February 22, 2019, 12:07:38 PM


Author Topic: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?  (Read 97125 times)

Online Adel

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #580 on: May 23, 2018, 07:43:38 PM »
In a way it's a bit like the Trump presidency when eventually the abnormal becomes normalized.
I pity you guys.
For a long time I didn't think it would be possible to get out but I worked on a plan and it eventually paid off.
In fairness though I didn't realize how fucked up the situation was until after spending a few years back home I returned to Korea for a short holiday.
You really owe it to your kids to get out ASAP anyway you can.
If not, get as far south as possible. I noticed my mates place in Dadaepo a beach-side location in Busan, close to the ocean, wasn't too bad as far as air quality went.

donovan

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #581 on: May 24, 2018, 06:48:13 AM »
In a way it's a bit like the Trump presidency when eventually the abnormal becomes normalized.
I pity you guys.
For a long time I didn't think it would be possible to get out but I worked on a plan and it eventually paid off.
In fairness though I didn't realize how fucked up the situation was until after spending a few years back home I returned to Korea for a short holiday.
You really owe it to your kids to get out ASAP anyway you can.
If not, get as far south as possible. I noticed my mates place in Dadaepo a beach-side location in Busan, close to the ocean, wasn't too bad as far as air quality went.

Haha. I’m sure a lot of things are a bit like the Trump presidency in their own special way :wink:

My first thought upon reading your post: Man, he’s right. It’s super effed that that I’m still here and subjecting myself and my kid to this toxic environment.

Second thought: Oh, I think he just means the air. Yeah, that’s effed up too.

Care to share your escape route from the ROK now that you find yourself on gentler shores? I’m hatching up my own plan (can’t say too much while it’s in this critical phase, but it involves plane tickets and student debt), but could always use a plan B, which at this point is the status quo for me.

donovan

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #582 on: May 24, 2018, 01:45:40 PM »
"Number of newborns with birth defects on the rise in Korea, possibly due to air pollutants: study"

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20180523000276

I will start off by saying I don't have kids, and have no plans to with my wife.  My co-teacher, love her as I do, fusses so much over her son.  She wanted to buy a water machine for her house (we use Cuckoo) but didn't want to buy a Korean one as she thought they were dangerous, so was trying to order an American one.  Last week, she asked me about what bed I have as there was a spurious Korean article about a mattress that had some levels of radon coming out of it.  She really is in a tizz about protecting her son from any kind of real/imaginary problems.  We talk about the dust a lot, probably the only two teachers who pay really close attention to it, so I keep telling her to be worried about the dust but she (backed up my another mother teacher) should take it easy with everything else.

I'm sure with a lot of people having a kid gives one an unimpeachable excuse to indulge in obsessive compulsive behavior, but does your coteacher's kid have any allergies or other sensitivities that might be making her act that way? I agree with your attitude towards children in the abstract, but with my kid's eczema, it's hard not to feel a bit paranoid about what might be setting it off and to try to be super vigilant to control her exposure.

We all are exposed to so much these days not just in terms of pollution, but also from everyday products that in isolation don't contain enough toxins to really harm us, but in aggregate can really amount to hazardous amounts if one isn't careful (or even if one is).

donovan

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #583 on: May 24, 2018, 03:15:51 PM »
My wife is definitely more fastidious about a clean environment than I am. My daughter's skin seems to be getting better, and if it ever goes away completely I'm all set to ease up on some of the sanitation routines. Hopefully my wife will be willing to as well.

Online Thomas Mc

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #584 on: May 24, 2018, 05:47:52 PM »
I get concerned when I read news reports that fire fighters or people nearby the twin towers contracted cancer years after 911.

As bad as the dust flying through the air was it lasted only a single day. However in parts of Asia  you have regularly bad pollution all year round.

donovan

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #585 on: May 24, 2018, 06:42:08 PM »
Sure. That’s a terrible story and I hope they finally got the medical coverage their situation demanded, but hopefully whatever they were exposed to was something entirely unique to that situation.

Offline JNM

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #586 on: May 24, 2018, 06:59:55 PM »
"Number of newborns with birth defects on the rise in Korea, possibly due to air pollutants: study"

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20180523000276

I will start off by saying I don't have kids, and have no plans to with my wife.  My co-teacher, love her as I do, fusses so much over her son.  She wanted to buy a water machine for her house (we use Cuckoo) but didn't want to buy a Korean one as she thought they were dangerous, so was trying to order an American one.  Last week, she asked me about what bed I have as there was a spurious Korean article about a mattress that had some levels of radon coming out of it.  She really is in a tizz about protecting her son from any kind of real/imaginary problems.  We talk about the dust a lot, probably the only two teachers who pay really close attention to it, so I keep telling her to be worried about the dust but she (backed up my another mother teacher) should take it easy with everything else.

I'm sure with a lot of people having a kid gives one an unimpeachable excuse to indulge in obsessive compulsive behavior, but does your coteacher's kid have any allergies or other sensitivities that might be making her act that way? I agree with your attitude towards children in the abstract, but with my kid's eczema, it's hard not to feel a bit paranoid about what might be setting it off and to try to be super vigilant to control her exposure.

We all are exposed to so much these days not just in terms of pollution, but also from everyday products that in isolation don't contain enough toxins to really harm us, but in aggregate can really amount to hazardous amounts if one isn't careful (or even if one is).

Definitely, if I had a kid I'm sure I'd have the same kind of thinking.  I suppose I think about it more as my younger brother had a daughter and my brother-in-law also had a son around the same time (November last year) and it was interesting to see how the Brits and the Koreans did things.  As my Bil's wife had a C-section she stayed in a hospital for a week, and her son, was kept in a 'sanitised' room with a load of other babies, but no one other than the nurses or the mothers could go in and hold/see the babies.  We could see the baby through the glass at certain times.  Then there was two weeks in another hospital, but less sanitised.  Whenever we go around to see him at home, we have to sanitise our hands and everything is super clean.  It is, to me, fussy clean.  My brother's wife was out of hospital within two days, they went back home, and within a few days (my brother has a dog) my niece was lying on the carpet or in her bouncer with the dog walking around.  Nothing dangerous about it.  There was none of that fussing about sanitising things and it is a lot more relaxed.  Who knows who will have the stronger immune system when they grow up, as it is two children in two different countries.  Although, Korea has by far the worst breathable atmosphere out of the two, hence this thread.  Maybe I'm just a little old school.


Apples and oranges.

The NICU is not typical in the west... Nor is a 2 week hospital stay. Something else on that story!

Online Lazio

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #587 on: May 24, 2018, 07:24:01 PM »
I'm almost sure that wasn't NICU. They are not going to show babies through the window in NICU. They have more important things to worry about.
And that ''2 weeks in another hospital'' sound like a postnatal care facility where most mothers spend 2 weeks or so after giving birth. So this sounds like a regular birth procedure with no complications to me.

On a related note: According to my wife and many other Koreans that I spoke with; a newborn should not be taken outside for 3 months after birth and should only come in close contact with the immediate family during this time.
There is no doubt that a newborn and a mother is treated way more carefully here compared to the West.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 07:35:06 PM by Lazio »

Offline JNM

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #588 on: May 24, 2018, 08:12:27 PM »
I'm almost sure that wasn't NICU. They are not going to show babies through the window in NICU. They have more important things to worry about.
And that ''2 weeks in another hospital'' sound like a postnatal care facility where most mothers spend 2 weeks or so after giving birth. So this sounds like a regular birth procedure with no complications to me.

On a related note: According to my wife and many other Koreans that I spoke with; a newborn should not be taken outside for 3 months after birth and should only come in close contact with the immediate family during this time.
There is no doubt that a newborn and a mother is treated way more carefully here compared to the West.

I think I had the locations crossed when I read it.

Sorry.

- father of 5 Canadian-born kids

donovan

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #589 on: May 25, 2018, 06:09:48 AM »
Also worth noting, you can build up immunity toward substances that contain proteins that your immune system is built to recognize, but generally not against harsh industrial chemicals. Repeated exposure won’t make your body better equipped to deal with those in future exposures.

Offline hangook77

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #590 on: May 25, 2018, 09:41:20 AM »
I'm almost sure that wasn't NICU. They are not going to show babies through the window in NICU. They have more important things to worry about.
And that ''2 weeks in another hospital'' sound like a postnatal care facility where most mothers spend 2 weeks or so after giving birth. So this sounds like a regular birth procedure with no complications to me.

On a related note: According to my wife and many other Koreans that I spoke with; a newborn should not be taken outside for 3 months after birth and should only come in close contact with the immediate family during this time.
There is no doubt that a newborn and a mother is treated way more carefully here compared to the West.

Yep.  Both healthy babies and both on time. The first week was in the 산부인과 (maternity ward, is the best translation I get) in a private women's hospital, and when we visited I thought it was a really strange way to do things.  It was not a NICU, as there was no panic or worry in my in-laws family.  Even my brother in law was not allowed to hold my nephew for the first week.  Then the two weeks in the 조리원 (post-natal care centre).  All pricey and if you have money seems to be the way to do things here.

Korean health care is better than Canadian health care by far.  You have to pay a bit, but nothing crazy like in the USA.  I do know service is fast, no long waiting lines, or admission of less qualified doctors due to being desperate (doctor shortages).  No rationing of care where the really sick or really old get less priority.  (Though I am uncertain how the most recent Korean health care changes will affect things.)  Korea has the right mix of private and public keeping things competitive and under control.  Doctors are still incentivized to practice medicine for now. 

Offline JNM

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #591 on: May 25, 2018, 09:55:09 AM »
I'm almost sure that wasn't NICU. They are not going to show babies through the window in NICU. They have more important things to worry about.
And that ''2 weeks in another hospital'' sound like a postnatal care facility where most mothers spend 2 weeks or so after giving birth. So this sounds like a regular birth procedure with no complications to me.

On a related note: According to my wife and many other Koreans that I spoke with; a newborn should not be taken outside for 3 months after birth and should only come in close contact with the immediate family during this time.
There is no doubt that a newborn and a mother is treated way more carefully here compared to the West.

Yep.  Both healthy babies and both on time. The first week was in the 산부인과 (maternity ward, is the best translation I get) in a private women's hospital, and when we visited I thought it was a really strange way to do things.  It was not a NICU, as there was no panic or worry in my in-laws family.  Even my brother in law was not allowed to hold my nephew for the first week.  Then the two weeks in the 조리원 (post-natal care centre).  All pricey and if you have money seems to be the way to do things here.

Korean health care is better than Canadian health care by far.  You have to pay a bit, but nothing crazy like in the USA.  I do know service is fast, no long waiting lines, or admission of less qualified doctors due to being desperate (doctor shortages).  No rationing of care where the really sick or really old get less priority.  (Though I am uncertain how the most recent Korean health care changes will affect things.)  Korea has the right mix of private and public keeping things competitive and under control.  Doctors are still incentivized to practice medicine for now.

Not sure on qualifications.
I'm also a bit concerned about infection control.
Maternity wards notwithstanding, they don't seem to have the same mindset on hand washing wand autoclave use here.

donovan

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #592 on: May 25, 2018, 11:44:13 AM »
I'm almost sure that wasn't NICU. They are not going to show babies through the window in NICU. They have more important things to worry about.
And that ''2 weeks in another hospital'' sound like a postnatal care facility where most mothers spend 2 weeks or so after giving birth. So this sounds like a regular birth procedure with no complications to me.

On a related note: According to my wife and many other Koreans that I spoke with; a newborn should not be taken outside for 3 months after birth and should only come in close contact with the immediate family during this time.
There is no doubt that a newborn and a mother is treated way more carefully here compared to the West.

Yep.  Both healthy babies and both on time. The first week was in the 산부인과 (maternity ward, is the best translation I get) in a private women's hospital, and when we visited I thought it was a really strange way to do things.  It was not a NICU, as there was no panic or worry in my in-laws family.  Even my brother in law was not allowed to hold my nephew for the first week.  Then the two weeks in the 조리원 (post-natal care centre).  All pricey and if you have money seems to be the way to do things here.

Korean health care is better than Canadian health care by far.  You have to pay a bit, but nothing crazy like in the USA.  I do know service is fast, no long waiting lines, or admission of less qualified doctors due to being desperate (doctor shortages).  No rationing of care where the really sick or really old get less priority.  (Though I am uncertain how the most recent Korean health care changes will affect things.)  Korea has the right mix of private and public keeping things competitive and under control.  Doctors are still incentivized to practice medicine for now.

Frustrating when the doctors here never look up from their computer screens to look you in the eyes, or when they get antsy and try to direct you toward the exits if you take up more than 5 minutes of their time, or when they seem incapable if helping you beyond doling out a prescription for drugs that may or may not be necessary. But perhaps that's everywhere...

But yeah, the price is generally right.

Offline hangook77

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #593 on: May 25, 2018, 12:09:17 PM »
I'm almost sure that wasn't NICU. They are not going to show babies through the window in NICU. They have more important things to worry about.
And that ''2 weeks in another hospital'' sound like a postnatal care facility where most mothers spend 2 weeks or so after giving birth. So this sounds like a regular birth procedure with no complications to me.

On a related note: According to my wife and many other Koreans that I spoke with; a newborn should not be taken outside for 3 months after birth and should only come in close contact with the immediate family during this time.
There is no doubt that a newborn and a mother is treated way more carefully here compared to the West.

Yep.  Both healthy babies and both on time. The first week was in the 산부인과 (maternity ward, is the best translation I get) in a private women's hospital, and when we visited I thought it was a really strange way to do things.  It was not a NICU, as there was no panic or worry in my in-laws family.  Even my brother in law was not allowed to hold my nephew for the first week.  Then the two weeks in the 조리원 (post-natal care centre).  All pricey and if you have money seems to be the way to do things here.

Korean health care is better than Canadian health care by far.  You have to pay a bit, but nothing crazy like in the USA.  I do know service is fast, no long waiting lines, or admission of less qualified doctors due to being desperate (doctor shortages).  No rationing of care where the really sick or really old get less priority.  (Though I am uncertain how the most recent Korean health care changes will affect things.)  Korea has the right mix of private and public keeping things competitive and under control.  Doctors are still incentivized to practice medicine for now.

Not sure on qualifications.
I'm also a bit concerned about infection control.
Maternity wards notwithstanding, they don't seem to have the same mindset on hand washing wand autoclave use here.

I meant more to do with the availability of doctors instead of shortages and not having to wait in outpatience if there is an emergency for 15 or more hours waiting.  In fully socialized medicine (Canada) there is only so much money to go around, especially if private care is severely restricted due to political correctness.  It means thin funding for things and prioritization.  There isn't even the option of buying extra private insurance.  If the government used the same funding as what they fund now and then allowed some private pay to infuse more cash into the system, they'd eliminate the shortages and long waits.  Also, one of my aunts in Ontario who worked for the government before retiring said that there's an unofficial rule to minimize care for those over 60 due to the cost and perhaps futility of trying.  Again, rationing of care.  I don't want the American system, but the Canadian one left leaning Americans praise so much needs a radical overhaul.  The Korean system is nice because you pay some money but it's cheap and fast.  Government pays a big chunk and private insurance can be reasonably priced unlike USA.  Government will never have enough money to fund it to the needs level, so some private cash and user pay to top it up will make it run better and give health care the money it needs to function properly.  Canadians mostly go ballistic if you ever suggest some paying or allowing some private to mix in a little bit.  Then, again, they bitch about shortages, long waits, months to get a life saving surgery, etc.  Canadians get hysterical and think the US is the only alternative while failing to look at the good mixed systems of Korea and Japan.  I love health care here mostly.  (Though they should do something about late nights and weekends to have more coverage.  Only bad part.)

sligo

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #594 on: May 27, 2018, 09:10:54 AM »


Apart from you are misunderstanding what "Free" means.  The UK NHS wass built on the principle of "Free at the point of need".  This means that you will  not be charged to go to a hospital and receive NECESSARY treatment.  if the treatment is not deemed necessary, you can pay to receive private treatment.  As a portion of taxation has been used to fund the health service, the population are still paying for it.

The video showing the ice-cream and petrol are not representative models of "Free at the point of need".

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #595 on: May 27, 2018, 10:24:57 AM »


Apart from you are misunderstanding what "Free" means.  The UK NHS wass built on the principle of "Free at the point of need".  This means that you will  not be charged to go to a hospital and receive NECESSARY treatment.  if the treatment is not deemed necessary, you can pay to receive private treatment.  As a portion of taxation has been used to fund the health service, the population are still paying for it.

The video showing the ice-cream and petrol are not representative models of "Free at the point of need".

The future of the UK NHS will be paying more and more taxes to treat more and more fat people

https://news.sky.com/story/morbid-obesity-in-britain-to-double-within-20-years-11385734

getting more and more dispensations for their 'illness.'

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/25/obese-people-should-start-work-later-avoid-rush-hour-crush-government/

« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 01:38:19 PM by eggieguffer »

Offline JNM

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #596 on: May 27, 2018, 01:31:59 PM »
A few years ago, Canadian politicians were arguing about “2-tier healthcare”; the private clinics which were talked about.

They are generally not supported by the voters, because of the idea of universal coverage.

Even if they are banned in Canada, there will still be a “multi-tier” system.

The top tier is people who have the money (or insurance cover) to go elsewhere. This is the top 10%.

Next are people who get hurt at work. Workman’s Comp (or whatever they call it these days) has many benefits not in the public system. Companies also often provide drug, dental, and other supplemental coverage.

If you don’t get hurt at work, be in a motor vehicle accident! Again, your insurance will cover things like Occupational therapy, meds, modifications to your home, etc.

Finally, the average Canadian resident. That is the story told in the clip below.





Offline hangook77

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #597 on: June 05, 2018, 03:08:36 PM »
Air is "65" - moderate, here in Gangnam today. Not as great as the air back in 'Merica  8) ,
but it'll have to do.  :rolleyes:

Anything under 100 is a good day here and I can live with it.  It's 70 today here.  Over 100 in the orange and the red I worry about and avoid.  Spring in Korea is the worst due to transitioning weather and wind patterns.  Also in winter when the daytime and night time temps have a large gap between cold and warm, the air gets stale, windless, create a bit of fog and traps the pollution in.  Korea and China are polluting just as much on those cold Siberian winter Arctic minus 20 windchill days, yet the rating is low, like 20 or less and in the green.  Also, in summer, the winds change to a southerly direction improving air quality though some of the most vile humid days might trap the pollutants in too.  Less likely in summer though. 

Offline eujunseo

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #598 on: June 05, 2018, 03:10:12 PM »
Apparently most of the air pollution comes from China. Sigh...

Offline eujunseo

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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #599 on: June 05, 2018, 03:13:14 PM »
Air is "65" - moderate, here in Gangnam today. Not as great as the air back in 'Merica  8) ,
but it'll have to do.  :rolleyes:

Anything under 100 is a good day here and I can live with it.  It's 70 today here.  Over 100 in the orange and the red I worry about and avoid.  Spring in Korea is the worst due to transitioning weather and wind patterns.  Also in winter when the daytime and night time temps have a large gap between cold and warm, the air gets stale, windless, create a bit of fog and traps the pollution in.  Korea and China are polluting just as much on those cold Siberian winter Arctic minus 20 windchill days, yet the rating is low, like 20 or less and in the green.  Also, in summer, the winds change to a southerly direction improving air quality though some of the most vile humid days might trap the pollutants in too.  Less likely in summer though.

Did you post this twice by mistake?