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Author Topic: Trayvon Martin  (Read 12302 times)

Offline Jrong

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Trayvon Martin
« on: March 26, 2012, 09:39:02 AM »
Wow. I was away from the news for a bit and now back in the loop. No doubt Zimmerman is a racist but I'm concerned that they're not focusing enough on the fact that he's seriously crazy.
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Offline woman-king

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2012, 12:07:42 PM »
Yeah, he apparently called the police like 50 times in the year leading up to the shooting--and I gather this was in a fairly nondescript gated community in Florida without an exorbitant crime rate.  What's with this practice of wannabe vigilantes being able to take "neighborhood watch" classes and get certified to be like, the local citizen cop?  I thought "neighborhood watch" just meant that neighbors looked out for each other and would call the police if necessary, and could put up signs around the neighborhood to indicate this.  Zimmerman sounds like a mental health case who exploited what I think is a questionable program to act out his paranoid delusions.

Really, really sad and tragic event (along with the recent shootings in Afghanistan and France). 

Offline aiden

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2012, 12:23:48 PM »
There is that "stand your ground" law in Florida.

Found this on the interweb:

Prodded by their NRA masters, lawmakers waved off those predictions as exaggerations. Then they overwhelmingly passed a bill that took the “castle doctrine” to infinity and beyond. The “castle doctrine” used to mean you could use deadly force if someone attacked you in your home. “Stand your ground” not only absolved the homeowner of any obligation to retreat, it extended that concept outside the home.

[...] Gov. Jeb Bush couldn’t sign the bill fast enough.

Seven years later, those warnings so casually dismissed by Bush and the Legislature are taking shape.

In fact, the number of justifiable homicides has significantly increased since the law went into effect, according to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

From 2000 to 2005, an average of 13 killings by private citizens were deemed justified each year. Between 2006 and 2010 that average increased to 36 killings per year. The highest was in 2009 at 45.

Offline Jrong

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2012, 10:29:34 AM »
Yeah, that has got to be the dumbest law I've ever seen. But I can understand why it exists. Americans are so independent...

It is a really tragic situation, hopefully Trayvon's parents journey to DC puts enough pressure on someone to get rid of that law.
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Offline Munwon

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2012, 11:04:00 AM »
The kid seemed like a thug to me. I believe the media made a rush to judgement on painting Mr. Zimmerman a racist with a gun. In fact he was defending himself when he was attacked by Martin.

Offline justanotherwaygook

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2012, 11:29:03 AM »
The kid seemed like a thug to me. I believe the media made a rush to judgement on painting Mr. Zimmerman a racist with a gun. In fact he was defending himself when he was attacked by Martin.
Link?
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Offline Jrong

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2012, 11:57:12 AM »
He seemed like a thug to you? Really. Why is that, munwon?
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Offline justanotherwaygook

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2012, 12:08:08 PM »
Pay no attention to Munwon.

The kid seemed like a thug to me. I believe the media made a rush to judgement on painting Mr. Zimmerman a racist with a gun. In fact he was defending himself when he was attacked by Martin.
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Offline Munwon

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2012, 01:28:11 PM »
Well for one, he was busted with weed and suspended from school. His mom couldn't handle him and sent him to stay with his dad. A witness saw Trayvon on top of Mr. Zimmerman punching him and slamming his head into the cement. Don't get me wrong its tragic that someone died but he was no angel....

Offline justanotherwaygook

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2012, 01:42:48 PM »
Well for one, he was busted with weed and suspended from school. His mom couldn't handle him and sent him to stay with his dad. A witness saw Trayvon on top of Mr. Zimmerman punching him and slamming his head into the cement. Don't get me wrong its tragic that someone died but he was no angel....

He was busted with a baggy with marijuana residue.

A true thug  ::)
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Offline Jrong

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2012, 02:03:51 PM »
Lol, that's your definition of a thug?

Where's the link. That witness sounds sketchy. It's very possible, though. If I was a teenager, being followed by a paranoid idiot, and I was having a real bad day I might flip and kick his ass. It's understandable that George would shoot him if he felt scared for his life (and had severe mental issues) but it doesn't change the fact that something is messed up when laws like these exist. It's also messed up how little attention the govt pays to mental health of its citizens -- getting mental health treatment is a luxury of the rich, often.
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Offline flasyb

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2012, 02:26:13 PM »
Well for one, he was busted with weed and suspended from school. His mom couldn't handle him and sent him to stay with his dad. A witness saw Trayvon on top of Mr. Zimmerman punching him and slamming his head into the cement. Don't get me wrong its tragic that someone died but he was no angel....

Wasn't Trayvon a skinny 140pounds compared to Zimmerman being around 250? Who da thug dere, son? If he managed to turn around on someone who was following him and who was that much bigger than him and beat him down then well done, son.

Quote
Don't get me wrong its tragic that someone died but he was no angel....
What does that mean exactly? The "it's tragic but..." bit. Do you think it's not so tragic? Perhaps he, in a way, got what was coming to him?


Zimmerman should be charged with murder. Let the courts decide.
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Offline Jrong

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2012, 02:47:37 PM »
But then if that guy is charged with murder...what? Just put another crazy person in jail -- doesn't even begin to address the problem. The idea that somebody, some individual person, always has to be held responsible for every mess is so American and so f@# up. I understand the need to keep crazy people off of the streets, but wouldn't you agree that this is extremely complex? It's easy to demonize an individual (George) and I didn't mean to do that by my post.
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Offline flasyb

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2012, 03:36:12 PM »
But then if that guy is charged with murder...what? Just put another crazy person in jail -- doesn't even begin to address the problem. The idea that somebody, some individual person, always has to be held responsible for every mess is so American and so f@# up. I understand the need to keep crazy people off of the streets, but wouldn't you agree that this is extremely complex? It's easy to demonize an individual (George) and I didn't mean to do that by my post.

Sure, it's complex. There's a difference between charged and convicted though. If sufficient evidence comes up to show Zimmerman is/was mentally ill, then surely that would be taken into account. That being said, I have read of cases where the mentally ill are actually executed in the states.

I had no intention of demonising Zimmerman either. I think that charges need to be brought but that's not to say that I think he should be convicted of murder - I don't know enough about the case to say that. A trial with a jury and as much evidence as possible taken into account should determine what he's guilty of - if he is guilty of anything wrong at all. His mental state will also determine his level of criminal responsibility (at least I hope it would) to a certain extent.
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Offline woman-king

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2012, 05:26:46 PM »
Well for one, he was busted with weed and suspended from school. His mom couldn't handle him and sent him to stay with his dad. A witness saw Trayvon on top of Mr. Zimmerman punching him and slamming his head into the cement. Don't get me wrong its tragic that someone died but he was no angel....

Wasn't Trayvon a skinny 140pounds compared to Zimmerman being around 250? Who da thug dere, son? If he managed to turn around on someone who was following him and who was that much bigger than him and beat him down then well done, son.

Quote
Don't get me wrong its tragic that someone died but he was no angel....
What does that mean exactly? The "it's tragic but..." bit. Do you think it's not so tragic? Perhaps he, in a way, got what was coming to him?


Zimmerman should be charged with murder. Let the courts decide.

Yeah, that was my first thought--this would have had to have been a very stupid kid to think of just randomly a man Zimmerman's size just for, you know, thuggish kicks and giggles.

Munwon, did you listen to the 9-11 dispatch call?  Zimmerman was following Martin, was told not to do so by the police, and apparently continued to follow him anyway.  Whatever altercation took place between the two of them occurred after Martin had been followed by Zimmerman--who, again, was a self-appointed neighborhood watchman who had called the cops 50 times in the last year.

Of course I want there to be a full investigation done by police, and since none of us were there I feel it's important to admit there may be more to the story here.  It's certainly been presented by the media as "Zimmerman=racist killer, Martin = cute little innocent victim," and since it hasn't been properly investigated yet I can understand wanting to suspend judgment until it has.  But from what we know, this kid wasn't exactly a "thug" in any sense of the word.  Calling him that just perpetuates the sort of negative stereotypes that may have contributed to this tragedy.

Offline Frozencat99

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2012, 05:30:47 PM »
Well for one, he was busted with weed and suspended from school. His mom couldn't handle him and sent him to stay with his dad. A witness saw Trayvon on top of Mr. Zimmerman punching him and slamming his head into the cement. Don't get me wrong its tragic that someone died but he was no angel....

Wasn't Trayvon a skinny 140pounds compared to Zimmerman being around 250? Who da thug dere, son? If he managed to turn around on someone who was following him and who was that much bigger than him and beat him down then well done, son.

Quote
Don't get me wrong its tragic that someone died but he was no angel....
What does that mean exactly? The "it's tragic but..." bit. Do you think it's not so tragic? Perhaps he, in a way, got what was coming to him?


Zimmerman should be charged with murder. Let the courts decide.

Yeah, that was my first thought--this would have had to have been a very stupid kid to think of just randomly a man Zimmerman's size just for, you know, thuggish kicks and giggles.

Munwon, did you listen to the 9-11 dispatch call?  Zimmerman was following Martin, was told not to do so by the police, and apparently continued to follow him anyway.  Whatever altercation took place between the two of them occurred after Martin had been followed by Zimmerman--who, again, was a self-appointed neighborhood watchman who had called the cops 50 times in the last year.

Of course I want there to be a full investigation done by police, and since none of us were there I feel it's important to admit there may be more to the story here.  It's certainly been presented by the media as "Zimmerman=racist killer, Martin = cute little innocent victim," and since it hasn't been properly investigated yet I can understand wanting to suspend judgment until it has.  But from what we know, this kid wasn't exactly a "thug" in any sense of the word.  Calling him that just perpetuates the sort of negative stereotypes that may have contributed to this tragedy.

But he was wearing a hoodie.
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Offline woman-king

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2012, 05:51:29 PM »
But then if that guy is charged with murder...what? Just put another crazy person in jail -- doesn't even begin to address the problem. The idea that somebody, some individual person, always has to be held responsible for every mess is so American and so f@# up. I understand the need to keep crazy people off of the streets, but wouldn't you agree that this is extremely complex? It's easy to demonize an individual (George) and I didn't mean to do that by my post.

Yeah, he's definitely been demonized because that's the best way to present the story--I think a lot of fault should lie on the Sanford police dept. for not doing a thorough investigation in the first place (which should have included a review of Zimmerman's previous 911 calls and mental health).  The fact that their police chief, I believe, stepped down over the controversy just indicates this was poorly handled from the inside.

In terms of the Florida law, though--how much do we think that played into Zimmerman's decision to shoot?  I mean, it sounds like the police used the law as an excuse not to investigate further, as opposed to Zimmerman or other individuals thinking it gives them a pass to shoot anyone who looks suspicious. 

I think some level of self-defense laws are important to have, or you end up with situations like Korea, where it's completely irrelevant who the aggressor was in a fight and who was defending themselves, as legal liability is determined by who did the most damage. 

Offline Jrong

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2012, 07:59:44 AM »
Yeah, flasyb, sorry for sounding like I was coming out against you. The little I know of you, I don't think a person like you would propose a simple solution to a complex problem (and you haven't). I was just venting at how I think the whole idea of "responsibility" is often so narrow in American society. Some individual person always has to be at fault when often there are a number of individuals and factors that go beyond individuals that are at fault.

Womanking, I'm not exactly sure about the Florida law and how that played into the whole thing. I do think the law is messed up, but I actually have more of a beef with the fact that the US govt doesn't do much for ensuring mental health of it's citizens -- which unfortunately contributes to scenarios like these. I remember reading something that most people in jail have some form of mental illness. If we would tackle things at their root (mental illness) I think a lot of these tragic situations would not exist.

I'm all for self-defense but I think the current Florida law (from what I know of it) is too extreme and it exists b/c of $ from lobbyists. Doesn't mean it's unscientific but more likely than not there are better self-defense laws out there.
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Offline flasyb

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2012, 08:51:28 AM »
Yeah, flasyb, sorry for sounding like I was coming out against you. The little I know of you, I don't think a person like you would propose a simple solution to a complex problem (and you haven't). I was just venting at how I think the whole idea of "responsibility" is often so narrow in American society. Some individual person always has to be at fault when often there are a number of individuals and factors that go beyond individuals that are at fault.

Womanking, I'm not exactly sure about the Florida law and how that played into the whole thing. I do think the law is messed up, but I actually have more of a beef with the fact that the US govt doesn't do much for ensuring mental health of it's citizens -- which unfortunately contributes to scenarios like these. I remember reading something that most people in jail have some form of mental illness. If we would tackle things at their root (mental illness) I think a lot of these tragic situations would not exist.

I'm all for self-defense but I think the current Florida law (from what I know of it) is too extreme and it exists b/c of $ from lobbyists. Doesn't mean it's unscientific but more likely than not there are better self-defense laws out there.

No worries, I know what you mean! I'm friends with a paramedic back home and being a paramedic, you certainly acquire some stories over the years. People will sue for anything.

Then again, if you're self employed, get injured and can't work as a result and someone has a level of responsibility in that injury don't you deserve some compensation? If only so that you can feed your children, yourself and/or pay your mortgage while you're unable to work. Insurers will try to dodge paying as much as possible of course so if they determine that the another party was responsible, that's what you've got to go by.

That being said, it is contributing to an "it's always somebody else's fault" sort of mindset in my own country too. People don't just have accidents through their own stupidity any more. "It's not my fault that I bumped my head on the low ceiling, it's the owner of the ceiling's fault because they didn't put an eye catching sticker on it with the words 'low ceiling' on it." It's like we've become a country of idiots who don't see danger unless the kind people at the government (or relevant authority) point it out to us.
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Offline CMartinez

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Re: Trayvon Martin
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2012, 08:47:57 AM »
In the end of the day I think we have to remember that Trayvon was a human being and this story was originally underreported for a few weeks.  The incident occured in Feb 26 and the story was only starting to gain traction as I was leaving the states on March 20, espcially in the local news outlets (because Trayvon is from my hometown).  In the days since the story broke nationally, I think a lot of different people with different agendas are putting their own spin into the story, but in the end of the day we have to remember the young man who was unreasonably murdered for no reason and the right steps are finally taken to address this situation.