Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on April 18, 2018, 02:22:23 PMQuote from: Mister Tim on April 18, 2018, 02:19:47 PMQuote from: Mr.DeMartino on April 18, 2018, 02:07:17 PMLike seriously, how arrogant do you have to be to believe that after 1-2 years experience, that you will sound like a native speaker and people won't give you a blank stare? 95% of other immigrants to other countries can't pull that off. What makes you think you can? You know all those Pakistanis that immigrated to our countries when they were 14-45 and still speak with a bad accent? Guess what? That's you.Like seriously, how arrogant do you have to be to expect immigrants to speak your language perfectly? How arrogant do you have to be to shrug off someone's attempts at communication with you because they have a "bad accent?"Absolutely nobody here is saying they speak perfect, unaccented Korean, because that would be an absurd claim. They're just frustrated that, despite trying, they're still often met with blank stares or derision. They're frustrated that they aren't understood because they have an accent, despite it being perfectly normal for a foreigner to speak a new language with an accent.There might be a few idiots who expect perfection but most don't. Anyways, the point is that this is part of the immigrant experience. People are going to get frustrated. Some might nervously laugh. Maybe they aren't understood because the person can't understand them.I think what people are getting at is that perhaps it isn't part of some overarching "Immigrant Experience" that all immigrants everywhere face.Yes, learning a new language is difficult, and most adult learners will never be able to speak perfect, unaccented new languages. The point being argued here is that, compared to other nationalities/languages, Koreans seem to be either less willing or less able to communicate with non-native speakers. (They aren't alone in having such a stereotype, if what people say about the French is true . )I can't speak for everyone here complaining about it, of course, but my experience with trying to use different languages with native speakers seems to corroborate the idea. I was an Arabic linguist in the Navy, so I can at very least say I didn't have similar problems with Arabic speakers I met from Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Bahrain, or the UAE (though I did meet one dickhead from Sudan who gave me shit for making mistakes, haha). I didn't get blank stares or giggles at the Syrian restaurant in Manama, or the Egyptian hooka bar in Dubai. I also made the unfortunate decision to study and get my degree in Spanish (now there's a useful degree!), and again, I didn't have any trouble trying to communicate with native-speakers from a number of different countries. Compared to Spanish and Arabic speakers, though, I've had a much higher percentage of attempted interactions in Korean go south. That's not to say it always goes poorly, or even that it usually does. Many Koreans are wonderfully helpful, and often super stoked that we're even trying. It's just that, compared to my interactions with speakers of other languages in and from other countries, they're more likely to just give a blank stare, be dismissive, or flat out laugh at me.Of course, Spanish speakers are probably much more likely to have heard their fair share of Spanish being butchered than Koreans in similar situation. To his credit, Basedcowboy did point that out as a possible reason, and I'm inclined to believe him. I suspect that as more immigrants come to Korea and non-natives trying to speak Korean become less of a novelty, this frustration will become a bit less prominent. However, that doesn't make it any less frustrating for people now, nor does it lessen their experience any.
Quote from: Mister Tim on April 18, 2018, 02:19:47 PMQuote from: Mr.DeMartino on April 18, 2018, 02:07:17 PMLike seriously, how arrogant do you have to be to believe that after 1-2 years experience, that you will sound like a native speaker and people won't give you a blank stare? 95% of other immigrants to other countries can't pull that off. What makes you think you can? You know all those Pakistanis that immigrated to our countries when they were 14-45 and still speak with a bad accent? Guess what? That's you.Like seriously, how arrogant do you have to be to expect immigrants to speak your language perfectly? How arrogant do you have to be to shrug off someone's attempts at communication with you because they have a "bad accent?"Absolutely nobody here is saying they speak perfect, unaccented Korean, because that would be an absurd claim. They're just frustrated that, despite trying, they're still often met with blank stares or derision. They're frustrated that they aren't understood because they have an accent, despite it being perfectly normal for a foreigner to speak a new language with an accent.There might be a few idiots who expect perfection but most don't. Anyways, the point is that this is part of the immigrant experience. People are going to get frustrated. Some might nervously laugh. Maybe they aren't understood because the person can't understand them.
Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on April 18, 2018, 02:07:17 PMLike seriously, how arrogant do you have to be to believe that after 1-2 years experience, that you will sound like a native speaker and people won't give you a blank stare? 95% of other immigrants to other countries can't pull that off. What makes you think you can? You know all those Pakistanis that immigrated to our countries when they were 14-45 and still speak with a bad accent? Guess what? That's you.Like seriously, how arrogant do you have to be to expect immigrants to speak your language perfectly? How arrogant do you have to be to shrug off someone's attempts at communication with you because they have a "bad accent?"Absolutely nobody here is saying they speak perfect, unaccented Korean, because that would be an absurd claim. They're just frustrated that, despite trying, they're still often met with blank stares or derision. They're frustrated that they aren't understood because they have an accent, despite it being perfectly normal for a foreigner to speak a new language with an accent.
Like seriously, how arrogant do you have to be to believe that after 1-2 years experience, that you will sound like a native speaker and people won't give you a blank stare? 95% of other immigrants to other countries can't pull that off. What makes you think you can? You know all those Pakistanis that immigrated to our countries when they were 14-45 and still speak with a bad accent? Guess what? That's you.
Of course, Spanish speakers are probably much more likely to have heard their fair share of Spanish being butchered than Koreans in similar situation. To his credit, Basedcowboy did point that out as a possible reason, and I'm inclined to believe him. I suspect that as more immigrants come to Korea and non-natives trying to speak Korean become less of a novelty, this frustration will become a bit less prominent. However, that doesn't make it any less frustrating for people now, nor does it lessen their experience any.
Australian English Colombian SpanishMorrocan ArabicQuebec FrenchSpeaking global languages, we are used to hearing different regional dialects and accents from 2nd language users.Koreans don’t hear this regularly, and make a big deal about subtle differences between Seoul and Busan.
Quote from: JNM on April 18, 2018, 03:12:02 PMAustralian English Colombian SpanishMorrocan ArabicQuebec FrenchSpeaking global languages, we are used to hearing different regional dialects and accents from 2nd language users.Koreans don’t hear this regularly, and make a big deal about subtle differences between Seoul and Busan.Yes, that has been acknowledged a few times, including in the quote you posted. However, just because there's a reason Koreans often have trouble understanding non-native speakers, doesn't make it any less frustrating for the non-native speakers who aren't being understood.
On a related tangent, just how different is the Jeju-doian dialect? What about the one in the far north in the PRoK? What about the Korean of Chinese-Koreans, or even American Koreans? Surely the average Korean must have heard those accents at least a few times in their lives? I'm just curious -- I'm not trying to take away from the (in my opinion) very valid points previous posters have made regarding more international languages.
DeMartino, fighting racist attitudes and summing up with a racist flourish of his own:You know all those Pakistanis that immigrated to our countries when they were 14-45 and still speak with a bad accent? Guess what? That's you.Bad accent? That's not too tolerant or accepting. Strong accent, I get. Distinctive? Sure. But bad? That's a pretty harsh and derogatory comment to direct towards a lot of Pakistanis. I'm not sure why it's ok to make a sweeping negative stereotype, but no doubt you'll tell me.
i've been asked by korean co-workers and korean friends a bunch of times over the years why i don't have more foreign (american, canadian, etc..) friends. i always say something vague like yeahhh we all have different schedules so it's really hard to make time to hang out, but this community is a perfect example of why i just do my own thing most of the time. there's a few people on here that would probably be really cool to have dinner or grab a beer with, but so many other people get into these games of 1-up's-manship or weird pissing contests.- What you don't understand is how Confuscianism has directly impacted Korea's economi....thanks, but i was asking if homeplus has reese cups.- Somebody is having trouble with the messaging system at their school - you can count on one of the super foreigners to swoop in and belittle them. ok sweet, we're all impressed you mastered the Cool Messenger service, but the person asking the question still needs to know how to inform their co-teacher they have a problem with their bank. - Or yeah, i want to be friends with the guy that brags about saving 9,000 won a month by not having a refrigerator in his apartment. that's not quirky or smart...its WEIRD. and my biggest pet peeve. it's when people leave those snarky back-handed compliments but they dress them up with their little emoticons ;) because they're so smart and nobody else can see they're just being obnoxious. i get that we're online and there's a certain level of anonymity that lets you do that with no consequences, but is that seriously how you talk to people in real life? acting like you're better than them or talking down to them? any normal adult can see what you're doing and it's so sad and lame. where i'm from, you would get away with doing that exactly one time. the second time you got cute and tried to talk sideways to somebody, you would get jammed up REAL quick. that's why i've been here for 8 or 9 years and hardly ever post. i just try and sift through all the bs and pick out cool teaching ideas or tips on how to make living in different country easier.
i've been asked by korean co-workers and korean friends a bunch of times over the years why i don't have more foreign (american, canadian, etc..) friends. i always say something vague like yeahhh we all have different schedules so it's really hard to make time to hang out, but this community is a perfect example of why i just do my own thing most of the time. there's a few people on here that would probably be really cool to have dinner or grab a beer with, but so many other people get into these games of 1-up's-manship or weird pissing contests....that's why i've been here for 8 or 9 years and hardly ever post. i just try and sift through all the bs and pick out cool teaching ideas or tips on how to make living in different country easier.
Quote from: apancoe on April 19, 2018, 08:36:41 AMi've been asked by korean co-workers and korean friends a bunch of times over the years why i don't have more foreign (american, canadian, etc..) friends. i always say something vague like yeahhh we all have different schedules so it's really hard to make time to hang out, but this community is a perfect example of why i just do my own thing most of the time. there's a few people on here that would probably be really cool to have dinner or grab a beer with, but so many other people get into these games of 1-up's-manship or weird pissing contests....that's why i've been here for 8 or 9 years and hardly ever post. i just try and sift through all the bs and pick out cool teaching ideas or tips on how to make living in different country easier.I assume only a minority of expats in Korea have signed up for this site, only a minority of those who have actually use it regularly, and only a minority of those who do are actually unpleasant. In a "squeaky wheel gets the grease" sort of way, it can be easy to see some of the people on this site and think "Man, expats in Korea are an irritating lot." However, I don't think it's really all that representative of expats here as a whole. Basically, not all teachers here are as unpleasant as I am, haha.
Quote from: Mister Tim on April 19, 2018, 09:52:19 AMQuote from: apancoe on April 19, 2018, 08:36:41 AMi've been asked by korean co-workers and korean friends a bunch of times over the years why i don't have more foreign (american, canadian, etc..) friends. i always say something vague like yeahhh we all have different schedules so it's really hard to make time to hang out, but this community is a perfect example of why i just do my own thing most of the time. there's a few people on here that would probably be really cool to have dinner or grab a beer with, but so many other people get into these games of 1-up's-manship or weird pissing contests....that's why i've been here for 8 or 9 years and hardly ever post. i just try and sift through all the bs and pick out cool teaching ideas or tips on how to make living in different country easier.I assume only a minority of expats in Korea have signed up for this site, only a minority of those who have actually use it regularly, and only a minority of those who do are actually unpleasant. In a "squeaky wheel gets the grease" sort of way, it can be easy to see some of the people on this site and think "Man, expats in Korea are an irritating lot." However, I don't think it's really all that representative of expats here as a whole. Basically, not all teachers here are as unpleasant as I am, haha.It takes a certain kind of person to fly halfway around the world to teach English to another culture. I have found that this leaves a lot of the knobheads behind, back in our home country. Of course there are some douches here, but for the most part, the friends I've made here have been the most amazing people I've ever met. Coming here takes a sense of adventure and an openness to new things, and those are very positive traits.
Could you just imagine a country of expats? Wouldn't be perfect, but it'd be pretty nice I'd say
Quote from: sligo on April 18, 2018, 02:13:55 PMQuote from: AvecPommesFrites on April 18, 2018, 01:57:44 PMY'all ever message someone a sarky 1 liner and get a 6 paragraph essay back in reply? Cheers for the laughs Martin. You kind of have to post it now, seriously, that is the law!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Go ahead. I don't give a crap.Avec PMs me out of the blue with some one-liner insult. Fired back with a few sentences as well as a few emojis. Whatever. All in good fun. Then she PMs me again. I'm a loser and blah blah blah. Kids stuff.Anyways, Avec what happened to your thread where you apologized to everyone? Did you forget the night that caused you to write that already? Antibiotics working so you're good to go out and party again? Come on, go all the way to Step 12. Remember that we deal with alcohol- cunning, baffling, powerful.
Quote from: AvecPommesFrites on April 18, 2018, 01:57:44 PMY'all ever message someone a sarky 1 liner and get a 6 paragraph essay back in reply? Cheers for the laughs Martin. You kind of have to post it now, seriously, that is the law!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Y'all ever message someone a sarky 1 liner and get a 6 paragraph essay back in reply? Cheers for the laughs Martin.
Quote from: JVPrice on April 19, 2018, 10:49:48 AM Could you just imagine a country of expats? Wouldn't be perfect, but it'd be pretty nice I'd sayThat's essentially how the US started out. Apparently once expats live somewhere long enough, they start to really dislike new expats coming along.
CO2 - i get what you're saying and i agree that being adventurous and open are positive traits. you're right about it taking a certain kind of person to leave their home country and do what we do, but i feel like that same point isn't always a positive one. in my own first hand experience here, i've met more than a few (i know the sample size is small) teachers that left their country not because they were full of wanderlust or adventure, but for bizarre or other weirdo creepy reasons. let's not act like every teacher came here out of their love for teaching or uniting the world through the English language.aren't you the dude that legit only got your TESOL and came to korea because you were following some random korean chick you worked with at a movie theatre in canada?? and then she shut you down at the airport the day you showed up? and aren't you the same dude that flew to indonesia to try and profess your love for ANOTHER chick but had everything backfire in your face again? how do you not read the signs and understand that maybe this isn't the smartest move to make, or maybe the chick isn't into you but doesn't know how to kindly tell you as much.you give these "updates" on yourself and i read them and i think...does this dude realize life isn't a rom-com movie? you always spin it so you end up being this lovable do-gooder who just can't seem to catch a break with love, but in reality, if i was a chick, i would be like this guy sounds like a psycho and i'm staying away from him. maybe in your retro-bob-dylan-wanna-be universe you think you come off as some kind of endearing hopeless romantic, but you don't man.i watched that youtube video you made where you sat down and talked about making changes with your life. i legit respected that because it was like that was the only time you stopped trying sooo hard and you were just being real and talking honestly.this website is entertaining enough to browse through because we have 6 hours a day to sit on our computers but you are a perfect example of why i usually just chill with my gf and why we keep our circle small.
Quote from: Mister Tim on April 19, 2018, 11:21:45 AMThat's essentially how the US started out. Apparently once expats live somewhere long enough, they start to really dislike new expats coming along.Is that before or after the Native Americans?
That's essentially how the US started out. Apparently once expats live somewhere long enough, they start to really dislike new expats coming along.
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Topic: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings. (Read 772367 times)
