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Author Topic: Moon Jae-in and many South Koreans are endorsing NK human rights violations  (Read 1451 times)

Online MayorHaggar

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A few months ago I predicted that South Korea would come to endorse and excuse North Korea's human rights violations. And it's happening. Basically South Korea is shutting down any kind of protests against North Korea, South Koreans in general are attacking anyone who opposes Moon Jae-in, and North Korea is using propaganda to prop up Moon and attack anyone who opposes him.

Now I might not particularly care if North Korea wasn't literally the biggest current human rights violator in the world. Much of the population is left to die in gulags, entire multigenerational families are sent to die in gulags if one member isn't sufficiently loyal to the Kim dynasty, rapes in and out of the gulags are common, as are forced abortions. Don't be a schmoe, go look it up. And no, before the usual suspects want to try and change the subject with lazy whataboutism, bad things that North Korea does are not 100% equivalent to "teh ebil West" not being 100% perfect 100% of the time. And by the way, Trump, Russia, and China are all just about as bad as South Korea at endorsing, aiding and abetting North Korea's human rights violations.

Now I get that reunification is a nice idea, and a sentimental fantasy for all Koreans. But is attaining it worth doing NOTHING about one of the worst human rights violators in history? You can't say "let's try and get reunification done but maybe at least criticize North Korea just once for gulags?" They can't even do that. At what point is it going too far to attain reunification? Turns out that South Koreans will do literally anything to try and attain their goal of being "Sentimental Koreans."

Anyway, here's the news articles I'm talking about:

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2018/05/103_248493.html

Quote
South Korean police on Saturday prevented activists from launching anti-Pyongyang leaflets to North Korea, citing an agreement reached at a historic inter-Korean summit last month.

North Korean leader Kim Jong Un and South Korean President Moon Jae-in agreed to restore peace and reconciliation and cease all hostile acts when they met at the border truce village of Panmunjom on April 27.

"Hostile acts" include broadcasting through loudspeakers installed along their tense border and distributing propaganda leaflets to each other's side.

Accordingly, the two Koreas removed their propaganda loudspeakers this week.

Some 300 police were deployed at a public park in Paju City near the border where a group of some 20 activists including defectors from North Korea gathered to launch leaflets by gas-filled balloons.

Police kept the activists apart from a rival group of some 40 people who accused them of seeking to ignite confrontation with the North.

"Stop provoking a war," they chanted.

Police surrounded a small truck carrying some 5,000 leaflets, plastic balloons and gas canisters, preventing the activists from unloading them.

Park Sang-hak, a leading activist and former North Korean defector, said South Koreans were "intoxicated by Kim Jong Un's peace offensive" even though the North has not changed at all.

He vowed to continue efforts to send leaflets over the border to "let North Koreans know the truth" and "bring an end to the North's Kim Jong Un regime."

http://koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2018/05/113_248523.html

Quote
Police said Sunday they are seeking an arrest warrant for a man who beat the floor leader of the main opposition Liberty Korea Party, an incident that aggravated an ongoing partisan standoff.

The 31-year-old man, identified only by his surname Kim, hit the chin of Rep. Kim Sung-tae with his fist on Saturday as the lawmaker was walking up the stairs toward the bathroom in the National Assembly's main building.

The lawmaker has been on a hunger strike since Thursday, calling for an independent counsel investigation into an online opinion rigging scandal involving a blogger with alleged ties to ruling party lawmaker Kim Kyung-soo.

Police said they will request a court warrant to arrest him as early as Sunday afternoon.

After the assault, the suspect yelled to reporters to express his hatred toward the conservative opposition party and call for the parliament to cooperate in promoting inter-Korean reconciliation.

"Let's achieve the reunification of the Korean Peninsula. Is it that difficult for the parliament to ratify the declaration?'" he was quoted as saying by LKP spokesman Chang Je-won.

North Korean propaganda being deployed to big up Moon and attack his political opponents:

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2018/05/356_248355.html

Quote
North Korean newspaper Rodong Sinmun has called the leader of South Korea's main opposition party Hong Joon-pyo "a broken piece of malfunctioning flesh."

Netizens discovered the comment in a March 31 opinion piece by Ri Sung-ho. The article criticized the Liberty Korea Party chairman's negative campaign against South Korean President Moon Jae-in for prosecuting former presidents Lee Myung-bak and Park Geun-hye.

Ri's report carried a headline saying the South Korean lawmaker "must be buried immediately."

"The reason behind his rambunctious parade of controversial comments is because he was on the same side as the imposters Park Geun-hye and Lee Myung-bak," Ri said, referring to the former South Korean presidents. Park is in prison for offences committed while in office. Lee's trial on corruption charges is expected to start soon.

"It is impossible for him to hide his natural-born low-ethical code and corrupt mind."

If you have the KCNA rushing to your support it's probably a good idea to stop and think why they are doing so. But nope it's all good for Mister Moonie!

Online Mr.DeMartino

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China didn't chamge overnoght after Nixon went there, but the country now could never do what Mao did.  It will be the same with North Korea. Just like Russia, the Saudis, Egypt, Chile, Colombia, Mexico, Cuba, Indonesia, Vietnam, etc.  They will all make progress and have troubles along the way. It's a natural part of liberalization when done gradually.

Only an idiot would think this can change overnight and end up in stability and that it SHOULD happen that way.

Online CO2

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China didn't chamge overnoght after Nixon went there, but the country now could never do what Mao did.  It will be the same with North Korea. Just like Russia, the Saudis, Egypt, Chile, Colombia, Mexico, Cuba, Indonesia, Vietnam, etc.  They will all make progress and have troubles along the way. It's a natural part of liberalization when done gradually.

Only an idiot would think this can change overnight and end up in stability and that it SHOULD happen that way.

This has nothing to do with NOT being allowed to freely criticise them.
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Offline Epistemology

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ethno-nationalists acting like fascists? who'da thunk it?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 07:57:35 AM by Epistemology »
Away an bile yer heid ya numpty,ye dinnae ken whit yer talkin aboot.

Offline Epistemology

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With that said. If I was a North Korean defector in SK right now, I'd be getting my paperwork in order for an extended stay in Europe or North America. A very extended stay there.
Away an bile yer heid ya numpty,ye dinnae ken whit yer talkin aboot.

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With that said. If I was a North Korean defector in SK right now, I'd be getting my paperwork in order for an extended stay in Europe or North America. A very extended stay there.

Wonder how this will play into the current situation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/11/world/asia/north-korea-waitresses-defections.html

'Tale of North Korean Waitresses Who Fled to South Takes Dark Turn'

Quote
The manager and three of the women claim that the waitresses did not even know they were going to South Korea when the manager took them out of China at the behest of the South’s National Intelligence Service.

“It was luring and kidnapping, and I know because I took the lead,” said the manager.

Quote
“I want to go home, because living like this is not the life I wanted,” said one of the three women, who were all interviewed by JTBC. “I miss my parents.”

Quote
The case of the 12 women, all in their 20s or 30s, presents a thorny problem for President Moon Jae-in of South Korea, who held a summit meeting with North Korea’s leader, Kim Jong-un, last month to discuss improving ties. Mr. Kim’s government has long demanded the women’s repatriation. But the South has always denied abducting North Koreans, saying that about 30,000 North Koreans who have arrived in the South since the 1990s were defectors.

Offline AvecPommesFrites

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Think of the whole pie man...

Once it's all luvy dovey and Uncle Kim has been purged we can release all those imprisoned folk and make a nice chunk of change on extra ESL classes.

It ain't worth nit picking a couple human rights violations to disturb the peace. Just let it go. I'd rather not get nuked as I've just bought a waygook subscription.
Can I refill your eggnog for you? Get you something to eat? Drive you out to the middle of nowhere and leave you for dead?

Online Mr.DeMartino

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China didn't chamge overnoght after Nixon went there, but the country now could never do what Mao did.  It will be the same with North Korea. Just like Russia, the Saudis, Egypt, Chile, Colombia, Mexico, Cuba, Indonesia, Vietnam, etc.  They will all make progress and have troubles along the way. It's a natural part of liberalization when done gradually.

Only an idiot would think this can change overnight and end up in stability and that it SHOULD happen that way.

This has nothing to do with NOT being allowed to freely criticise them.

What do we have? Not launching leaflets (pretty big issue and one that the government does have authority over- launching stuff into the airspace of another country is NOT a free speech right). We have a local nutjob who decided to punch some politician and run. And we have a bombastic article from the North Korean media.

Give me a break. There' s no clampdown on criticism. You have a bunch of "weird news" stories, the kind you'd find in any country on the verge of some big event like this.

Online MayorHaggar

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Oh look, everyone's favorite white Korean nationalist is whataboutistically sticking up for death camps, mass rapes, and forced abortions. Who could possibly have predicted that?

Online Aristocrat

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China didn't chamge overnoght after Nixon went there, but the country now could never do what Mao did.  It will be the same with North Korea. Just like Russia, the Saudis, Egypt, Chile, Colombia, Mexico, Cuba, Indonesia, Vietnam, etc.  They will all make progress and have troubles along the way. It's a natural part of liberalization when done gradually.

Only an idiot would think this can change overnight and end up in stability and that it SHOULD happen that way.

Almost 50yrs later and the majority of changes in China are superficial, the CCP has simply learned that if you're going to brutally oppress those who don't swear allegiance, it's better to be devious and cloak-and-dagger this time around. 

- You've still got a cult in power
- Said cult holds onto power ruthlessly
- People are quite literally not permitted to say words like 'Cultural Revolution', 'Tibet' or '1989 protests'. Anything you
  say online is monitored by the government.
- Anti-pollution laws are only enforced against the poor (people lighting fires in drums to stay warm) and the trillionaire
  coal barons in the north are given a free pass (only superficial changes).
- Orwellian nonsense

China aside, we're going to see the real reason for the Moon and Kim bromance. It's got nothing to do with reunification or anything inspiring. It's Kim, Trump and Moon sitting down and figuring out that this entire farce will benefit them, personally.

Kim - No longer needs to fear a civil war or coup. Make no mistake, his grip on power was in danger as he's running out
         of money to bribe his officials, has no food to feed his people and thanks to social media and North Koreans
         streaming back and forth from China, the propaganda is no longer as effective. By playing the reunification farce,
         sanctions will be lifted, Moon has his back and he'll be able to stay in power till the day he dies.

Moon - His approval rating is now at an all time high and his 2nd term is pretty much guaranteed. It's interesting to
           note that the government has done a complete 180. Not 6 months ago, it was illegal to even visit a DPRK
           website or even publicly condone the regime. Now, it's becoming illegal to criticize it.

Trump - Can now technically claim responsibility for a massive diplomatic "victory". His brash and crass approach has
            neutralized a false flag fear of nuclear attack by North Korea. He can boast that he succeeded were Obama
            failed.

All 3 win, everyone else is fooled.

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Oh look, everyone's favorite white Korean nationalist is whataboutistically sticking up for death camps, mass rapes, and forced abortions. Who could possibly have predicted that?

Are you against Trump pulling out of the Iran deal? Then by YOUR logic, you're sticking up for terrorism, oppression of women, and theocracy.

But I don't think you are. I think you're weighing the costs and benefits regarding a regime we may not enjoy, but that we have to deal with and that we can't always have overnight instant progress.

Almost 50yrs later and the majority of changes in China are superficial, the CCP has simply learned that if you're going to brutally oppress those who don't swear allegiance, it's better to be devious and cloak-and-dagger this time around. 

- You've still got a cult in power
- Said cult holds onto power ruthlessly
- People are quite literally not permitted to say words like 'Cultural Revolution', 'Tibet' or '1989 protests'. Anything you
  say online is monitored by the government.
- Anti-pollution laws are only enforced against the poor (people lighting fires in drums to stay warm) and the trillionaire
  coal barons in the north are given a free pass (only superficial changes).
- Orwellian nonsense

China now is a lot like China 50 years ago. This is evidenced by the NETs that go to China and are forced to salute pictures of Mao and teach the Little Red Book in English.

Quote
Kim - No longer needs to fear a civil war or coup. Make no mistake, his grip on power was in danger as he's running out
         of money to bribe his officials, has no food to feed his people and thanks to social media and North Koreans
         streaming back and forth from China, the propaganda is no longer as effective. By playing the reunification farce,
         sanctions will be lifted, Moon has his back and he'll be able to stay in power till the day he dies.

If that were true, who replaces Kim if he lost his grip on power?

Quote
Moon - His approval rating is now at an all time high and his 2nd term is pretty much guaranteed. It's interesting to
           note that the government has done a complete 180. Not 6 months ago, it was illegal to even visit a DPRK
           website or even publicly condone the regime. Now, it's becoming illegal to criticize it.
Korea has a 1-term presidency.

And it's not becoming illegal to criticize it. The government, per agreement, is preventing citizens from launching balloons into another country's airspace.

Quote
Trump - Can now technically claim responsibility for a massive diplomatic "victory". His brash and crass approach has
            neutralized a false flag fear of nuclear attack by North Korea. He can boast that he succeeded were Obama
            failed.

The fear wasn't just that North Korea would attack the U.S. or even the South, it's that it would export it's nuclear technology to other states.

You're right that the issue of armed forces along the DMZ and other belligerence is still an issue. Let's wait and see what happens. It isn't over and it's premature to give Trump a victory, but things are trending positively. And the whole point of people like Bolton being onboard is that if North Korea isn't genuine, then we can resume our hardline stance.

Online MayorHaggar

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Dealmaker Trump's Jenius Korea Deal

https://twitter.com/Max_Fisher/status/995750431082074112

In plain English:

• North Korea as a permanent nuclear power that can strike its neighbors, but not the mainland US
• NK can always break back out to an ICBM that can reach the US
• NK gives up most chem/bio weapons (sorta like Syria)
• Little or no way to know if NK cheats

Offline grey

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China didn't chamge overnoght after Nixon went there, but the country now could never do what Mao did.  It will be the same with North Korea. Just like Russia, the Saudis, Egypt, Chile, Colombia, Mexico, Cuba, Indonesia, Vietnam, etc.  They will all make progress and have troubles along the way. It's a natural part of liberalization when done gradually.

Only an idiot would think this can change overnight and end up in stability and that it SHOULD happen that way.

Almost 50yrs later and the majority of changes in China are superficial, the CCP has simply learned that if you're going to brutally oppress those who don't swear allegiance, it's better to be devious and cloak-and-dagger this time around. 

- You've still got a cult in power
- Said cult holds onto power ruthlessly
- People are quite literally not permitted to say words like 'Cultural Revolution', 'Tibet' or '1989 protests'. Anything you
  say online is monitored by the government.
- Anti-pollution laws are only enforced against the poor (people lighting fires in drums to stay warm) and the trillionaire
  coal barons in the north are given a free pass (only superficial changes).
- Orwellian nonsense

China aside, we're going to see the real reason for the Moon and Kim bromance. It's got nothing to do with reunification or anything inspiring. It's Kim, Trump and Moon sitting down and figuring out that this entire farce will benefit them, personally.

Kim - No longer needs to fear a civil war or coup. Make no mistake, his grip on power was in danger as he's running out
         of money to bribe his officials, has no food to feed his people and thanks to social media and North Koreans
         streaming back and forth from China, the propaganda is no longer as effective. By playing the reunification farce,
         sanctions will be lifted, Moon has his back and he'll be able to stay in power till the day he dies.

Moon - His approval rating is now at an all time high and his 2nd term is pretty much guaranteed. It's interesting to
           note that the government has done a complete 180. Not 6 months ago, it was illegal to even visit a DPRK
           website or even publicly condone the regime. Now, it's becoming illegal to criticize it.

Trump - Can now technically claim responsibility for a massive diplomatic "victory". His brash and crass approach has
            neutralized a false flag fear of nuclear attack by North Korea. He can boast that he succeeded were Obama
            failed.

All 3 win, everyone else is fooled.

China is far from perfect, but it's difficult for me to believe that the average Chinese person doesn't have a better situation now than in the sixties. Lots more middle class people. A good amount more of wealthy people. A lot of the poor are not as bad off. China definitely is a country of many classes, but indicators of quality of life must surely be better. Things like the ability to travel, eat meat, have access to decent healthcare surely must be better than fifty years ago.

Did they change the ability to get re-elected in South Korea? I thought you only had a single term.

I think the most important player of the main four is China. I don't think Kim's jaunt to China was for nothing, and I think China made it's interests known to him. I can't see anything North Korea does against the wishes of China. It just seems silly on China's part if they gave Kim freedom to do what he chooses. If China gets removal or reduction of American troops and THAAD taken care of, seems like a win for them.
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Offline Epistemology

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Oh look, everyone's favorite white Korean nationalist is whataboutistically sticking up for death camps, mass rapes, and forced abortions. Who could possibly have predicted that?

If Trump supports it, He'll defend it to the death. I guess it makes a change from his pre-trump shtick.

Dealmaker Trump's Jenius Korea Deal

https://twitter.com/Max_Fisher/status/995750431082074112

In plain English:

• North Korea as a permanent nuclear power that can strike its neighbors, but not the mainland US
• NK can always break back out to an ICBM that can reach the US
• NK gives up most chem/bio weapons (sorta like Syria)
• Little or no way to know if NK cheats

This is exactly what I've been predicting would happen since Chuseok last year. US would roll over with Trump in charge and SK would either have to stand up for itself and develop its own nukes, or live under a perpetual state of blackmail from NK.
 Worst ****ing dealmaker ever.

On a side note, this is why Abe tried to convince Trump to host the meeting in Tokyo. He wanted to be able to make sure at least any deal meant that NK would be defanged enough so that he wouldn't be getting missiles flying over Japan a few times a year. He ain't going to be happy with that. Another ally alienated. This is fun!

What are the odds that eventually under the continuing growth of right-wing Japanese nationalism, that Tokyo uses this as an excuse and eventually breaks from the non-proliferation treaty to start developing its own nuke programme?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 12:12:02 PM by Epistemology »
Away an bile yer heid ya numpty,ye dinnae ken whit yer talkin aboot.

Online Mr.DeMartino

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This is exactly what I've been predicting would happen since Chuseok last year. US would roll over with Trump in charge and SK would either have to stand up for itself and develop its own nukes, or live under a perpetual state of blackmail from NK.
 Worst ****ing dealmaker ever.

TDS "logic" on North Korea

News report indicating progress on North Korea-
"Hold on now, nothing has gotten signed. Trump can still mess this up. Let's not declare peace just yet, we need to wait and see what the full details are."

120 character Twitter opinion indicating cause for skepticism-
"It's over. It's all over. North Korea has completely conned us."

Let's wait and see the details. This may just be an excerpt of the deal and not the total deal. The most important part is KJE opening up the country and liberalizing as well as taking his country off of a "war" posture. At that point if he wants a few insurance nukes to make sure he doesn't get Ghaddafied (Thanks, Clinton), then big frickin deal. Mao had nukes after Nixon went to China.

Offline hangook77

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Korea has always had limits on their democracy.  Free speech, get sued for fake 'libel', President Park shutting down opponents and suing them when asking too many questions about Sewol.  Every President who leaves office gets charged and investigated by prosecutors.  Need I go on?  American free speech rights don't apply here so much.  Then again, Britian and many European countries seem headed in that direction too crushing free speech. 

Offline Epistemology

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This is exactly what I've been predicting would happen since Chuseok last year. US would roll over with Trump in charge and SK would either have to stand up for itself and develop its own nukes, or live under a perpetual state of blackmail from NK.
 Worst ****ing dealmaker ever.

TDS "logic" on North Korea

News report indicating progress on North Korea-
"Hold on now, nothing has gotten signed. Trump can still mess this up. Let's not declare peace just yet, we need to wait and see what the full details are."

120 character Twitter opinion indicating cause for skepticism-
"It's over. It's all over. North Korea has completely conned us."

Let's wait and see the details. This may just be an excerpt of the deal and not the total deal. The most important part is KJE opening up the country and liberalizing as well as taking his country off of a "war" posture. At that point if he wants a few insurance nukes to make sure he doesn't get Ghaddafied (Thanks, Clinton), then big frickin deal. Mao had nukes after Nixon went to China.

See, this is exactly what I mean. This laughable level of optimism towards a state that has played this game before and has form on playing its enemies to get what it wants for decades.

You have been conned. Every single sign out there points that way. You refuse to believe it because you're stuck wishing and hoping that Trump is not actually the complete charlatan that every single person he has ever crossed says he is. You cannot comprehend that a little obese kid with a stupid haircut may have actually outplayed a self proclaimed dealmaker who doesn't give a crap about the long term, and just wants something of note to his name.

This is a dance with North Korea that the world has done time and time again. Your boy isn't the first to be outplayed by a Kim, and probably won't be the last either.
Away an bile yer heid ya numpty,ye dinnae ken whit yer talkin aboot.

Online Mr.DeMartino

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See, this is exactly what I mean. This laughable level of optimism towards a state that has played this game before and has form on playing its enemies to get what it wants for decades.

Nothing says "Laughable level of optimism" like "Let's wait and see" and "we need to see the details" and "It isn't over and it's premature to give Trump a victory, but things are trending positively. "

Quote
You have been conned. Every single sign out there points that way. You refuse to believe it because you're stuck wishing and hoping that Trump is not actually the complete charlatan that every single person he has ever crossed says he is.

I think most Trump supporters are watching him with a very cautious eye and are ready to turn on him. The thing is the left thinks Trump tweeting something should be cause for people to turn on him when his supporters are looking at the big issues and results.

You're the ones who have bought the Russia stuff hook, line, and sinker. You're the ones that believed Trump was going to be Hitler and that there would be Klansmen marching everywhere and the economy would collapse. If you want charlatans, how about the media and the politicians who sold you that pile of fear-mongering?

Quote
You cannot comprehend that a little obese kid with a stupid haircut may have actually outplayed a self proclaimed dealmaker who doesn't give a crap about the long term, and just wants something of note to his name.

Again, lets wait and see. Trump is perfectly fine with walking away and going back to moving us towards conflict and massive economic pressure. He wins either way. He can simply say "We tried our best, North Korea didn't want peace, now Kim's time is up and his days are numbered". You seem to believe he is tied to this. He isn't. In fact, it is probable at some point that Trump does threaten to walk away (unless the deal has already been made). I mean, if John frickin Bolton gives it his blessing, then it's probably for real.

You're the one having trouble accepting that Trump may actually have had a better handle on this than your establishment crowd with their polite talk and saying the right things.

"Trump is threatening North Korea, he's a madman"
"Trump is making peace with North Korea, he's a madman"

You don't have any coherent policy, it's just anti-Trumpism.

Quote
This is a dance with North Korea that the world has done time and time again. Your boy isn't the first to be outplayed by a Kim, and probably won't be the last either.

The only person outplayed by Kim so far has been Obama. Now that may change and Trump may fail.

But history is not a fixed cycle. Things can change and breakthroughs can be made. Egypt was Israel's mortal enemy until Begin and Sadat made peace. Sadat fought Israel in the Yom Kippur War. That gave him the strength that enabled him to make peace with Israel, a peace that has lasted until this day. That could be the same with Kim. First establish strength and then you can establish peace.

Again- Why should anyone listen to you guys when your predictions have been so wrong?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 02:58:41 PM by Mr.DeMartino »

Offline pkjh

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Much of the population is left to die in gulags
When you say much of the population, what kind of numbers do you say are in the gulags? Because I highly doubt it's anywhere close to the majority of the population (50% + 1 = around 11 million-ish).

The numbers I've seen range anywhere from 30,000 to 200,000. Which imo isn't 'much' of the population, even at that high number.

Offline leaponover

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Isn't the point of NK finally giving in is because the sanctions have even made Kim feel poor (really he's not).  Seems like unification IS a step in ending the human rights atrocities.

Of course it will remain to be seen, but let's not act like an earnest unification isn't a step in the right direction for everyone involved.

Unless you think we should just say the hell with peace and let Kim keep testing nulcear weapons and keep things status quo.  I really don't even understand what you are complaining about.

I also think you have a strange definition of what endorsing is.