January 24, 2019, 02:36:02 AM


Author Topic: US Politics Megathread  (Read 4391 times)

Offline CDW

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #60 on: November 21, 2018, 08:11:18 AM »
Dem strategy in 2020: doubling down on their identity politics.

"Democrats thinking about running for president in 2020 are dramatically changing the way the party talks about race in Donald Trumpís America: Get ready to hear a lot more about intersectionality, allyship, inclusivity and POC.

"White and nonwhite Democratic hopefuls are talking more explicitly about race than the partyís White House aspirants ever have ó and shrugging off warnings that embracing so-called identity politics could distract from the partyís economic message and push white voters further into Donald Trumpís arms."
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/19/democrats-2020-race-identity-politics-strategy-1000249

Disappointing but not surprising. Inclusivity? Not for the "deplorable" white working class.


Online eggieguffer

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #61 on: November 21, 2018, 08:28:21 AM »
More identity politics from the Guardian

White women in the US primarily voted for Trump not because of their gender, but because of their whiteness.  :rolleyes: I guess policy wasn't really an issue. Kind of a good argument for not allowing them the vote back in the 20s.

https://www.theguardian.com/global/2018/nov/17/infuriating-women-back-trump-men-free-pass 

Online Savant

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #62 on: November 21, 2018, 08:47:41 AM »
Dem strategy in 2020: doubling down on their identity politics.

"Democrats thinking about running for president in 2020 are dramatically changing the way the party talks about race in Donald Trumpís America: Get ready to hear a lot more about intersectionality, allyship, inclusivity and POC.

"White and nonwhite Democratic hopefuls are talking more explicitly about race than the partyís White House aspirants ever have ó and shrugging off warnings that embracing so-called identity politics could distract from the partyís economic message and push white voters further into Donald Trumpís arms."
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/19/democrats-2020-race-identity-politics-strategy-1000249

Disappointing but not surprising. Inclusivity? Not for the "deplorable" white working class.

The Democratic tent is a big one so, of course, race and gender, are discussion topics. Women did pretty well in the Midterms.

Whereas, the Republicans only pander to the "white" race. As evident, by the lack of non-white freshman congressman (plus one white woman).

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #63 on: November 21, 2018, 09:43:17 AM »
The Democratic tent is a big one so, of course, race and gender, are discussion topics. Women did pretty well in the Midterms.

Whereas, the Republicans only pander to the "white" race. As evident, by the lack of non-white freshman congressman (plus one white woman).
Actually, I think the Democratic tent is increasingly shrinking. It may be racially diverse, but that's about it. The Republican/Conservative movement on the other hand has a lot of grassroots energetic people (of diverse backgrounds), but more importantly, they are ideologically diverse and have energy. You have traditional values and ideology conservatives like Ben Shapiro. You have libertarian-anarchists like Styx, Techno-liberals like Scott Adams, Gadfly/Trolls like Milo, anti-PC media savvies like Candace Owens, and a host of youtubers and bloggers that break with conservative ideology on a host of issues, yet unite around a few core principles. 1) Despising SJW stuff (although Scott Adams at times is sympathetic) 2) Some defense of gun rights 3) Suspicion of the corporate media and tech platforms. That's about it. They disagree on abortion, trade, transgenderism, BLM and race, health care, taxes, gay marriage, environmental regulations, criminal justice, drug legalization, military interventionism, Iran and Cuba and North Korea, and so on.

The Dems? You do have some split between the corporate Dems and the Sanders wing, but they don't seem to be as diverse in their viewpoints from their major spokespeople. Now, that might change as the progressive upstarts like Ocasio-Cortes, Gillum, Beto, etc. all gain influence, but for now, the Dems seem unwilling to challenge any liberal orthodoxy. Bill Maher stands out as the rare liberal voice who is saying "ENOUGH!!!!" with the PC/SJW crap.

It's really telling though when you see young liberals debate conservatives. You can tell they aren't ideologically challenged whereas the young conservatives are much more exposed to contrary points of view and much more prepared to react to them and have answers ready (outside of really dumb MuricaMAGA types). Now, this isn't the case with older liberals (I'd say Cenk from TYT is about the tail end of the "able to intelligently debate" age range), but it's a big problem with the younger ones and I think that's starting to permeate through the party.

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #64 on: November 21, 2018, 09:57:34 AM »
This is the kind of thing people say when they don't understand politics and Russia.

The Russians of course did not expect Trump to win.  Their goal was and is to sow disharmony into Western politics and try to weaken or break down democratic institutions, especially those that thwart Putin's goals.
Yes. What does that have to do with Trump and collusion?

Quote
They have been more successful than most of us could have imagined (certainly more than you, who can't even imagine it, apparently, even though it has been pointed out to you numerous times).
You're assuming causation without it being established. That Trump was elected does not mean it was because of Russia or Russian interference.

Rather than some crappy facebook ads that got 56 likes, I look at things like, I dunno...
-The utter collapse of the Rust Belt
-Economic devastation across many small towns in America
-Hillary's vote for the Iraq War
-People's homes being foreclosed
-A little-known Septuagenarian Socialist from Vermont giving Hillary a run for her money in a bitterly divided primary
-Not campaigning in Wisconsin
-The opioid epidemic
-SJWs
-A cultural trend towards embracing anti-heroes and villains, blunt talk, and coarseness
-HILLARY BEING TOSSED LIKE A SLAB OF BEEF INTO THE BACK OF A VAN AT GROUND ZERO ON THE ANNIVERSARY OF 9/11

But yeah, it was "The Russians". Give me frickin break.

Online Savant

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #65 on: November 21, 2018, 11:24:51 AM »
The Democratic tent is a big one so, of course, race and gender, are discussion topics. Women did pretty well in the Midterms.

Whereas, the Republicans only pander to the "white" race. As evident, by the lack of non-white freshman congressman (plus one white woman).
Actually, I think the Democratic tent is increasingly shrinking. It may be racially diverse, but that's about it. The Republican/Conservative movement on the other hand has a lot of grassroots energetic people (of diverse backgrounds), but more importantly, they are ideologically diverse and have energy. You have traditional values and ideology conservatives like Ben Shapiro. You have libertarian-anarchists like Styx, Techno-liberals like Scott Adams, Gadfly/Trolls like Milo, anti-PC media savvies like Candace Owens, and a host of youtubers and bloggers that break with conservative ideology on a host of issues, yet unite around a few core principles. 1) Despising SJW stuff (although Scott Adams at times is sympathetic) 2) Some defense of gun rights 3) Suspicion of the corporate media and tech platforms. That's about it. They disagree on abortion, trade, transgenderism, BLM and race, health care, taxes, gay marriage, environmental regulations, criminal justice, drug legalization, military interventionism, Iran and Cuba and North Korea, and so on.

The Dems? You do have some split between the corporate Dems and the Sanders wing, but they don't seem to be as diverse in their viewpoints from their major spokespeople. Now, that might change as the progressive upstarts like Ocasio-Cortes, Gillum, Beto, etc. all gain influence, but for now, the Dems seem unwilling to challenge any liberal orthodoxy. Bill Maher stands out as the rare liberal voice who is saying "ENOUGH!!!!" with the PC/SJW crap.

It's really telling though when you see young liberals debate conservatives. You can tell they aren't ideologically challenged whereas the young conservatives are much more exposed to contrary points of view and much more prepared to react to them and have answers ready (outside of really dumb MuricaMAGA types). Now, this isn't the case with older liberals (I'd say Cenk from TYT is about the tail end of the "able to intelligently debate" age range), but it's a big problem with the younger ones and I think that's starting to permeate through the party.

Demographics are running against the white folks in rural area. The cities and suburban areas are where the votes increasingly are. In the mid-terms, Democrats made big inroads into the suburban vote.

You've got white-colored specs on if you think the Republicans are expanding their base. The Republican line is whatever Trump decides. If you disagree with him, you get primaried.

Out of interest, what do these young Republicans stand for?

Democrats elected: more women, more people of color, more LGBT people, Native Americans, muslims.

Republicans elected: white christian folk.

Democratic candidates also far out-raised their Republican counterparts including into Republican strongholds. I would say the Democrats are more energized.

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #66 on: November 21, 2018, 12:07:16 PM »
Demographics are running against the white folks in rural area. The cities and suburban areas are where the votes increasingly are. In the mid-terms, Democrats made big inroads into the suburban vote.

You've got white-colored specs on if you think the Republicans are expanding their base.
Well I do agree with you in terms of demographics, although not with ideology. As I said in another post, we might be looking at a Republican Party that nationally is soon to be like that of Massachusetts or New York. Might occasionally hold one branch of the legislature, but can only win major statewide office if the Democrat in charge seriously effs up.

Quote
Out of interest, what do these young Republicans stand for?

Democrats elected: more women, more people of color, more LGBT people, Native Americans, muslims.

Republicans elected: white christian folk.

But that's NOT who the conservative influencers are in terms of opinion. While the candidates do lean white and Christian, that does not mean the ideology is about "white people" and Christians. Those who are on the right know how diverse things are in terms of viewpoint and the surprising numbers of POC/gay/trans influencers. The three biggest conservative viral slogans of the past election cycle were #walkaway (started by a gay man), #jobsnotmobs (started by someone who believes in the Simulation) and #blexit (started by a black female). I don't think many on the left really understand what the right and Trump supporters are like. I think they've convinced themselves of some caricature of them as a bunch of frothing racists who want to make America fascist and turn it into the Handmaid's Tale. It's like the social conservatives who think the left wants us to all become atheist-Pagan-Muslims and will snatch every gun up while putting you in front of a health care death panel.

Quote
I would say the Democrats are more energized.
 
In terms of opposition to Trump. If Trump goes, the Dems are suddenly going to be standing around going "Okay, now what." It's because of that the conservatives might have a fighting chance despite facing electoral oblivion.

I dunno, it's tricky to read the tea leaves. I definitely get some of what you're saying regarding the GOP's demographic crisis, but I think the Dems diversity might be broader on the surface but not as deep underneath and that could be a problem.

Offline Mr C

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #67 on: November 21, 2018, 12:08:40 PM »
This is the kind of thing people say when they don't understand politics and Russia.

The Russians of course did not expect Trump to win.  Their goal was and is to sow disharmony into Western politics and try to weaken or break down democratic institutions, especially those that thwart Putin's goals.
Yes. What does that have to do with Trump and collusion?
Trump seemed to Putin like a good horse to back, since he's mentally unstable and amoral, and he has him by the short-and-curlies money-laundering, anyway.  Putin seemed to Trump like the kind of guy who could rat him out in an instant, but could do some favors if he played nice.

You have to admit that's at least reasonable as anything you might have come up with on the other side.
Quote
Quote
They have been more successful than most of us could have imagined (certainly more than you, who can't even imagine it, apparently, even though it has been pointed out to you numerous times).
You're assuming causation without it being established. That Trump was elected does not mean it was because of Russia or Russian interference.
You're the one that assumed that.  I said no such thing.  Just because it's what Putin wanted, doesn't mean he made it so.  But don't you find it even a bit squicky that Putin and Trump seem to get along so well? 
Quote
Rather than some crappy facebook ads that got 56 likes, I look at things like, I dunno...
-The utter collapse of the Rust Belt
-Economic devastation across many small towns in America
-Hillary's vote for the Iraq War
-People's homes being foreclosed
-A little-known Septuagenarian Socialist from Vermont giving Hillary a run for her money in a bitterly divided primary
-Not campaigning in Wisconsin
-The opioid epidemic
-SJWs
-A cultural trend towards embracing anti-heroes and villains, blunt talk, and coarseness
-HILLARY BEING TOSSED LIKE A SLAB OF BEEF INTO THE BACK OF A VAN AT GROUND ZERO ON THE ANNIVERSARY OF 9/11

But yeah, it was "The Russians". Give me frickin break.
Gimme a frickin' new argument.  Honestly, you're becoming like Trump.  No matter how often he is told that, for example, USPS doesn't lose $1.50 on each Amazon package, 5 million illegal voters did not swing the popular vote to HRC, and Finland doesn't sweep the forest floors, he keeps repeating the same nonsense over and over.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 12:10:47 PM by Mr C »

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #68 on: November 21, 2018, 12:54:43 PM »
Trump seemed to Putin like a good horse to back, since he's mentally unstable and amoral, and he has him by the short-and-curlies money-laundering, anyway.  Putin seemed to Trump like the kind of guy who could rat him out in an instant, but could do some favors if he played nice.
Putin was going to back whoever came out of the Republican Party (except for perhaps, Jeb! or another NeoCon) because he held Clinton responsible for what he perceived as US efforts to meddle in internal Russian politics. That he supported Trump and some tepid efforts were made on Trump's behalf (oooo a phising scam and a 60 like facebook ad) does not mean Russia was why Trump won.

Quote
You have to admit that's at least reasonable as anything you might have come up with on the other side.
Not really. It's like blaming the refs for a loss when your team goes 10-21 from the free throw line or fumbles the ball 5 times.

Quote
But don't you find it even a bit squicky that Putin and Trump seem to get along so well? 
Not really, no. The worldview that Trump has lines up more with the like of nationalists such as Putin or Modi than globalist-interventionists like Merkel.

Quote
Gimme a frickin' new argument.  Honestly, you're becoming like Trump.  No matter how often he is told that, for example, USPS doesn't lose $1.50 on each Amazon package, 5 million illegal voters did not swing the popular vote to HRC, and Finland doesn't sweep the forest floors, he keeps repeating the same nonsense over and ove
I'm not coming up with a new argument because the argument I made as to the reasons Clinton lost is the correct one. Trump won because of the economic malaise that has affected the Rust Belt, a deep sense of cultural alienation in small town America, and dissatisfaction on both the left and right with the international financial order as represented by Clinton and as opposed to by such people as Trump and Sanders.

Michael Moore explains it perfectly


Chris Matthews got it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHEwtoe78sQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbW2BiurBpw

Look at the Michigan Presidential Primary. This was in a state that hadn't voted Republican since 1988. Hillary was projected to win by 15-20.
GOP total votes (Trump win)- 1,324,621

DEM total votes-  1,194,643
Bernie Sanders- 49.8%
Hillary Clinton- 48.3%

That says everything you need to know about which way this race was headed.

Bill Clinton was screaming at Hillary and her staff about how they were losing the white working class and how this could be fatal. He was ignored. Michael Moore talked about it. Chris Matthews talked about it. Joe Scarborough was talking about it. What more do you need?

But yeah, it was all Russia.  :rolleyes:

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #69 on: November 21, 2018, 04:33:44 PM »
Lock her up, lock her up?  #ivanka

Offline Adel

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #70 on: November 21, 2018, 04:47:24 PM »
Lock her up, lock her up?  #ivanka
Lock her up. Lock her up!

Offline CDW

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #71 on: November 21, 2018, 05:29:54 PM »
Dem strategy in 2020: doubling down on their identity politics.

"Democrats thinking about running for president in 2020 are dramatically changing the way the party talks about race in Donald Trumpís America: Get ready to hear a lot more about intersectionality, allyship, inclusivity and POC.

"White and nonwhite Democratic hopefuls are talking more explicitly about race than the partyís White House aspirants ever have ó and shrugging off warnings that embracing so-called identity politics could distract from the partyís economic message and push white voters further into Donald Trumpís arms."
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/19/democrats-2020-race-identity-politics-strategy-1000249

Disappointing but not surprising. Inclusivity? Not for the "deplorable" white working class.

The Democratic tent is a big one so, of course, race and gender, are discussion topics. Women did pretty well in the Midterms.

Whereas, the Republicans only pander to the "white" race. As evident, by the lack of non-white freshman congressman (plus one white woman).
Not supporting diversity merely for diversity's sake = pandering to white people? 

Online Savant

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #72 on: November 21, 2018, 06:19:20 PM »
Dem strategy in 2020: doubling down on their identity politics.

"Democrats thinking about running for president in 2020 are dramatically changing the way the party talks about race in Donald Trumpís America: Get ready to hear a lot more about intersectionality, allyship, inclusivity and POC.

"White and nonwhite Democratic hopefuls are talking more explicitly about race than the partyís White House aspirants ever have ó and shrugging off warnings that embracing so-called identity politics could distract from the partyís economic message and push white voters further into Donald Trumpís arms."
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/19/democrats-2020-race-identity-politics-strategy-1000249

Disappointing but not surprising. Inclusivity? Not for the "deplorable" white working class.

The Democratic tent is a big one so, of course, race and gender, are discussion topics. Women did pretty well in the Midterms.

Whereas, the Republicans only pander to the "white" race. As evident, by the lack of non-white freshman congressman (plus one white woman).
Not supporting diversity merely for diversity's sake = pandering to white people?

White people that vote Republican.

Online Savant

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #73 on: November 21, 2018, 06:39:56 PM »
Demographics are running against the white folks in rural area. The cities and suburban areas are where the votes increasingly are. In the mid-terms, Democrats made big inroads into the suburban vote.

You've got white-colored specs on if you think the Republicans are expanding their base.
I dunno, it's tricky to read the tea leaves. I definitely get some of what you're saying regarding the GOP's demographic crisis, but I think the Dems diversity might be broader on the surface but not as deep underneath and that could be a problem.

Here's Nate Silver's take "Trumpís Base Isnít Enough"

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trumps-base-isnt-enough/

Trump can't expand his base anymore than it is now. A lot of women voters have deserted him and as shown by the Midterm results, a lot more independents broke for the Dems.

There is the strong economy to campaign on for 2020 and...the Supreme Court? That's about it!

The swamp hasn't been drained, he works about 3 hours a day, he has disrespected the military and veterans and his "fake news" malarkey won't get him new voters.

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #74 on: November 21, 2018, 10:51:55 PM »
Demographics are running against the white folks in rural area. The cities and suburban areas are where the votes increasingly are. In the mid-terms, Democrats made big inroads into the suburban vote.

You've got white-colored specs on if you think the Republicans are expanding their base.
I dunno, it's tricky to read the tea leaves. I definitely get some of what you're saying regarding the GOP's demographic crisis, but I think the Dems diversity might be broader on the surface but not as deep underneath and that could be a problem.

Here's Nate Silver's take "Trumpís Base Isnít Enough"

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trumps-base-isnt-enough/

Trump can't expand his base anymore than it is now. A lot of women voters have deserted him and as shown by the Midterm results, a lot more independents broke for the Dems.

There is the strong economy to campaign on for 2020 and...the Supreme Court? That's about it!

The swamp hasn't been drained, he works about 3 hours a day, he has disrespected the military and veterans and his "fake news" malarkey won't get him new voters.
The stock market ain't looking so strong. Hopefully, the slide will stop.

Funnily enough, those who have gained the most in this economy--large urban area voters--did not support repubs in the mid-terms.

Offline Mr C

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #75 on: November 22, 2018, 07:38:43 AM »

But yeah, it was all Russia.  :rolleyes:
This.  You can't respond sensibly to what anyone says, so you trot this out.

Whether Russia impacted the outcome or not, they interefered in the election. 

If Trump and/or his campaign staff communicated with those involved, it was illegal.  See?  Get it yet?  Got a clue?

Also, y'know, next time, they might just effect the outcome.  And certainly, with the president refusing to condemn it, China, Iran and other bad actors feel emboldened to chime in on illegal tampering.

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #77 on: November 22, 2018, 09:43:26 AM »
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/federal-judge-rules-law-banning-female-genital-mutilation-is-unconstitutional-dismisses-charges-again-michigan-doctors

Ah, the joys of diversity. Savant must be thrilled.

You don't even have a point here. You just took a sensationalist headline and tried to extrapolate some connection to diversity and my position.

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #78 on: November 22, 2018, 10:11:00 AM »
Quote
So nearly a year after the historic Republican tax cuts, the stock market is lower, a growth slowdown seems to be underway and investors are worried about soaring levels of federal debt. This party barely got started before it was over.

Who woulda thunk it?

Online Savant

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #79 on: November 22, 2018, 10:17:51 AM »
Quote
So nearly a year after the historic Republican tax cuts, the stock market is lower, a growth slowdown seems to be underway and investors are worried about soaring levels of federal debt. This party barely got started before it was over.

Who woulda thunk it?

The Trumps are doing well, though. "Trump properties received $3.2 million during midterms, FEC records show"

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/10/politics/trump-properties-campaign-spending-2018-midterms/index.html