December 12, 2018, 12:42:34 PM


Author Topic: Attitude towards foreign teachers  (Read 3311 times)

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2018, 12:12:16 PM »
What are confederate/hillbilly names, lol? Do you mean names like "Big Joe" or "Billy Bob?" Pretty much nobody has those names in the last 40 years or more. I was born and raised in the South and never saw anyone with that crap. Now you will just say you included "confederate", but we all know what you meant.
No, Confederate was a part of it. Naming a kid in class Norma Mae or Billy Bob while more contemporary and generic, doesn't include the historical angle like naming a black student "John Bell Hood" or "Howell Cobb".  Korea isn't in the same class as slaves, but giving a Japanese name has a darker edge than I think "Billy Bob" would.

At that point someone is trying to humiliate and insult.

Online biancaapato

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2018, 12:18:28 PM »
Ah right, I've never come across it.

I have. There's no intended malice behind it- new teacher comes up with English names for discipline and as a fun activity, etc.

But there's something behind it that's fundamentally disrespectful and unequal. Sorry, but the people of the world shouldn't have to change their names to make things easier and we shouldn't dub them with an English name simply to make things easier for us.

Learn how to say someone's damn name and remember it, whatever the language. That being said, nicknames among friends generate spontaneously and bring people together, so nothing against them.

When I was in high school and learning French, our teacher had us pick French names. Same with the students who were in Spanish class. No one complained and thought it was fun to choose a "new" name. Every time I have a new class of students, I make them create a name tag. They put a nickname (English or Korean) on one side, and their full name in Hangul on the other. They face whichever name they want me to call them during class.

There's a difference between French class and what is happening here. I don't want to go all SJW, but there is a power dynamic that isn't present in the French class. What if the Chinese become the dominant power and suddenly everyone has Chinese classes and you need to have a Chinese name to make things easier for Chinese people. I don't know about you, but my response would be "They can take their Chinese name and shove it up their ass. Address me by my ****** name or **** off. Basic human respect."

I didn't care about this issue until one of my friends pretty much said that. I had to agree. It can be pretty gd disrespectful (note CAN).

Do you notice how sone NETs will often use Korean names when speaking derisvely about their students but use their English names when speaking positively?

Do you think most teachers have students choose English names because it's easier for them? I think some do, but in my opinion, I think most teachers allow students to choose English names because it's a fun activity.  My students thought my full name was "Bianca" with my last name being "비" until we talked about names and how they're different in other countries. They really enjoyed the activity and the choice to pick another name. I did not force them to pick an English name, I asked them to choose an English name or tell me their Korean nickname. If they wanted me to, I called them by their full Korean name.

Online Piggydee

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2018, 12:24:54 PM »
My first class teaching Korean kids was a nightmare trying to control; it all went downhill from there. 8)

I had 1 class of 10 - 12 year olds (I'm guessing); as soon as I reached the front of the classroom

and had turned to face them, they all on cue gave me the finger and screamed "buck yooo" and then

the fun just started.   There was no hope of trying to "control" the students as the manager would side

with the students every time.   My main approach ended up being that I tried to get them to do a couple of

pages in their books  followed by a game (if they were finished).   

There wasn't a lot of "teaching" happening.

Just now saw this comment.  Man I would have walk straight the F out go to the director and say "CORRECT THIS MESS"  No way in hell I'm going to be disrespected like that.  Plus I would get the phone number of all those creeps and have either the director or a Korean friend call and give them an ear full about their damn evil spawn.  F That. I will literal walk out. 

Online AvecPommesFrites

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2018, 12:29:24 PM »
The Englishee names were already chosen for my students before I ever saw them.


And let's not forget this gem  :rolleyes: :rolleyes:  Not saying what that ticket agent did was right but geeze mom you didn't really think this one through did you??
http://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2018/11/29/little-girl-named-abcde-was-mocked-by-southwest-gate-agent-airline-has-apologized/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.436b73146e94

Mom why is she laughing at my name?

Because your mommy and daddy are a bunch of selfish fuckups who thought they'd be cool and famous by giving you a ridiculous name!

Oh, thanks mom.

Abcde pronounced ab-si-dee    I still don't know how to pronounce that name.  :shocked:
Can I refill your eggnog for you? Get you something to eat? Drive you out to the middle of nowhere and leave you for dead?

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2018, 12:29:38 PM »
Quote
Do you think most teachers have students choose English names because it's easier for them? I think some do, but in my opinion, I think most teachers allow students to choose English names because it's a fun activity.  My students thought my full name was "Bianca" with my last name being "비" until we talked about names and how they're different in other countries. They really enjoyed the activity and the choice to pick another name. I did not force them to pick an English name, I asked them to choose an English name or tell me their Korean nickname. If they wanted me to, I called them by their full Korean name.

Yes I think everyone's experience is of teachers letting students choose their own names, apart from Demartino who has noticed other teachers, not himself of course, forcing names on their students. I wonder how he knew teachers had forced Neocolonialist names on their students. maybe they boasted about it in the staff room afterwards. 

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2018, 12:39:55 PM »
I think it can be both or either one. Like I mentioned a bunch of times it's provably little more than "Crap its my first day and I'm new and have been given nothing to work with...uh...English names! There we go."

But yes it can be to make things easier and they cant be bothered with showing basic courtesy.

It's the 21st century. There's no reason to call anyone any name except their given name or whatever nickname they've earned. No person from India or Korea or China or Qatar should have to call themselves Bob or Jim just to make things easier for us.

Quote
Yes I think everyone's experience is of teachers letting students choose their own names, apart from Demartino who has noticed other teachers, not himself of course, forcing names on their students. I wonder how he knew teachers had forced Neocolonialist names on their students. maybe they boasted about it in the staff room afterwards. 
As teachers we talk shop at times or on group chat. Its come up. Like I said, there have been various reasons, most benign. Only one time was it forced. Dude was an old ornery guy though, so...

Online Mister Tim

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2018, 06:21:06 PM »
It's absurd to assume teachers are forcing students to take English names just to make things easier on themselves, and even more absurd to assume it's part of some power dynamic rooted in colonialist thinking or some other nonsense like that. Frankly, it's a little weird that I even have to say that.

As another poster pointed out when mentioning their high school French classes, for many people, it's just... a thing that happens in language classes. That's how their classes were back home, so that's how they conduct their classes here. It's part of the experience. In my high school French and German classes, I was required to choose French and German names. In the Arabic course I took at the Defense Language Institute, I was required to choose an Arabic name. In my university Mandarin and Japanese courses, I was given Chinese and Japanese names (ie I wasn't even presented with a list to choose from). Some of my classmates thought it was fun, and some thought it was dumb. None of them thought it was some terrible thing that shouldn't ever be done to anyone, including the exchange students, which included some Koreans.

A small handful of people on this website are the first people I've ever heard say that it's disrespectful or some sort of human rights violation. In fact, the last time this topic came up on here, I posted about it on facebook to see if anyone I know back home felt the same way, to see if that mindset was somehow more common than I realized. If I was unknowingly doing something that had become socially unacceptable in recent years, I was willing to concede and stop contributing to the problem. However, at least among the people I know, it wasn't seen in a negative light at all.

I can't decide whether to be surprised that someone who's usually contemptuous towards people who see social injustice in places where it wasn't intended arguing against giving students target language names, or to not be surprised because arguing against the practice is exactly the sort of thing a serial contrarian would do.

Online sligo

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2018, 06:58:22 PM »
The psychological aspect of "belonging" to a culture by immersion, is one of the reason why young kids are given English names.  If they have an "identity" within the world, they are more likely to both feel part of it, and strive to attain more. 

Offline some waygug-in

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2018, 08:53:17 PM »
My first class teaching Korean kids was a nightmare trying to control; it all went downhill from there. 8)

I had 1 class of 10 - 12 year olds (I'm guessing); as soon as I reached the front of the classroom

and had turned to face them, they all on cue gave me the finger and screamed "buck yooo" and then

the fun just started.   There was no hope of trying to "control" the students as the manager would side

with the students every time.   My main approach ended up being that I tried to get them to do a couple of

pages in their books  followed by a game (if they were finished).   

There wasn't a lot of "teaching" happening.

Just now saw this comment.  Man I would have walk straight the F out go to the director and say "CORRECT THIS MESS"  No way in hell I'm going to be disrespected like that.  Plus I would get the phone number of all those creeps and have either the director or a Korean friend call and give them an ear full about their damn evil spawn.  F That. I will literal walk out.

Yeah, :laugh:  It was my first job teaching kids, my first week.   Those first 3 months at that place were some of the
toughest times in my life! :huh: >:( :lipsrsealed: :sad: >:( :sad: >:(

  It did get better though as I learned different ways to divert kids' attention.   I needed the
money and I couldn't afford to quit.  (no matter how much I wanted to)

Any and all complaints I made to the director were met with either indifference or I was scolded for not knowing
how to control the classes.  I had zero support from the management.  If I put a kid out of the class, they put him back in and I got a scolding in front of the class.   Whoo hooo, fun times!

By the end of that year though, I did learn a lot about diverting attention, making games educational and fun,
and how to use rewards to get kids to do some classwork.  It was my boot camp, so to speak.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 09:19:17 PM by some waygug-in »

Offline some waygug-in

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2018, 10:37:52 PM »


A friend of mine took over at a hagwon one time, the previous teacher had been a black, inner city fellow and
had given the kids names like 'dog breath'  "#$%^& face"  etc.  :laugh:

I'm sure the kids weren't traumatized by it, they just thought it was a big joke.

 

Online thunderlips

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2018, 08:00:57 AM »


A friend of mine took over at a hagwon one time, the previous teacher had been a black, inner city fellow and
had given the kids names like 'dog breath'  "#$%^& face"  etc.  :laugh:

I'm sure the kids weren't traumatized by it, they just thought it was a big joke.

Why are his race and socioeconomic status needed to be included in your anecdote?

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2018, 08:54:50 AM »


A friend of mine took over at a hagwon one time, the previous teacher had been a black, inner city fellow and
had given the kids names like 'dog breath'  "#$%^& face"  etc.  :laugh:

I'm sure the kids weren't traumatized by it, they just thought it was a big joke.

Why are his race and socioeconomic status needed to be included in your anecdote?

I assume those guys swear and use nicknames more. They certainly seem to in movies and on TV. I'm thinking 'snot boogie' in 'The Wire.'

Online thunderlips

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2018, 09:40:25 AM »


A friend of mine took over at a hagwon one time, the previous teacher had been a black, inner city fellow and
had given the kids names like 'dog breath'  "#$%^& face"  etc.  :laugh:

I'm sure the kids weren't traumatized by it, they just thought it was a big joke.

Why are his race and socioeconomic status needed to be included in your anecdote?

I assume those guys swear and use nicknames more. They certainly seem to in movies and on TV. I'm thinking 'snot boogie' in 'The Wire.'

Yes certainly not like a British gentleman, who of course never swears and doesn't speak in slang.  :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2018, 09:47:48 AM »


A friend of mine took over at a hagwon one time, the previous teacher had been a black, inner city fellow and
had given the kids names like 'dog breath'  "#$%^& face"  etc.  :laugh:

I'm sure the kids weren't traumatized by it, they just thought it was a big joke.

Why are his race and socioeconomic status needed to be included in your anecdote?

I assume those guys swear and use nicknames more. They certainly seem to in movies and on TV. I'm thinking 'snot boogie' in 'The Wire.'

Yes certainly not like a British gentleman, who of course never swears and doesn't speak in slang.  :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

That's kind of the whole point of being a gentleman. That you have better manners than the hoi polloi. If you're talking about British Chavs, I'm sure they swear and use slang just as much as black inner city fellows from the US. Probably don't use nick names in the same way though.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 09:57:40 AM by eggieguffer »

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #54 on: December 07, 2018, 10:24:13 AM »
It's absurd to assume teachers are forcing students to take English names just to make things easier on themselves, and even more absurd to assume it's part of some power dynamic rooted in colonialist thinking or some other nonsense like that. Frankly, it's a little weird that I even have to say that.
Like I said, in most cases the root cause of English names is "Holy crap it's 8:50 and I don't have a lesson...uhhh....English names!" where the only "easier on themselves" is that day's lesson plan. However, particularly amongst a few older teachers, typically really ornery types, this does happen. Talk to any immigrant back home, and they will tell you about the whole name thing and how people will treat you differently and they'll tell you about that boss or coworker who just refused to call them by their real name and dubbed them Sam or Jim or Larry or whoever.

Quote
As another poster pointed out when mentioning their high school French classes, for many people, it's just... a thing that happens in language classes.
It's different with English names. English names get carried outside of the classroom. you're not carrying Hans or Ernesto or whatever out of the classroom unless by chance you end up in Germany or Argentina, and then you only bust it out over drinks. No one will call you that, they'll have the decency to call you by your real name.

Quote
I was required to choose an Arabic name
I'm not sure how Arabic names work, but if there is some sort of special structure to them, I understand. I took Russian and we all had to do Russian names. I understand in this case because of the way they're structured and the nickname that always comes with them. That makes sense.

Quote
Some of my classmates thought it was fun, and some thought it was dumb

Make Chinese the Lingua Franca of the world and Chinese people expecting you to have a Chinese name and addressing you in it and treating you differently based on whether you have a Chinese name and referring to you positively with your Chinese name and negatively with your given name, all while preaching how tolerant, advanced, progressive, and forward-thinking they are and "dumb" might move to "insulting".

Quote
A small handful of people on this website are the first people I've ever heard say that it's disrespectful or some sort of human rights violation.
I didn't hear about it from the website. I heard about it from one of my friends who was Korean. She made a very convincing case. "Why should I have to change my name just to make things easier for non-Koreans? They don't change their names to make things easier for us. That's disrespectful." What can you say to that? Nothing. I gave a really weak defense and had to admit she had a point. It's basic human respect to call someone by their given name and the idea that someone NEEDS an English name is ridiculous.

Quote
However, at least among the people I know, it wasn't seen in a negative light at all.
What if your boss just started referring to you by a Korean name and then the entire office did it. You'd introduce yourself as Tim and they'd just dub you Tae-In or whatever. The only time they would call you Tim is when they were upset or making fun of you. You think you'd have the same attitude?

Quote
I can't decide whether to be surprised that someone who's usually contemptuous towards people who see social injustice in places where it wasn't intended arguing against giving students target language names, or to not be surprised because arguing against the practice is exactly the sort of thing a serial contrarian would do.

There's nothing SJW about the basic human respect of calling someone by their name. Like I said, I've given plenty of examples of it being fine- nicknames/language classes with different naming structures/role-plays/people voluntarily choosing one/etc. etc. and that most people who do this ARE not doing it out of malice. I'm just saying, maybe it's time for us to think about it and how we go about it and make sure that any new teachers DON'T do what some of the older ones did.

Answer me this- How come every time teachers are talking negatively about their students here on waygook.org, they always use a Korean name? It's always "Little Minsoo" or whatever. How come it's never "Little Ashley" or "Little Tyler"?  If we're giving out English names and this is a common practice, then we should be seeing as many "Little Tylers" as "Little Minsoos" or at least SOME, certainly not none.

Or put it this way- "I could teach my class fine but these parents. Next thing you know Little DeMarcus and Little Shaniqua are acting up and causing a problem." What do you think is going on under the surface of a person who says that? Yeah.

Online JNM

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2018, 11:09:58 AM »


Answer me this- How come every time teachers are talking negatively about their students here on waygook.org, they always use a Korean name? It's always "Little Minsoo" or whatever. How come it's never "Little Ashley" or "Little Tyler"?  If we're giving out English names and this is a common practice, then we should be seeing as many "Little Tylers" as "Little Minsoos" or at least SOME, certainly not none.


I remember references to "Little Johnny" back home...
Do you think that those are the actual kid's names?  Minsoo or Johnny.. who grew up and became "John Doe."

Online Mister Tim

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2018, 12:14:13 PM »
Like I said, in most cases the root cause of English names is "Holy crap it's 8:50 and I don't have a lesson...uhhh....English names!" where the only "easier on themselves" is that day's lesson plan.

I won't try to say that that never happens. There are certainly some lazy teachers out there, as there are in any profession. However, I think saying that's the reason in most cases is an over exaggeration and a bit of wearing your bias on your sleeve. That said, though, you said earlier in this thread that that is provably the case, so I'm inviting you to do that now: Prove it. I'm interested in seeing what proof you can provide.

However, particularly amongst a few older teachers, typically really ornery types, this does happen. Talk to any immigrant back home, and they will tell you about the whole name thing and how people will treat you differently and they'll tell you about that boss or coworker who just refused to call them by their real name and dubbed them Sam or Jim or Larry or whoever.

That's a completely different situation and not at all what anyone else here is talking about. We're talking about students living in their home countries having L2 names in their languages classes at school, not immigrants in a new country being expected to go by local names in various aspects of their daily lives.

It's different with English names. English names get carried outside of the classroom. you're not carrying Hans or Ernesto or whatever out of the classroom unless by chance you end up in Germany or Argentina, and then you only bust it out over drinks. No one will call you that, they'll have the decency to call you by your real name.

Is that honestly what you think? Do you think that once English class is over, a student's friends continue to call him by his English name? His family at home? His coworkers at the GS25? I really don't think that's the case at all. Once English class is over, Tyler goes right back to being Minsoo. They aren't "carrying it outside the class" any more than I expected anyone to call me Olivier outside of French class.

I'm not sure how Arabic names work, but if there is some sort of special structure to them, I understand. I took Russian and we all had to do Russian names. I understand in this case because of the way they're structured and the nickname that always comes with them. That makes sense.

There's a purpose for using English names in the classroom, too. It helps familiarize the students with a variety of common English names, while also giving them the opportunity to practice pronouncing them. It can also add to a sense of immersion, as someone mentioned earlier, though I suspect that effect might be limited depending on the scope and level of the class. I don't think it's a mandatory or even necessary aspect of teaching English (the vast majority of my classes and schools haven't had English names), but it's not completely pointless.

Make Chinese the Lingua Franca of the world and Chinese people expecting you to have a Chinese name and addressing you in it and treating you differently based on whether you have a Chinese name and referring to you positively with your Chinese name and negatively with your given name, all while preaching how tolerant, advanced, progressive, and forward-thinking they are and "dumb" might move to "insulting".

Even if Chinese were the global Lingua Franca, I'd have no problem taking a Chinese name in a Chinese language classroom. The other situation you're describing, where a person is expected to take and use their new name in other aspects of their lives, is again not at all the situation being discussed here. We're talking about Mrs. Johnson giving Yuna an English name for English class, not Franco requiring schools to punish Xabier for speaking Basque.

I didn't hear about it from the website. I heard about it from one of my friends who was Korean. She made a very convincing case. "Why should I have to change my name just to make things easier for non-Koreans? They don't change their names to make things easier for us. That's disrespectful." What can you say to that? Nothing. I gave a really weak defense and had to admit she had a point. It's basic human respect to call someone by their given name and the idea that someone NEEDS an English name is ridiculous.

Your friend is absolutely in the right to complain, if she's talking about people outside of a language classroom environment expecting her to go by a name other than any name she wishes to go by. If she's talking about an English classroom, though, she's pretty far off the mark, and wandering into SJW territory. She isn't being forced to assimilate into a new culture, she's being asked to use an English name in an English language classroom for 45 minutes. If there are people involved who insist on continuing to use the new name outside of class despite her objections, they're assholes.

If she just thinks it's dumb to have to go by a new name in class, fair play. Not everyone enjoys that aspect of those language classes that employ it. Dumb, okay. Silly, corny, goofy, of little use? I suppose I can sympathize. But disrespectful? Denying a basic human right? Nonsense.

What if your boss just started referring to you by a Korean name and then the entire office did it. You'd introduce yourself as Tim and they'd just dub you Tae-In or whatever. The only time they would call you Tim is when they were upset or making fun of you. You think you'd have the same attitude?

I realize I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but again, that isn't the same situation at all. An office is not a language classroom. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt an assume you realize that by now, and hope you don't continue to beat that strawman as this discussion continues.

There's nothing SJW about the basic human respect of calling someone by their name. Like I said, I've given plenty of examples of it being fine- nicknames/language classes with different naming structures/role-plays/people voluntarily choosing one/etc. etc. and that most people who do this ARE not doing it out of malice. I'm just saying, maybe it's time for us to think about it and how we go about it and make sure that any new teachers DON'T do what some of the older ones did.

You're right, most teachers aren't doing it out of malice, because it isn't an inherently malicious thing to do. I won't deny that any teacher has ever done it disrespectfully, because alongside the lazy people you find in every profession, you also find disrespectful a55holes. I don't think their existence completely negates the practice of using L2 names in an L2 classroom, though. Calling out the entire practice as being a disrespectful denial of human dignity and calling for its abolition is high-caliber overreacting and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

If you just want to make a case for not forcing new names onto people out of cultural oppression or bigotry, I'll be right there alongside you. I don't think that's what's happening in language classrooms, though.

Answer me this- How come every time teachers are talking negatively about their students here on waygook.org, they always use a Korean name? It's always "Little Minsoo" or whatever. How come it's never "Little Ashley" or "Little Tyler"?  If we're giving out English names and this is a common practice, then we should be seeing as many "Little Tylers" as "Little Minsoos" or at least SOME, certainly not none.

I would assume because we as English teachers are capable of realizing that our students have Korean names that they go by outside of the classroom, because we don't expect them to take it with them when they leave. In the classroom, it's a teaching tool. On a website talking about our students, it'd just create ambiguity.

I can see how doing so might seem insulting to some, though. It can definitely seem condescending, but that depends pretty heavily on the attitude of the person talking, and the tone of the post or conversation. Either way, that's not an indictment of the practice of using L2 names in a language classroom.

Or put it this way- "I could teach my class fine but these parents. Next thing you know Little DeMarcus and Little Shaniqua are acting up and causing a problem." What do you think is going on under the surface of a person who says that? Yeah.

I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to enforce here. That some people are sh!tty and let their biases creep into various aspects of their lives? That some people will use their bigotry or small-mindedness to exert some perceived authority as a teacher? You won't find me arguing against the existence of such people.  If you're trying to imply that a person who behaves like that is the same as a TEFL teacher asking his students to call eachother by English names for 45 minutes a week, then you're going to have to expand on your point a bit to clarify how it's at all accurate and/or relevant.

Online tylerthegloob

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2018, 12:38:36 PM »
It's different with English names. English names get carried outside of the classroom. you're not carrying Hans or Ernesto or whatever out of the classroom unless by chance you end up in Germany or Argentina, and then you only bust it out over drinks. No one will call you that, they'll have the decency to call you by your real name.

Is that honestly what you think? Do you think that once English class is over, a student's friends continue to call him by his English name? His family at home? His coworkers at the GS25? I really don't think that's the case at all. Once English class is over, Tyler goes right back to being Minsoo. They aren't "carrying it outside the class" any more than I expected anyone to call me Olivier outside of French class.


Answer me this- How come every time teachers are talking negatively about their students here on waygook.org, they always use a Korean name? It's always "Little Minsoo" or whatever. How come it's never "Little Ashley" or "Little Tyler"?  If we're giving out English names and this is a common practice, then we should be seeing as many "Little Tylers" as "Little Minsoos" or at least SOME, certainly not none.

I feel personally attacked.
1) I'd like to be known as (the one and only) BIG Tyler.
2) There's a saying in Busan - I know it's in Seoul, probably in Busan - that says, Tyler me once, shame on - shame on you. Tyler me - you can't be Minsoo again.

edit: i don't think it's a super big deal to give students english names as long as you're not a dick about it (and you let people opt out if they realllllly have a problem with it). i personally just use their korean names, but it doesn't seem super problematic to encourage using english names too.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 12:40:15 PM by tylerthegloob »

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2018, 01:05:02 PM »
Like I said, in most cases the root cause of English names is "Holy crap it's 8:50 and I don't have a lesson...uhhh....English names!" where the only "easier on themselves" is that day's lesson plan.

I won't try to say that that never happens. There are certainly some lazy teachers out there, as there are in any profession. However, I think saying that's the reason in most cases is an over exaggeration and a bit of wearing your bias on your sleeve. That said, though, you said earlier in this thread that that is provably the case, so I'm inviting you to do that now: Prove it. I'm interested in seeing what proof you can provide.
I can't prove it.

However, I am trying to be generous in saying "most cases" because I want to emphasize that I believe most teachers do not do this out of malice or an attempt to control or humiliate or make things easier or anything of that sort.

And as I mentioned, the last second part is the fact that they get a class dumped on them with little warning or little prep time or assistance and they have to come up with something on the spot. Do you want me to prove to you that such happens frequently in Korea or can we skip the poll question and accept that as a given?

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That's a completely different situation and not at all what anyone else here is talking about. We're talking about students living in their home countries having L2 names in their languages classes at school, not immigrants in a new country being expected to go by local names in various aspects of their daily lives.
And I'm saying that just as some people have that attitude back home, surprise surprise, some of those ornery types can make it over here to teach.

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Is that honestly what you think? Do you think that once English class is over, a student's friends continue to call him by his English name? His family at home? His coworkers at the GS25? I really don't think that's the case at all. Once English class is over, Tyler goes right back to being Minsoo. They aren't "carrying it outside the class" any more than I expected anyone to call me Olivier outside of French class.

They can carry it with them when they move overseas or if they ever meet foreigners on the street or any number of things.

Like I said, I was told about this from a Korean student herself. "What's wrong with my name? Why do I need a different name?" Seriously dude, wtf are you supposed to say to someone who says that? That they don't have a point? Can you not listen to what they're saying and say "Hey, maybe you're onto something. I didn't realize that, but you've given me something to think about."

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There's a purpose for using English names in the classroom, too. It helps familiarize the students with a variety of common English names, while also giving them the opportunity to practice pronouncing them. It can also add to a sense of immersion
Like I said, I agree with languages like Russian, where there really is a distinct name structure that you need to familiarize yourself with.

Anyways, isn't Mohammed the most common English name in England these days? Or is that not English? Is someone with the name Mohammed not a real English/American person? If we're going to "familiarize" people with common English/American names, we should be naming them Ali, Carlos, Amit, Ignacio, DeAndre, and so on. Or are the only "real" English names James, Thomas, Michael, Jeffrey, etc.?

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I'd have no problem taking a Chinese name in a Chinese language classroom.
Depends on the context. Right now? No problem. If the Chinese were pushing us around? Yeah, I might tell them to take their Chinese name and shove it up their ass.

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. She isn't being forced to assimilate into a new culture, she's being asked to use an English name in an English language classroom for 45 minutes.
What ****** difference does it make? Does any other class not function because you don't have an English name? Does your biology lecture or Arts & Crafts class IN ENGLISH not function because you don't have an English name? Sure, let the kids do it if they want. Heck, go ahead and encourage nicknames and role-plays (more immersive), but ask a student to come up with one? Why? What's wrong with the name they have?

"What do you do if that student says 'No', I like my name the way it is"?

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But disrespectful?
Yeah, it's pretty g- damn disrespectful not to call someone by their name and ask them to go by a different one.

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I don't think that's what's happening in language classrooms, though.
I agree that it seems to be in significant decline. It seemed like it was pretty common when it first started (hence why I wasn't even aware it was a problem at first). I've noticed more and more, teachers won't do it. Why won't they? I think there's been some kind of feedback there.

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I would assume because we as English teachers are capable of realizing that our students have Korean names that they go by outside of the classroom, because we don't expect them to take it with them when they leave
But we're talking about those kids and their behavior IN THE CLASSROOM. Yet, it's always "little Minsoo" as the negative term. And as I said, when telling stories ABOUT TEACHING, some NETs will use the English names when speaking positively, and the Korean names when speaking negatively. Why is it NEVER 'Little Ashley' or 'Little Tyler'...er...'Taylor'...er...(draws random waygook.org name)...Little '#basedcowboyshirt?'

Are students with English names going to be treated more favorably? Is there going to be a natural affinity?

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.  If you're trying to imply that a person who behaves like that is the same as a TEFL teacher asking his students to call eachother by English names for 45 minutes a week, then you're going to have to expand on your point a bit to clarify how it's at all accurate and/or relevant.
I'm saying that maybe there's teachers out there that haven't given the issue much thought and that maybe they should give it some more thought and perhaps they should SERIOUSLY consider the implications of the whole name thing.

There's my one friend who mentioned it strongly, a few others who have made passing remarks (There's also a whole bunch of people who could care less or are happy to have an English name), and I've seen the issue alluded to in a couple of movies.

At the end of the day, why not just call a student by their name?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 01:27:22 PM by Mr.DeMartino »

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #59 on: December 07, 2018, 01:12:46 PM »
Well honestly names do matter.  And it is disrespectful to slap on an English name or any other name to a person just to make yourself comfortable.
Case in point:  I had a foreign student at my travel school who was from India (not from India but changed to protect them) 
By the way, the student I'm talking about did not have this name but had another name that sounded like a Spanish name so this is the best example I could come up with without exposing that student.
Now without giving out too much info let's say this student was name Rahul (pronounced Ra Hool)
Well my co-teacher kept calling him Raul (Pronounced Ra Rule)  which for most North Americans you would know that this is a Spanish name.  This student kept correcting my co-teacher and they did NOT seem very happy being called by a different name that represented a different ethnicity.  Even I would speak privately to my co-teacher to let them know that you are changing who they are when you pronounce it that way.  Butchering, altering and disregarding someone's name minimizes that person and who they are. 
Btw, my Larry example was from an incident I witness first hand when I introduced one of my Korean friends to this loud mouth acquaintance that couldn't be bothered to listen to my friend’s name
Korean Friend: Hi my name is Hui Kyeong 희경.
B***: What?? (Glass of whiskey in hand)
KF: Hui Keyong
B: Nope not calling you that, you’re Larry!
KF: Well I do have an English name, it's Richard
B: Fine calling you Rich
 :rolleyes:  The hell!?!? 

Names matter and how we approach this does have an impact on how that person feels about themselves.  Now if your Korean student comes up to you and says "Teacher, my name is David,” then feel free to call them David.  As long as it's not "Teacher my name is E-mart, no no It's Headshot, no no it's Sil bah Dragon Silver Dragon( :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Which I've had a couple of times and made me stop allowing my kids to make up their own "English" names to stop this madness) then fine that's cool that your kids have provided you with a name they have chosen for themselves.  All I'm trying to say that yes the name activity can be fun and enriching if you show your kids a diverse examples of names to choose from and help them understand that picking a name for themselves is important if that's what they want to do.  I've also had students in my past who gave themselves names like Sergio, Antonio, Malik, and Obama (yes I really did have an Obama, he was at one of my temp college summer camps I did)  That's fine!  Because those were names they thought carefully for themselves.  I didn't choose their name from a list or pull it out of a bag.  However, usually what I do on my first day with new kids is I always get them to write their Korean names in English 민준 Min June or Min Joon however they like.  My students were always were more curious about what their name looks like in English then me slapping them with a sticker that reads "Hello my name is Larry because my teacher is too lazy to learn how to say my birth name" 
Actress discloses why she refused to change her Nigerian name
http://www.pulse.ng/entertainment/celebrities/uzo-aduba-actress-discloses-why-she-refused-to-change-her-nigerian-name-id6843254.html
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I came home one day from school and I said to my mum can you call me 'Zoe'. She stopped cooking and said "Why?" If they can learn to say Tchaikovsky and Dostoyevsky, then they can learn to say Uzoamaka.
Just something to think about. 

Btw I do get the whole French class, Russian class name debate.  I guess that never bothered me because when I took French and Spanish in college there were French and Spanish equivalants to my name so I was unbothered.  I'd only chose to take a name if there was a language equivalant, Otherwise, sorry NOPE not naming myself Farah or Weifa if I'm going to be in this Arabic class. 


« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 01:55:57 PM by Piggydee »