December 11, 2018, 09:59:19 PM


Author Topic: Korean government considered declaring martial law during Park Guen-hye protests  (Read 1554 times)

Online Mr.DeMartino

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I know that's what you said.  I gave you a list of instances where he is utterly inflexible, all of them things that are objectively UNtrue, and he is making bad decisions based on them.
Enacting a policy you don't agree with is not the same as being inflexible. You yourself have agreed that on many issues that Trump blows with the wind. So therefore you must conclude, that he certainly isn't an inflexible person.

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No one ever brings up Hitler except you.  Show me where I've called him Hitler.
You are not the entire left.

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All of those things are a continuation from the previous administration.
When does "because of the previous administration" stop and when does it start? Does it stop a year after? 2 years? 4? Do we go back to Franklin Pierce to give credit?

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Meanwhile our parks and public lands are being ransacked, air and water getting dirtier, the trade war is already costing jobs … etc
While I disagree with your hyperbolic tone, every administration will have sectors that do well and those that struggle. On balance, the direction of the country has been good.

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What would be helpful here is if you gave me a list (like I did) of counterfactual fixations that "lefty leaders" go on about.  But keep Hitler and similar BS out of it.
1. Trump mocked a disabled reporter.
2. Trump said Nazis were good people.
3. Trump's travel ban is a Muslim ban.
4. Russia.
5. Trump misspells things because he is stupid
6. Trump lies because he is a liar and evil
7. Trump never changes his mind
8. Trump just blows with the wind
9. It's bad that Trump has a short attention span.
10. Trump and the Japanese goldfish
11. Trump drinking his water
12. Trump said Mexicans were "rapists and murderers"
13. We're in a trade war (more like a trade skirmish)
14. By criticizing the press, Trump is endangering the 1st Amendment
15. No, the Trump administration didn't oppose breastfeeding
16. 17 Intel agencies agreed that Russia meddled

1. We're the party of science, but life begins at birth
2. If you ban guns, things will turn out like Europe (this has no more basis in reality than 'arm teachers' and other right-wing stupidity).
3. If you open the borders, things will be good (this has no more basis in reality than the doom and gloom of the right)
4. Liberals are more tolerant than Conservatives (recent studies have shown this is NOT true)
5. Liberals are less biased (Recent studies have shown they're just as biased and non-fact driven, just in different ways).
6. "Hands up, don't shoot!"
7. 1 in 5 women will be raped on campus
8. The gender pay gap

Online Mr C

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This is why it's so useless to debate with you.

Most of those things are opinions.  I specifically requested factual statements that were actually, y'know, wrong.  And when you get close to fact, you've elided or obfuscated and created another strawman. For example, he did not say "Mexicans are rapists and murderers" and no one has quoted him as saying that. 

He did however say, "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists."

Another example: Trump did not say Nazis are "good people".  The folks in Charlottesville he referred to as "good people" were NEO-Nazis and white supremacists.

Most of the others are strawmen, in the sense of being gross oversimplifications (which you accused me of, oh irony!) Who are these lefty leaders clamoring for open borders?!? 

I could go through most of the list and make corrections like this, but why bother? You can't read it properly 'cause of that giant board.

And he did in fact make fun of a reporter who is disabled.  He makes fun of people all the time, it's one of his best things.  Why would you even try to say it's not true? Never mind.  I withdraw the question.

Online Mr.DeMartino

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For example, he did not say "Mexicans are rapists and murderers" and no one has quoted him as saying that. 

Dude, can you at least not pretend that the left hasn't done this?

Fine-
"More guns means more gun crime"
"Trump colluded with Russia"
"

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The folks in Charlottesville he referred to as "good people" were NEO-Nazis and white supremacists.

This is what I'm talking about. That's your interpretation. You've settled on that one explanation. An alternative explanation is that Trump was referring to the people who were supporting the statues remain because they supported history. There were those people as well who were NOT affiliated with white supremacy or Nazism. Civil War buffs and free speech people.

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Who are these lefty leaders clamoring for open borders?!?
When you have zero enforcement on illegal immigration and no border security, you have de facto open borders.

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And he did in fact make fun of a reporter who is disabled.  He makes fun of people all the time, it's one of his best things.  Why would you even try to say it's not true? Never mind.  I withdraw the question.

He made fun of a reporter who was disabled, not because he was disabled.

Anyways, YOU are the one obfuscating from my point- That confirmation bias and failure to consider alternative explanations affects people of ALL political persuasions and to an equal degree and if you believe that you aren't affected by it, then you are making a critical mistake.

"I am left wing, therefore I am immune to this phenomenon" is an incredible fallacy.

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-the US postal service loses money by delivering Amazon's packages Yeah this is a crock of crap. Trump probably said it to rile up people against Bezos, whose Washington Post is a blatant propaganda outlet against him.
-the US runs a trade deficit with Canada http://time.com/5185673/donald-trump-us-cananda-trade-deficit-surplus/
-transgender people must not be in the US military because of their "tremendous" medical costs Whether those costs are justified and when transgender surgery takes place is the issue.
-millions of people voted illegally in 2016, all of them for Hillary Clinton Same kind of myth as the Russia stuff
-Muslims celebrated the events of Sept. 11, 2001 on the streets of NY Same kind of myth as 'Trump praised white supremacists'
-coal is better than renewables Renewables are better than coal is an opinion
-Iran was in serious violation of the nuke treaty Don't agree with Trump on this, but then again we have the left spouting off North Korea stuff. There's also the possibility that this argument is simply a pretext for some larger Middle East move.
-etc, etc

Your stuff is opinion, and it's also your opinion that this stuff is being presented AS FACT rather than for alternative reasons.

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Do you know why Trump lies, and I freely admit he plays fast and loose with the truth and lies by misstatement (rather than the media/Dems who often lie by omission)?

It's because he knows he will be "caught" in his lie and the media will howl and make it a major news story. But directionally, he'll be accurate. For example, his Hillary health claim. He spouts off conspiracy stuff about Hillary and her "lacking the stamina". The media howls and calls it a conspiracy theory. What happens? Hillary collapses and gets tossed in the back of a van like a slab of beef. Suddenly the media has egg on its face, Trump gets to go "Told ya so", and Hillary being Hillary, she comes out with a bunch of excuses and spin that no one believes. That single event is likely what won Trump the election- the visual image of Hillary being tossed in the back of a van and the whole sequence of events before and after.

Another example would be Trump's railing about immigration in Europe and everyone saying he's wrong about the facts. He absolutely was. But less than a week later, there's a major terrorist attack in Sweden. All the facts in the world don't matter at that point. And it's not just Trump- the media and the left failed to explain the facts in context and hedge. That while yes, it's not like Trump is making it out to be, that doesn't mean there's NO danger. Unfortunately, reflexive Trump derangement syndrome made them tack further away from the facts as well. Not as much as Trump, but enough that it damaged their position.

The Democrats and the left are the smart college kids who know a bunch of theory and have run a bunch of simulations and are convinced that because of their education, they'll prevail. Trump is the high school dropout poker player who just took all their money at the card table.

I'm reminded of an exchange between Col. Harry Summers and his North Vietnamese counterpart when they met after the war. Col. Summers turned to him and said "You know, you never once defeated us in battle." The Vietnamese colonel paused, then answered "Yes that's true. It is also irrelevant." That pretty much sums up much of my feelings regarding the anti-Trump left and many of their criticisms.

Online Savant

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Do you know why Trump lies..

Because he's a self-centered narcissist and his cult of followers can't think for themselves?

I win!

Online tylerthegloob

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The Democrats and the left are the smart college kids who know a bunch of theory and have run a bunch of simulations and are convinced that because of their education, they'll prevail. Trump is the high school dropout poker player who just took all their money at the card table.


You have a narrative view of this world that I find strangely romantic, 'Tino. Not that I agree with much of what you say. Nonetheless, I enjoy reading your posts.

This is probably a useless attempt to redirect the conversation, but...

I wonder how Americans would react to this kind of news (in the hypothetical situation that Trump gets PGH'd). I'm not saying that it's likely to happen, but it's not impossible that Robert Swan M. digs up the goodies.


Online Mr.DeMartino

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Do you know why Trump lies..

Because he's a self-centered narcissist and his cult of followers can't think for themselves?

I win!

He absolutely is.

And the left is just as much of a cult. And let's not get into Hillary...

Online Mr.DeMartino

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The Democrats and the left are the smart college kids who know a bunch of theory and have run a bunch of simulations and are convinced that because of their education, they'll prevail. Trump is the high school dropout poker player who just took all their money at the card table.


You have a narrative view of this world that I find strangely romantic, 'Tino. Not that I agree with much of what you say. Nonetheless, I enjoy reading your posts.

This is probably a useless attempt to redirect the conversation, but...

I wonder how Americans would react to this kind of news (in the hypothetical situation that Trump gets PGH'd). I'm not saying that it's likely to happen, but it's not impossible that Robert Swan M. digs up the goodies.

Thanks!

I think it depends on what Mueller turns up. It would have to be damning, specific, and detailed, with serious results.

It can't be "Trump fired Comey and we think that's obstruction." or "Trump used campaign funds instead of his own bank account to pay off Stormy Daniels" or "Trump Jr. met some Russians and the meeting went nowhere because they had nothing." 

It has to be something far more sinister. Otherwise it will fail in Congress.

Anyways, people are predicting doom and gloom and civil war and Nazis and such, but I think that's a bunch of hooey. Whether it's Trumpers in Confederate flag tshirts helping out stranded African-American motorists or people on the left mocking Alex Jones with their "Letters from the Second Civil War", it's clear that apocalyptic fears are overblown and we aren't about to start killing each other.

Offline AvecPommesFrites

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Perma bans for turning this into a Donut fest in my opinion.
Can I refill your eggnog for you? Get you something to eat? Drive you out to the middle of nowhere and leave you for dead?

Offline gogators!

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This is more than just "the military makes plans." Guys, Koreans are going nuts over this. Shouldn't we try to understand why? Let's look into it a bit:

1) The Defense Security Command (DSC) behind these plans is the same DSC that led domestic intelligence during the military government of the 70s to 80s. They were behind much of the domestic surveillance, intimidation, and violence during that difficult period. As of the early 90s, they are supposed to be involved in countersurveillance, not domestic politics. This is not just any branch of the military. Read more here: https://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/rok/dsc.htm

2) The military was planning to use special forces and tanks against civilians: http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/852311.html (check out the cool infographic of proposed troop locations). And these are the same guys who have already used violence against civilians. This is crazy by any standards but is especially sensitive for Koreans.

3) The fact that a potentially rogue wing of the military was even just planning such action is significant in and of itself. Sometimes just being involved in planning is a legal standard for culpability, such as in conspiracy cases--you don't actually need to pull the trigger or hand over the money to be part of a larger conspiracy.

I'm not saying the country is going down the toilet--it's just an interesting development that could be consequential. I think it's worthy of discussion and being aware, no?

I'd treat every report with a grain of salt. For starters, according to the information you have given us, DSC is also responsible for the moral and good order of the soldiers. In the event of significant civil disturbance, the military would no doubt be worried about the morale and unity of its units in maintaining order. They also have to guard against outside agitation and the possibility that North Korea would seek to exploit the situation.

The whole "Use tanks and special forces against civilians" is again one of those things that can totally get misconstrued and twisted. Do you really think the tanks would just start mowing down civilians? No, they'd be used as physical barriers and platforms from which to fire tear gas or water cannons or mobile command centers. Remember: The image you have in your mind of "special forces and tanks" is likely not the same image the military commanders have of their use.

It's not a rogue wing. They had a legitimate concern about both domestic security and the possibility of foreign agitation. Did they think this was likely? No. By all accounts it was pretty clear which way the court was headed. It was also clear that there was overwhelming popular support. Lastly, it remains to be seen whether mass civil disturbance would have been the result, especially considering that Park's term was up in less than a year. Lastly, the plans would only take effect if the disturbances reached a scale that the police couldn't handle.

People reading stories like this really need to take a deep breath before they jump to conclusions. To the unfamiliar, they sound fascist and apocalyptic. To anyone with an ounce of sense, they sound routine and mundane and they're being hyped up for political purposes.
Lastly, you first need to acquire this "ounce of sense" you routinely claim to possess for your apologies to have any merit whatsoever.

Offline Seoulscanner

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Update on the story: 80% of Koreans support dismantling or reforming the Defense Security Command behind the plans to potentially mobilize the military in downtown Seoul: https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2018/07/356_252145.html.

Also, the Defense Minister announced he will not receive reports from investigators overseeing the probe in order to ensure the integrity of the investigation.

Not sure how the thread turned into a Trump debate up there... But for anyone who cares about South Korean politics, this is a big deal.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 03:04:47 AM by Seoulscanner »

Offline gogators!

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The Democrats and the left are the smart college kids who know a bunch of theory and have run a bunch of simulations and are convinced that because of their education, they'll prevail. Trump is the high school dropout poker player who just took all their money at the card table.


You have a narrative view of this world that I find strangely romantic, 'Tino. Not that I agree with much of what you say. Nonetheless, I enjoy reading your posts.

This is probably a useless attempt to redirect the conversation, but...

I wonder how Americans would react to this kind of news (in the hypothetical situation that Trump gets PGH'd). I'm not saying that it's likely to happen, but it's not impossible that Robert Swan M. digs up the goodies.

Thanks!

I think it depends on what Mueller turns up. It would have to be damning, specific, and detailed, with serious results.

It can't be "Trump fired Comey and we think that's obstruction." or "Trump used campaign funds instead of his own bank account to pay off Stormy Daniels" or "Trump Jr. met some Russians and the meeting went nowhere because they had nothing." 

It has to be something far more sinister. Otherwise it will fail in Congress.

Anyways, people are predicting doom and gloom and civil war and Nazis and such, but I think that's a bunch of hooey. Whether it's Trumpers in Confederate flag tshirts helping out stranded African-American motorists or people on the left mocking Alex Jones with their "Letters from the Second Civil War", it's clear that apocalyptic fears are overblown and we aren't about to start killing each other.
Not for lack of trying:
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Four in 10 of the people identified as “known hate crime offenders” committed simple assault, while nearly a quarter committed aggravated assault.

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A woman accused of attacking a 91-year-old Mexican man with a concrete brick has been charged with attempted murder.

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There were more than 6,100 reported incidents of hate crimes in 2016, up from more than 5,800 the year before, the FBI said in a report based on data submitted by law enforcement agencies across the country. The number of hate crimes increased for a second consecutive year, and as was the case in 2015, the largest share of victims last year — nearly 6 in 10 — were targeted because of bias against the victim’s race or ethnicity.

Just the FACTS, ma'am.

Nice Giuliani strategy--moving the goalposts: "far more sinister." IMO breaking the law will suffice.

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Update on the story: 80% of Koreans support dismantling or reforming the Defense Security Command behind the plans to potentially mobilize the military in downtown Seoul: https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2018/07/356_252145.html.

Also, the Defense Minister announced he will not receive reports from investigators overseeing the probe in order to ensure the integrity of the investigation.

Not sure how the thread turned into a Trump debate up there... But for anyone who cares about South Korean politics, this is a big deal.

This is on the Korean media and politicians for not adequately explaining things and putting everything in context.

Did the government do this? No. Were they even close to? No. Should governments prepare for all contingencies? Yes.