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Author Topic: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?  (Read 1784 times)

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2018, 06:12:55 PM »
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This is a slippery slope fallacy. People draw lines, and they evaluate where to draw those lines based on how much risk and damage is involved, and how much control people have over that risk and damage. Based on the applying logic, why have laws and regulations at all?

It's not a slippery slope fallacy. The argument was that employees' safety overrides everything else. If you can ban something in your club that'll make the workers safer, but still enable you to keep the club open, you should do it. If this is not the case there's an argument for striking a balance between worker's safety and customers' freedom, as you say. You could argue that in the case of smoking, safety trumps freedom, fair enough, but that's another argument. I'd argue that if the employees are aware of the risk beforehand and choose to work there, safety shouldn't trump freedom.

Also you only have to look at freedom v safety over the last 50 years to see it's very much a slippery slope, showing no signs of stopping. Even 20 years ago, banning people from smoking outside would have seemed absurd. As I mentioned before, there's a very good chance flight attendants/pilots will get alcohol banned on flights due to safety concerns and then what's to stop bar workers asking for the same thing?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 06:47:04 PM by eggieguffer »

Online Chinguetti

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2018, 06:49:31 PM »
It's not a slippery slope fallacy. The argument was that employees' safety overrides everything else. If you can ban something in your club that'll make the workers safer, but still enable you to keep the club open, you should do it. If this is not the case there's an argument for striking a balance between worker's safety and customers' freedom, as you say. You could argue that in the case of smoking, safety trumps freedom, fair enough, but that's another argument. I'd argue that if the employees are aware of the risk beforehand and choose to work there, safety shouldn't trump freedom.

Also you only have to look at freedom v safety over the last 50 years to see it's very much a slippery slope, showing no signs of stopping. Even 20 years ago, banning people from smoking outside would have seemed absurd. As I mentioned before, there's a very good chance flight attendants/pilots will get alcohol banned on flights due to safety concerns and then what's to stop bar workers asking for the same thing?

It is if you're trying to use it as a basis for arguing, "If you do this, then what's to stop this and this from happening?" while ignoring the key differences between why this happens vs why that happens.

Banning alcohol from a club could be justifed by many as a safety precaution. But it's also considered unnecessary if the club is populated by adults and strictly enforces the regulations (both for safety and for alcohol distribution/consumption) as dictated by the law. The risk assessment is considered adequately low enough to allow for it so long as its sale and consumption is kept closely monitored and controlled. If people could get "contact drunk" by being around alcohol, though, you can bet that this would dramatically change the law.

Banning smoking is for health AND safety because no one can help breathing it in, and people shouldn't be forced to.

Aaaaand, we're also not talking about outright bans, or at least I'm not. I'm talking about banning it to designated areas in places where both smokers and non-smokers congregate. Other controlled substances (and activities) are treated the same way, when they have a direct impact on others. This is why it's illegal to drink and drive. This is why people can't strip in the middle of the street. This is why you enjoy the many protections that prevent others from abusing you with their "freedoms".

If a place of business decides that having and maintaining a designated smoking area is not worth the cost and effort, that's its choice.

As for freedom vs safety, it's a balancing act, and a lot of what we do now is based on what we've learned along the way. You have this guy's right to do "whatever he wants," but you also have this other person's right not to have to pay for that guy's personal decisions. When you're living in a society with others where your actions can have a harmful impact on them, compromises (and therefore losses of some freedoms) are required. Sometimes this harm is debatable, and that's when you get a lot of gray back and forth. But other times it's very black and white, and it's time to accept change. I'm all for banning alcohol on planes. It doesn't belong up there. Planes aren't bars, and there's a whole lot more that can go wrong up there. It's a pressurized cabin with nowhere to go, where children and the elderly are also present.

I'm against banning alcohol from bars, though, because... they're bars. That's the point of the business.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 07:09:17 PM by Chinguetti »

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2018, 07:03:03 PM »
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I'm all for banning alcohol on planes. It doesn't belong up there. Planes aren't bars, and there's a whole lot more than can go wrong as a result of some drunken patron.

So now you see what I mean by a slippery slope? There are plenty of other places that aren't bars that serve drinks that you, or someone else, could make a case for banning. A train isn't a bar, nor is a ship or a limousine. Why have bars in an airport when people are going to get on a plane? etc.. etc..
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 07:19:49 PM by eggieguffer »

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2018, 07:23:31 PM »
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I'm all for banning alcohol on planes. It doesn't belong up there. Planes aren't bars, and there's a whole lot more than can go wrong as a result of some drunken patron.

So now you see what I mean by a slippery slope? There are plenty of other places that aren't bars that serve drinks that you or someone else could make a case for banning.

Not really. By your logic we should allow it anywhere, or else we'll end up banning it everywhere.

There's more than one slippery slope. It's a fallacy because it doesn't acknowledge compromise or a middle ground, and doesn't have much basis outside of fear-mongering.

What I'm talking about is risk assessment. Calculated risk and exposure. It goes back and forth depending on changing views that are further based on what we come to learn from experience and/or science.

Alcohol doesn't belong on a plane. It's a pressurized cabin, up in the air, with people from all backgrounds crammed into a tight space and with nowhere to run to if things go wrong. It's difficult to monitor and to control, and flight attendants weren't hired to be bartenders. They're hired to keep people safe. That's actually their job. All that service bullshit that they do is secondary.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 07:28:55 PM by Chinguetti »

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2018, 07:25:10 PM »
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I'm all for banning alcohol on planes. It doesn't belong up there. Planes aren't bars, and there's a whole lot more than can go wrong as a result of some drunken patron.

So now you see what I mean by a slippery slope? There are plenty of other places that aren't bars that serve drinks that you or someone else could make a case for banning.

Not really. By your logic we should allow it anywhere, or else we'll end up banning it everywhere.

There's more than one slippery slope. It's a fallacy because it doesn't acknowledge compromise or a middle ground, and doesn't have much basis outside of fear-mongering.

What I'm talking about is risk assessment. Calculated risk and exposure. It goes back and forth depending on changing views that are further based on what we come to learn from experience and/or science.

Alcohol doesn't belong on a plane. It's a pressurized cabin, up in the air, with people from all backgrounds crammed into a tight space and with nowhere to run to if things go wrong. It's difficult to monitor and to control, and flight attendants weren't hired to be bartenders. They're hired to keep people safe. That's actually their job. All that service bullshit that they do is secondary.

So trains, ships and limos as well?

Online Chinguetti

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2018, 07:28:19 PM »
So trains, ships and limos as well?

They're not pressurized cabins up in the air traveling 800+ kph, and they don't have nearly as many things that can go wrong, so...

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2018, 07:34:05 PM »
So trains, ships and limos as well?

They're not pressurized cabins up in the air traveling 800+ kph, and they don't have nearly as many things that can go wrong, so...

Yes but that's how the slippery slope works. It's a slope, so the next thing that gets banned is slightly  less serious than the one before but the basic argument is still applicable, that's the point. Basically if you're happy to see alcohol banned on planes, be prepared to see it banned on trains and airports in the next 10 years or so.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 07:37:22 PM by eggieguffer »

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2018, 07:38:12 PM »
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I'm all for banning alcohol on planes. It doesn't belong up there. Planes aren't bars, and there's a whole lot more than can go wrong as a result of some drunken patron.

So now you see what I mean by a slippery slope? There are plenty of other places that aren't bars that serve drinks that you or someone else could make a case for banning.

Not really. By your logic we should allow it anywhere, or else we'll end up banning it everywhere.

There's more than one slippery slope. It's a fallacy because it doesn't acknowledge compromise or a middle ground, and doesn't have much basis outside of fear-mongering.

What I'm talking about is risk assessment. Calculated risk and exposure. It goes back and forth depending on changing views that are further based on what we come to learn from experience and/or science.

Alcohol doesn't belong on a plane. It's a pressurized cabin, up in the air, with people from all backgrounds crammed into a tight space and with nowhere to run to if things go wrong. It's difficult to monitor and to control, and flight attendants weren't hired to be bartenders. They're hired to keep people safe. That's actually their job. All that service bullshit is secondary.

Pardon the quality:


Online Chinguetti

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2018, 07:42:14 PM »
So trains, ships and limos as well?

They're not pressurized cabins up in the air traveling 800+ kph, and they don't have nearly as many things that can go wrong, so...

Yes but that's how the slippery slope works. It's a slope, so the next thing that gets banned is slightly  less serious than the one before but the basic argument is still applicable, that's the point. Basically if you're happy to see alcohol banned on planes, be prepared to see it banned on trains in the next 10 years or so.

Only it ignores logic, debate, facts, and compromise.

It treats it like the inevitable conclusion, when it's not.

Planes are an entire world apart from trains with a whole different set of risks and a whole different type of staff. Alcohol will only get banned from service trains if there are plausible scenarios that can put the entire train, and everyone on it, at serious risk, despite regulations to prevent them.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 07:44:26 PM by Chinguetti »

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2018, 07:49:17 PM »
So trains, ships and limos as well?

They're not pressurized cabins up in the air traveling 800+ kph, and they don't have nearly as many things that can go wrong, so...

Yes but that's how the slippery slope works. It's a slope, so the next thing that gets banned is slightly  less serious than the one before but the basic argument is still applicable, that's the point. Basically if you're happy to see alcohol banned on planes, be prepared to see it banned on trains in the next 10 years or so.

Only it ignores logic, debate, facts, and compromise.

It treats it like the inevitable conclusion, when it's not.

Planes are an entire world apart from trains with a whole different set of risks and a whole different type of staff. It'll only get banned from service trains if there are plausible scenarios that can put the entire train, and everyone on it, at serious risk.

No, it'll get banned on trains because when it gets banned on planes, someone who works on a train will think 'that's not fair, why are people still allowed to drink on trains?' and bring a case against their employer due to safety concerns or what have you. That's how the world generally works. Besides which there's never been a plane accident caused by a passenger drinking too much. they can't get into the cockpit or open the doors, so the worst that can happen is the flight attendants have to tie them up and the plane changes course. There have been far more people killed on cruise ships from drinking too much and falling off, so there's a much better case for banning it there. 

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #50 on: November 30, 2018, 08:02:27 PM »
No, it'll get banned on trains because when it gets banned on planes, someone who works on a train will think 'that's not fair, why are people still allowed to drink on trains?' and bring a case against their employer due to safety concerns or what have you. That's how the world generally works. Besides which there's never been a plane accident caused by a passenger drinking too much. they can't get into the cockpit or open the doors, so the worst that can happen is the flight attendants have to tie them up and the plane changes course. There have been far more people killed on cruise ships from drinking too much and falling off, so there's a much better case for banning it there.

I think you need to have yourself a long, detailed chat with pretty much anyone in the flight industry. It's pretty much not even close to as simple as you think it is.

I'll just repeat myself again and say that planes and trains have completely different sets of risks, with completely different types of staff. Someone might make an argument about trains and alcohol, sure.

And in all likelihood, someone probably already has. And, honestly, I could see their point. Trains also aren't bars. They're not made for the alcohol industry, it's not the focus of their business. Alcohol is just a perk that's offered on some of them.

But okay. If you want to take it there. What exactly would your argument be to counter it, other than you want to do it?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 08:05:59 PM by Chinguetti »

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #51 on: November 30, 2018, 08:13:13 PM »
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And in all likelihood, someone probably already has. And, honestly, I could see their point. Trains also aren't bars. They're not made for the alcohol industry, it's not the focus of their business. Alcohol is just a perk that's offered on some of them

See. you're even further down the slippery slope. How about those limos people hire out for parties? Anyone of the guests could drink too much and distract the driver causing a mass pile up on the motorway. Far more likely to kill anyone than someone getting drunk on a plane. (you're more likely to be killed on the way to the airport than on the plane) in fact why not just ban any passengers from drinking in cars full stop? Or people getting into taxis drunk. Cars aren't bars. 
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 08:17:15 PM by eggieguffer »

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #52 on: November 30, 2018, 08:21:15 PM »
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And in all likelihood, someone probably already has. And, honestly, I could see their point. Trains also aren't bars. They're not made for the alcohol industry, it's not the focus of their business. Alcohol is just a perk that's offered on some of them

See. you're even further down the slippery slope. How about those limos people hire out for parties? Anyone of the guests could drink too much and distract the driver causing a mass pile up on the motorway. Far more likely to kill anyone than someone getting drunk on a plane. in fact why not just ban any passengers from drinking in cars full stop?
Or people getting into taxis drunk. Cars aren't bars.

Explain how my argument is going down a slippery slope, and answer my questions. I'm giving you the opportunity to defend your views and to provide us with something more than just unsupported fear-mongering.

Maybe alcohol shouldn't be provided on any mode of transportation. What would the benefit be to do otherwise? Give me the pros.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 08:23:46 PM by Chinguetti »

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #53 on: November 30, 2018, 08:41:20 PM »
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Maybe alcohol shouldn't be provided on any mode of transportation. What would the benefit be to do otherwise? Give me the pros.

I think maybe you and I have massively different ideas about banning stuff. For me, individual freedom is a huge deal and a deal breaker for living in certain societies. For you it seems to be just based on risk assessment. Even if I never had a drink on public transport for the rest of my life, knowing I could do would be important. I want to live in a society where the small minority don't spoil things for everyone else.

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #54 on: November 30, 2018, 09:46:53 PM »
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And in all likelihood, someone probably already has. And, honestly, I could see their point. Trains also aren't bars. They're not made for the alcohol industry, it's not the focus of their business. Alcohol is just a perk that's offered on some of them

See. you're even further down the slippery slope. How about those limos people hire out for parties? Anyone of the guests could drink too much and distract the driver causing a mass pile up on the motorway. Far more likely to kill anyone than someone getting drunk on a plane. (you're more likely to be killed on the way to the airport than on the plane) in fact why not just ban any passengers from drinking in cars full stop? Or people getting into taxis drunk. Cars aren't bars.

Many places do ban "open liquor" in highway vehicles.

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #55 on: November 30, 2018, 09:55:56 PM »
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And in all likelihood, someone probably already has. And, honestly, I could see their point. Trains also aren't bars. They're not made for the alcohol industry, it's not the focus of their business. Alcohol is just a perk that's offered on some of them

See. you're even further down the slippery slope. How about those limos people hire out for parties? Anyone of the guests could drink too much and distract the driver causing a mass pile up on the motorway. Far more likely to kill anyone than someone getting drunk on a plane. (you're more likely to be killed on the way to the airport than on the plane) in fact why not just ban any passengers from drinking in cars full stop? Or people getting into taxis drunk. Cars aren't bars.

Many places do ban "open liquor" in highway vehicles.

And you can't drink anywhere in Saudi Arabia. I don't quite get what this has to do with the debate.

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2018, 10:02:55 PM »
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Maybe alcohol shouldn't be provided on any mode of transportation. What would the benefit be to do otherwise? Give me the pros.

I think maybe you and I have massively different ideas about banning stuff. For me, individual freedom is a huge deal and a deal breaker for living in certain societies. For you it seems to be just based on risk assessment. Even if I never had a drink on public transport for the rest of my life, knowing I could do would be important. I want to live in a society where the small minority don't spoil things for everyone else.

I get that. My dad was the same way, and I share a lot of his beliefs.

But I also respect that some individual freedoms infringe on other individual freedoms, and sometimes the only solution is to make some calculations and to negotiate a compromise. It may not be exactly what everyone wants, but it usually works out okay.

But I understand the scrutiny, too, and why it's there. Honestly, I feel it's also an important part of the process, and that the process can't work effectively without it. People need to be suspicious and critical, just as much as they need to be able to adjust when the times call for it.

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #57 on: December 01, 2018, 03:09:56 AM »
Except that outdoor BBQing is banned from most places, lol. There are designated areas for it.  :undecided:

Outdoor BBQing is also far less common than public smoking.

Besides, no one is talking about outright banning the act altogether. This is about controlling where it's done.
That's because of fire hazard or an outright continuous plume of smoke being released in a quantity that dwarfs cigarettes. People BBQ all the time. For effs sake, if you're really that worried about your health, you'd never set foot in a Korean BBQ place. It's not REALLY about health, it's about personal disgust.

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This is a slippery slope fallacy.
The slippery slope is a logical fallacy. Human beings are not logical. "If I give a bully my lunch money today, that doesn't mean he will take take it tomorrow. That's the slippery slope fallacy." Which basically ignores everything we know about human behavior.

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People don't get alcohol into their systems simply by being around drinkers
People can act "drunk" just by being around drunks despite not being legally intoxicated.

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Banning smoking is for health AND safety because no one can help breathing it in, and people shouldn't be forced to.
How are you forced to breathe in smoke at a bar or club? NO ONE MAKES YOU ENTER

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I'm talking about banning it to designated areas in places where both smokers and non-smokers congregate.
Fine,  bars and clubs and restaurants can choose to declare themselves "smoking" establishments. Pretty simple.

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But other times it's very black and white, and it's time to accept change. I'm all for banning alcohol on planes. It doesn't belong up there. Planes aren't bars, and there's a whole lot more that can go wrong up there. It's a pressurized cabin with nowhere to go, where children and the elderly are also present.
This is just nonsensical. I can't think of a time a drunk passenger has crashed a commercial airplane. I think electronics pose more of a risk than alcohol. Ban electronics.

This argument isn't based on logic, it's based on irrational fear.

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What I'm talking about is risk assessment. Calculated risk and exposure.
But there is no calculation or risk assessment in your decision to ban alcohol, nor your concern over second hand smoke on the sidewalk. It's based on personal disgust, not any calculation over what toxins you are regularly exposed to and whether they are going to have an effect on you.

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It's difficult to monitor and to control, and flight attendants weren't hired to be bartenders. They're hired to keep people safe. That's actually their job. All that service bullshit that they do is secondary.
And yet somehow tens of thousands of flights have happened for years without some drunk passenger bringing down an airplane.

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They're not pressurized cabins up in the air traveling 800+ kph, and they don't have nearly as many things that can go wrong, so...
That's not a complete argument. That's a half statement. "They're not pressurized cabins up in the air traveling 800+ kph, and they don't have nearly as many things that can go wrong, so...therefore we should ban anything containing PVC/lithium ion batteries/meat/pencils/pets/spicy food/wood.

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Planes are an entire world apart from trains with a whole different set of risks and a whole different type of staff
Yes, but that statement does not logically prove that you should ban alcohol being served.

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Alcohol will only get banned from service trains if there are plausible scenarios that can put the entire train, and everyone on it, at serious risk, despite regulations to prevent them.
Trains don't search people for lighters, nor things that can easily be turned into a weapon. Someone on a train can decide to get drunk and take their lighter to some foam insulation and start a fire that asphyxiates and poisons an entire car in about a minute. Heck, a drunk could yell "FIRE!!!!! and start a human crush.

A drunk on an airplane is capable of doing the same things a non-drunk can do- Cause some sort of ruckus. While it does increase the likelihood of that happening, the danger involved in that happening has so far proved to be manageable.

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sometimes the only solution is to make some calculations and to negotiate a compromise.
Overregulation just turns large numbers of people into criminals. If you ban alcohol on flights, you would likely have to ban people from bringing it on board or being drunk. What does that mean? It means you would have to brethalyze every single passenger before boarding. That would be a logistical nightmare. If you DON'T ban people from being intoxicated, in all likelihood they are going to be pounding booze before they get on the plane. That may actually exacerbate the problems you are trying to alleviate.

The problem with these laws is that the people who create them have a poor grasp of human behavior, especially deviant behavior. It's the same logic as Prohibition "Well, if we ban alcohol, people will just stop drinking and we won't have as much domestic violence and crime." Except it didn't work that way. People drank MORE. Crime became WORSE. Millions of Americans suddenly became criminals and lost respect for the law. Laws are not simply inputs and outputs where A will cause B. If you think all that will be involved in a ban on alcohol on airplanes is just that people won't be able to buy alcohol and there will be less disturbances, you are not sufficiently analyzing the situation and understanding it in its full scope.

If you want to see the effects of anti-smoking measures and the unintended consequences, I have a name for you: Eric Garner.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2018, 03:13:55 AM by Mr.DeMartino »

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #58 on: December 01, 2018, 04:12:52 AM »
A company/club ban and a public ban are two VERY DIFFERENT things with respect to freedom of choice.


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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #59 on: December 01, 2018, 09:11:30 AM »
Didn't they make exactly the same arguments about seat belts? How many lives have been saved?