Relationship building help.

[Cyanea]

How can you based an entire aspect of life based on 1 factor.  The economy has changed, infaltion has affected families spending dynamics, the government has changed, public sentiment to their security has not been different in 60 years - all this will change the life of the average family

The basic dynamic of having a deterrent to ensure people behave has never changed. How hard is it for you to understand? All civilized societies are based on the concept of penalties for wrongdoers. Humanity has existed this way for millenia. But suddenly with your stupid western arrogance you decide that you're superior to all that and its better to let offendors do whatever they please without consequences. it is moronic, you have completely been brainwashed into the humanist agenda of subverting legitimate authority. read the humanist manifesto. Look up John Dewey. These people have been conditioning poor saps like you with their media indoctrination for decades now, manipulating and destroying education and then inflicting their agenda onto the world  via the UN, UNICEF and othe "international" bodies (all controlled from new York).

Do you really think that beating a child leads to anything other than fear and resentment?

You have no clue what you are talking about.

i am advocating for a return to the cane. How many times do i have to keep re-stating this. T.H.E   C.A.N.E.

Not people slapping, punching, or doing anything else. So no need to keep misrepresenting what i'm trying to tell you. No need to keep taking the worst examples you can find off the interenet and pretending its the norm. Anything can be harmful if you do it wrong. Some people drive drunk. So then shall we say that driving is evil,  ban cars and stop people learning to drive? Of course not. yet this is exactly what you are trying to do with CP. You're taking one or two bad examples and using it to say that the whole of CP is wrong. Its such a pathetic argument.


Ok? try and debate honestly,  like a grown up.

The cane, exercised by the principal only.  This is the old British system passed on to the colonies, such as Malaysia (below). And it certainly served the colonies well, and the largest empire the world has ever seen.

Caning still needed to discipline students in school, says STU chief

KUCHING: Caning is still necessary in schools to get students to realise their folly but it must never be used to the extent of causing trauma and hurt.

Sarawak Teachers Union (STU) president William Ghani Bina said though he would never subscribe to disciplining by instilling fear, the cane’s purpose was actually to help keep students on good behaviour.


He said the provision clearly stated that only the headmaster could cane students and if a teacher or another senior school figure were to do it, they would need an authorisation letter from the headmaster or principal first.

He said it was also clearly stated in the provision that female students were not to be caned at all but be given other forms of punishment like cleaning the toilets, picking up litter around the school or sweeping.

“Girls are not even allowed to be asked to cut grass as punishment,” he said.

Ghani said though caning was allowed on male students, the punishment should never be too harsh and heavy until it left a bad bruise.

Also, the pupil must be caned only on their palms or buttocks with their pants on.

Ghani explained that for a headmaster to resort to caning, the misdeed must be a serious one like fighting or bullying.

https://www.thestar.com.my/news/community/2013/02/28/caning-still-needed-to-discipline-students-in-school-says-stu-chief/#iLPiDyLFk9Lf9EXk.99

This is the basic system used in most former British colonies. Korea was never a colony so they had some wacky ideas like punching students. Of course its stupid. But thats not what I am advocating.

[sligo]

How can you based an entire aspect of life based on 1 factor.  The economy has changed, infaltion has affected families spending dynamics, the government has changed, public sentiment to their security has not been different in 60 years - all this will change the life of the average family

The basic dynamic of having a deterrent to ensure people behave has never changed. How hard is it for you to understand? All civilized societies are based on the concept of penalties for wrongdoers. Humanity has existed this way for millenia. But suddenly with your stupid western arrogance you decide that you're superior to all that and its better to let offendors do whatever they please without consequences. it is moronic, you have completely been brainwashed into the humanist agenda of subverting legitimate authority. read the humanist manifesto. Look up John Dewey. These people have been conditioning poor saps like you with their media indoctrination for decades now, manipulating and destroying education and then inflicting their agenda onto the world  via the UN, UNICEF and othe "international" bodies (all controlled from new York).

Do you really think that beating a child leads to anything other than fear and resentment?

You have no clue what you are talking about.

i am advocating for a return to the cane. How many times do i have to keep re-stating this. T.H.E   C.A.N.E.

Not people slapping, punching, or doing anything else. So no need to keep misrepresenting what i'm trying to tell you. No need to keep taking the worst examples you can find off the interenet and pretending its the norm. Anything can be harmful if you do it wrong. Some people drive drunk. So then shall we say that driving is evil,  ban cars and stop people learning to drive? Of course not. yet this is exactly what you are trying to do with CP. You're taking one or two bad examples and using it to say that the whole of CP is wrong. Its such a pathetic argument.


Ok? try and debate honestly,  like a grown up.

The cane, exercised by the principal only.  This is the old British system passed on to the colonies, such as Malaysia (below). And it certainly served the colonies well, and the largest empire the world has ever seen.

Caning still needed to discipline students in school, says STU chief

KUCHING: Caning is still necessary in schools to get students to realise their folly but it must never be used to the extent of causing trauma and hurt.

Sarawak Teachers Union (STU) president William Ghani Bina said though he would never subscribe to disciplining by instilling fear, the cane’s purpose was actually to help keep students on good behaviour.


He said the provision clearly stated that only the headmaster could cane students and if a teacher or another senior school figure were to do it, they would need an authorisation letter from the headmaster or principal first.

He said it was also clearly stated in the provision that female students were not to be caned at all but be given other forms of punishment like cleaning the toilets, picking up litter around the school or sweeping.

“Girls are not even allowed to be asked to cut grass as punishment,” he said.

Ghani said though caning was allowed on male students, the punishment should never be too harsh and heavy until it left a bad bruise.

Also, the pupil must be caned only on their palms or buttocks with their pants on.

Ghani explained that for a headmaster to resort to caning, the misdeed must be a serious one like fighting or bullying.

https://www.thestar.com.my/news/community/2013/02/28/caning-still-needed-to-discipline-students-in-school-says-stu-chief/#iLPiDyLFk9Lf9EXk.99

This is the basic system used in most former British colonies. Korea was never a colony so they had some wacky ideas like punching students. Of course its stupid. But thats not what I am advocating.

You live in a fairy land!  I don't know what i'm talking about? do you?

Regardless of whether it is a fist, a palm or a cane, do you trust the temperament of the average Korean teacher to dish out measured appropriate physical discipline to a child?  The videos i posted showed corporal punishment happening in a time when it has been BANNED.  Imagine what they would do if they were legally allowed to lay their hands on a child?  This is a country where, if no-one sees you break the law, it is fine - hence the way Koreans drive, park and smoke where they shouldn't).

You are advocating that in a country where whoever shouts loudest is correct, where fear and intimidation is used to suppress dissent, where over-drinking is almost promoted (even teachers come into school stupidly hungover) where shite trickles down, and the lower you are, the more crap you are given, where the stress levels are so high that suicide is seen as legitimate escape by a huge number.  You want to trust these people with a WEAPON to administer measured physical discipline to a child?  Do you trust these teachers to know when to stop?  Give your head a shake!

2 questions, Do you have children?  If yes, are you happy to let other people cane them?

[Cyanea]

do you trust the temperament of the average Korean teacher to dish out measured appropriate physical discipline to a child? 

I'm not asking the teacher to dish it out: only the principal.

And that under observation of at least two other staff members. Of a limited number of strikes only, Not physically harming the child but enough to curb misbehaviour. With the consent of the parents.

I don't see why you would rather have western civilization go to ruin rather than simply implement the above on a minority of the worst offenders?

are you happy to let other people cane them?

If they were seriously misbehaving then yes. I don't want them to grow into criminals and abusers just for the fear of injuring their precious "self esteem".

I would ask you another question:

If your child was being bullied and beaten up at school, would you want the perpetrator to be effectively punished and deterred?

[sligo]

do you trust the temperament of the average Korean teacher to dish out measured appropriate physical discipline to a child? 

I'm not asking the teacher to dish it out: only the principal.

And that under observation of at least two other staff members. Of a limited number of strikes only, Not physically harming the child but enough to curb misbehaviour. With the consent of the parents.

I don't see why you would rather have western civilization go to ruin rather than simply implement the above on a minority of the worst offenders?

are you happy to let other people cane them?

If they were seriously misbehaving then yes. I don't want them to grow into criminals and abusers just for the fear of injuring their precious "self esteem".

I would ask you another question:

If your child was being bullied and beaten up at school, would you want the perpetrator to be effectively punished and deterred?

You didn't answer if you had kids

In a country where co-teachers do not show up for their English classes, even though they are mandated to, do you really think that :

A: They will be on call to drop everything to watch a beating.

B: They will stand up to the principal if they think he is going too far?  One protest against the principal will result in the death of their career!

Seriously, do you understnd the way Koreans work at all?

[sligo]

do you trust the temperament of the average Korean teacher to dish out measured appropriate physical discipline to a child? 

I'm not asking the teacher to dish it out: only the principal.

And that under observation of at least two other staff members. Of a limited number of strikes only, Not physically harming the child but enough to curb misbehaviour. With the consent of the parents.

I don't see why you would rather have western civilization go to ruin rather than simply implement the above on a minority of the worst offenders?

are you happy to let other people cane them?

If they were seriously misbehaving then yes. I don't want them to grow into criminals and abusers just for the fear of injuring their precious "self esteem".

I would ask you another question:

If your child was being bullied and beaten up at school, would you want the perpetrator to be effectively punished and deterred?

Depending on the age of the bullies. If they are young i would ask the school to take a zero tolerance approach and exclude them, temporarily at first, and permanantly for a second offence ( as in the UK).  If they are of an age that is deemed responsible for their actions, i would contact the police and request criminal proceedings for assault. 

Saying i am going to hit you to teach you not to hit sends a mixed message.

[Cyanea]

Depending on the age of the bullies. If they are young i would ask the school to take a zero tolerance approach and exclude them, temporarily at first, and permanantly for a second offence ( as in the UK).

That is totally needless and creates more timewasting than necessary. If you expelled or suspended kids every time they committed an offence the schools would be empty and half the kids would be on a constant rotation from school to school. It doesn't solve the problem.

Instead of shifting the problem to others, schools must take responsibility for correcting the problem themselves. This is what schools are for: to instill proper behaviour into the children they are helping to raise.

And the problem is easily solved. Apply CP, and this type of thing disappears. Don't apply CP, and your problem mushrooms and spreads until your school is unmanageable.

If they are of an age that is deemed responsible for their actions, i would contact the police and request criminal proceedings for assault. 

Well that is ridiculous, you are shifting the problem onto someone else once again. the police should have no part in the classroom. Traditionally they are for dealing with adult problems, yet because you've abdicated responsibility for controlling minors at school, you now want the police to do it for you. Absurd.

Saying i am going to hit you to teach you not to hit sends a mixed message.

No, it sends a message of justice.

Justice is another pillar of a functional community that you are trying to undermine. if you want kids to develop into responsible and community-minded adults, you need to teach them that there are consequences for anti-social behaviour and that the punishment fits the crime.


Why is it that all the people who are against CP tend to be rude, insulting, selfish, arrogant, ill-behaved? You simply do not find this attitude in people who were raised with discipline.

[sligo]

Depending on the age of the bullies. If they are young i would ask the school to take a zero tolerance approach and exclude them, temporarily at first, and permanantly for a second offence ( as in the UK).

That is totally needless and creates more timewasting than necessary. If you expelled or suspended kids every time they committed an offence the schools would be empty and half the kids would be on a constant rotation from school to school. It doesn't solve the problem.

Instead of shifting the problem to others, schools must take responsibility for correcting the problem themselves. This is what schools are for: to instill proper behaviour into the children they are helping to raise.

And the problem is easily solved. Apply CP, and this type of thing disappears. Don't apply CP, and your problem mushrooms and spreads until your school is unmanageable.

If they are of an age that is deemed responsible for their actions, i would contact the police and request criminal proceedings for assault. 

Well that is ridiculous, you are shifting the problem onto someone else once again. the police should have no part in the classroom. Traditionally they are for dealing with adult problems, yet because you've abdicated responsibility for controlling minors at school, you now want the police to do it for you. Absurd.

Saying i am going to hit you to teach you not to hit sends a mixed message.

No, it sends a message of justice.

Justice is another pillar of a functional community that you are trying to undermine. if you want kids to develop into responsible and community-minded adults, you need to teach them that there are consequences for anti-social behaviour and that the punishment fits the crime.


Why is it that all the people who are against CP tend to be rude, insulting, selfish, arrogant, ill-behaved? You simply do not find this attitude in people who were raised with discipline.

So, you have no kids then.  Got it.  You have no idea what it is like to be a parent.  You are looking at the issue from 1 side, and think your answer fits all aspects of the solution.

I am against CP, and am not selfish, nor arrogant, nor ill-behaved.  I have angaged with you in a manner similar to your posts. 

As for exclusion, surely that sends more of a deterrent message to a group of people who believe if they set a foot wrong academically, their future is over.  Fear of the birch is nothing for kids who are beaten at home on a regular basis.

[Cyanea]

So, you have no kids then.  Got it.  You have no idea what it is like to be a parent.

Why would I tell you anything about myself on an anonymous message board? stick to the issue, don't focus on the messenger.

Of course parents are protective of their kids. But this instinct can easily go too far if parents are allowed to dictate the educational process.

There is no way parents should be allowed to tell trained educators how to teach, something that happens far too much in Korea and now the west. This is a corruption that creeps in when you make education a for-profit business. They have no clue what happens in a classroom or how to control classes: it is wrong that they even were allowed to vote on whether to ban CP or not.

In many cases parents are overly proud and unrealistic. They only see one side of the situation. Increasingly, as  in Korea, their kids have become an extension of their ego. When they become customers, then they are never told how awful their spawns behaviour can be. they aren't told that their kid is a bully who wastes everyones time and disrupts classes for years at a time. They are never told these things for loss of face. All they ever hear is their little darlings side of the story. And even when their kids misbehaviour is known, they still deny it and go against the teacher. Why? because psychologically speaking, modern society is increasingly narcissitic and people do not take responsibility for themselves. instead authority figures are increasingly victimized.

In any case, as a parent, you should be more concerned that your child is able to learn in a secure environment and that class time is not wasted constantly by miscreant students. You should not be concerned about your child recieving the harmless cane, you should be happy they are being corrected. Do you really think your kids never misbehave? And if they do, do you think they have a right to act up and ruin other people's education? I don't think so.

You obsess about the rights of the child, but what about the rights of the teacher? Do you think teachers should be subject to verbal abuse and violence from their students? because this is increasingly what has happened since they withdrew CP. The whole teaching profession is in trauma, schools are violent nightmares that students have to survive, not secure happy communities. All because you in your liberal arrogance you decided to remove a basic  cornerstone of education.

I am against CP

I think you need to take a looooong look at why, sligo. because your opinion seems to be irrational and emotional rather than based on any facts. Where did you get your opinion from? You seem to have been brainwashed by popular media rather than any actual experience. In that case you should know that the media is invariably slanted  to present things in a certain way to suit the political beliefs of its owner. How do I know? because I used to be a journalist for the newspapers. So once again, I speak from experience and you don't.

The facts are that the cane is harmless and that CP when done correctly and in a controlled way, is overwhelmingly beneficial to all concerned.

As for exclusion, surely that sends more of a deterrent message to a group of people who believe if they set a foot wrong academically, their future is over.

They're kids and you want their future to be over because of one mistake? Who sounds like an abuser now?

All kids make mistakes, no need to ruin their lives because of it. And they make a lot fewer mistakes if they have CP.

Suspension and expulsion is for consistent serious offenders who do not react to CP or whose parents do not rein them in. Its the very last resort. Before you even get there, a short sharp shock in the form of the cane resolves problems quickly and then its forgotten. No need for your lengthy timewasting and socially damaging punishments.

[oglop]

It's pretty interesting talking to my adult students about corporal punishment. Most of it sounds down right scary. They'd recall tales of being hit at the teacher's whim, even for giving an incorrect answer. Just the other day, every student (out of 5) told stories of being sexually abused by their teacher (this was middle/high school), under the guise of punishment.

Interestingly, none of them would want their children to physically punished by the teachers, simply because of all the shit they had to deal with themselves

[Cyanea]

And there we have it.

Have fun toadying around after your students begging them to respect you. 

none of them would want their children to physically punished by the teachers, simply because of all the shit they had to deal with themselves

Oh like having to actually respect their teacher? yeah must've been traumatic for them.

It's pretty interesting talking to my adult students about corporal punishment. Most of it sounds down right scary. They'd recall tales of being hit at the teacher's whim, even for giving an incorrect answer. Just the other day, every student (out of 5) told stories of being sexually abused by their teacher (this was middle/high school), under the guise of punishment.

The problem is.. Korea did CP all wrong. Which is why nobody wants to revisit it. They were totally clueless, it was totally unregulated. Of course you don't slap and punch kids. That's just crazy.


The best thing that could've happened to Korea would've been to have been colonized by the British.

Not only would they have gotten free English lessons, they would also have the cane as the correct form of discipline. That way you wouldn't see all the pushiness and rudeness you see in Korea today. They would've learned manners and consideration for others.

[oglop]

Okay, then

[Cyanea]

I'd just come from a terrible stint in an elementary

Doesn't sound like you're having much fun in this system of chaos you've created 
 

They even had a Facebook group set up that the teachers found.  It detailed and joked about all the things they'd done to piss of the teachers.

Strange idea of normality you have.

the ringleader burped audibly in class.  I told her off.  Then she did it a second time but really close to me.  Cue calm anger, and her getting chucked out.

woooooo being asked to leave class so I get more time to play on my cellphone. I'm soooo scared! 

you could almost smell the violence and anger in the corridors.

But its all good because violent and crazy is better than orderly and caring according to you.

They've never had CP and their behaviour is fine.

I don't think so, sweetheart.

Everything you've said simply confirms how dysfunctional schools have become without CP and proper discipline.


But keep up your self-inflicted suffering if you must, I do realize you don't have a clue what a happy and functional  school even looks like.

[Cyanea]

I think it's best for you to just slide back along into your conservative anger chamber that you obviously reside in, and where you rage against all those horrid liberal things you despise so much.  Sad really that you feel the need to take all that pent up aggression and anger out on children.

You're out of control and overstepping the line between discussing something and attacking someone.

[sligo]

I think it's best for you to just slide back along into your conservative anger chamber that you obviously reside in, and where you rage against all those horrid liberal things you despise so much.  Sad really that you feel the need to take all that pent up aggression and anger out on children.

You're out of control and overstepping the line between discussing something and attacking someone.

The right-wing defence:

If you lose an argument, play the victim.  Maybe Dave should be caned for hurting your feelings.  That way he will never do ot again, because, as you have alluded to, it is a cure-all solution that works instantly!

[Cyanea]

I think it's best for you to just slide back along into your conservative anger chamber that you obviously reside in, and where you rage against all those horrid liberal things you despise so much.  Sad really that you feel the need to take all that pent up aggression and anger out on children.

You're out of control and overstepping the line between discussing something and attacking someone.

The right-wing defence:

If you lose an argument, play the victim.  Maybe Dave should be caned for hurting your feelings.  That way he will never do ot again, because, as you have alluded to, it is a cure-all solution that works instantly!

Yourself and stepz couldn't answer basic questions or prove your point.
ie: Prove that student behaviour and performance has improved since the withdrawal of CP

You misrepresented and mis-characterized my argument instead of reacting to what I was actually saying.
ie: I am for bringing back the cane, to be administered by the headmaster only, after parental consent.. not "teachers randomly punching kids in anger".


You are both dishonest and incapable of basic logic.

[sligo]

Let's see, since the withdrawal of CP GCSE and A level exam results have risen year on year in the UK.  Students are doing better in school.  Maybe removing the fear of punishment from the class has benefitted students? 

Special needs strategies have meant that support is given to problem students so that they don't disrupt classes, rather than beating them to behave, thus allowing mainstream education to occur unhampered.  This has benefitted all, and lead to the better exam results as mentioned above.

Does that answer your question?

[annataleen]

The OP asked for advice about a class. None of the posts since the first page offer any advice for her. Please keep the thread on topic. If you don't have advice for her, move on. She already indicated that she doesn't want to use CP.

Thank you.