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Author Topic: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?  (Read 2125 times)

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« on: November 28, 2018, 01:58:07 PM »
So, this is from a debate that was going on in another thread and I'm going to move it over here.

For debate's sake, I'll concede banning smoking in paid entry clubs or bars, even though I think that's ridiculous, especially cigar bars, and feel free to debate that.

But the idea of banning smoking in VFW/American Legion halls REALLY irks me. Like, who the heck are you to tell some 90 year old guy who lost his leg fighting Hitler that he doesn't have the right to go to a private club and enjoy a cigar while playing poker with the 5 other guys from the 8th Air Force that are still alive? I can't for the life of me wrap my head around that.

But maybe you have a different view and a good case. Anyways, it would be interesting to see what people think.

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2018, 02:08:44 PM »
They should be allowed to have a separated smoking section, since I assume there wouldn't be a choice of VFW halls they can go to if they don't like smoke.

Online Orkblut

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2018, 02:13:47 PM »
The smoking danger is (excuse the term) overblown. If you're living in a city, a Korean city especially, and are worried about the 'dangers' of second-hand smoke then I don't know what to tell you.

So for the OP, my answer is: NO.

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2018, 02:15:24 PM »
Well, you've painted a very precise picture of the people in those halls and conveniently have those 90 year olds as still smoking.  Not the best habit for most of that age, but I give them a pass.

However, I know that with the dwindling number of patrons from the military the Legion Halls in Canada have been opened to the general public for years now.  There is one down by the lake in Toronto that has one of the best lakeshore patios in the city and literally, in a booming condo corridor, million dollar views.  They need to bring in regular folk and the reality is there are less smokers.  I say that as someone who likes to smoke after a certain number of beers, but I prefer having to go outside or go to a designated zone.

Maybe in the states the legion halls are still exclusively for the veterans and military in which case I think each individual legion should have the power to make that call. 

 

Online tylerthegloob

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2018, 02:22:46 PM »
About a week ago, just out of curiosity, I was looking up articles about marijuana in a database (PubMed to be exact). I would need to delve into it deeper at some point, but going through them I failed to see how marijuana is less risky, health-wise, than cigarettes. There certainly seemed like a compelling argument, backed by scientific research, could be made as to how it (marijuana) is equally dangerous as cigarettes. Unfortunately people don't bother looking at the actual research and hop onto the trend of the day, which currently is cigarettes = evil, weed = good, junk food/alcohol/pollution = "but we can't avoid these things!"

It's this. This has got to be one of the dumbest comments I've ever read here.

edit: as for the rest of the thread... just make a smoking room or smoking area so the people who want to suck that foul smelling smoke through their nostrils can do it together privately. ultimately, i don't really care what people do in VFWs, but keep that shit out of clubs, bars, and PC rooms.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 02:24:34 PM by tylerthegloob »

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2018, 02:25:48 PM »
Well, you've painted a very precise picture of the people in those halls and conveniently have those 90 year olds as still smoking.  Not the best habit for most of that age, but I give them a pass.

However, I know that with the dwindling number of patrons from the military the Legion Halls in Canada have been opened to the general public for years now.  There is one down by the lake in Toronto that has one of the best lakeshore patios in the city and literally, in a booming condo corridor, million dollar views.  They need to bring in regular folk and the reality is there are less smokers.  I say that as someone who likes to smoke after a certain number of beers, but I prefer having to go outside or go to a designated zone.

Maybe in the states the legion halls are still exclusively for the veterans and military in which case I think each individual legion should have the power to make that call.

That seems pretty reasonable. Private club and all. If the members want to ban it, good on them.

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2018, 02:28:17 PM »
they need to make smoking sections for them.  i remember back in the day being able to smoke in wendy's, denny's, mcdonald's, burgerking, etc.  they always had those areas separated.  yeah, good luck telling some 90 year old vet to not smoke.  but at the same time, the other 90 year vet who doesn't smoke shouldn't have to be around it. 

Offline Chinguetti

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2018, 03:27:07 PM »
This isn't really a topic that I want to continue if it's just going to result in quote trees like in the Raving thread, but I'm going to take a chance. I want to bring up the fact the major argument that pro-smoke-anywhere-the-****-I-want people is that there are worse things to get exposed to, and I don't really understand why this is seen as a supporting argument at all. It doesn't negate the fact that the substance is still toxic, and people have the right to avoid it.

Imagine force-feeding someone a tiny bit of arsenic, and when they get angry about that telling them, "Stop virtue-signaling, you little nancy, it was only a little bit, it's not enough to kill you. Tetrodotoxin is more dangerous for you, you should worry more about that."

Again, the point for most people is to have control over what goes into their own bodies. If you want to smoke, that's your choice, but your right to that choice doesn't give you the right to force it on others. If you want to smoke, you should do it away from people who don't want to be exposed to that.

Also, pointing out the fact that no one is forcing non-smokers to go to certain places is both irrelevant and self-defeating. No one's forcing smokers to go to those places, either. They don't need to go anywhere. But if both smokers and non-smokers want to go, a choice has to be made. Either non-smokers have to put up with smoking, or smokers are going to have to put up with not smoking. Which do you think benefits the majority of people? Which one is by and far the more selfish? Which one harms everyone around them, regardless of their personal choices?

As brought up by others, though, a good compromise would be to have designated smoking areas, away from people who don't want to be around smoke (whatever their reasons are, which they are very much entitled to have). Many businesses don't opt for this, though, because it usually requires special filters to keep cigarette smoke from seeping into other areas, and they don't want to spend the money on these filters when they've found that their business usually don't suffer for not having designated smoking areas.

Turns out people don't need to smoke to visit those places and enjoy what those places have to offer.

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2018, 03:37:42 PM »
So, this is from a debate that was going on in another thread and I'm going to move it over here.

For debate's sake, I'll concede banning smoking in paid entry clubs or bars, even though I think that's ridiculous, especially cigar bars, and feel free to debate that.

But the idea of banning smoking in VFW/American Legion halls REALLY irks me. Like, who the heck are you to tell some 90 year old guy who lost his leg fighting Hitler that he doesn't have the right to go to a private club and enjoy a cigar while playing poker with the 5 other guys from the 8th Air Force that are still alive? I can't for the life of me wrap my head around that.

But maybe you have a different view and a good case. Anyways, it would be interesting to see what people think.

But what about the 90 year old vet who has just gone into remission from lung cancer, and his doctor has told him to avoid smoke at all costs.  The only friends he has go to the club, but due to the 5 guys smoking cigars whilst playing poker, he cannot go.  He has no other contacts, and as such stays home, gets depressed and dies alone without anyone noticing.

You're not the only one who can create incredibly niche examples to make your point!

You can't wrap your head around the fact that because 1 guy wants to smoke, everyone else must tolerate a habit that impacts on others whether they like it or not.  If 100 people are in a room, and only 1 person smokes, then all 100 will be impacted by it, regardless of their wishes.  Smoking goes beyond a person's freedoms, it is a health issue, and telling someone they must breathe carcinogens or leave because 1 person wants to indulge in a lifestyle choice is ridiculous in this day and age, especially as there are other ways to get a fix of nicotine that do not involve the smoke. 

If beer didn't have alcohol, most wouldn't touch it, and if fAgs didn't have nicotine, there would be little point to them.

I enjoy a cigar from time to time, but i would never dream of lighting up in a room if even a single person was against the smoke.

I will say that banning smoking in a cigar club does sound a bit daft.  There is an example of a place where no-one should be against breathing smoke.

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2018, 03:58:54 PM »
No one's forcing smokers to go to those places, either. They don't need to go anywhere. But if both smokers and non-smokers want to go, a choice has to be made. Either non-smokers have to put up with smoking, or smokers are going to have to put up with not smoking. Which do you think benefits the majority of people? Which one is by and far the more selfish? Which one harms everyone around them, regardless of their personal choices?
How about people get to open up businesses and cater to certain kinds of clientele, like smokers. And those people can freely associate with each other? Don't smokers have the right to associate with other smokers and form clubs and businesses that cater to their activity?

But what about the 90 year old vet who has just gone into remission from lung cancer, and his doctor has told him to avoid smoke at all costs.  The only friends he has go to the club, but due to the 5 guys smoking cigars whilst playing poker, he cannot go.  He has no other contacts, and as such stays home, gets depressed and dies alone without anyone noticing.
Well, like I said, I do think it should be up to the membership. Also, I would be fine if they mandated a non-smoking section that was truly sealed off.

But if the membership votes for it...I mean for the government to come in and tell them "No", I mean really? Veterans? Old farts who have shrapnel in their shoulder and 2 years left to go?

That being said, with todays veterans being younger and less likely to be smokers perhaps a change is in the works.

Offline Chinguetti

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2018, 06:10:50 PM »
No one's forcing smokers to go to those places, either. They don't need to go anywhere. But if both smokers and non-smokers want to go, a choice has to be made. Either non-smokers have to put up with smoking, or smokers are going to have to put up with not smoking. Which do you think benefits the majority of people? Which one is by and far the more selfish? Which one harms everyone around them, regardless of their personal choices?
How about people get to open up businesses and cater to certain kinds of clientele, like smokers. And those people can freely associate with each other? Don't smokers have the right to associate with other smokers and form clubs and businesses that cater to their activity?

Yeah, I have no problems with that, as long as that clientele is the focus of the business, the activity is one of the business' main selling points, and it operates with those points in mind and within the frameworks of the law.

I don't often meet people who are so hardcore about smoking that it goes beyond a habit and addiction, and into passion territory, though, but cigar clubs exist for a reason.

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2018, 06:43:31 PM »
No one's forcing smokers to go to those places, either. They don't need to go anywhere. But if both smokers and non-smokers want to go, a choice has to be made. Either non-smokers have to put up with smoking, or smokers are going to have to put up with not smoking. Which do you think benefits the majority of people? Which one is by and far the more selfish? Which one harms everyone around them, regardless of their personal choices?
How about people get to open up businesses and cater to certain kinds of clientele, like smokers. And those people can freely associate with each other? Don't smokers have the right to associate with other smokers and form clubs and businesses that cater to their activity?

Yeah, I have no problems with that, as long as that clientele is the focus of the business, the activity is one of the business' main selling points, and it operates with those points in mind and within the frameworks of the law.

I don't often meet people who are so hardcore about smoking that it goes beyond a habit and addiction, and into passion territory, though, but cigar clubs exist for a reason.

And as most people do when they get together, they'd like to have a few drinks, they get a liquor licence and some kegs.

This is now, essentially, a bar.
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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2018, 07:49:08 PM »
I think there are two well-defended positions on this one:

1) Itís a private club. They set their own rules, and if 50%+1 of the membership wants it, so be it.

2) Staff have a right to a safe working environment, with reasonable protection from carcinogenic compounds. If a smoke-filled bar was a factory, respirators would be required!
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 10:19:32 AM by JNM »

Offline Chinguetti

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2018, 10:05:00 PM »
And as most people do when they get together, they'd like to have a few drinks, they get a liquor licence and some kegs.

This is now, essentially, a bar.

So you're telling me that the main reason why most people go to bars is to smoke and to associate with other smokers?

It's not because of the alcohol and to meet other people, smokers and non-smokers, in general?

And that bars would lose business if smoking were banned except for in designated smoking areas?

I think there are two well-defended positions on this one:

1) Itís a private club. They set their own rules, and if 50%+1 of the membership wants it, so be it.

2) Staff have a right to a safe working environment, with reasonable protection from carcinogenic compounds. If a smoke-filled par was a factory, respirators would be required!

Probably the strongest arguing points on both sides. When law steps in, it has to decide on which right has the most value for the public interest.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 10:07:54 PM by Chinguetti »

Offline VanIslander

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2018, 10:52:34 PM »
I don't smoke.
I've never smoked.

But I would like to honor the wishes of veterans who were willing to put their lives at risk to protect our freedoms. If the majority of them want their social club to allow smoking, then I am the last one to stand in their way.


Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2018, 09:53:45 AM »
So you're telling me that the main reason why most people go to bars is to smoke and to associate with other smokers?

It's not because of the alcohol and to meet other people, smokers and non-smokers, in general?
It's as big a factor as what kind of music they play or if there's a dart board or a pool table. Booze and smokes go together like fish&chips.

With light drinking, it's not a big deal. But there's certain kind of drinking, usually (not always) among good friends, where there's a lot of banter or debate or some kind of game/activity going on, and a smoke just punctuates it. You don't have to break to go outside. The cigarette actually is part of the gesturing and emphasis of points, the way it really seems to focus the mind when making a point or loosen everyone up and get two people who just met to make a connection.

I really think that post=10PM, there's no reason a bar shouldn't be able to choose to allow smoking. We can quibble about the hour, but I think there's a certain point where it's clear that "health" is not any concern.

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2018, 10:25:29 AM »
I don't smoke.
I've never smoked.

But I would like to honor the wishes of veterans who were willing to put their lives at risk to protect our freedoms. If the majority of them want their social club to allow smoking, then I am the last one to stand in their way.

The problem with having a vote on it is that some people, maybe the majority of people will vote only on what makes their own lives more convenient. It's similar to the discussion on drinking in public areas, e.g Parks. If only 20% of citizens want to drink in public, the remaining 80% may think 'has public drinking ever been a nuisance to me personally? Yes, I nearly stepped in some vomit once, so I'll vote against it' They don't consider the effect on society as a whole or think about whether next time the vote might be on something they like doing. Drinking on planes/at the airport will be next. As soon as the majority don't do it and they have a vote on it, it's gone.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 10:30:24 AM by eggieguffer »

Online JNM

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2018, 11:25:13 AM »
I don't smoke.
I've never smoked.

But I would like to honor the wishes of veterans who were willing to put their lives at risk to protect our freedoms. If the majority of them want their social club to allow smoking, then I am the last one to stand in their way.

The problem with having a vote on it is that some people, maybe the majority of people will vote only on what makes their own lives more convenient. It's similar to the discussion on drinking in public areas, e.g Parks. If only 20% of citizens want to drink in public, the remaining 80% may think 'has public drinking ever been a nuisance to me personally? Yes, I nearly stepped in some vomit once, so I'll vote against it' They don't consider the effect on society as a whole or think about whether next time the vote might be on something they like doing. Drinking on planes/at the airport will be next. As soon as the majority don't do it and they have a vote on it, it's gone.

Thatís how democracy works.

Other options are: whatever the King/Party leadership/etc wants is how it is.

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2018, 11:54:08 AM »
I don't smoke.
I've never smoked.

But I would like to honor the wishes of veterans who were willing to put their lives at risk to protect our freedoms. If the majority of them want their social club to allow smoking, then I am the last one to stand in their way.

The problem with having a vote on it is that some people, maybe the majority of people will vote only on what makes their own lives more convenient. It's similar to the discussion on drinking in public areas, e.g Parks. If only 20% of citizens want to drink in public, the remaining 80% may think 'has public drinking ever been a nuisance to me personally? Yes, I nearly stepped in some vomit once, so I'll vote against it' They don't consider the effect on society as a whole or think about whether next time the vote might be on something they like doing. Drinking on planes/at the airport will be next. As soon as the majority don't do it and they have a vote on it, it's gone.

Thatís how democracy works.

Other options are: whatever the King/Party leadership/etc wants is how it is.

It's not how democracy works. For years the majority in the UK have been in favour of capital punishment but no government has reinstated it. The government has to make decisions on what the majority might be in favour of but what might be bad for society.

Online JNM

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Re: Should Smoking be Banned in VFW/American Legion Halls?
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2018, 12:12:47 PM »
I don't smoke.
I've never smoked.

But I would like to honor the wishes of veterans who were willing to put their lives at risk to protect our freedoms. If the majority of them want their social club to allow smoking, then I am the last one to stand in their way.

The problem with having a vote on it is that some people, maybe the majority of people will vote only on what makes their own lives more convenient. It's similar to the discussion on drinking in public areas, e.g Parks. If only 20% of citizens want to drink in public, the remaining 80% may think 'has public drinking ever been a nuisance to me personally? Yes, I nearly stepped in some vomit once, so I'll vote against it' They don't consider the effect on society as a whole or think about whether next time the vote might be on something they like doing. Drinking on planes/at the airport will be next. As soon as the majority don't do it and they have a vote on it, it's gone.

Thatís how democracy works.

Other options are: whatever the King/Party leadership/etc wants is how it is.

It's not how democracy works. For years the majority in the UK have been in favour of capital punishment but no government has reinstated it. The government has to make decisions on what the majority might be in favour of but what might be bad for society.

Ahhh... you are talking about a Parliamentary system, which is not quite a democracy.