December 12, 2018, 11:59:39 PM


Author Topic: Attitude towards foreign teachers  (Read 3460 times)

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2018, 01:25:56 PM »
Well said Piggydee and that article makes the point.

As I've said, I have talked about "shoe on the other foot" and that's my angle here.

If the Chinese were the dominant power and running things in Chinese and in schools in America, all kids had to study Chinese and their Chinese teacher was giving them Chinese names and telling my son he had to have a Chinese name and that was his name in the class OR ELSE, I'd tell that Chinese teacher to take his Chinese name and shove it up his Chinese ass and I'd hope my son would be there to watch me say it.

His grades may suffer, but at least he'd have respect for himself and his father.

Not singling out the Chinese here, substitute with Russian or French or Korean or Portuguese etc. etc.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 01:31:48 PM by Mr.DeMartino »

Online zola

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2018, 01:40:59 PM »
Well said Piggydee and that article makes the point.

As I've said, I have talked about "shoe on the other foot" and that's my angle here.

If the Chinese were the dominant power and running things in Chinese and in schools in America, all kids had to study Chinese and their Chinese teacher was giving them Chinese names and telling my son he had to have a Chinese name and that was his name in the class OR ELSE, I'd tell that Chinese teacher to take his Chinese name and shove it up his Chinese ass and I'd hope my son would be there to watch me say it.

His grades may suffer, but at least he'd have respect for himself and his father.

Not singling out the Chinese here, substitute with Russian or French or Korean or Portuguese etc. etc.

But the issue is, this NEVER happens. Or if it does it's done by some absolute weirdo. It is not the norm. And I doubt it ever has been. I've worked in esl since 2002 in 8 different countries, I've never had a co-worker who did this. Give out English names? Sure. Forced them upon kids and punish them for not using them? Never, ever, in 16 years.

If I was learning Chinese I would not be surprised if they gave me a Chinese name to use in class. It happened in Russian class and Maori class when I was at school.
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Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2018, 02:08:29 PM »
But the issue is, this NEVER happens. Or if it does it's done by some absolute weirdo. It is not the norm. And I doubt it ever has been. I've worked in esl since 2002 in 8 different countries, I've never had a co-worker who did this
I agree it's not the norm.

Also, there's the cases where it wasn't an explicitly "OR ELSE" but remember we're dealing with students and some of them may be reluctant to confront their teacher about it, even though they're bothered by it. If you have teachers who are more on the disciplinarian side of things, that might make students more reluctant to do it even though if push came to shove, the teacher would probably relent, they nonetheless aren't giving students a completely open choice in the matter.

"I'm not saying you HAVE to have an English name, just that I'll be friendlier to those students with one, and more apt to remember their names." can be the implicit message.

I say, just skip all of that and address them by their given names.

Offline Piggydee

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2018, 02:08:58 PM »
Another reason why I stopped using English names when I teach here in Korea is because my first year at my second public school I used to talk to my co-teacher about my students and she could never keep up. 

Me:"CoT I need to talk to you about Alex and his behavior in my class." 
CoT: Who's Alex? :huh: :huh:
Me:  지후
CoT: Oh okay!
Me: I also need to talk to you about Emma.
CoT:  Who's Emma?  :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh:
Me: 예림

 :rolleyes: :rolleyes:  From that point on I told my students I would no longer call them by their English names and I need to learn their Korean names in order to communicate with my co-teacher.  It's been a couple of years now and I have yet to use English names with any of the two schools I work at.   

And not for nothing but I'm sure most of us waygs do have Korean names that we used if we ever attended Korean Language schools.  I used both my birth name and my Korean name.  My Korean teachers always got a kick out of seeing that I had a Korean name but in reality she just called me by my government name  :afro:

Oh going back to my "Indian" student, I never gave that student an English name.  They simply went by their birth name but with it Hangulized. 

I'm curious?  Being that Korea is becoming more globlized; for some of you on Team English Name, let's say you had a non-Korean kid in your class.  Are you going to give them an English name just because your entire class was given English names?  Just want your thoughts on that.  So far, some of my friends who do have foreign students in their class (most times they tend to be students from the Indus region India, Pakistan, etc) tend to just stick with their given names despite the fact that their hakwon presses for an all English name formation. 

« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 02:21:37 PM by Piggydee »

Offline tylerthegloob

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2018, 02:21:41 PM »

I'm curious?  Being that Korea is becoming more globlized for some of you on Team English Name, let's say you had a non-Korean kid in your class.  Are you going to give them an English name just because your entire class was given English names?  Just want your thoughts on that.  So far, some of my friends who do have foreign students in their class (most times they tend to be students from the Indus region India, Pakistan, etc) tend to just stick with their given names despite the fact that their hakwon presses for an all English name formation.

I don't really have a horse in this race, but I am stumped. I've never assigned English names, but if I did... what would I do? Great question.

Online Mister Tim

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2018, 02:22:51 PM »
I can't prove it.

Hey look, we agree about something.  :laugh:

And as I mentioned, the last second part is the fact that they get a class dumped on them with little warning or little prep time or assistance and they have to come up with something on the spot. Do you want me to prove to you that such happens frequently in Korea or can we skip the poll question and accept that as a given?

So this is the argument you're making?:

A: People often have classes dumped on them with little prep time.
B: A "pick an English name" lesson is a lesson one can easily prepare at the last moment.
Therefore, C: Most people who use English names in class do so because they're lazy and pulled it out at the last minute.

I just want to make sure that's what you're saying here.

And I'm saying that just as some people have that attitude back home, surprise surprise, some of those ornery types can make it over here to teach.

And I'm not denying that. I'm just denying that that calls into question the entire practice of using L2 names in a language classroom.

They can carry it with them when they move overseas or if they ever meet foreigners on the street or any number of things.

Yes, they can. As can anyone who gets a new name in any other language class. You yourself said that "you're not carrying Hans or Ernesto or whatever out of the classroom unless by chance you end up in Germany or Argentina," though you prefaced that with "It's different with English names." So which is it? Because that doesn't sound different. You have a name you use in that classroom, but you don't use it outside of the classroom unless you find yourself in a situation you deem appropriate to use it. Minsoo can tell his new American friend to call him Tyler, and I can tell my new Egyptian friend to call me Azzam.

Like I said, I was told about this from a Korean student herself. "What's wrong with my name? Why do I need a different name?" Seriously dude, wtf are you supposed to say to someone who says that? That they don't have a point? Can you not listen to what they're saying and say "Hey, maybe you're onto something. I didn't realize that, but you've given me something to think about."

What are you supposed to say to someone who says something like that? Let's try to come up with something.

Teacher: "Okay, today we're going to pick English names that we'll use in the classroom for the rest of the semester."
Student: "What's wrong with my Korean name?"
T: "Nothing at all! Your Korean names are all lovely."
S: "Then why do I need a different name?"
T: "This is an English classroom, so I'd like us all to practice using English names with each other."
S: "I don't want to use an English name."
T: "Why is that?"
S: "Because I feel that being asked to go by another name disrespects me and my culture. I would prefer to use my own name."
T: "Oh, I'm sorry you feel that way. It was never my intention to offend. If you don't feel comfortable using an English name, I won't force you to. If anyone else is uncomfortable using a different name, you don't have to, either. For those who would still like to, here's a list of names you can use to get some ideas."

And then that's how it can play out every time, if necessary. I wouldn't expect a teacher to end the practice, because it isn't inherently disrespectful. I suspect most students don't think it's disrespectful, but it's reasonable to accommodate the students who do without needing to end the practice altogether.

Anyways, isn't Mohammed the most common English name in England these days? Or is that not English? Is someone with the name Mohammed not a real English/American person? If we're going to "familiarize" people with common English/American names, we should be naming them Ali, Carlos, Amit, Ignacio, DeAndre, and so on. Or are the only "real" English names James, Thomas, Michael, Jeffrey, etc.?

That's also a separate (and much more interesting  :laugh:) issue. If one wants to argue that the use of English names in English classroom is pointless because the very concept of an "English name" has become so nebulous as to be meaningless, then they can have at it. I could see merits to both sides of the issue there, honestly. However, that's got nothing to do with calling for an end to L2 names because one believes it violates basic human rights.


Depends on the context. Right now? No problem. If the Chinese were pushing us around? Yeah, I might tell them to take their Chinese name and shove it up their ass.

I don't doubt that you might. That wouldn't be my reaction, but we're clearly different people. I'd bristle and perhaps resist if I could tell they were genuinely trying to belittle and marginalize me by forcing a name in a Chinese classroom, but I think it's unlikely that that'd be the case, just as I think it's unlikely to be the case in an English classroom.


What ****** difference does it make? Does any other class not function because you don't have an English name? Does your biology lecture or Arts & Crafts class IN ENGLISH not function because you don't have an English name? Sure, let the kids do it if they want. Heck, go ahead and encourage nicknames and role-plays (more immersive), but ask a student to come up with one? Why? What's wrong with the name they have?

Has anyone said English class would cease to function without the use of English names? If someone did, I apologize. I must've missed it. I would've told them that no, obviously, English class will not fall apart if students don't have English names. That of course would make it irrelevant that no other subject classes fall apart based on the origin of the names its students use. It's worth pointing out, though, that my biology lecture would also not cease to function if my professor wanted us all to have Latin taxonomy-related names, for some reason.

And again, though I only made the point earlier in this post, there's nothing wrong with their own names. If they insist on using those and not choosing an English name, that's fine. If a teacher continued to insist on it even after a student's objections, I'd say that teacher was in the wrong. However, I don't think that makes the practice as a whole a bad thing, and think there's a difference between "Teachers shouldn't force English names onto students who don't want them" and "Teachers shouldn't use English names in English class."

Yeah, it's pretty g- damn disrespectful not to call someone by their name and ask them to go by a different one.

I think we're just not going to be able to agree on that point. I think it's disrespectful to force the issue against someone's wishes, but not the general act of asking someone to go by a different one. To summarize:

Asking to use a different one in class: Fine! No offense intended, and an acceptable request given the circumstances.

Insisting a student use one despite their moral objections: Not fine! That's acting unreasonably and not respecting your student's feelings.

But we're talking about those kids and their behavior IN THE CLASSROOM. Yet, it's always "little Minsoo" as the negative term. And as I said, when telling stories ABOUT TEACHING, some NETs will use the English names when speaking positively, and the Korean names when speaking negatively. Why is it NEVER 'Little Ashley' or 'Little Tyler'...er...'Taylor'...er...(draws random waygook.org name)...Little '#basedcowboyshirt?'

Are students with English names going to be treated more favorably? Is there going to be a natural affinity?

This really is a tangent, and I'm not entirely interested in jumping onto this derail, but I'll add some thoughts:

We're talking about their behavior in the classroom, yes, but we're talking about them outside the classroom to other people who don't know the students from that classroom perspective. At any rate, I think that's a non-issue, because as someone pointed out earlier, it's just using a generic Korean placeholder name, much like "little Johnny" would be used back home.

One can certainly cry foul about using generic stereotype names like that, of course. In fact, it'd be interesting to see what some people have to say about it, and about which names they use to refer to students when talking about them outside of the classroom, and why. Perhaps you can start a thread about it? That'd be appropriate, since it's not really relevant to whether or not the general act of using L2 names in a classroom is something that should just never be done.

I'm saying that maybe there's teachers out there that haven't given the issue much thought and that maybe they should give it some more thought and perhaps they should SERIOUSLY consider the implications of the whole name thing.

I agree, it's something a teacher should keep in mind. That way, the teacher won't be caught off guard or surprised when he or she has a student who doesn't want to use an English name. That information can be used to allow the teacher to be more understanding and compassionate, and not force the issue.

However, since I still maintain that there are no inherent "implications of the whole name thing" in some overarching negative sense, I think that's about the only takeaway a teacher can have from giving the issue proper consideration.

There's my one friend who mentioned it strongly, a few others who have made passing remarks (There's also a whole bunch of people who could care less or are happy to have an English name), and I've seen the issue alluded to in a couple of movies.

And fair play to them, if they spoke up and opted out of the practice for personal reasons, especially if they realize that that's what they are: Personal reasons.

And shame on any teacher who opted to be a dick and pressed the issue despite the students' objections.

At the end of the day, why not just call a student who doesn't wish to go by another name* by their name?

Agreed, with the proper alteration.

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2018, 02:24:23 PM »
Me:"CoT I need to talk to you about Alex and his behavior in my class." 
CoT: Who's Alex? :huh: :huh:
Me:  지후
CoT: Oh okay!
Me: I also need to talk to you about Emma.
CoT:  Who's Emma?  :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh:
Me: 예림

I hear yah. Between this and the other incidents you mentioned, I can't help but notice that both you and I had a first-hand experience where this was an issue and we noticed the obvious discomfort it caused. And much like you, I didn't really think it was an issue before I saw it happen before my eyes.

Both of us came to the same conclusion after- there was something fundamentally wrong with the way it was being done. Like a basic level of human respect was not being shown and there wasn't really a compelling argument to continue doing it. And also, we both obviously understand that there are plenty of exceptions- different naming conventions, voluntary use of names, nicknames, role-plays, etc.

If we both have students who have been bothered by this, and we see stories in the media about other people dealing with this issue, it has to be out there and maybe we should encourage our students to express their opinions on the matter. Like I said, I have plenty of students who could care less or embraced it, and we need to let them have their fun too, but we also have to remember that we're dealing with kids who may have trouble understanding the context of things and not recognize that a teacher who is just trying to come up with an activity isn't telling them there is something wrong with their name.

So yeah, I think what our message is, is something along these lines- Please don't dismiss this out of hand. Please really think about it because it IS an issue that we have experienced and before you do anything involving names, take some time to think it out and structure it and make sure students understand this is voluntary and for fun and they won't be treated differently or judged on it. That and take some time to think about what is an "English name".

I know I'm repeating myself, but there was something really profound and persuasive about the name thing when my friend told me about it. I think most people here would have a vastly different perspective if they had such a conversation and really listened to someone else who has experienced this both inside and outside of the classroom.

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #67 on: December 07, 2018, 02:29:14 PM »
Quote
If the Chinese were the dominant power and running things in Chinese and in schools in America, all kids had to study Chinese and their Chinese teacher was giving them Chinese names and telling my son he had to have a Chinese name and that was his name in the class OR ELSE, I'd tell that Chinese teacher to take his Chinese name and shove it up his Chinese ass and I'd hope my son would be there to watch me say it.

Except, the English are not the dominant power, the English language is the dominant language.


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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2018, 02:29:28 PM »
I'm curious?  Being that Korea is becoming more globlized; for some of you on Team English Name, let's say you had a non-Korean kid in your class.  Are you going to give them an English name just because your entire class was given English names?  Just want your thoughts on that.  So far, some of my friends who do have foreign students in their class (most times they tend to be students from the Indus region India, Pakistan, etc) tend to just stick with their given names despite the fact that their hakwon presses for an all English name formation.

If their name isn't an English name, I'd give them one. (Hypothetically. As I said before, most of my classes haven't had them.)

In my university Mandarin class, there were students from the US (duh), Croatia, Chile, and Italy, with names reflecting that. We were all given Chinese names to use in the classroom. The point isn't to only single out the locals by forcing them to use a new name, it's to have all of the students in the classroom use L2 names.

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2018, 02:34:40 PM »
Between this and the other incidents you mentioned, I can't help but notice that both you and I had a first-hand experience where this was an issue and we noticed the obvious discomfort it caused. And much like you, I didn't really think it was an issue before I saw it happen before my eyes.

Both of us came to the same conclusion after- there was something fundamentally wrong with the way it was being done. Like a basic level of human respect was not being shown and there wasn't really a compelling argument to continue doing it. And also, we both obviously understand that there are plenty of exceptions- different naming conventions, voluntary use of names, nicknames, role-plays, etc.

If we both have students who have been bothered by this, and we see stories in the media about other people dealing with this issue, it has to be out there and maybe we should encourage our students to express their opinions on the matter. Like I said, I have plenty of students who could care less or embraced it, and we need to let them have their fun too, but we also have to remember that we're dealing with kids who may have trouble understanding the context of things and not recognize that a teacher who is just trying to come up with an activity isn't telling them there is something wrong with their name.

So yeah, I think what our message is, is something along these lines- Please don't dismiss this out of hand. Please really think about it because it IS an issue that we have experienced and before you do anything involving names, take some time to think it out and structure it and make sure students understand this is voluntary and for fun and they won't be treated differently or judged on it. That and take some time to think about what is an "English name".

I know I'm repeating myself, but there was something really profound and persuasive about the name thing when my friend told me about it. I think most people here would have a vastly different perspective if they had such a conversation and really listened to someone else who has experienced this both inside and outside of the classroom.

I think this demonstrates that I really should bow out now. I've tried to approach it logically and at least thought I was trying to take a reasonable and considerate approach, but if your side of the discussion is just going to be "I've experienced something you haven't, so you're incapable of understanding the way things really are," then I'm not sure there's anything else I can contribute to the topic.

Have a nice weekend, folks.

Offline Piggydee

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2018, 02:41:14 PM »
I'm curious?  Being that Korea is becoming more globlized; for some of you on Team English Name, let's say you had a non-Korean kid in your class.  Are you going to give them an English name just because your entire class was given English names?  Just want your thoughts on that.  So far, some of my friends who do have foreign students in their class (most times they tend to be students from the Indus region India, Pakistan, etc) tend to just stick with their given names despite the fact that their hakwon presses for an all English name formation.

If their name isn't an English name, I'd give them one. (Hypothetically. As I said before, most of my classes haven't had them.)

In my university Mandarin class, there were students from the US (duh), Croatia, Chile, and Italy, with names reflecting that. We were all given Chinese names to use in the classroom. The point isn't to only single out the locals by forcing them to use a new name, it's to have all of the students in the classroom use L2 names.

Welp I don't know but I'd probably not take a Chinese name if I was learning Chinese.  They can call me whatever name they can come up with from Chinese script to say my name (much like what I do here in Korea, I go by a Hangulized form of my name) otherwise sorry Mrs. Chu I'm not going by Feng Mian just so I can be in this class.  Nice name but that's not who I am. 

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2018, 02:42:10 PM »
So this is the argument you're making?:

A: People often have classes dumped on them with little prep time.
B: A "pick an English name" lesson is a lesson one can easily prepare at the last moment.
Therefore, C: Most people who use English names in class do so because they're lazy and pulled it out at the last minute.

I just want to make sure that's what you're saying here.

No, that's not what I said at all. Again, I made the point that this is often the result of them getting dumped into a situation with little notice and/or training. That happens all the time and in no way reflects negatively on the teacher. "Hi welcome to Korea, you're jet-lagged and you start in an hour. Please come up with a lesson."

Quote
T: "Nothing at all! Your Korean names are all lovely."
S: "Then why do I need a different name?"
T: "This is an English classroom, so I'd like us all to practice using English names with each other."
S: "I don't want to use an English name."
T: "Why is that?"
S: "Because I feel that being asked to go by another name disrespects me and my culture. I would prefer to use my own name."
T: "Oh, I'm sorry you feel that way. It was never my intention to offend. If you don't feel comfortable using an English name, I won't force you to. If anyone else is uncomfortable using a different name, you don't have to, either. For those who would still like to, here's a list of names you can use to get some ideas."

Yeah, that works out great for elementary students. I'm sure the majority of them have command of the English language to make such an argument and to challenge their teacher like that.

Quote
If they insist on using those and not choosing an English name, that's fine. If a teacher continued to insist on it even after a student's objections, I'd say that teacher was in the wrong. However, I don't think that makes the practice as a whole a bad thing, and think there's a difference between "Teachers shouldn't force English names onto students who don't want them" and "Teachers shouldn't use English names in English class."
And I agree too on there being appropriate uses which I've mentioned.

But I've moved to the point where I don't think it should ever be an activity done by or encouraged by the teacher unless it has something to do with naming conventions (like in Russia) or perhaps something like "What does my name mean in English?" and then the kids decide to adopt a nickname or something or they do a role-play and after a memorable performance, a kid self-adopts the name of Peter (as in Peter Pan) or whatever. Obviously while we have to have concern, we also can't rush for the pitchforks and torches and kill fun for the kids and the class.

Quote
ut not the general act of asking someone to go by a different one. To summarize:

Asking to use a different one in class: Fine!
Why would you even need to ask? Why would you have any desire to ask? (Again, beyond the other situations listed, and I'm sure there are some good reasons I haven't thought of)

Quote
it's just using a generic Korean placeholder name, much like "little Johnny" would be used back home.
But if we're naming them 'Little Johnny' in the classroom, why don't we call them 'Little Johnny' when talking about their behavior IN THE CLASSROOM. Something is going on there and while in some cases it can come from a place of nothing wrong, I think in other cases it might be indicative of something more troubling.

At the end of the day, why not just call a student who doesn't wish to go by another name* by their name?

Agreed, with the proper alteration.
And again, I've moved on from the point where, in my opinion (and I do want to emphasize that while I feel strongly about this, I do think it's opinion and shouldn't be official policy and in some, probably most, cases, it should not negatively reflect on the teacher) we shouldn't be at that point. We should just be calling students by their normal names and the only reason to call them by something else is THEIR request or some of the other examples I laid out (and certainly some I haven't thought of).

The student should not be the one having to tell the teacher to please call them by their given name. 

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2018, 02:43:48 PM »
Welp I don't know but I'd probably not take a Chinese name if I was learning Chinese.  They can call me whatever name they can come up with from Chinese script to say my name (much like what I do here in Korea, I go by a Hangulized form of my name) otherwise sorry Mrs. Chu I'm not going by Feng Mian just so I can be in this class.  Nice name but that's not who I am.

Apparently, my name turns into Kay-wehn in Mandarin which means Foundation Cloud.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 03:00:59 PM by CO2 »
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Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2018, 02:46:30 PM »
Mister Tim, I want to write this outside of the word salad wall of text that is our back and forth-

I don't want to imply that you are being a bad teacher or coming from a negative place with your point of view. On the contrary, it's clear you've given this a lot of thought and want the best for your students. There's certainly a lot of grey on this and different circumstances and I can imagine there'd be some cases where someone would object to an English name as part of a role-play or as a nickname that arose, and I'd be like "Oh FFS, it's just a role-play" or "Oh FFS, it's Russian class, you NEED to learn how Russian names work and this is the best way." And I really want to stress that the reason this often occurs is we have new, inexperienced teachers, thrust into situations with little assistance by their superiors and colleagues and told to come up with something with little notice, and they're doing their best to try and make things fun and enjoyable and immersive.

At the end of the day, give me a teacher who cares and is putting a lot of effort into an English names lesson over someone who doesn't do it and is watching Netflix instead of coming up with anything. I may disagree, but their care and dedication will overcome any naming problem.

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2018, 02:51:07 PM »
Welp I don't know but I'd probably not take a Chinese name if I was learning Chinese.  They can call me whatever name they can come up with from Chinese script to say my name (much like what I do here in Korea, I go by a Hangulized form of my name) otherwise sorry Mrs. Chu I'm not going by Feng Mian just so I can be in this class.  Nice name but that's not who I am.

Apparently my name turns into Kay-wehn in Mandarin which means Foundation Cloud.

Reminds me of the old Tommy Cooper joke

Apparently, 1 in 5 people in the world is Chinese. And there are 5 people in my family, so it must be one of them. It's either my mum or my dad. Or my older brother Colin. Or my younger brother Ho Cha Chu. But I think it's Colin.


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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #75 on: December 07, 2018, 09:18:00 PM »


A friend of mine took over at a hagwon one time, the previous teacher
had given the kids names like 'dog breath'  "#$%^& face"  etc.  :laugh:

I'm sure the kids weren't traumatized by it, they just thought it was a big joke.

Why are his race and socioeconomic status needed to be included in your anecdote?


No offense intended.    I apologize.

A friend of mine took over at a hagwon one time, the previous teacher
had given the kids names like 'dog breath'  "#$%^& face"  etc.  :laugh:

Better?



« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 09:41:04 PM by some waygug-in »

Online Cyanea

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #76 on: December 09, 2018, 03:22:44 PM »
It's basic human respect to call someone by their given name and the idea that someone NEEDS an English name is ridiculous.

That's not what happens. The management ask the FT's to give English names to the students to make it seem like an english community.

The other point you don't get is that traditionally Koreans use their real names sparingly and reverentially. Reserved for significant social and special events. Their full names are too precious to be used in a relaxed social setting. Notice that if a Korean teacher really wants to shame a student she will berate them using this full name, because they somehow believe the ancestors are watching.

However if a kid takes on a silly foreign name then it basically gives them licence to behave as badly as they like because nobody is watching. Its like giving a mask of anonymity to them. They can act as if anonymous and unaccountable.

This is why the vast majority of students PREFER and chose to use a meaningless foreign name. Its rare indeed to get a student who wants to use their actual Korean name. If they do, usually its a difficult student whose head has been filled with nationalistic propaganda about terrible foreigners opressing poor korean victims or some such negativity.
Catch my drift?

Online JNM

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #77 on: December 09, 2018, 04:03:19 PM »
It's basic human respect to call someone by their given name and the idea that someone NEEDS an English name is ridiculous.

That's not what happens. The management ask the FT's to give English names to the students to make it seem like an english community.

The other point you don't get is that traditionally Koreans use their real names sparingly and reverentially. Reserved for significant social and special events. Their full names are too precious to be used in a relaxed social setting. Notice that if a Korean teacher really wants to shame a student she will berate them using this full name, because they somehow believe the ancestors are watching.

However if a kid takes on a silly foreign name then it basically gives them licence to behave as badly as they like because nobody is watching. Its like giving a mask of anonymity to them. They can act as if anonymous and unaccountable.

This is why the vast majority of students PREFER and chose to use a meaningless foreign name. Its rare indeed to get a student who wants to use their actual Korean name. If they do, usually its a difficult student whose head has been filled with nationalistic propaganda about terrible foreigners opressing poor korean victims or some such negativity.

Middle names in English are similar.

If my mom called for “J.N.M.”,  I knew I was in trouble.

Offline orange6ur1

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #78 on: December 09, 2018, 05:28:07 PM »
...

So is this a thing other people have experienced? Almost as if the students have learnt not to respect the foreign teacher as much? As if they don’t need to take use or our lessons as seriously?

Just to reply to the original discussion, i wll say yeah your thoughts are probably right. While bad students are bad to any teacher who is “weak” (lol for lack of a better word), englisht nets are naturally seen as “fun free time” b/c well...that’s what they’re first introduced to in elementary school so i don’t really blame them.

I teach at a middle school and i quickly learned that i have to put discipline first and mimic korean classroom mgmt. (ie in the beginning of the class, the class president leads the students to greet me like they would to a normal korean teacher. If they’re late or keep chatting they get penalty points and i make them stand in the back. If the class is being so rambunctuous before the lesson even begins i make everyone put their head down and scold them.)

That being said, i don’t expect perfection and ya kinda learn when to yell/scold/express your disappointment and when to just drop it and move on. But that’s just me.

But ive heard horrible horror stories of elementary school students.../shivers.../whispers: good luck w/ that.. :P

Offline Piggydee

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Re: Attitude towards foreign teachers
« Reply #79 on: December 10, 2018, 07:31:06 AM »
It's basic human respect to call someone by their given name and the idea that someone NEEDS an English name is ridiculous.

That's not what happens. The management ask the FT's to give English names to the students to make it seem like an english community.

The other point you don't get is that traditionally Koreans use their real names sparingly and reverentially. Reserved for significant social and special events. Their full names are too precious to be used in a relaxed social setting. Notice that if a Korean teacher really wants to shame a student she will berate them using this full name, because they somehow believe the ancestors are watching.

However if a kid takes on a silly foreign name then it basically gives them licence to behave as badly as they like because nobody is watching. Its like giving a mask of anonymity to them. They can act as if anonymous and unaccountable.

This is why the vast majority of students PREFER and chose to use a meaningless foreign name. Its rare indeed to get a student who wants to use their actual Korean name. If they do, usually its a difficult student whose head has been filled with nationalistic propaganda about terrible foreigners opressing poor korean victims or some such negativity.

Yep when you are working in a hakwon that pushes for English names then it's often times (unless the parents have done so) becomes the foreign teacher's responsibility to create a name for that student.  At one hakwon I worked at I had a new student who didn't want to make an English name.  His name was 민경 so it was easy for me but still before I told my higher ups that he didn't want one I kept encouraging him to take on the name Kevin.  He'd start crying at the idea (this was one of those Kindy hakwons)  So we stuck with his real name.  Then there are the kids that have an English names but they don't response to them  :huh: :huh: :huh:
So here I am squawking out "Matthew get down from there, Matthew! Matthew! MATTHEW!!!"  5 times of me yelling myself horse and it isn't until I approach him face to face he listens.  I complained to the management that he was ignoring his name and that I'd like to learn his Korean name to better get his attention.  I was told that he needed to get used to his name.  A year of teaching that student and he never listened to me.  :cry: :cry:  And don't get me started on the bad boys in my class who wanted me to call them by the names of Kpop Girl band members.  "Teacher call me Tip Panny (Tiffany)"  Unless I see that boy going through an active transition I'm not calling you by a girl's name  >:(

So glad I'm done with hakwons and the name game ridiculousness.   Korean names is all me and my co-teachers deal with.  Plus my travel school co-teachers have to learn 112 of their students names for the grade that they are responsible to teach English to.   (If not more, most English Korean teachers have to learn ALL THE NAMES OF STUDENTS GRADES 3-6.  At my travel school, my co-teachers only have to learn all the names of 2 grade levels)  You think they have time to also learn 112 made up names?  NOPE.  For public school giving out English names is just not practical.   
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 07:45:34 AM by Piggydee »