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Author Topic: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics  (Read 7961 times)

Offline Kayos

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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #120 on: September 10, 2018, 01:29:07 PM »
LOL at some of the comments in this thread. If it was so selfish to have kids have you ever gotten in your parents faces and screamed at them "why did you selfish sods have me?"

I know its inconvenient to have kids and they entail responsibility (hence the thread title) but without them it sounds like developed countries and all the cultures associated with them will disappear.

And of course the future will be a dark place because there are no children. Self fulfilling prophecy.

Actually, I have yelled that at my mother multiple times, one of my brothers has too.
Her reason was none other than: Because I wanted kids.

Offline Kayos

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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #121 on: September 10, 2018, 01:44:12 PM »

I recently turned 29, and I've never wanted kids myself, and still don't.
I've never really enjoyed being around other people, and I struggle with social skills greatly.
I mentioned this earlier in the thread as a joke but, I do agree with this a little bit: Having children is a selfish act too. Parents usually have a child because THEY want a child, we can't exactly ask an unborn baby if they want to be born, though.

But personally, these days, the state of the world is more in line with why I still don't want to have children.
It's basically becoming harder to live, with governments becoming more and more corrupt, big company CEOs becoming too greedy and always wanting more, when their family is already set up for at least 10 lifetimes. Global warming and stuff like that. I could probably go on, but I hope you get the idea.
I personally think bringing a child into the state of things now is a horrible thing to do.

And I think that is a lot of the stuff that people don't take into consideration. Conditions of the world that you'd be subjecting another life to.
If the world can get to a position where the conditions will be better, then I could see me changing my stance a bit.

Sorry, if I explained this poorly. I'm not all here today.

I think the idea that it's becoming harder and harder to live doesn't really hold up. (maybe depending on where you live I guess) My parents families didn't have 2 nickels to rub together when they were kids, and they did just fine. Go back to my grandparents childhood and things were largely the same. It doesn't require exorbitant amounts of money to be a decent parent. A lower middle class income will cut it as long as you're living in a place with a reasonable cost of living. (and living frugally yourself)

As far as the state of the world, I think you're way off base. Violent crime has gone way down all over North America, and the idea that CEO's taking too much money is causing some kind of problem for the rest of society is simply false. If a CEO is being paid more than he's worth the board can simply vote to reduce his pay.

Regarding having kids as being selfish, it is in some sense I guess. You do it because you want to after all. I think the proper way to handle that is to accept that this confers a responsibility to make sure your kids grow up loved and taken care of.

Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone they should or anything, just rambling. I like to ramble.

Some of the highest birthrates are in India and Indonesia. These are countries with far less to live on than Western countries and deal with more disease and crime. Life is much MUCH easier than it was years ago.

The real cause for low birth rates is not evil CEO's, lack of resources, global warming, etc. Those are poor excuses. People choose not to because it inconveniences them in the easiest time to be alive ever with so much other stuff to do. Having children is a massive sacrifice to someone's lifestyle, time, and finances. It's not to say anyone is right or wrong, but that personal priorities have shifted and having kids seems a bit more trivial now.

Might be a poor excuse for you and the other guy but, while I agree that there isn't a lack of resources; evil ceo's and stuff is a thing.
There was a thing in NZ about a year or 2 ago, some company's board asked the CEO to reduce costs by $600,000 per year. The guy fired people until their yearly wage combined equaled around $600,000 - and then they gave him that much as a raise per year for meeting that. - not a 1 time bonus either.

At one of my old jobs, we were constantly understaffed. The boss's boss there was consistently and constantly getting complaints from customers for the lack of staff members. The stores profits were higher than the 3 other stores (from the towns next to us), and were much more understaffed than theirs. That boss who was getting complaints all the time. He was refusing to let the store hire because he was getting large bonuses for the same reason, by "reducing costs". The few times he'd let the store hire, the people hired would leave within the first 2 - 3 weeks, because they would be overworked from the go.

For me, I consider it to be a real problem, and not something I'd want to subject another life to.
You're welcome to disagree all you want, this is one of a few things I'm really close minded on though. :P

Offline MoneyMike

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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #122 on: September 10, 2018, 02:08:10 PM »
LOL at some of the comments in this thread. If it was so selfish to have kids have you ever gotten in your parents faces and screamed at them "why did you selfish sods have me?"

I know its inconvenient to have kids and they entail responsibility (hence the thread title) but without them it sounds like developed countries and all the cultures associated with them will disappear.

And of course the future will be a dark place because there are no children. Self fulfilling prophecy.

There actually are people who think like that. See David Benatar and the anti-natalist movement.

They are (IMO) pretty shitty.

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #123 on: September 10, 2018, 02:13:53 PM »
As far as how vacant I am, which is kind of a shitty thing to say to someone you don't know

Oh now you're the victim? Well, this is how you labelled someone you didn't know earlier:

Quote
Bitter and alone. Female equivalent of incel.

You attacked someone you don't know with a cruel stereotype, you attempted to devalue someone simply because they have chosen a different option in life to yourself.

Quote
I'm not here to score internet points by demonstrating how cool I am

Neither am I, I'm trying to point out the casual stigma and spite that society inflicts on single people. You'rs and eggiguffers posts illustrated that. Sorry if I offended you, and you seem an ok guy, but,.. please be careful about casually marginalizing and belittling single people.

You never hear a single person attacking married people, yet married people or couples with kids habitually attack single people.

Just an example: you see a single person: you go over and tell them "don't worry, i'm sure you'll find someone one day. You must be lonely".

Lets reverse the roles for a second. Imagine if a single person walked up to you and said "don't worry, I'm sure you'll get divorced one day. You must be tired of having no life of your own".


Of course, no single person would ever say that. Yet married people get away with comments like that all the time. Not to mention that e.g. single people earn less than married people, even when holding the same qualifications. Or the vast number of benefits and tax breaks married people get vs singles. There is a huge bias against single people in society. Its wrong!

Maybe this will finally change soon, because single people are about to become a majority in the west.

Ha, ha, single people are being 'marginalized' are they? I guess by not having ' married privilege' they are being 'denied a voice.' :cheesy:

Like all people who complain about being marginalized when anyone has a go at them it's always because of their identity, not their personality. I had a pop at one of the women in that article because  the things she said were silly and immature, not because she's single.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 02:21:32 PM by eggieguffer »

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #124 on: September 10, 2018, 02:15:50 PM »

I recently turned 29, and I've never wanted kids myself, and still don't.
I've never really enjoyed being around other people, and I struggle with social skills greatly.
I mentioned this earlier in the thread as a joke but, I do agree with this a little bit: Having children is a selfish act too. Parents usually have a child because THEY want a child, we can't exactly ask an unborn baby if they want to be born, though.

But personally, these days, the state of the world is more in line with why I still don't want to have children.
It's basically becoming harder to live, with governments becoming more and more corrupt, big company CEOs becoming too greedy and always wanting more, when their family is already set up for at least 10 lifetimes. Global warming and stuff like that. I could probably go on, but I hope you get the idea.
I personally think bringing a child into the state of things now is a horrible thing to do.

And I think that is a lot of the stuff that people don't take into consideration. Conditions of the world that you'd be subjecting another life to.
If the world can get to a position where the conditions will be better, then I could see me changing my stance a bit.

Sorry, if I explained this poorly. I'm not all here today.

I think the idea that it's becoming harder and harder to live doesn't really hold up. (maybe depending on where you live I guess) My parents families didn't have 2 nickels to rub together when they were kids, and they did just fine. Go back to my grandparents childhood and things were largely the same. It doesn't require exorbitant amounts of money to be a decent parent. A lower middle class income will cut it as long as you're living in a place with a reasonable cost of living. (and living frugally yourself)

As far as the state of the world, I think you're way off base. Violent crime has gone way down all over North America, and the idea that CEO's taking too much money is causing some kind of problem for the rest of society is simply false. If a CEO is being paid more than he's worth the board can simply vote to reduce his pay.

Regarding having kids as being selfish, it is in some sense I guess. You do it because you want to after all. I think the proper way to handle that is to accept that this confers a responsibility to make sure your kids grow up loved and taken care of.

Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone they should or anything, just rambling. I like to ramble.

Some of the highest birthrates are in India and Indonesia. These are countries with far less to live on than Western countries and deal with more disease and crime. Life is much MUCH easier than it was years ago.

The real cause for low birth rates is not evil CEO's, lack of resources, global warming, etc. Those are poor excuses. People choose not to because it inconveniences them in the easiest time to be alive ever with so much other stuff to do. Having children is a massive sacrifice to someone's lifestyle, time, and finances. It's not to say anyone is right or wrong, but that personal priorities have shifted and having kids seems a bit more trivial now.

Exactly.

Offline MoneyMike

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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #125 on: September 10, 2018, 02:16:44 PM »

I recently turned 29, and I've never wanted kids myself, and still don't.
I've never really enjoyed being around other people, and I struggle with social skills greatly.
I mentioned this earlier in the thread as a joke but, I do agree with this a little bit: Having children is a selfish act too. Parents usually have a child because THEY want a child, we can't exactly ask an unborn baby if they want to be born, though.

But personally, these days, the state of the world is more in line with why I still don't want to have children.
It's basically becoming harder to live, with governments becoming more and more corrupt, big company CEOs becoming too greedy and always wanting more, when their family is already set up for at least 10 lifetimes. Global warming and stuff like that. I could probably go on, but I hope you get the idea.
I personally think bringing a child into the state of things now is a horrible thing to do.

And I think that is a lot of the stuff that people don't take into consideration. Conditions of the world that you'd be subjecting another life to.
If the world can get to a position where the conditions will be better, then I could see me changing my stance a bit.

Sorry, if I explained this poorly. I'm not all here today.

I think the idea that it's becoming harder and harder to live doesn't really hold up. (maybe depending on where you live I guess) My parents families didn't have 2 nickels to rub together when they were kids, and they did just fine. Go back to my grandparents childhood and things were largely the same. It doesn't require exorbitant amounts of money to be a decent parent. A lower middle class income will cut it as long as you're living in a place with a reasonable cost of living. (and living frugally yourself)

As far as the state of the world, I think you're way off base. Violent crime has gone way down all over North America, and the idea that CEO's taking too much money is causing some kind of problem for the rest of society is simply false. If a CEO is being paid more than he's worth the board can simply vote to reduce his pay.

Regarding having kids as being selfish, it is in some sense I guess. You do it because you want to after all. I think the proper way to handle that is to accept that this confers a responsibility to make sure your kids grow up loved and taken care of.

Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone they should or anything, just rambling. I like to ramble.

Some of the highest birthrates are in India and Indonesia. These are countries with far less to live on than Western countries and deal with more disease and crime. Life is much MUCH easier than it was years ago.

The real cause for low birth rates is not evil CEO's, lack of resources, global warming, etc. Those are poor excuses. People choose not to because it inconveniences them in the easiest time to be alive ever with so much other stuff to do. Having children is a massive sacrifice to someone's lifestyle, time, and finances. It's not to say anyone is right or wrong, but that personal priorities have shifted and having kids seems a bit more trivial now.

Might be a poor excuse for you and the other guy but, while I agree that there isn't a lack of resources; evil ceo's and stuff is a thing.
There was a thing in NZ about a year or 2 ago, some company's board asked the CEO to reduce costs by $600,000 per year. The guy fired people until their yearly wage combined equaled around $600,000 - and then they gave him that much as a raise per year for meeting that. - not a 1 time bonus either.

At one of my old jobs, we were constantly understaffed. The boss's boss there was consistently and constantly getting complaints from customers for the lack of staff members. The stores profits were higher than the 3 other stores (from the towns next to us), and were much more understaffed than theirs. That boss who was getting complaints all the time. He was refusing to let the store hire because he was getting large bonuses for the same reason, by "reducing costs". The few times he'd let the store hire, the people hired would leave within the first 2 - 3 weeks, because they would be overworked from the go.

For me, I consider it to be a real problem, and not something I'd want to subject another life to.
You're welcome to disagree all you want, this is one of a few things I'm really close minded on though. :P

I think there is probably more to most of those stories than you've read. Generally when you read reporting like that you're getting a one sided look at something more complicated. Not to say there aren't shit people who work as CEO's and take advantage of stuff as much as they can, or that there aren't places that over-work their employees. Employers like that won't be competitive in the marketplace for long though, turnover is too expensive in the long term. Anyways this is kind of off topic so I'll just leave it be.

Put it this way. If you had to be reborn and you could choose the exact date of birth, but had no control over ANYTHING else (random gender, random country of birth, random ethnicity, random family etc), when would you choose? I honestly think people would be crazy to choose any time other than the 2000's. There has never been a better time to be alive worldwide, and things are getting better incredibly fast in developing countries. No world wars, no disease outbreaks, increasing tolerance towards non-traditional lifestyles. Everything is getting better, not worse.

That's not to say people don't face challenges, but that will always be a part of the human experience. The only reason people aren't more positive is the media, which generates more clicks and money from scare mongering and alarmism.

Offline Cyanea

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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #126 on: September 10, 2018, 02:17:34 PM »
Quote from: Moneymike
That second quote isn't me.

Ah.. my apologies.  :-[

I recently turned 29, and I've never wanted kids myself, and still don't.I've never really enjoyed being around other people, and I struggle with social skills greatly.

I had a traumatic childhood and spent a lot of my adulthood in depression. Seems like a lot of my life has been a struggle, for one reason and another. Yes, life can be great but lets face it most of the time its toil, hard work, struggle..a process of loss. On some level ..why would I want to create another life to have to face all of that all over again? Its different if you're rich and can provide the best of everything for your kids I suppose.


Quote
I mentioned this earlier in the thread as a joke but, I do agree with this a little bit: Having children is a selfish act too. Parents usually have a child because THEY want a child.

This is true  ;D

Some people want a child as an extension of their own ego. Someone to live vicariously by. A lot of korean mothers give this impression.

Others just want to continue their bloodline. Others have kids almost without thinking simply because "its what you do". ie they lack imagination for what to do with their lives.

Quote
But personally, these days, the state of the world is more in line with why I still don't want to have children.
It's basically becoming harder to live, with governments becoming more and more corrupt, big company CEOs becoming too greedy and always wanting more, when their family is already set up for at least 10 lifetimes. Global warming and stuff like that. I could probably go on, but I hope you get the idea.
I personally think bringing a child into the state of things now is a horrible thing to do.

I agree, yes. In the west we are feeling the weight of history.
Catch my drift?

Offline kyndo

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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #127 on: September 10, 2018, 02:18:24 PM »
I know its inconvenient to have kids and they entail responsibility (hence the thread title) but without them it sounds like developed countries and all the cultures associated with them will disappear.
I'm not certain if you intended this connotation, but I just wanted to point out that while having kids requires responsibility is true, it doesn't mean that the corollary is true (that not having kids requires irresponsibility).

     Also, I don't believe that cultures with birthrates below maintenance will disappear. In this modern day and age, the logistics of immigration is such that developed countries have an essentially limitless population repository to draw from. Cultures will need to adjust and adapt, but most European cultures have been doing exactly that for a very long time -- there have been dozens of mass migrations that have swept over Europe over the course of recorded history. Each one left its mark, and our cultures are richer for it.  :undecided:

Offline Cyanea

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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #128 on: September 10, 2018, 02:30:45 PM »
Ha, ha, single people are being 'marginalized' are they?

the facts prove it.

Quote
..unmarried people are systematically discriminated against. They pay more for health and car insurance than married people do. They don’t get the same kind of tax breaks. Co-op boards, mortgage brokers, and landlords often pass them over. So do the employers with the power to promote them. “Singleism—stereotyping, stigmatizing, and discrimination against people who are single—is largely unrecognized and unchallenged.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/singled-out-are-unmarried-people-discriminated-against

Quote
the tax system which penalizes single people in multifarious ways. Families are eligible for numerous tax breaks and credits including the Family Tax Cut Credit, Spousal Transfers and sharing of Tax Free Savings Accounts. Not so single people.
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/robertwhitley/discrimination-against-single-people_b_14337312.html

I just wanted to point out that while having kids requires responsibility is true, it doesn't mean that the corollary is true (that not having kids requires irresponsibility).

Perceptions and reality.

Perception: "if they have kids they must be more responsible and trustworthy adults than someone who is single"

Reality: the poorest, least educated, least responsible sector of society that is breeding the fastest, while many of the most educated career people are not having kids at all.
Catch my drift?

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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #129 on: September 10, 2018, 02:53:49 PM »
Quote
and car insurance than married people do. They don’t get the same kind of tax breaks. Co-op boards, mortgage brokers, and landlords often pass them over. So do the employers with the power to promote them. “Singleism—stereotyping, stigmatizing, and discrimination against people who are single—is largely unrecognized and unchallenged.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/singled-out-are-unmarried-people-discriminated-against

Married people get tax breaks because governments want people to bring up kids in the best environment - the family unit. Insurance companies don't discriminate against anyone, they calculate which groups are statistically likely to cost them more and charge accordingly. Plenty of landlords don't accept families with young kids and where's the data for companies discriminating against single people?

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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #130 on: September 10, 2018, 02:57:51 PM »
I know its inconvenient to have kids and they entail responsibility (hence the thread title) but without them it sounds like developed countries and all the cultures associated with them will disappear.
I'm not certain if you intended this connotation, but I just wanted to point out that while having kids requires responsibility is true, it doesn't mean that the corollary is true (that not having kids requires irresponsibility).

     Also, I don't believe that cultures with birthrates below maintenance will disappear. In this modern day and age, the logistics of immigration is such that developed countries have an essentially limitless population repository to draw from. Cultures will need to adjust and adapt, but most European cultures have been doing exactly that for a very long time -- there have been dozens of mass migrations that have swept over Europe over the course of recorded history. Each one left its mark, and our cultures are richer for it.  :undecided:

From the Norman conquest until modern times, the UK's largest mass immigration was 50,000 French Huguenots in the 17th century. People from the next door country with a similar culture and values. Apart from the wider choice of cuisine, no one really knows whether allowing 2 million Muslims from the Indian sub continent into the UK will make our culture richer over the course of time.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 02:59:34 PM by eggieguffer »

Offline kyndo

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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #131 on: September 10, 2018, 04:31:11 PM »
From the Norman conquest until modern times, the UK's largest mass immigration was 50,000 French Huguenots in the 17th century. People from the next door country with a similar culture and values. Apart from the wider choice of cuisine, no one really knows whether allowing 2 million Muslims from the Indian sub continent into the UK will make our culture richer over the course of time.
    Other influential migrations into England would include: the Romans, the Pictii, the Norse, and the Anglo-Saxons. Each of these culturally disparate people substantially changed the culture, language, and ethnic composition of what is now England.

And Britain, being an island nation, has been comparatively isolated. Think of the Moorish influx into Iberia, the Hun invasions, the Roman expansion, the Goth rampages, etc, etc. Definitely some cultural mixing goin' on!


And yeah, those Muslims and Hindus are definitely improving British cuisine, if nothing else.  :laugh:


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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #132 on: September 10, 2018, 04:36:42 PM »
From the Norman conquest until modern times, the UK's largest mass immigration was 50,000 French Huguenots in the 17th century. People from the next door country with a similar culture and values. Apart from the wider choice of cuisine, no one really knows whether allowing 2 million Muslims from the Indian sub continent into the UK will make our culture richer over the course of time.
    Other influential migrations into England would include: the Romans, the Pictii, the Norse, and the Anglo-Saxons. Each of these culturally disparate people substantially changed the culture, language, and ethnic composition of what is now England.

And Britain, being an island nation, has been comparatively isolated. Think of the Moorish influx into Iberia, the Hun invasions, the Roman expansion, the Goth rampages, etc, etc. Definitely some cultural mixing goin' on!


And yeah, those Muslims and Hindus are definitely improving British cuisine, if nothing else.  :laugh:

Society always aims for homeostasis. Remember Middle-Easterners are being changed by England just as much as they are changing it, look at the generational gap between first and second or third generation immigrants.

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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #133 on: September 10, 2018, 04:49:23 PM »
Quote
  Other influential migrations into England would include: the Romans, the Pictii, the Norse, and the Anglo-Saxons. Each of these culturally disparate people substantially changed the culture, language, and ethnic composition of what is now England.
 

They were invasions not migrations. The idea that the UK is traditionally a nation of immigrants like the US is false. For centuries it has had its own unique culture.

Quote
Society always aims for homeostasis. Remember Middle-Easterners are being changed by England just as much as they are changing it, look at the generational gap between first and second or third generation immigrants

These generations (of Indians and Pakistanis, not Middle Easterners) are generally where the fundamentalists and terrorists come from. We all know about the 7 7 bombers who went to cricket matches and spoke in Yorkshire accents. 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 04:53:23 PM by eggieguffer »

Offline Cyanea

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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #134 on: September 10, 2018, 05:19:24 PM »
Married people get tax breaks because governments want people to bring up kids in the best environment - the family unit.

Even though 40% of marriages end in divorce (at least in canada) and studies show that divorced people and many married people are consistently less happy than people who have always been single?


Quote
Insurance companies don't discriminate against anyone, they calculate which groups are statistically likely to cost them more and charge accordingly.

Prove it. The evidence says otherwise.
.. insurance penalties for single people are just another in the long long list of discrimination against singles. Based on bigoted and unfounded perceptions.

Quote
Auto Insurers Charge Widows, Other Single Women More: Study
Losing a spouse is never easy, either emotionally or financially, and a new study finds that many major auto insurance companies are adding to the grief by raising rates for new widows by as much as 226 percent.

In general, auto insurers levy penalties, in the form of higher premiums, on those who aren’t married, according to new research by the Consumer Federation of America. The higher rates are not backed up by data showing increased risk
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/insurers-penalize-widows-other-single-women-higher-rates-study-n399151

Quote
U.S. Federal Code Title 5 Part III says: The President may prescribe rules which shall prohibit... discrimination because of marital status. Yet more than 1,000 laws provide overt legal or financial benefits to married couples. Marital privileging marginalizes the 50 percent of Americans who are single. The U.S. government is the main perpetrator, but private companies follow its lead. Thus marital privilege pervades nearly every facet of our lives. Insurance policies—ranging from health, to life, to home, to car—cost more, on average, for unmarried people compared to those who are married.
https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/01/the-high-price-of-being-single-in-america/267043/

Quote
Plenty of landlords don't accept families with young kids

Nonsense, studies prove once again..

Quote
Housing Discrimination Against People Who Are Single: 4 Studies
Married couples are favored over all sorts of singles
Posted Oct 19, 2010
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/living-single/201010/housing-discrimination-against-people-who-are-single-4-studies

Quote
and where's the data for companies discriminating against single people?

Come of it eggfart. Are you that behind the times?

Quote
In 1979, Martha Hill, a researcher at the University of Michigan, observed a strange fact about married men: they make a lot more money, at least compared to their unmarried peers. (According to Hill’s numbers, marriage led to a roughly 25 percent boost in pay.) What’s more, the effect remained even after Hill controlled for most of the relevant variables, including work experience and training.

In the decades since, this correlation has been repeatedly confirmed, with dozens of studies showing that married men earn between 10 and 50 percent more than their unmarried peers.
http://www.jonahlehrer.com/blog/2015/5/13/why-do-married-men-make-more-money


Quote
.. married men, ceteris paribus, earn more than unmarried men
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0049089X9190002K


So there's a fact: married men get paid on average 25% more than single men, even when they are doing the same work at the same level of competence and seniority. That is called blatant discrimination.

How significant is a 25% pay differential? Well..imagine that both men work forty years for an annual salary of $50,000. The married  man earns 25% more, or $63,000. Over 40 years the married guy has been given over half a million dollars more than the single guy. And the 25% figure is only a conservative figure. But even if they were paid the same, married men are usually able to add a spouse into their healthcare package at a discounted rate, meaning they still come out far ahead.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 05:21:40 PM by Cyanea »
Catch my drift?

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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #135 on: September 10, 2018, 07:15:36 PM »
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So there's a fact: married men get paid on average 25% more than single men, even when they are doing the same work at the same level of competence and seniority. That is called blatant discrimination.

Can you quote the section that says married men earn more than single men for doing exactly the same job at exactly the same level with the same qualifications and experience? No, I thought not. So it's basically the same as the gender pay gap. Lots of different variables determining what different groups are earning and no evidence of discrimination.

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Prove it. The evidence says otherwise.
.. insurance penalties for single people are just another in the long long list of discrimination against singles. Based on bigoted and unfounded perceptions.

I'll just repeat what I said before. Insurance companies calculate how likely people are to get sick, have an accident etc... based on all their characteristics and charge them accordingly. This is not discrimination.

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Plenty of landlords don't accept families with young kids

Nonsense, studies prove once again..

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Housing Discrimination Against People Who Are Single: 4 Studies
Married couples are favored over all sorts of singles
Posted Oct 19, 2010
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/living-single/201010/housing-discrimination-against-people-who-are-single-4-studies

I was specifically talking about discrimination against tenants with young kids, which is a real thing e.g.

http://realestate.boston.com/news/2017/06/21/families-with-young-children-face-rampant-discrimination-in-apartment-search/

Besides which a landlord can choose who he likes to occupy his personal property. There's no law against it.   

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Married people get tax breaks because governments want people to bring up kids in the best environment - the family unit.

Even though 40% of marriages end in divorce (at least in canada) and studies show that divorced people and many married people are consistently less happy than people who have always been single?

Studies have shown repeatedly that kids brought up by single parents overall do worse in every respect than those brought up by two parents, that's why the government incentivises marriage.



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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #136 on: September 11, 2018, 04:19:06 AM »
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Studies have shown repeatedly that kids brought up by single parents overall do worse in every respect than those brought up by two parents, that's why the government incentivises marriage.

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For children born to young mothers with little education and older mothers with a lot of education, growing up in a married household doesn’t make much of a difference in terms of the likelihood that they’ll graduate from high school and earn more than poverty-level wages by the time they’re 25, according to working paper distributed this week by the National Bureau of Economic Research, a Washington, D.C.-based research group. Children born to mothers in the middle of the education and age spectrum, on the other hand, benefit from growing up in married households.

It pretty much depends on the one parent, usually the mother. If she does OK money and education-wise, then the kid will too. On the other hand....

Offline Cyanea

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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #137 on: September 11, 2018, 08:30:22 AM »
Can you quote the section that says married men earn more than single men for doing exactly the same job at exactly the same level with the same qualifications and experience?


Duh, the study says ceteris paribus.
http://www.columbia.edu/~yc2444/Why%20Do%20Married%20Men%20Earn%20More%20than%20Unmarried%20Men.pdf

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In other words they controlled for factors like  age, education and other demographic effects, the "marriage wage premium" is 10 percent to 50 percent.
http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~hal/people/hal/NYTimes/2004-07-29.html

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In the NLSY, married men make 44% extra, even after controlling for education, experience, IQ, race, and number of children. 
https://www.econlib.org/archives/2012/02/what_is_the_mar.html

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Economists who study the male marriage premium usually conclude that much of it is causal.

In other words, the employer sees you are married, then takes a shine to you because he thinks you are a superior being. Whereas the single guy is immediately assumed to be wild, irresponsible, likely to leave etc. Whether he is or not.

Other studies have proven these perceptions. Married people, like taller people, are invariably assumed to be more intelligent, responsible, gifted, stable, whether they are or not.

Because this world runs on perceptions and bias, not on reality. In Korea it is on steroids but at least the west should know better.


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I'll just repeat what I said before.Insurance companies calculate how likely people are to get sick, have an accident etc... based on all their characteristics and charge them accordingly. This is not discrimination.

Do I have to bold it for you?

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In general, auto insurers levy penalties, in the form of higher premiums, on those who aren’t married, according to new research by the Consumer Federation of America. The higher rates are not backed up by data showing increased risk
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/insurers-penalize-widows-other-single-women-higher-rates-study-n399151




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I was specifically talking about discrimination against tenants with young kids, which is a real thing e.g.

http://realestate.boston.com/news/2017/06/21/families-with-young-children-face-rampant-discrimination-in-apartment-search/

That article refers to an unmarried mother but dresses it up as being against "families". In reality it is discrimination against singles once again, and single mothers get it worse than single men.

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the gender pay gap is higher between married men and women with children than any other demographic
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ruchikatulshyan/2015/11/05/women-who-advance-like-men-dont-get-paid-like-them/#6d2edcc4375c


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Studies have shown repeatedly that kids brought up by single parents overall do worse in every respect than those brought up by two parents,


Because there is huge discrimination against single mothers.

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The research found that in particular lone parents are disadvantaged when it came to housing.

About 60% of all homeless families are single parent families headed by lone mothers. As well as this, lone mothers experience high levels of discrimination when it comes to accessing housing.
http://www.thejournal.ie/discrimination-housing-4072499-Jun2018/

Of course when you deny single parents fair salaries and decent accomodation they are likely to do less well!

But in any case, there is some doubt as to whether single parents are that inferior. Once again, it may be just another perception.

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In a nationally representative sample of many different kinds of households - two-parent biological households, single-mother households, adoptive households, stepmother, and stepfather households - there were no differences at all. What mattered was NOT how many parents there were, or whether the parents were biologically related to the children. Instead, whether children had problems with their grades or with their siblings or friends depended on whether there was a lot of conflict within families, high levels of disagreements between parents, or endless arguments between parents and kids.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/living-single/200901/children-single-mothers-how-do-they-really-fare

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that's why the government incentivises marriage.

"Incentivises" = discriminates unfairly against unmarried people.


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Besides which a landlord can choose who he likes to occupy his personal property. There's no law against it.
 

Yes there is.

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The federal Fair Housing Act of 1968 and the federal Fair Housing Act Amendments Act of 1988 prohibit discrimination on the basis of the following criteria (called “protected categories”): race or color; religion; national origin; familial status or age—includes families with children under the age of 18 and pregnant women; disability or handicap, or sex.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/renters-rights-book/chapter5-2.html


So no, discrimination is not ok, despite your mindless wholehearted support for it.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 08:33:18 AM by Cyanea »
Catch my drift?

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #138 on: September 11, 2018, 08:48:01 AM »
I am sympathetic to eggieguffer's position, but Cyanea's sources are rather compelling.

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Re: Is remaining childless irresponsible? Elon Musk on Demographics
« Reply #139 on: September 11, 2018, 09:01:09 AM »
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  Other influential migrations into England would include: the Romans, the Pictii, the Norse, and the Anglo-Saxons. Each of these culturally disparate people substantially changed the culture, language, and ethnic composition of what is now England.
  They were invasions not migrations.

Yeah, they were invasions. Invasions where the invaders decided that rather than just the usual raping and pillaging, they would just, you know, settle down, invite their families over, build a few towns, cities, and kingdoms, and just, like stay there forever and ever amen. Wait, that would be population migrations wouldn't it?

For example, over 125,000 Romans settled in Britain. They built and named dozens of towns, including London. All the other aforementioned invasions also ended with substantial numbers of invaders permanently settling.
Here's a decent wikii that gives accounts of many of the main migrations into Great Britain over the last couple thousand years.

I thought you were British. Why don't you already know this?  :undecided:

The idea that the UK is traditionally a nation of immigrants like the US is false. For centuries it has had its own unique culture.
Oh, of course. But for the centuries and millenia before that? And... what about all those colonials returning to ol' Blighty with their masters etc? Didn't that kind of shake things up a bit?
And those wars with France? Didn't the French end up dumping their horrible language, aristocracy, and cuisine on y'all?

  No, I'm sorry. While Britain has definitely been a global exporter of its culture these last couple hundred years, saying it has remained culturally unchanged and "pure" is ridiculous. Cultures are dynamic and ever changing. Some more than others, true, but change is inevitable no matter how hard people fight against it.

Only the dead ever remain the same.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 09:03:15 AM by kyndo »