March 25, 2019, 08:50:55 PM


Author Topic: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?  (Read 105287 times)

Offline Ronnie Omelettes

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #840 on: March 11, 2019, 09:17:07 AM »
Holland totally does rock, and not to take away from it's awesome rock... err... iness... but it does have a lot of natural advantages over Korea when it comes to cycling.

First off, it's flat as a board. There's a hill in Wageningen not to far from the university that can't be more than a couple dozen metres high, but all the locals refer to it as a mountain... in Korea they would be plunking rice fields on it.
   It's tradition of cycling is in part tied to the fact that much of the infrastructure predates automobiles: rather than building super highways through heritage sites, the government put in a lot of effort to prioritize bikes. Korea was basically razed to the ground, and were ruled by a dictatorship so it was a lot easier for the government here to just pave everything.

    Also, in the Netherlands, if you parked your car in the middle of a bike lane, it would be keyed to death, towed, keyed some more, and its owner fined all the way to bankruptcy. Which is as it should be.  >:(

I'd live in Giethoorn if I could.  no roads? 



in Scandinavia, you'll be getting a call for the police if your car is parked against the flow of traffic.  your car always has to be parked with the traffic flow.

Offline Cyanea

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #841 on: March 11, 2019, 04:59:06 PM »
South Korea was basically razed to the ground in the 50s and were ruled by a dictatorship, so it was a lot easier for the government here to just pave everything without really worrying too much about what the citizens wanted.

No longer a dictatorship but they're still doing it.  :sad:

Catch my drift?

Online Life Improvement

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #842 on: March 12, 2019, 04:52:10 AM »
Japan's air is much cleaner than Korea's. Could it be because they are further away from China?

I know a lot of people here have a hard on for hating Korea, but to deny China's big involvement of the pollution here is ignorant.

"Minister Cho Myung-rae told the National Assembly he believes North Korea is one of the many causes for fine dust coming into South Korea."

https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20190311008200325

"It is the first time for Seoul's Cabinet minister to officially blame North Korea for the problem of fine dust pollution in South Korea."

"The Chinese minister also said South Korean media somewhat exaggerated China's responsibility for fine dust."

Offline SanderB

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #843 on: March 12, 2019, 06:16:55 AM »
Tomorrow he's right. There is Yellow Dust passing over the DPRK. :police:
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Offline SanderB

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #844 on: March 12, 2019, 06:19:50 AM »
I'd live in Giethoorn if I could.  no roads? 

 ;D ;D It's just a dump with loads of Chinese tourists.
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Online kyndo

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #845 on: March 12, 2019, 07:24:57 AM »
I'd live in Giethoorn if I could.  no roads? 

 ;D ;D It's just a dump with loads of Chinese tourists.
Hey, get it while the getting's good!

Offline Ronnie Omelettes

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #846 on: March 12, 2019, 08:53:03 AM »


saturday was good so I hiked and cleaned with the windows opened.   :cheesy:

followed by...



on sunday...   :sad:

then yesterday...



raining and hiking... i almost cried as I've not seen rain here for months :cheesy:

and today...



crappy poo poo heck hole...

bumholes...

Online macteacher

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #847 on: March 12, 2019, 09:02:24 AM »
Japan's air is much cleaner than Korea's. Could it be because they are further away from China?

I know a lot of people here have a hard on for hating Korea, but to deny China's big involvement of the pollution here is ignorant.

"Minister Cho Myung-rae told the National Assembly he believes North Korea is one of the many causes for fine dust coming into South Korea."

https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20190311008200325

"It is the first time for Seoul's Cabinet minister to officially blame North Korea for the problem of fine dust pollution in South Korea."

"The Chinese minister also said South Korean media somewhat exaggerated China's responsibility for fine dust."

So now last week was due to North Korea? If that’s the case then where are all the “it’s simple wind patterns” people that were claiming it was obviously China?

Hopefully this type of back and forth finger waving will bring some more focus on local problems as people grow tired of questions rather than answers.


Online zola

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #848 on: March 12, 2019, 09:49:16 AM »
Japan's air is much cleaner than Korea's. Could it be because they are further away from China?

I know a lot of people here have a hard on for hating Korea, but to deny China's big involvement of the pollution here is ignorant.

"Minister Cho Myung-rae told the National Assembly he believes North Korea is one of the many causes for fine dust coming into South Korea."

https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20190311008200325

"It is the first time for Seoul's Cabinet minister to officially blame North Korea for the problem of fine dust pollution in South Korea."

"The Chinese minister also said South Korean media somewhat exaggerated China's responsibility for fine dust."

So now last week was due to North Korea? If that’s the case then where are all the “it’s simple wind patterns” people that were claiming it was obviously China?

Hopefully this type of back and forth finger waving will bring some more focus on local problems as people grow tired of questions rather than answers.
It's always been accepted that some of the pollution comes from the North. He's not stating anything new.
North Korea doesn't have anywhere near the industrial capacity or transport available to produce what we were hit with last week.
Kpip! - Martin 2018

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #849 on: March 12, 2019, 10:08:46 AM »


“It is the first time for Seoul's Cabinet minister to officially blame North Korea for the problem of fine dust pollution in South Korea.”

Straight from the article. So I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “always been accepted”.

Pollution and climate change is going to be the biggest/most complicated issue that humans have faced thus far, I don’t see the point of being an armchair expert.

Offline AvecPommesFrites

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #850 on: March 12, 2019, 10:30:58 AM »
The worse the air is the more money Samsung make. It's simple maths guys.



Can I refill your eggnog for you? Get you something to eat? Drive you out to the middle of nowhere and leave you for dead?

Online kyndo

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #851 on: March 12, 2019, 10:39:15 AM »
“It is the first time for Seoul's Cabinet minister to officially blame North Korea for the problem of fine dust pollution in South Korea.”
Straight from the article. So I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “always been accepted”.
Probably meant "has always been unofficially accepted"

Pollution and climate change is going to be the biggest/most complicated issue that humans have faced thus far, I don’t see the point of being an armchair expert.

Opinions are like... uh... well you know the expression.

Seems to me that they might occassionally be important (unless they're expressed on Youtube, Twitter, or the Waygook political thread). The more people talk about something, the more awereness of it is spread. That may even eventually lead to enough people giving a **** that something will get done about it.
And anyway, I'd much rather read bickering about global climate issues than of the relationship status of Hollywood wankers or whatever.  :undecided:
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 11:01:29 AM by kyndo »

Online zola

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #852 on: March 12, 2019, 10:45:44 AM »


“It is the first time for Seoul's Cabinet minister to officially blame North Korea for the problem of fine dust pollution in South Korea.”

Straight from the article. So I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “always been accepted”.

Pollution and climate change is going to be the biggest/most complicated issue that humans have faced thus far, I don’t see the point of being an armchair expert.

There have been like 3 or 4 studies done in the last 2 years, including the NASA one that is cited often. In all of the findings it was determined that a proportion of the "fine dust" originated in North Korea. Just because a cabinet member is finally saying something doesn't mean its a brand new finding. Government is always multiple steps behind science.

In South Korea, up to 20 percent of air pollutants are estimated to originate in the North, experts say. ...
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-pollution/north-koreas-push-to-use-more-coal-clouds-environmental-future-idUSKCN1PN01N

Kpip! - Martin 2018

Online macteacher

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #853 on: March 12, 2019, 11:17:29 AM »


“It is the first time for Seoul's Cabinet minister to officially blame North Korea for the problem of fine dust pollution in South Korea.”

Straight from the article. So I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “always been accepted”.

Pollution and climate change is going to be the biggest/most complicated issue that humans have faced thus far, I don’t see the point of being an armchair expert.

There have been like 3 or 4 studies done in the last 2 years, including the NASA one that is cited often. In all of the findings it was determined that a proportion of the "fine dust" originated in North Korea. Just because a cabinet member is finally saying something doesn't mean its a brand new finding. Government is always multiple steps behind science.

In South Korea, up to 20 percent of air pollutants are estimated to originate in the North, experts say. ...
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-pollution/north-koreas-push-to-use-more-coal-clouds-environmental-future-idUSKCN1PN01N

Not sure what point you’re getting to? These studies also point to much local pollution and I still have yet to see the government nor the populace take a serious stance on that.

Online Aristocrat

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #854 on: March 12, 2019, 11:36:24 AM »
Long term solution - Nuclear Energy (Simply not enough space to rely on solar, wind or hydroelectric)
                            - Form a NATO pack with as many first world nations and other Asian nations to gang up on China and
                              bring it to its knees with sanctions and embargoes. China's human rights and environmental violations
                              need to be stopped now.

Short term solution - Jack up the price of electricity. Generally, Koreans are massive energy guzzlers as there's little observable
                                consequence; it's really not f*ckin' necessary to have the aircon set to 30 degrees at this time of year!

Online zola

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #855 on: March 12, 2019, 11:39:56 AM »


“It is the first time for Seoul's Cabinet minister to officially blame North Korea for the problem of fine dust pollution in South Korea.”

Straight from the article. So I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “always been accepted”.

Pollution and climate change is going to be the biggest/most complicated issue that humans have faced thus far, I don’t see the point of being an armchair expert.

There have been like 3 or 4 studies done in the last 2 years, including the NASA one that is cited often. In all of the findings it was determined that a proportion of the "fine dust" originated in North Korea. Just because a cabinet member is finally saying something doesn't mean its a brand new finding. Government is always multiple steps behind science.

In South Korea, up to 20 percent of air pollutants are estimated to originate in the North, experts say. ...
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-pollution/north-koreas-push-to-use-more-coal-clouds-environmental-future-idUSKCN1PN01N

Not sure what point you’re getting to? These studies also point to much local pollution and I still have yet to see the government nor the populace take a serious stance on that.

I responded to your silly "Now they say it's coming from NK! last week you all said it was from China!", by saying most research has shown that some of it has been coming from North Korea all along, it's not some new massive breakthrough discovery. Reading the news stories over the past 5 years doesn't make me an armchair expert. But it seems to have made me more informed than you.

No one is claiming to be an expert. I'm certainly not. Is South Korea completely innocent in it's own air pollution? Of course not. But when we go from days ranging from 70-120, then suddenly shoots up to 200-250 over night, it's obvious there are major external contributors. It's not like on those days Korean factories are suddenly pumping out magnitudes more emissions. It's also easy to see that when the North east of China is bad and the wind is blowing this way, like clockwork in a a day or 2 we get hit with it. These are not coincidences.

Also, no one is arguing that Korea shouldn't do more to clean up their own air. But on days like we had last week, Korea could have shut down every factory, car, power station in the country and the air still would have been shite, because it was coming from China. They can pour billions of dollars into clean energy and if China isn't doing the same thing it will completely meaningless.
Kpip! - Martin 2018

Online macteacher

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #856 on: March 12, 2019, 12:08:12 PM »

I’ve seen the research, I know the stats about china and North Korea. It’s an issue that I’ve been following for years. Stop missreprenting what I’m saying. Never have I claimed that China or North Korea don’t have their part. All I’ve ever brought to the table is a discussion on the meta-narrative of the whole issue. Please re-read my posts from the past few pages. You’re creating a discussion that isn’t even there. What exactly do you know more than me?

You kind of are claiming to be an expert though. You’re talking about ‘coincindences’ and wind patterns. If you feel strongly enough to make difinite claims about how the global climate and pollution and energy usage works and how they interact full stop, then I think you are asserting that you have a professional opinion, no?

Online zola

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #857 on: March 12, 2019, 12:52:05 PM »

I’ve seen the research, I know the stats about china and North Korea. It’s an issue that I’ve been following for years. Stop missreprenting what I’m saying. Never have I claimed that China or North Korea don’t have their part. All I’ve ever brought to the table is a discussion on the meta-narrative of the whole issue. Please re-read my posts from the past few pages. You’re creating a discussion that isn’t even there. What exactly do you know more than me?

You kind of are claiming to be an expert though. You’re talking about ‘coincindences’ and wind patterns. If you feel strongly enough to make difinite claims about how the global climate and pollution and energy usage works and how they interact full stop, then I think you are asserting that you have a professional opinion, no?

Jeeesus. If you've seen everything and know it all then why are you here challenging it and acting indignant when people refer to it, like some sort of argumentative old lady? The meta-narrative is what it is. There aren't any wildly inaccurate proclamations going on.

Discussing a phenomena in it's basic terms isn't the sign of an expert for god's sake. Do you also get mad when people discuss issues in the Middle East because they aren't regional experts? If you feel that insecure making elementary cognitive connections, or feel uncomfortable being around those that do so, i don't know what to tell you. Looking at the direction the wind is coming from isn't some sort of esoteric science. Neither is seeing Shandong and Qingdao with readings on 300, while Seoul has 72. And then 2 days later Seoul having a level 240, even though there have been no dramatic events beyond a Nor-westerly.
Kpip! - Martin 2018

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #858 on: March 12, 2019, 01:08:31 PM »

I’ve seen the research, I know the stats about china and North Korea. It’s an issue that I’ve been following for years. Stop missreprenting what I’m saying. Never have I claimed that China or North Korea don’t have their part. All I’ve ever brought to the table is a discussion on the meta-narrative of the whole issue. Please re-read my posts from the past few pages. You’re creating a discussion that isn’t even there. What exactly do you know more than me?

You kind of are claiming to be an expert though. You’re talking about ‘coincindences’ and wind patterns. If you feel strongly enough to make difinite claims about how the global climate and pollution and energy usage works and how they interact full stop, then I think you are asserting that you have a professional opinion, no?

Jeeesus. If you've seen everything and know it all then why are you here challenging it and acting indignant when people refer to it, like some sort of argumentative old lady? The meta-narrative is what it is. There aren't any wildly inaccurate proclamations going on.

Discussing a phenomena in it's basic terms isn't the sign of an expert for god's sake. Do you also get mad when people discuss issues in the Middle East because they aren't regional experts? If you feel that insecure making elementary cognitive connections, or feel uncomfortable being around those that do so, i don't know what to tell you. Looking at the direction the wind is coming from isn't some sort of esoteric science. Neither is seeing Shandong and Qingdao with readings on 300, while Seoul has 72. And then 2 days later Seoul having a level 240, even though there have been no dramatic events beyond a Nor-westerly.

The only thing I’m challenging is the general narrative pushed by the korean media and often used on /r/korea and some posters here, and that is an overwhelming emphasis on China. This general issue of pollution/energy usage/climate change is one that is convoluted filled with so many disparate systems that are also connected in a multiplicity of ways, if it were so simple as ‘wind patterns’ then we’d be on our merry way of solving the ‘don’t reach the greater than 2 degree Celsius’ target.

It’s not hard to see that Seoul government has no real target (as of yet) on sustainability. They’re about to level down the main hill behind Itaewon to put up luxury apartments.

Of course you can have a populace that puts pressure on their representatives to put pressure on neighbors, but I have yet to see much change in the way Korea views its own backyard.

Nice ad-homs though  8)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 01:11:17 PM by macteacher »

Offline SanderB

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #859 on: March 12, 2019, 07:42:59 PM »


Good it cleared up. There's now yellow dust but it's cleaner than 'normal'. ;D
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