 I just don't think we can discount it entirely as it can be a useful tool if used correctly.

Also - to people saying that the Korean teachers aren't pronouncing things "correctly" so the students are learning the "wrong" way. - What is correct?

I just feel like, they are Korean...they are Asian...they aren't native speakers. They are never going to sound like native speakers. We shouldn't be discouraging students by saying their pronunciation is wrong.

Yes it needs to sound as close as possible and yes we need to guide them, but using an example from above I don't think a native English speaker is going to have a problem understanding 캣 instead of cat.

It's just something that bugs me.

I know you're all going to hit me with a 1000 reasons why I'm wrong.

I just think some of you go pretty hard on your coteachers/students pronunciation. Give them a break.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 03:21:24 PM by Pennypie »

Online CO2

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3576
  • Gender: Male
  • Tangled Up In 주
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #5301 on: May 08, 2018, 03:25:29 PM »
I know you're all going to hit me with a 1000 reasons why I'm wrong.
Here's one reason.


Offline AWVM_HXE

  • Waygookin
  • *
  • Posts: 22
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #5302 on: May 08, 2018, 06:08:07 PM »
Until someone manages to make Korea understand that Hangul isn't good for anything but Korean, they will continue to use it as a teaching aid for English which will lead all Korean students to base their pronunciation of English upon it.

Every breakthrough i make with kids regarding pronunciation is destroyed within a week by a (useless) Korean teacher using Hangul to teach pronunciation of the alphabet.  Pock light op you marder pocker. 

Why is this still a thing?

Sorry but why is it such a big deal?

These kids are never going to sound like a native speaker. They aren't native speakers.

but showing the kids the pronunciation in their own language helps them when they are first learning. It gives them something to relate to .

It also helps lower level kids to participate when they would otherwise have no chance.

I know when I first arrived I learned Hangul using English pronunciation guides.

Are you saying you didn't? You learned using only Hangul and sounds?

I'm sorry, are you saying that students should be learning English using hangul pronunciation? They shouldn't. Why on earth would you want students to learn English without being able to properly form and recognize phonemes? It seems to be a massive sticking point with people in this forum that their students cannot produce accurate language due to pronunciation problems, which are further reinforced by inaccurate drilling from KTs, anyway.

I can't imagine walking up to my students' parents and saying, "Your child was born in Russia and lives in (redacted); I'm going to speak to them using Cyrillic pronunciation, even though it doesn't match. It's fine, he's not a native speaker." For the record, many ELLs do achieve native-level fluency, and pronunciation is a huge part of that- as a confidence-building tool, if nothing else.

Moreover, it's my understanding that most East Asian ELLs worry about pronunciation the most. Using Hangul as a jumping-off point is fine for little ones, I guess, or casual study, but considering the amount of time and money the Korean government seems to pour into English education- lessening or not, as it may be- it seems really to do students a disservice.

Online sligo

  • Expert Waygook
  • ****
  • Posts: 798
  • Gender: Male
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #5303 on: May 08, 2018, 06:59:03 PM »
Until someone manages to make Korea understand that Hangul isn't good for anything but Korean, they will continue to use it as a teaching aid for English which will lead all Korean students to base their pronunciation of English upon it.

Every breakthrough i make with kids regarding pronunciation is destroyed within a week by a (useless) Korean teacher using Hangul to teach pronunciation of the alphabet.  Pock light op you marder pocker. 

Why is this still a thing?

Sorry but why is it such a big deal?

These kids are never going to sound like a native speaker. They aren't native speakers.

but showing the kids the pronunciation in their own language helps them when they are first learning. It gives them something to relate to .

It also helps lower level kids to participate when they would otherwise have no chance.

I know when I first arrived I learned Hangul using English pronunciation guides.

Are you saying you didn't? You learned using only Hangul and sounds?


I'm not saying that at all, what i am saying is that once the student has the sounds down, then hangul should be removed from the lessons.  The problem is, they think Hangul is so amazing, that the phonics taught with Hangul become stuck in, and as such English becomes so tightly linked to the Korean alphabet and its pronunciation rules, that the child has no chance to even sound remotely natural (no-one is aiming for native) in their speech.  so much so that the word "stripe" (1 syable) is elongated to 5!

Hangul should be used as a guide rather than an accurate idea of how each letter should sound.

Online oglop

  • Hero of Waygookistan
  • *****
  • Posts: 1327
  • Gender: Male
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #5304 on: May 08, 2018, 08:12:23 PM »

For beginners it is a good thing.
it's really not, especially for beginners

Offline AvecPommesFrites

  • Expert Waygook
  • ****
  • Posts: 554
  • Gender: Female
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #5305 on: May 09, 2018, 02:10:18 PM »
Somebody teach me how to do that thingy where you type something in blue and it goes to a web page or a picture. I need to up my waygook game. Feeling a bit second-string today looking back on some of the old threads from the greats of the bygone era. PM or reply on here if you can be arsed.
Going away golfing excitedly venturing to somewhere unknown carefree knowing my youthful demeanour is craving ketchup.

Offline ESLTurtle

  • Veteran
  • **
  • Posts: 179
  • Gender: Male
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #5306 on: May 09, 2018, 02:15:52 PM »
So I was in Gangnam last night and I met up with a colleague that's currently working for a private institution in Yamaguchi. One of the classes he teaches are upper-intermediate (based upon the CEFR framework), and he teaches them a TED-based curriculum. His students can barely produce basic, complete sentences. Any tips?  :rolleyes:




Offline Chinguetti

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2175
  • Gender: Female
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #5307 on: May 09, 2018, 02:37:24 PM »
Somebody teach me how to do that thingy where you type something in blue and it goes to a web page or a picture. I need to up my waygook game. Feeling a bit second-string today looking back on some of the old threads from the greats of the bygone era. PM or reply on here if you can be arsed.

You can click on the hyperlink button for the code or manually type it out, then fill in the blanks as needed. Whatever you type in between the code will show up as clickable blue text.

Offline AvecPommesFrites

  • Expert Waygook
  • ****
  • Posts: 554
  • Gender: Female
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #5308 on: May 09, 2018, 02:47:10 PM »
Somebody teach me how to do that thingy where you type something in blue and it goes to a web page or a picture. I need to up my waygook game. Feeling a bit second-string today looking back on some of the old threads from the greats of the bygone era. PM or reply on here if you can be arsed.

You can click on the hyperlink button for the code or manually type it out, then fill in the blanks as needed. Whatever you type in between the code will show up as clickable blue text.

Gamsamayo.

Me right now
Going away golfing excitedly venturing to somewhere unknown carefree knowing my youthful demeanour is craving ketchup.

Offline yirj17

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2782
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #5309 on: May 09, 2018, 02:55:23 PM »
I'm of the opinion that people are either [naturally] good at pronunciation or they're not (though, like with most skills, I do think that repeated exposure and practice can potentially lead to improvement).  I taught kids way out in the boonies where hagwons don't exist and [English speaking] foreigners are exceptionally rare.  I was pleasantly surprised at how [relatively, yes] good a lot of the kids' pronunciations were.  Many were able to follow and repeat pretty darn well my way of pronouncing things.  And yes, some students did have heavier Korean accents than others. 

Some languages do not Romanize well.  Korean is one of them.  Similarly, applying the Korean way of pronouncing things onto other languages such as English generally just does not yield good results.  I'm not opposed to struggling, low English level students using hangeul because I'd rather the students participate and feel included.  But once anyone gets past the basics (whether for English or Korean or whatever), I think it's more detrimental than beneficial to continue using one's native language as a crutch. 

Online Mister Tim

  • Hero of Waygookistan
  • *****
  • Posts: 1224
  • Gender: Male
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #5310 on: May 09, 2018, 03:00:13 PM »

Sorry but why is it such a big deal?

These kids are never going to sound like a native speaker. They aren't native speakers.

but showing the kids the pronunciation in their own language helps them when they are first learning. It gives them something to relate to .

It also helps lower level kids to participate when they would otherwise have no chance.

I know when I first arrived I learned Hangul using English pronunciation guides.

Are you saying you didn't? You learned using only Hangul and sounds?


The difference there is there aren't any sounds in Korean that can't be represented with the Roman alphabet, whereas there are sounds in English that can't be represented with Hangul. It's fine to use Hangul as a reference to show them how to pronounce their corresponding English sounds, but for those sounds for where there is no Hangul equivalent, it's doing the students a disservice to continue to rely on Hangul for phonetic representation. If they want to use ㅋ to teach the "k" sound, fine, but using ㅍ to teach "f" is... less fine. Especially if it's drilled and/or used regularly.

It's probably also worth making the distinction between learning pronunciation at the beginning of a course, and pronunciation guides in subsequent chapters. It's probably common enough for Korean courses for English speakers to use the roman alphabet in the chapter about pronunciation. After that, though, don't most decent Korean courses use Hangul exclusively? I might be misremembering, but I'm reasonably sure all the Korean books I have use only Hangul for the vocab lists, dialogues, activities, and whatnot; they don't have the romanizations for anything. I suppose a "Learn Korean Fast!" type book geared towards tourists might continue to rely on romanizations, but the pronunciation of the people who use them probably suffers accordingly, haha.

Of course, English spelling and pronunciation rules are considerably more complex than Korean. There's certainly much more involved than could be expected to be taught in a single chapter, as can be done with Korean pronunciation. I do understand how that might increase the helpfulness of pronunciation guides written in a learner's first language, though I'd prefer it's with the understanding that it's only an approximation, and I certainly don't think it'd be a good idea for a Korean teacher to drill pronunciation based on the Hangul rather than the English. I also understand that that isn't always avoidable, since the abilities of the teachers varies significantly, but hey. That's what we're here for.  ;D
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 03:02:31 PM by Mister Tim »

Offline Chinguetti

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2175
  • Gender: Female

Offline kyndo

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4375
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #5312 on: May 09, 2018, 03:15:24 PM »
Gamsamayo.
Me right now
The tool buttons are pretty cool, and you can do a lot of nifty things with them, but there are a few functions that you can't do using the buttons.
Alt text is a great example. To make little sentences that can only be seen by hovering mouse pointer on text (or picture), do the following (but with square brackets instead of parentheses):

(abbr=type the super secret alt text that you want to have appear here)enter the text or picture you want people to hover there mouse over here(/abbr)
     It should end up looking like this: enter the text or picture you want people to hover there mouse over here




Also, if you're the passive aggressive type, it might be nice that you can hide your incredibly witty insults by selecting the text, and colouring them beige. Just be aware that if anybody quotes you, your horrific insults will be generally visible, as quote box background colour is white.


Finally, here's a handy tool to avoid being a tool like CO2 (:P):
You can resize images by inserting desired pixel count in the insert image code, like so:
(img width=20)https://avatars3.githubusercontent.com/u/16444552?s=460&v=4(/img)

Which ends up like this:
Because every poster needs this particular emoticon:

« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 03:33:05 PM by kyndo »

Online CO2

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3576
  • Gender: Male
  • Tangled Up In 주
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #5313 on: May 09, 2018, 03:17:36 PM »
Finally, here's a handy tool to avoid being a tool like CO2 (:P):
You can resize images by inserting desired pixel count in the insert image code, like so:

Because every poster needs this particular emoticon:

Offline Pennypie

  • Expert Waygook
  • ****
  • Posts: 864
  • Gender: Female
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #5314 on: May 09, 2018, 03:31:37 PM »

Sorry but why is it such a big deal?

These kids are never going to sound like a native speaker. They aren't native speakers.

but showing the kids the pronunciation in their own language helps them when they are first learning. It gives them something to relate to .

It also helps lower level kids to participate when they would otherwise have no chance.

I know when I first arrived I learned Hangul using English pronunciation guides.

Are you saying you didn't? You learned using only Hangul and sounds?


The difference there is there aren't any sounds in Korean that can't be represented with the Roman alphabet, whereas there are sounds in English that can't be represented with Hangul. It's fine to use Hangul as a reference to show them how to pronounce their corresponding English sounds, but for those sounds for where there is no Hangul equivalent, it's doing the students a disservice to continue to rely on Hangul for phonetic representation. If they want to use ㅋ to teach the "k" sound, fine, but using ㅍ to teach "f" is... less fine. Especially if it's drilled and/or used regularly.

It's probably also worth making the distinction between learning pronunciation at the beginning of a course, and pronunciation guides in subsequent chapters. It's probably common enough for Korean courses for English speakers to use the roman alphabet in the chapter about pronunciation. After that, though, don't most decent Korean courses use Hangul exclusively? I might be misremembering, but I'm reasonably sure all the Korean books I have use only Hangul for the vocab lists, dialogues, activities, and whatnot; they don't have the romanizations for anything. I suppose a "Learn Korean Fast!" type book geared towards tourists might continue to rely on romanizations, but the pronunciation of the people who use them probably suffers accordingly, haha.

Of course, English spelling and pronunciation rules are considerably more complex than Korean. There's certainly much more involved than could be expected to be taught in a single chapter, as can be done with Korean pronunciation. I do understand how that might increase the helpfulness of pronunciation guides written in a learner's first language, though I'd prefer it's with the understanding that it's only an approximation, and I certainly don't think it'd be a good idea for a Korean teacher to drill pronunciation based on the Hangul rather than the English. I also understand that that isn't always avoidable, since the abilities of the teachers varies significantly, but hey. That's what we're here for.  ;D

I pretty much agree with everything you're saying here Mr.Tim.

I certainly don't think Hangul should be used all the time, just when needed and right at the start.

I just think that people here could be doing their students a disservice if we cause them to be too insecure about pronunciation (Not you!  :laugh:).

I've met many Koreans / Korean teachers who are scared to speak because they feel like their pronunciation is bad. Sometimes it is pretty bad but i still wish they'd try. I guess that's my main point. I sort of went off track though.

 Yes it's important, but sometimes close enough can be okay too.

I think because the OP I saw was talking about the alphabet so that's why I mentioned using Hangul.

Offline Pennypie

  • Expert Waygook
  • ****
  • Posts: 864
  • Gender: Female
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #5315 on: May 09, 2018, 03:32:21 PM »
Anyway...writing in the Friday ramblings thread makes me really really wish it was Friday.  :cry: :cry: :cry:

Online Mister Tim

  • Hero of Waygookistan
  • *****
  • Posts: 1224
  • Gender: Male
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #5316 on: May 09, 2018, 04:34:27 PM »

I've met many Koreans / Korean teachers who are scared to speak because they feel like their pronunciation is bad. Sometimes it is pretty bad but i still wish they'd try. I guess that's my main point. I sort of went off track though.

 Yes it's important, but sometimes close enough can be okay too.


I'm definitely with you there. When communicating in English is the end goal, heavily accented English is better than no English at all.

Many of us here have complained about Koreans not being able to understand our Korean if it isn't perfect even though we can understand their imperfect English, so we'd be being a bit hypocritical if we were to try to place overmuch importance on perfect pronunciation. More often than not, close enough is good enough.

I also couldn't possibly agree any harder about wishing my students would just try. My classroom has five rules, which I teach/review at the beginning of every semester:

1) No sleeping.
2) No talking when the teacher is talking.
3) Always bring your English book and a pencil or pen.
4) Be respectful to everyone.
5) Try your best. Mistakes are okay!

Sure, it's annoying when students don't follow rules 1 through 4, but it's 5 that I really wish they'd take to heart. They've just had the whole "perfection or nothing" mentality drilled into them for so long that it can be a real bear trying to help them understand that making mistakes will actually help them learn.

Online JNM

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3221
  • Gender: Male
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #5317 on: May 10, 2018, 06:37:57 AM »

Online CO2

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3576
  • Gender: Male
  • Tangled Up In 주
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #5318 on: May 10, 2018, 07:37:42 AM »
Chart of languages and countries.

http://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/world-of-languages.html
Why isn't England in the English section??? Is it the unlabeled purple section next to Malaysia?

Online JNM

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3221
  • Gender: Male
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #5319 on: May 10, 2018, 08:59:19 AM »
Chart of languages and countries.

http://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/world-of-languages.html
Why isn't England in the English section??? Is it the unlabeled purple section next to Malaysia?
Included in the UK section, I presume.