March 25, 2019, 08:31:01 PM


Author Topic: US Politics Megathread  (Read 8637 times)

Online Mr C

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #160 on: January 17, 2019, 01:11:52 PM »
Dude, for the last time, if you "realize" something, you can be assured that I realized it a month before you.  My comment has nothing to do with negotiation tactics, but with quoting Donald J Drumpf as a source of facts.
You still haven't realized it. Donald Trump is not trying to provide facts.
For the very last time, if you realize something, rest assured I knew it when you were still in swaddling clothes.

See, I wasn't even talking to you.  I was talking to CDW.  He put up a tweet by Donald J Drumpf as if that was a factual response to someone else's comment.  I was pointing out that it's pitiful to use a quote from the Liar-in-Chief to respond to anything.  See?  It's not about some BS negotiation tactics that are in your tiny little head, it's about using a quote from Trump as if it has any inherent value.

See?  Now, you come along and point out that Trump is lying but it's okay because it's just a negotiating ploy.  As if 1) I don't know how incompetent people attempt to negotiate, and 2) I care.

Now, go away, you bother me, son. </WC Fields>

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #161 on: January 17, 2019, 01:24:03 PM »
See?  Now, you come along and point out that Trump is lying but it's okay because it's just a negotiating ploy.  As if 1) I don't know how incompetent people attempt to negotiate, and 2) I care.
Right, but that's not the point you made to CDW, which would be the same- "Don't take what Trump says at face value."

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For the very last time, if you realize something, rest assured I knew it when you were still in swaddling clothes.
Right, you know everything and there isn't anything I could possibly know that you don't. Get over yourself.

You apparently didn't know that just because Tom Friedman says something about the Middle East, doesn't mean that's what's really going down in the Middle East. Something that anyone with a lick of common sense would know.

Online Mr C

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #162 on: January 17, 2019, 04:24:48 PM »
See?  Now, you come along and point out that Trump is lying but it's okay because it's just a negotiating ploy.  As if 1) I don't know how incompetent people attempt to negotiate, and 2) I care.
Right, but that's not the point you made to CDW, which would be the same- "Don't take what Trump says at face value."

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For the very last time, if you realize something, rest assured I knew it when you were still in swaddling clothes.
Right, you know everything...
Nah.  More than you, though. Obviously.
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Get over yourself.
Plank, meet mote.

Offline MayorHaggar

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #163 on: January 17, 2019, 05:29:05 PM »
You have repeatedly admitted that Trump is a liar and a conman, but now you're trying to qualify and defend his lies. Why should we listen to you again?
Name a politician who isn't a liar and a conman. Ike? Carter? Obama was relatively honest by politician standards but even he had his fair share. Might as well be like "You've repeatedly said John Cena uses steroids, but now you're trying to qualify and defend him." Some things just come with the trade.

I defended Obama during the Benghazi!!!!! nonsense. I defended Clinton on the EMAILS!!!!!!!! I defend George Soros. I have praised Elena Kagan AND Antonin Scalia. I also defend Korea, Muslims, Jews, white people, and so on.

Why? Because I really don't care for people who freak out over things. People are carrying on about Trump like he's Hitler incarnate or an utter madman. They don't even bother to evaluate how valid their criticisms of him are. They just see "anti-Trump" and agree with it because it's anti-Trump.

Some of us aren't all wrapped up in this "THE SKY IS FALLING AND THE OTHER SIDE IS PURE EVIL!!!!!!" nonsense.

a)
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Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32 PM

    Trump is a liar and a con man.


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Quote from: Mr.DeMartino
There's a difference between an outright lie and staking out a maximum position before negotiating.

b) You defended Clinton about her emails? Dude, you tried to gin this board up about Uranium One because you read something stupid about it on Breitbart or the other white supremacy websites you obsess over.
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Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32 PM

    Trump is a liar and a con man.

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #164 on: January 17, 2019, 07:59:11 PM »
Uranium One and EMAILS!!!! are not the same issue. I brought it up in the context of "If you think Trunp is dodgy, apply the same standard to Clinton".

Offline MayorHaggar

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #165 on: January 18, 2019, 03:44:09 PM »
Uranium One and EMAILS!!!! are not the same issue. I brought it up in the context of "If you think Trunp is dodgy, apply the same standard to Clinton".

They're both bullshit "issues" and you know it.
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Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32 PM

    Trump is a liar and a con man.

Offline gogators!

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #166 on: January 18, 2019, 11:44:17 PM »
Uranium One and EMAILS!!!! are not the same issue. I brought it up in the context of "If you think Trunp is dodgy, apply the same standard to Clinton".

They're both bullshit "issues" and you know it.
But that's his specialty. It seems unfair to criticize him for it.

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #167 on: January 19, 2019, 11:42:11 AM »
They're both bullshit "issues" and you know it.
That's my point. There's about as much "there" as there is on Trump. In both cases you have people adding up 50 bits of maybe to equal "THERE'S TONS OF EVIDENCE!!!!" and "OMG this minor process violation=TREASON AND CONSPIRACY!!!!!"

Thank you for agreeing with my point that EMAILS!!!! is a crock of shit.

Online Mr C

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #168 on: January 19, 2019, 11:22:50 PM »
They're both bullshit "issues" and you know it.
That's my point. There's about as much "there" as there is on Trump. In both cases you have people adding up 50 bits of maybe to equal "THERE'S TONS OF EVIDENCE!!!!" and "OMG this minor process violation=TREASON AND CONSPIRACY!!!!!"

Thank you for agreeing with my point that EMAILS!!!! is a crock of shit.

This is a textbook example of false equivalency.  No sane people give any credence to the Uranium one story--not even you! The timeline doesn't work, Clinton wasn't in a position to have any say-so about that deal, etc, etc.

However, the Trump/Russia story is far, far less settled than that!  Even at your most Trump-obsequious, Wormtongue-imitating best/worst, you have not been able to explain the incessant lying about every single lie upon lie upon lie from Trump, the administration, and his cronies. 

You say over and over that there are other explanations for this behavior (eg, why assume the worst, or--phht! it's some kind of "bargaining position"), but there comes a point of critical mass where only buffoons and the deeply inbred can buy any other explanation: Trump is compromised by his Russian dealings.

I saw a Fox News report about the Trump-Putin meeting in Helsinki where they pointed out that Tillerson was there--that's a lie.  He attended for a short time.  Trump said he has one-on-ones with global leaders all the time--that's a lie.  There are always other people there. 

What possible explanation can there be for Trump to confiscate and destroy interpreters' notes from Putin meetings (and no others)?  There is simply no rational explanation that doesn't involve something questionable.

What's questionable? Ah, let's destroy NATO.  NATO: the most important bulwark against Russia's scheme to destroy European and American unity.  Is there any reasonable rationale for a US President to do so much to weaken our country's power in the world?  No, there isn't.  But a man who is compromised by Russian "kompromat"? Yeah, possibly. 

Now, instead of doing your usual bait-and-switch, why don't you explain why a US President would want to take actions that weaken us so much and empower Russia so much? 

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #169 on: January 20, 2019, 07:21:57 AM »
What's questionable? Ah, let's destroy NATO.  NATO: the most important bulwark against Russia's scheme to destroy European and American unity.  Is there any reasonable rationale for a US President to do so much to weaken our country's power in the world?  No, there isn't.  But a man who is compromised by Russian "kompromat"? Yeah, possibly. 

Now, instead of doing your usual bait-and-switch, why don't you explain why a US President would want to take actions that weaken us so much and empower Russia so much?

Uhhh...How is Trump's position that NATO members should contribute more to NATO and spend more a position that weakens NATO? Isn't that the opposite of weakening NATO? In fact, isn't them spending more the exact opposite of what Russia wants?

So yeah, keep regurgitating liberal talking points that Trump is somehow "pro-Russia" and "anti-NATO". I know you aren't street smart, but I thought you'd at least have enough common sense to realize this.

http://time.com/5220097/despite-the-apparent-bromance-trump-has-been-tough-on-russia/

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #170 on: January 20, 2019, 07:32:14 AM »
What possible explanation can there be for Trump to confiscate and destroy interpreters' notes from Putin meetings (and no others)?  There is simply no rational explanation that doesn't involve something questionable.
Trump has you all worked up and focused on Russia, he does everything he can to play it up, thereby expending your energy and distracting you from other stuff he's actually trying to get done. Also, when nothing comes of it, you'll have massive egg on your face and it will get him sympathy.

It's a classic misdirection ploy. Duh.

That's why you need to focus on Trump's actual actions on Russia, not his theater. If Trump really is a Russian asset, Russia isn't getting shit out of it. Everything people claim Russia is getting is just intangible stuff that's just their opinion "unease among our allies" "boosting Putin's prestige" "lowering respect for the U.S."

Tangible stuff- Expelling Russian diplomats, bombing Syrian airfields, NATO boosting spending, selling U.S. LNG to Germany, etc.

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you have not been able to explain the incessant lying about every single lie upon lie upon lie from Trump, the administration, and his cronies. 
Again genius, lying about talking to a Russian, does not make you part of some sort of Putin Russian conspiracy, just like lying about having had sex with a prostitute does not make you part of some prostitution and human smuggling ring. Assuming such a thing is a fail of critical thinking and logic and one of the worst things an investigator can do. Is it cause to look further? Sure. Does it prove your conspiracy theory? No.

I know you're going to dismiss this as whataboutism, but Hillary DID after all destroy a bunch of records AFTER getting a subpoena as well as taking hammers to cell phones. By your own standard you are applying to Trump, that proves her guilty. Not saying I'm into this, just that you should apply standards fairly and impartially to all parties. Do you?

Offline gogators!

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #171 on: January 20, 2019, 08:36:38 AM »
What possible explanation can there be for Trump to confiscate and destroy interpreters' notes from Putin meetings (and no others)?  There is simply no rational explanation that doesn't involve something questionable.
Trump has you all worked up and focused on Russia, he does everything he can to play it up, thereby expending your energy and distracting you from other stuff he's actually trying to get done. Also, when nothing comes of it, you'll have massive egg on your face and it will get him sympathy.

It's a classic misdirection ploy. Duh.

That's why you need to focus on Trump's actual actions on Russia, not his theater. If Trump really is a Russian asset, Russia isn't getting shit out of it. Everything people claim Russia is getting is just intangible stuff that's just their opinion "unease among our allies" "boosting Putin's prestige" "lowering respect for the U.S."

Tangible stuff- Expelling Russian diplomats, bombing Syrian airfields, NATO boosting spending, selling U.S. LNG to Germany, etc.

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you have not been able to explain the incessant lying about every single lie upon lie upon lie from Trump, the administration, and his cronies. 
Again genius, lying about talking to a Russian, does not make you part of some sort of Putin Russian conspiracy, just like lying about having had sex with a prostitute does not make you part of some prostitution and human smuggling ring. Assuming such a thing is a fail of critical thinking and logic and one of the worst things an investigator can do. Is it cause to look further? Sure. Does it prove your conspiracy theory? No.

I know you're going to dismiss this as whataboutism, but Hillary DID after all destroy a bunch of records AFTER getting a subpoena as well as taking hammers to cell phones. By your own standard you are applying to Trump, that proves her guilty. Not saying I'm into this, just that you should apply standards fairly and impartially to all parties. Do you?
There's what you're known for--a big, fat, juicy lie.

Tangible stuff that trump had no hand in or was unaware of what he was approving. More lies.

Tell us more about your dealings with prostitutes. It's really swell the way you rationalize human failings. Maybe that's why you so dig donnie boy.

Online Mr C

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #172 on: January 20, 2019, 12:52:48 PM »
What's questionable? Ah, let's destroy NATO.  NATO: the most important bulwark against Russia's scheme to destroy European and American unity.  Is there any reasonable rationale for a US President to do so much to weaken our country's power in the world?  No, there isn't.  But a man who is compromised by Russian "kompromat"? Yeah, possibly. 

Now, instead of doing your usual bait-and-switch, why don't you explain why a US President would want to take actions that weaken us so much and empower Russia so much?

Uhhh...How is Trump's position that NATO members should contribute more to NATO and spend more a position that weakens NATO? Isn't that the opposite of weakening NATO? In fact, isn't them spending more the exact opposite of what Russia wants?

So yeah, keep regurgitating liberal talking points that Trump is somehow "pro-Russia" and "anti-NATO". I know you aren't street smart, but I thought you'd at least have enough common sense to realize this.

http://time.com/5220097/despite-the-apparent-bromance-trump-has-been-tough-on-russia/

I don't think that article says what you think it does: "...incoherence from the White House makes it easier for Congress and the Pentagon to push for the foreign policy they support."

Also from the article: "In Syria, U.S. troops are present as much to limit Russian and Iranian influence on the countryís future as to fight the remnants of the Islamic State."  Trump has since then vowed to leave Syria, the final straw that broke Mattis's back. 

So, that article is from March last year, and much has changed since then.  Another example, Trump has repeatedly told aides he wants the US to leave NATO.  Pretty sure that's the effing definition of "anti-NATO"! Didn't you know that? Or was it an inconvenient fact that you chose to ignore?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-nato-withdrawal-us-military-russia-europe-war-dan-shapiro-twitter-a8730156.html (at time of writing, story is 3 days old)

I have enough common sense to know that your outdated sources, dismissive tone and insulting words only show how unsupportable your intellectual position is.

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #173 on: January 20, 2019, 07:59:28 PM »
Trump has since then vowed to leave Syria, the final straw that broke Mattis's back. 
We had didily-poo when it came to influence in Syria. Syria has been on the blacklist for a long time. If anything, our withdrawal from Syria and Trump in office actually gives us a chance to rebuild our relationship with Assad.

At least now we aren't having a U.S. Military vs. CIA proxy war in Syria.
https://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-cia-pentagon-isis-20160327-story.html

FFS, if rebels backed by the US Military are fighting rebels backed by the CIA, then we have no business being over there and Trump is 100% right to pull us out.

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So, that article is from March last year, and much has changed since then.  Another example, Trump has repeatedly told aides he wants the US to leave NATO.  Pretty sure that's the effing definition of "anti-NATO"! Didn't you know that? Or was it an inconvenient fact that you chose to ignore?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-nato-withdrawal-us-military-russia-europe-war-dan-shapiro-twitter-a8730156.html (at time of writing, story is 3 days old)
What's changed? Jack shit. Is Putin suddenly storming Estonia? Has NATO crumbled? Is the Russian bear running roughshod? No. The only thing they're doing is ongoing activity in their own backyard with Ukraine. That's between Russia and Ukraine. Maybe if we hadn't pushed the Orange Revolution in Ukraine with a bunch of propaganda and crap and interfered in Ukraine's internal politics, Russia might not be involved there.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15969-2004Dec21.html

So have we actually left NATO? No.

And stop putting so much stock into DC scuttlebutt and rumors.

Offline gogators!

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #174 on: January 21, 2019, 01:41:30 AM »
Trump has since then vowed to leave Syria, the final straw that broke Mattis's back. 
We had didily-poo when it came to influence in Syria. Syria has been on the blacklist for a long time. If anything, our withdrawal from Syria and Trump in office actually gives us a chance to rebuild our relationship with Assad.

At least now we aren't having a U.S. Military vs. CIA proxy war in Syria.
https://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-cia-pentagon-isis-20160327-story.html

FFS, if rebels backed by the US Military are fighting rebels backed by the CIA, then we have no business being over there and Trump is 100% right to pull us out.

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So, that article is from March last year, and much has changed since then.  Another example, Trump has repeatedly told aides he wants the US to leave NATO.  Pretty sure that's the effing definition of "anti-NATO"! Didn't you know that? Or was it an inconvenient fact that you chose to ignore?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-nato-withdrawal-us-military-russia-europe-war-dan-shapiro-twitter-a8730156.html (at time of writing, story is 3 days old)
What's changed? Jack shit. Is Putin suddenly storming Estonia? Has NATO crumbled? Is the Russian bear running roughshod? No. The only thing they're doing is ongoing activity in their own backyard with Ukraine. That's between Russia and Ukraine. Maybe if we hadn't pushed the Orange Revolution in Ukraine with a bunch of propaganda and crap and interfered in Ukraine's internal politics, Russia might not be involved there.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15969-2004Dec21.html

So have we actually left NATO? No.

And stop putting so much stock into DC scuttlebutt and rumors.
Why would the US want to rebuild an association with Assad? Yes, we have no influence in syria, which is why the Kurds are so worried. Don't forget Israel.

Online Mr C

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #175 on: January 21, 2019, 07:12:58 AM »
Trump has since then vowed to leave Syria, the final straw that broke Mattis's back. 
We had didily-poo when it came to influence in Syria. Syria has been on the blacklist for a long time. If anything, our withdrawal from Syria and Trump in office actually gives us a chance to rebuild our relationship with Assad.

At least now we aren't having a U.S. Military vs. CIA proxy war in Syria.
https://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-cia-pentagon-isis-20160327-story.html

FFS, if rebels backed by the US Military are fighting rebels backed by the CIA, then we have no business being over there and Trump is 100% right to pull us out.

Quote
So, that article is from March last year, and much has changed since then.  Another example, Trump has repeatedly told aides he wants the US to leave NATO.  Pretty sure that's the effing definition of "anti-NATO"! Didn't you know that? Or was it an inconvenient fact that you chose to ignore?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-nato-withdrawal-us-military-russia-europe-war-dan-shapiro-twitter-a8730156.html (at time of writing, story is 3 days old)
What's changed? Jack shit. Is Putin suddenly storming Estonia? Has NATO crumbled? Is the Russian bear running roughshod? No. The only thing they're doing is ongoing activity in their own backyard with Ukraine. That's between Russia and Ukraine. Maybe if we hadn't pushed the Orange Revolution in Ukraine with a bunch of propaganda and crap and interfered in Ukraine's internal politics, Russia might not be involved there.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15969-2004Dec21.html

So have we actually left NATO? No.

And stop putting so much stock into DC scuttlebutt and rumors.
1) Dude, you said I was "regurgitating liberal talking points" that Trump was somehow "anti-NATO".  In fact, he has repeatedly said he wants to get the US out of NATO.  Now you say that because he hasn't succeeded that somehow means something.  Well, I guess it does: you're just plain wrong.

2) So, a couple of news articles from up to FOURTEEN years ago demonstrate you have a better grasp of what's happening in Syria and Russia TODAY than Secretary Mattis. It is to laugh.

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #176 on: January 21, 2019, 08:59:58 AM »
1) Dude, you said I was "regurgitating liberal talking points" that Trump was somehow "anti-NATO".  In fact, he has repeatedly said he wants to get the US out of NATO.  Now you say that because he hasn't succeeded that somehow means something.  Well, I guess it does: you're just plain wrong.
He has also said he wants everyone to pay more into NATO and the only reason he wants to get out of NATO is because other countries aren't paying their fair share.

Donald Trump says a lot of things, at times contradictory and usually calculated for effect.

I prefer to focus on actions more than words. I don't shit myself in fear over every little thing someone says. You'd think you would have learned that after living in South Korea and dealing with the constant stream of threats and proclamations.

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2) So, a couple of news articles from up to FOURTEEN years ago demonstrate you have a better grasp of what's happening in Syria and Russia TODAY than Secretary Mattis. It is to laugh.
I love how you don't dispute anything in the articles and instead resort to an appeal to authority with Mattis.

Did I say I had a better grasp? I simply said I favor withdrawal because it's devolved to the point of the CIA and U.S. military essentially fighting a proxy war against each other. Between that and the demise of ISIS, it's clear that our reason for being there is at an end.

I also think we should stop meddling in the affairs of Eastern Europe. If we want countries to respect our sphere of influence and the Western Hemisphere, then we need to respect theirs. That doesn't mean turning our backs or appeasement, but it does mean we shouldn't stomp around the area, declaring it as ours and backing countries like Russia or China into a corner and encouraging small countries like Georgia or a Baltic state to pick a conflict and try and drag us into it, ala WWI.

If that is what Mattis favors, then I am in fundamental disagreement with him. I do not favor the foreign policies advocated by Bush and Clinton and other NeoCons. The best thing Obama did during his presidency was stand up to Clinton and McCain and other hawks on major U.S. intervention in Syria and expanding involvement in Ukraine.

Do you actually agree with those policies or are you just reflexively anti-Trump?

Online Mr C

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #177 on: January 21, 2019, 09:45:08 AM »


I love how you don't dispute anything in the articles and instead resort to an appeal to authority with Mattis.
I dispute their validity TODAY considering their age makes them outdated, a point I believe I made clear.  I believe Mattis has greater expertise about the current situation in Russia and Syria than an article written FOURTEEN years ago. 

Is that an appeal to authority, or just basic common effing sense?
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Did I say I had a better grasp? I simply said I favor withdrawal because it's devolved to the point of the CIA and U.S. military essentially fighting a proxy war against each other. Between that and the demise of ISIS, it's clear that our reason for being there is at an end.

I also think we should stop meddling in the affairs of Eastern Europe. If we want countries to respect our sphere of influence and the Western Hemisphere, then we need to respect theirs. That doesn't mean turning our backs or appeasement, but it does mean we shouldn't stomp around the area, declaring it as ours and backing countries like Russia or China into a corner and encouraging small countries like Georgia or a Baltic state to pick a conflict and try and drag us into it, ala WWI.

If that is what Mattis favors,
You don't know what Mattis favors?  Not surprised, since you live in Trump's no-facts zone. But apparently, he's practically a Democrat ...

But enough. I'm not going to continue a discussion with someone so willfully ignorant.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 10:35:34 AM by Mr C »

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #178 on: January 31, 2019, 02:38:19 AM »
No, you're right! It was all about Russian adoption.

If the House Democrats have investigations to the level of the Republicans' Benghazi investigations then Trump is going to be raging mad for at least the next two years.
And produce the same kind of result.

What are they going to get him on? They had a 30 minute meeting with some lady who promised evidence of a crime and left the meeting after it became clear that she didn't have anything? What crime is that?

We don't know. You don't know. Mueller doesn't leak.
Criminal conspiracy to defraud the American people of proper democratic outcomes can involve a number of players.
One can only really speculate as to who might be indicted next. Donny Junior?  Roger Stone?


Well, so far I picked Roger Stone successfully. Donny Junior will be next once the republicans in congress quit stalling and appoint their delegates to the intelligence committee so transcripts of Donny Juniors previous testimony can be  released to Mueller and a perjury indictment can be laid out.

https://www.newsweek.com/mueller-perjury-charges-donald-trump-jr-1306845

 

Offline CDW

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Re: US Politics Megathread
« Reply #179 on: February 01, 2019, 02:04:06 AM »


Letís face it: Walls work. They have worked in numerous places in the world and throughout history. But politicians like Pelosi and Schumer are more interested in pandering to the extremists in their base than in doing what is best for America. They also realize more illegals crossing the border and making babies results in more people voting Democrat.