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Author Topic: Question about floor heating (ondol)  (Read 1401 times)

Offline CaitV

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Re: Question about floor heating (ondol)
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2018, 02:39:54 PM »
For the ondol, I think it depends where your utility closet is located. In my old apartment the utility closet was on an outer wall facing a harbour with bad windchill so I left my ondol on because the pipes froze easily. In my current apartment the boiler is right by the hallway entrance and is much more insulated so I turn the ondol off when I'm away.

As for the laundry debate,  I've never heard of a washing machine functioning as a kettle...usually it's hooked up to hot and cold water lines, which pump the water into and out of the machine...

Cold water is more environmentally friendly, and is best for washing dark and coloured fabrics, wool, and denim.

Warm water is best for washing whites and things that are stained, like baby clothes or dishcloths.


Online lifeisgood6447

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Re: Question about floor heating (ondol)
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2018, 02:44:41 PM »
it really is a lot more expensive to use it than it is to not use it.

That's hard to argue with  ;D  I just like the floor to be warm.

Btw, most laundry machines are also hooked up to the boiler and are taking in hot water. So doing laundry after more people, will also use more gas.

Who uses hot water to wash laundry? Unless it's like, towels or sheets.

Everyone should. I'm talking about a regular 40 Celsius degree wash. The washing machine can also heat up the water but it's more economic to do it with gas rather than electricity.

Wait - why should everyone use warm water for washing? I don't want to wear my clothes out faster, or risk them shrinking. Warm water makes the colours on clothing fade a lot faster than cold water. It's less environmentally friendly. It's more expensive.

Also - what sort of bizarre world do you live in in which a washing machine can heat water? Whether your boiler is gas or you have an electric water heater, the hot water is coming from an external source, not getting heated by the water itself.

Also -  for the record, in Korea, electricity is, in almost every instance, cheaper and more efficient than gas. That applies to heating water, too.

Laundry detergents work better in warm water instead of the icy cold one that comes from the tap in the winter. I had an old washer that only had cold water intake. Got rid if it. Warm water makes a huge difference in my experience. Especially when washing baby/toddler clothes with all the stains, it's a necessity.

As shocking as it may sound to you, washing machines have a heating element and are very capable of heating up the water. At least front loader washers do. It's not a modern thing either. Back in the eighties our laundry machine did the same.
Disagree with electricity being cheaper. Because of the progressive rate system. If you use under 200kwh a month, it's cheap. But the more you use, the more expensive it gets. Gas is flat rate.

I have a new LG front loader that heats the water. As a matter of fact there is only cold water connected in the back. It can even almost boil water, which is used for washing baby clothes.

Offline daelight

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Re: Question about floor heating (ondol)
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2018, 02:55:01 PM »
Is it correct to assume that it'd be cheaper to turn on the ondol after work and off when you go to sleep OR keeping it on 외출 when you don't want it heated?

Online #basedcowboyshirt

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Re: Question about floor heating (ondol)
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2018, 02:56:15 PM »
it really is a lot more expensive to use it than it is to not use it.

That's hard to argue with  ;D  I just like the floor to be warm.

Btw, most laundry machines are also hooked up to the boiler and are taking in hot water. So doing laundry after more people, will also use more gas.

Who uses hot water to wash laundry? Unless it's like, towels or sheets.

Everyone should. I'm talking about a regular 40 Celsius degree wash. The washing machine can also heat up the water but it's more economic to do it with gas rather than electricity.

Wait - why should everyone use warm water for washing? I don't want to wear my clothes out faster, or risk them shrinking. Warm water makes the colours on clothing fade a lot faster than cold water. It's less environmentally friendly. It's more expensive.

Also - what sort of bizarre world do you live in in which a washing machine can heat water? Whether your boiler is gas or you have an electric water heater, the hot water is coming from an external source, not getting heated by the water itself.

Also -  for the record, in Korea, electricity is, in almost every instance, cheaper and more efficient than gas. That applies to heating water, too.

Laundry detergents work better in warm water instead of the icy cold one that comes from the tap in the winter. I had an old washer that only had cold water intake. Got rid if it. Warm water makes a huge difference in my experience. Especially when washing baby/toddler clothes with all the stains, it's a necessity.

As shocking as it may sound to you, washing machines have a heating element and are very capable of heating up the water. At least front loader washers do. It's not a modern thing either. Back in the eighties our laundry machine did the same.
Disagree with electricity being cheaper. Because of the progressive rate system. If you use under 200kwh a month, it's cheap. But the more you use, the more expensive it gets. Gas is flat rate.

I'm not really sure how accurate that statement is, but you seem pretty confident in it.

Online Lazio

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Re: Question about floor heating (ondol)
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2018, 05:13:52 PM »

I'm not really sure how accurate that statement is, but you seem pretty confident in it.

Which one? Gas being cheaper? I'm pretty sure it's accurate. You gotta ask yourself: Why do all homes have gas powered boilers in Korea? Only exception is where gas is not available. If electricity was cheaper, wouldn't it make more sense to have electric boilers in most houses?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 05:16:16 PM by Lazio »

Online #basedcowboyshirt

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Re: Question about floor heating (ondol)
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2018, 07:54:50 AM »

I'm not really sure how accurate that statement is, but you seem pretty confident in it.

Which one? Gas being cheaper? I'm pretty sure it's accurate. You gotta ask yourself: Why do all homes have gas powered boilers in Korea? Only exception is where gas is not available. If electricity was cheaper, wouldn't it make more sense to have electric boilers in most houses?

On-demand electric boilers are typically slower to heat than gas boilers, and they tend heat less consistently. Anyone who's ever had to use one when showering on vacation in most South East Asian countries can attest to this.

If you have an electric hot water tank, like a lot of North American homes have, that's different because the water can be heated between uses, but in Korean apartments, where there isn't usually space for a giant hot water tank, gas boilers are the best option.

That's why most houses don't have electric boilers. Because they're not very good.

 

Online Lazio

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Re: Question about floor heating (ondol)
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2018, 10:22:48 AM »

I'm not really sure how accurate that statement is, but you seem pretty confident in it.

Which one? Gas being cheaper? I'm pretty sure it's accurate. You gotta ask yourself: Why do all homes have gas powered boilers in Korea? Only exception is where gas is not available. If electricity was cheaper, wouldn't it make more sense to have electric boilers in most houses?

On-demand electric boilers are typically slower to heat than gas boilers, and they tend heat less consistently. Anyone who's ever had to use one when showering on vacation in most South East Asian countries can attest to this.

If you have an electric hot water tank, like a lot of North American homes have, that's different because the water can be heated between uses, but in Korean apartments, where there isn't usually space for a giant hot water tank, gas boilers are the best option.

That's why most houses don't have electric boilers. Because they're not very good.

Giant electric water heaters have a few advantages such as they can be set up in an enclosed area with no ventillation. Also, in many western countries, electricity rates are cheaper at night. So it heats up all the water at night which can be used the next day. But they are giant energy wasters. They heat up a huge amount of water that most likely won't be used all.

It's hard to compare the cost of energy when it comes to heating.
A standard rule: 1Kwh equals 3.600.000J or 3.6MJ
In Korea, electricity prices are: the first 200Kwh is 93,3Krw/Kwh
                                            200Kwh-400Kwh is 187,9Krw
                                            above 400Kwh    is  280,6Krw
Now based on our last gas bill, 1cubic meter of gas was 42.711 MJ during the billing period. (it changes slightly)
So 3,6MJ (which is 1 Kwh as seen above) came to 56Krw. Now you compare that to 1 Kwh even in the cheapest tier which is 93,3Krw.

Now we compare how much does it cost to boil 1 liter of water in an electric kettle vs. in a pot on the stove. My 2500W kettle boiled the very cold tap water in little over 3 min. Let's say it would be 2m50sec if we started from 20Celsius Degree water. That means it took about 0,119Kwh which costs 11,1Krw
I have no way of measuring actual gas usage but someone else did and states that it took 0,019 cubic meter of gas to boil that same 1 liter of water on the stove. That would come to 12,6Krw. One should note that boiling something on the stove is not effective at all since a lot of the energy is wasted and heats the surrounding air, instead of the pot. But even with that, it's only slightly more expensive than electricity in the cheapest tier. You want to do it in the second tier and using electricity will suddenly be twice as expensive as gas.
It's also worth noting that gas boilers use energy way more efficiently than the stove top. Somewhere between 85 and 90% vs. 30% or so.

So the conclusion is: Using gas for heating and warming up water for showers and dishwashing etc is way cheaper than electricity. If you need a cup of hot water, and you normally use under 200Kwh in a month, then using an electric kettle will be cheaper.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 10:24:22 AM by Lazio »

Online #basedcowboyshirt

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Re: Question about floor heating (ondol)
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2018, 10:36:39 AM »


So the conclusion is: Using gas for heating and warming up water for showers and dishwashing etc is way cheaper than electricity. If you need a cup of hot water, and you normally use under 200Kwh in a month, then using an electric kettle will be cheaper.

Duh? I mean, I'm glad you did all the calculation to support what I was saying, but it seems kind of unnecessary. At least we agree, though.

Online Lazio

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Re: Question about floor heating (ondol)
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2018, 10:44:58 AM »


So the conclusion is: Using gas for heating and warming up water for showers and dishwashing etc is way cheaper than electricity. If you need a cup of hot water, and you normally use under 200Kwh in a month, then using an electric kettle will be cheaper.

Duh? I mean, I'm glad you did all the calculation to support what I was saying, but it seems kind of unnecessary. At least we agree, though.

Didn't you say the exact opposite?:

Also -  for the record, in Korea, electricity is, in almost every instance, cheaper and more efficient than gas. That applies to heating water, too.





Online #basedcowboyshirt

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Re: Question about floor heating (ondol)
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2018, 10:57:33 AM »


So the conclusion is: Using gas for heating and warming up water for showers and dishwashing etc is way cheaper than electricity. If you need a cup of hot water, and you normally use under 200Kwh in a month, then using an electric kettle will be cheaper.

Duh? I mean, I'm glad you did all the calculation to support what I was saying, but it seems kind of unnecessary. At least we agree, though.

Didn't you say the exact opposite?:

Also -  for the record, in Korea, electricity is, in almost every instance, cheaper and more efficient than gas. That applies to heating water, too.

There are almost no hot water tanks or electric boilers in domestic residences here in Korea. It's all gas. So heating water for showers, dishes, etc is done by gas. So if we're talking about heating water in Korea, we're obviously not talking about stuff like that, because, again, nobody uses electric boilers here. Because they're bad.

And like you said, for boiling water for tea or small amounts, electric kettles are cheaper and more efficient than using your gas range.

So, it seems like we're pretty much on exactly the same page.

Online zola

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Re: Question about floor heating (ondol)
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2018, 11:14:30 AM »


So the conclusion is: Using gas for heating and warming up water for showers and dishwashing etc is way cheaper than electricity. If you need a cup of hot water, and you normally use under 200Kwh in a month, then using an electric kettle will be cheaper.

Duh? I mean, I'm glad you did all the calculation to support what I was saying, but it seems kind of unnecessary. At least we agree, though.

Didn't you say the exact opposite?:

Also -  for the record, in Korea, electricity is, in almost every instance, cheaper and more efficient than gas. That applies to heating water, too.

There are almost no hot water tanks or electric boilers in domestic residences here in Korea. It's all gas. So heating water for showers, dishes, etc is done by gas. So if we're talking about heating water in Korea, we're obviously not talking about stuff like that, because, again, nobody uses electric boilers here. Because they're bad.

And like you said, for boiling water for tea or small amounts, electric kettles are cheaper and more efficient than using your gas range.

So, it seems like we're pretty much on exactly the same page.

Jeez. Just admit you were wrong and have no idea what you are talking about. Talk about mental gymnastics.
Kpip! - Martin 2018

Online Lazio

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Re: Question about floor heating (ondol)
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2018, 11:28:43 AM »


So the conclusion is: Using gas for heating and warming up water for showers and dishwashing etc is way cheaper than electricity. If you need a cup of hot water, and you normally use under 200Kwh in a month, then using an electric kettle will be cheaper.

Duh? I mean, I'm glad you did all the calculation to support what I was saying, but it seems kind of unnecessary. At least we agree, though.

Didn't you say the exact opposite?:

Also -  for the record, in Korea, electricity is, in almost every instance, cheaper and more efficient than gas. That applies to heating water, too.

There are almost no hot water tanks or electric boilers in domestic residences here in Korea. It's all gas. So heating water for showers, dishes, etc is done by gas. So if we're talking about heating water in Korea, we're obviously not talking about stuff like that, because, again, nobody uses electric boilers here. Because they're bad.

And like you said, for boiling water for tea or small amounts, electric kettles are cheaper and more efficient than using your gas range.

So, it seems like we're pretty much on exactly the same page.

Lol, you are trying to come back from this but you can't.
Now you want to say you meant boiling a cup of water?
There is electric floor heating as well. It includes no hot water, just electric wires running in the floor. Much like a heating mat. You only see that one in places with no gas connection. If it was cheaper to run that one, more homes would use it. That one doesn't need a giant water tank or space or anything. People don't use it because electricity is more expensive than gas and that's the exact opposite of what you said.

Online Mezoti97

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Re: Question about floor heating (ondol)
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2018, 11:46:57 AM »
There are almost no hot water tanks or electric boilers in domestic residences here in Korea. It's all gas. So heating water for showers, dishes, etc is done by gas.

In rural areas of Korea, a lot of homes use oil, not gas, for hot water and the ondol.

Offline leaponover

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Re: Question about floor heating (ondol)
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2019, 07:02:38 PM »
it really is a lot more expensive to use it than it is to not use it.

That's hard to argue with  ;D  I just like the floor to be warm.

Btw, most laundry machines are also hooked up to the boiler and are taking in hot water. So doing laundry after more people, will also use more gas.

Who uses hot water to wash laundry? Unless it's like, towels or sheets.

Everyone should. I'm talking about a regular 40 Celsius degree wash. The washing machine can also heat up the water but it's more economic to do it with gas rather than electricity.

Wait - why should everyone use warm water for washing? I don't want to wear my clothes out faster, or risk them shrinking. Warm water makes the colours on clothing fade a lot faster than cold water. It's less environmentally friendly. It's more expensive.

Also - what sort of bizarre world do you live in in which a washing machine can heat water? Whether your boiler is gas or you have an electric water heater, the hot water is coming from an external source, not getting heated by the water itself.

Also -  for the record, in Korea, electricity is, in almost every instance, cheaper and more efficient than gas. That applies to heating water, too.

Laundry detergents work better in warm water instead of the icy cold one that comes from the tap in the winter. I had an old washer that only had cold water intake. Got rid if it. Warm water makes a huge difference in my experience. Especially when washing baby/toddler clothes with all the stains, it's a necessity.

As shocking as it may sound to you, washing machines have a heating element and are very capable of heating up the water. At least front loader washers do. It's not a modern thing either. Back in the eighties our laundry machine did the same.
Disagree with electricity being cheaper. Because of the progressive rate system. If you use under 200kwh a month, it's cheap. But the more you use, the more expensive it gets. Gas is flat rate.

I'm not really sure how accurate that statement is, but you seem pretty confident in it.

Not for nothing, but you just learned today that washing machines have heating elements.  You might want to do a little bit more research to get caught up.

I can't imagine not washing underwear and socks in at least 40 degree water, but I guess that's just me?  Queue the streaks jokes.

Offline leaponover

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Re: Question about floor heating (ondol)
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2019, 07:07:44 PM »
There are almost no hot water tanks or electric boilers in domestic residences here in Korea. It's all gas. So heating water for showers, dishes, etc is done by gas.

In rural areas of Korea, a lot of homes use oil, not gas, for hot water and the ondol.

That's my case. I live in the countryside, which makes me laugh because it's a two minute drive to a very populated area.  But we have no dedicated gas line.  We use gas for the oven and stove top, oil for the ondol and hot water, and also have a hot water boiler (they call it something different here) for showers because it takes too long to heat the water and doesn't last long. 

The wrench in all this is we also have solar panels...so now what is more efficient, lol....I'm not doing the calculations!