March 27, 2019, 09:15:41 AM


Author Topic: Winning?!?  (Read 1563 times)

Offline gogators!

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Winning?!?
« on: June 23, 2018, 08:36:34 PM »
Quote
In the 2016 presidential election, George Skarich, the vice president of sales for the Missouri-based Mid Continent Nail Corporation, voted for Mr. Trump and hoped that he would use his business acumen to supercharge the economy.

The economy is booming, but Mr. Skarich said he was not reaping the benefits. Instead, as a result of Mr. Trump’s trade policies, Mr. Skarich said his nail company may soon be out of business.

Mid Continent, the largest American producer of nails, imports steel from Mexico to make its nails. That steel is now subject to the 25 percent tariffs that Mr. Trump imposed on dozens of countries, forcing Mid Continent to raise its prices by nearly 20 percent.

Orders have plummeted by 50 percent this month as the company tries to compete with cheaper foreign-made nails. Those foreign manufacturers are not facing higher steel costs, giving them an advantage over Mid Continent.

The company, which employs about 500 workers, has already cut 60 jobs. It could potentially cut 200 more in the coming weeks.

While Mr. Trump might propose that Mid Continent simply buy American-made steel, it might not be so simple: Mr. Skarich notes that the cost of American-made metal is much higher than what the company had been importing from Mexico, meaning it would still have to raise prices for its nails if it used domestic steel.

Mr. Skarich, a Republican, has lobbied Senator Claire McCaskill, a Democrat from Missouri, for help.

The irony is strong in this one.

trump is nailing the repugnican's coffin.

Online williamwhite

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Re: Winning?!?
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2018, 09:02:40 PM »
I am a libertarian, so my gut inclination is to try to reduce the control government has over our lives, which may seem to include supporting free trade between nations.

But you really can't ignore the horrible effects free trade has on more-developed nations who have a higher standard of living.  It's completely inevitable that a manufacturing business who's genuine goal is to maximize profits will use free trade to do just that.  Put simply, pack up shop and move your manufacturing operation to a country where you can pay workers a small fraction of what you'd have to pay them in a developed nation.  Then simply ship the product back into the developed nation to sell.  With free trade, there's no fees, tariffs, or financial ramifications for doing this, other than shipping costs.  That is just pure capitalism.

I'm not blaming businesses for doing that.  That's business.  And I'm not blaming less-developed countries for using the free trade system to their advantage.  But if you are looking at it from the point of view of the developed nation, there is no doubt that it is a bad system for them.  Their manufacturing moves out, they lose jobs, the lose the corporate tax revenue, they gain nothing.

So...  My point is, free trade is bad for countries like the US.  Fixing the problem by trying to come up with new trade agreements that are more balanced and have mutual benefits for the countries involved will create problems.  Putting tariffs on Chinese steel for example, is going to get messy.  There will be temporary suffering until new agreements can be reached.  But the alternative is to just continue to run a huge trade deficit and to watch companies move overseas.

I think sometimes everyone gets wrapped on in the Trumpiness of it all.  Not everything Trump is doing is bad.  Some people - and I'm suggesting the OP, just generally speaking - immediately dismiss anything done by the Trump administration as bad just because he's doing it.  Truth be told, historically it has been Republicans defending and supporting free trade and democrats (at least the far left ones like Bernie) decrying the evils of free trade.  It would be nice to have honest dialogue and discussion rather than just putting a tag line like "Winning?!?" to trigger everyone's Trump gag-reflex.

Offline gogators!

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Re: Winning?!?
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2018, 10:43:25 PM »
I am a libertarian, so my gut inclination is to try to reduce the control government has over our lives, which may seem to include supporting free trade between nations.

But you really can't ignore the horrible effects free trade has on more-developed nations who have a higher standard of living.  It's completely inevitable that a manufacturing business who's genuine goal is to maximize profits will use free trade to do just that.  Put simply, pack up shop and move your manufacturing operation to a country where you can pay workers a small fraction of what you'd have to pay them in a developed nation.  Then simply ship the product back into the developed nation to sell.  With free trade, there's no fees, tariffs, or financial ramifications for doing this, other than shipping costs.  That is just pure capitalism.

I'm not blaming businesses for doing that.  That's business.  And I'm not blaming less-developed countries for using the free trade system to their advantage.  But if you are looking at it from the point of view of the developed nation, there is no doubt that it is a bad system for them.  Their manufacturing moves out, they lose jobs, the lose the corporate tax revenue, they gain nothing.

So...  My point is, free trade is bad for countries like the US.  Fixing the problem by trying to come up with new trade agreements that are more balanced and have mutual benefits for the countries involved will create problems.  Putting tariffs on Chinese steel for example, is going to get messy.  There will be temporary suffering until new agreements can be reached.  But the alternative is to just continue to run a huge trade deficit and to watch companies move overseas.

I think sometimes everyone gets wrapped on in the Trumpiness of it all.  Not everything Trump is doing is bad.  Some people - and I'm suggesting the OP, just generally speaking - immediately dismiss anything done by the Trump administration as bad just because he's doing it.  Truth be told, historically it has been Republicans defending and supporting free trade and democrats (at least the far left ones like Bernie) decrying the evils of free trade.  It would be nice to have honest dialogue and discussion rather than just putting a tag line like "Winning?!?" to trigger everyone's Trump gag-reflex.
What's dishonest about my post?

You want discussion? Explain why trade deficits are bad. BTW, I would put your use of the adjective "huge" in the dishonest category. And then there's the hyperbole of "decrying the evils." The opposition to the TPP was based on solid arguments regarding workers'  and environmental concerns, among others.

So if you want to have "honest dialogue and discussion," it's probably best to start with some FACTS.

Online williamwhite

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Re: Winning?!?
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2018, 11:48:44 PM »
I have to apologize, my post did have one typo.  In that last paragraph it was supposed to read, "and I'm not suggesting to OP, just generally speaking."  Sorry about that.

I will say my response was all fact-based.  I don't think there is anything controversial in anything I wrote, is there?  On the other hand you simply posted an article and then wrote:

"The irony is strong in this one.  trump is nailing the repugnican's coffin."


Online williamwhite

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Re: Winning?!?
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2018, 12:03:00 AM »
And here are two good articles on the effects of trade deficits in the US.  Both are by left-of-center publications, the Atlantic and the Washington Post.

The Atlantic: Why Trade Deficits Matter
Dean Baker is the co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research.
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/12/trump-trade-deficit/509912/

Washinton Post: Getting Straight About the cost of Trade
Jared Bernstein, a former chief economist to Vice President Joe Biden, is a senior fellow at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/05/12/getting-straight-about-the-costs-of-trade/?utm_term=.7d80a36a1342

Offline gogators!

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Re: Winning?!?
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2018, 04:37:50 AM »
And here are two good articles on the effects of trade deficits in the US.  Both are by left-of-center publications, the Atlantic and the Washington Post.

The Atlantic: Why Trade Deficits Matter
Dean Baker is the co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research.
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/12/trump-trade-deficit/509912/

Washinton Post: Getting Straight About the cost of Trade
Jared Bernstein, a former chief economist to Vice President Joe Biden, is a senior fellow at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/05/12/getting-straight-about-the-costs-of-trade/?utm_term=.7d80a36a1342
I commented on why I posted the excerpt. You've merely posted links, one of which is behind a paywall.

From the Atlantic:

Quote
To start, it’s not inherently a problem for a country to have a trade deficit.

Quote
a demagogue like Trump to offer an unrealistic nostalgia for a 1950s economy that existed before the modern, global era. In fact, international trade today yields many benefits for consumers and workers, both in the U.S. and abroad. On American shores, people have access to lower-cost and often better goods as a result of international trade.

The goal of trade policy should thus be to push back on U.S. trade deficits without distorting current trade flows. Large tariffs like the ones Trump has proposed won’t work, nor will preventing offshoring one company at a time, as he did with some of the jobs that the air-conditioning company Carrier was going to shift to Mexico. There are better ways to improve the U.S.’s trade balance—most importantly, the government could take steps to prevent America’s trading partners from manipulating their currencies to make their exports to the U.S. cheaper and the U.S.’s exports to them more expensive.

Note the article addresses only manufacturing jobs. It doesn't address the tax policies that made it more profitable for corporations of offshore jobs not the current administration's failure to support the new industries that are and will replace the old manufacturing jobs.

It examines only one side of the coin and that one less than completely.

As for your post straying from the facts, you can start with "Free trade is bad for countries like the US." and go from there.

Online williamwhite

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Re: Winning?!?
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2018, 08:46:34 AM »
Please explain your belief, then, why free trade agreements are (or have been) good for the US.  I am open to consider your argument if you have one.

Offline leaponover

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Re: Winning?!?
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2018, 06:58:35 PM »
Please explain your belief, then, why free trade agreements are (or have been) good for the US.  I am open to consider your argument if you have one.

Your just going to get treated with more empty puns.  This guy is a puppet with no real ideas of his own.  I respect you for trying to find some from him though.

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Re: Winning?!?
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2018, 07:41:28 PM »
Please explain your belief, then, why free trade agreements are (or have been) good for the US.  I am open to consider your argument if you have one.
Lower prices for consumers is an obvious benefit.

At least half of US are inputs for US-based producers, so more economic growth due to lower production costs.

Free trade pushes companies to innovate and become more efficient.

NAFTA has provided many benefits for the US such as increasing growth by .5 percent a year.

"If you have one.." pretty snarky for some  "open to dialogue."

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Re: Winning?!?
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2018, 07:42:40 PM »
Please explain your belief, then, why free trade agreements are (or have been) good for the US.  I am open to consider your argument if you have one.

Your just going to get treated with more empty puns.  This guy is a puppet with no real ideas of his own. I respect you for trying to find some from him though.
Why is the risible right so intent on projecting their shortcomings onto others?

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Re: Winning?!?
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2018, 10:35:29 PM »
Vroom, vroom!

Quote
Harley-Davidson, the American motorcycle manufacturer, said on Monday that it was shifting some of the production of its bikes outside the United States to avoid European Union tariffs imposed as part of a widening trade dispute.

The announcement, made in a public filing, is an early sign of the financial cost to companies on both sides of the Atlantic as the United States and Europe impose tariffs and counter-tariffs on each other.

Get your motor runnin'
Head out on the highway
Lookin' for low tariffs
And the Dems who'll save the day.

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Re: Winning?!?
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2018, 11:09:07 PM »
Cheese it, the protectionists!

Quote
That equation changes dramatically when tariffs are factored in. Sartori, which sells its cheeses to retail stores and fast casual restaurant chains in Mexico, now faces a 15 percent tariff on its exports, which will rise to 25 percent on July 5, in retaliation for Mr. Trump’s levies on global metal. The price increase is enough that the company’s customers, including restaurant chains, are looking at signing contracts with Sartori’s European competitors.

Quote
That has given Sartori’s international rivals an advantage, especially cheesemakers in the European Union, who are carving out protections for specific cheeses in their trade agreements.

Just like Champagne can technically only come from France, the European Union has striven to enshrine so-called “geographic indications” for its cheeses. Under these rules, a cheese must be made in Greece to be labeled “feta.” Parmesan must be made near Parma, Italy, and asiago must be crafted near its eponymous Italian village. As the Europeans sign agreements with countries like South Korea, Vietnam and Canada, they are locking American cheese producers out of using these names.

Mr. Schwager says these agreements create confusion for customers and tremendous expense for his company, which must market its cheeses under different names. In Mexico, because of ongoing litigation, it must now sell its asiago as “Sartiago,” a change Mr. Schwager says has led to a roughly 30 percent drop in revenue from Mexico in the last 90 days.

Quote
I’ll give the E.U. a lot of credit,” Mr. Schwager says. “They’re trying to win the trade war long term.” Meanwhile, he adds, “we’re having to play with one arm tied behind our back.”

Where are the deals?

Offline leaponover

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Re: Winning?!?
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2018, 03:19:31 PM »
Please explain your belief, then, why free trade agreements are (or have been) good for the US.  I am open to consider your argument if you have one.

Your just going to get treated with more empty puns.  This guy is a puppet with no real ideas of his own. I respect you for trying to find some from him though.
Why is the risible right so intent on projecting their shortcomings onto others?

Guess that would be true if I was regurgitating leftist articles and summarizing them with bad puns.  But since I'm not the one doing that I fail to see who you are referring too.  Keep up the good fight though Billie Jean.

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Re: Winning?!?
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2018, 07:45:34 PM »
Please explain your belief, then, why free trade agreements are (or have been) good for the US.  I am open to consider your argument if you have one.

Your just going to get treated with more empty puns.  This guy is a puppet with no real ideas of his own. I respect you for trying to find some from him though.
Why is the risible right so intent on projecting their shortcomings onto others?

Guess that would be true if I was regurgitating leftist articles and summarizing them with bad puns.  But since I'm not the one doing that I fail to see who you are referring too.  Keep up the good fight though Billie Jean.
Another reactionary who doesn't like the FACTS but has nothing to prove them wrong.

"I don't see." That's pretty obvious.
 

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Re: Winning?!?
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2018, 11:23:25 AM »
GM is now talking potential lost sales leading to job cuts and more due to the proposed tariffs.

That ain't what I call winning.

And as far as fair trade, how about all the tax breaks and government subsidies Wisconsin is giving to foxconn? It will take until 2042, if foxconn does what is says, which is a big if--just ask Brazil--for Wisconsin to start seeing any tax revenue from foxy.

Online williamwhite

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Re: Winning?!?
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2018, 08:35:25 PM »
GM is now talking potential lost sales leading to job cuts and more due to the proposed tariffs.

That ain't what I call winning.

And as far as fair trade, how about all the tax breaks and government subsidies Wisconsin is giving to foxconn? It will take until 2042, if foxconn does what is says, which is a big if--just ask Brazil--for Wisconsin to start seeing any tax revenue from foxy.

I'll use your opening line, "The irony is strong in this one."  This is a classic example of a political hack (you) completely shifting positions just because the current president (who is of the opposing political party) supports something.  Never mind that both Hilary Clinton and Bernie Sanders BOTH strongly supported the US getting out of the TPP during the last election.  Oh wait, you say!  Hillary actually supported the TPP a few years before she starting opposing it.  Yes, yes indeed.  This is the "moral backbone" of Hillary Clinton.  Basing her policies on public opinion polls.  At least Bernie was consistent.  There is a 100% chance that if Hillary or Bernie was in office doing the exact same thing Trump is doing - which they both promised they would do - that you'd be saying "Hey, you gotta break a few eggs" and touting the bravery of the Democratic party.  Your constant political hackery is tiresome.  It's all you do on this forum, which is probably why most people simply ignore you.  I'm new, so I'll take up the torch.

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Re: Winning?!?
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2018, 09:23:04 PM »
GM is now talking potential lost sales leading to job cuts and more due to the proposed tariffs.

That ain't what I call winning.

And as far as fair trade, how about all the tax breaks and government subsidies Wisconsin is giving to foxconn? It will take until 2042, if foxconn does what is says, which is a big if--just ask Brazil--for Wisconsin to start seeing any tax revenue from foxy.

I'll use your opening line, "The irony is strong in this one."  This is a classic example of a political hack (you) completely shifting positions just because the current president (who is of the opposing political party) supports something.  Never mind that both Hilary Clinton and Bernie Sanders BOTH strongly supported the US getting out of the TPP during the last election.  Oh wait, you say!  Hillary actually supported the TPP a few years before she starting opposing it.  Yes, yes indeed.  This is the "moral backbone" of Hillary Clinton.  Basing her policies on public opinion polls.  At least Bernie was consistent.  There is a 100% chance that if Hillary or Bernie was in office doing the exact same thing Trump is doing - which they both promised they would do - that you'd be saying "Hey, you gotta break a few eggs" and touting the bravery of the Democratic party.  Your constant political hackery is tiresome.  It's all you do on this forum, which is probably why most people simply ignore you.  I'm new, so I'll take up the torch.
Sounds like the soju talking.

Get back to me when you sober up, willie.

BTW, progressive opposition to the TPP was not about free trade; it was about shifting power from government to corporations at the expense of employees and the environment.

As for trump's opposition, that's quite simple--the pharmaceutical companies.

Too much drinking and not enough studying, willie.

Online williamwhite

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Re: Winning?!?
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2018, 09:33:18 PM »
GM is now talking potential lost sales leading to job cuts and more due to the proposed tariffs.

That ain't what I call winning.

And as far as fair trade, how about all the tax breaks and government subsidies Wisconsin is giving to foxconn? It will take until 2042, if foxconn does what is says, which is a big if--just ask Brazil--for Wisconsin to start seeing any tax revenue from foxy.

I'll use your opening line, "The irony is strong in this one."  This is a classic example of a political hack (you) completely shifting positions just because the current president (who is of the opposing political party) supports something.  Never mind that both Hilary Clinton and Bernie Sanders BOTH strongly supported the US getting out of the TPP during the last election.  Oh wait, you say!  Hillary actually supported the TPP a few years before she starting opposing it.  Yes, yes indeed.  This is the "moral backbone" of Hillary Clinton.  Basing her policies on public opinion polls.  At least Bernie was consistent.  There is a 100% chance that if Hillary or Bernie was in office doing the exact same thing Trump is doing - which they both promised they would do - that you'd be saying "Hey, you gotta break a few eggs" and touting the bravery of the Democratic party.  Your constant political hackery is tiresome.  It's all you do on this forum, which is probably why most people simply ignore you.  I'm new, so I'll take up the torch.
Sounds like the soju talking.

Get back to me when you sober up, willie.

BTW, progressive opposition to the TPP was not about free trade; it was about shifting power from government to corporations at the expense of employees and the environment.

As for trump's opposition, that's quite simple--the pharmaceutical companies.

Too much drinking and not enough studying, willie.

As you have done with all my replies, you totally ignored all the points I raised and did not address them at all.  I guess you acknowledge the truth of everything I said, as - like usual - I use facts to back up my opinions rather than just spewing talking points.  And congrats on the ad hominem attack.  Of course I'm drunk on Soju.  Or it's 8:00am in the US and I'm sipping a cup of coffee.

Online williamwhite

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Re: Winning?!?
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2018, 09:53:57 PM »
Maybe you'll accept my arguments if they come out of "your" side's mouth:

https://youtu.be/FuDhnwTB7ck

https://youtu.be/EKmypHus7S0

https://youtu.be/Q124hZLKpeQ

Offline gogators!

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Re: Winning?!?
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2018, 10:02:07 PM »
Maybe you'll accept my arguments if they come out of "your" side's mouth:

https://youtu.be/FuDhnwTB7ck

https://youtu.be/EKmypHus7S0

https://youtu.be/Q124hZLKpeQ
First you need to make an argument. Get back to me when you can handle that.

I leave the videos for the illiterate and the conspiracy nuts.