September 24, 2018, 06:44:18 AM


Author Topic: Workin' in a coal mine, whoop, about to slip down  (Read 652 times)

Online gogators!

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3070
  • Gender: Male
Workin' in a coal mine, whoop, about to slip down
« on: January 04, 2018, 11:21:49 AM »
Coal mine deaths almost doubled in 2017. maybe it's a good thing trumpy's efforts to revive the industry haven't done much, but then there's his efforts to make it less safe:

Quote
Caputo also expressed frustration with the Trump administration's efforts to undo regulations on the industry.

Officials with the Mine Safety and Health Administration have indicated they will consider changing rules designed to protect coal miners from coal and rock dust, which can cause black lung.

"The new head of MSHA, that was appointed by President Trump, his safety record is less than to be desired," Caputo said, referring to David Zatezalo, the former coal company executive who faced many questions about his own safety record during his confirmation process.


Offline Mr.DeMartino

  • Waygook Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 5268
  • Gender: Male
Re: Workin' in a coal mine, whoop, about to slip down
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2018, 01:52:57 PM »
The number jumped from 8 to 15.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2018/01/02/coal-mining-deaths-surge-2017-after-hitting-record-low/998410001/

We need to examine the numbers for total number of miners as well as hours worked. If those are also near-doubled, then the increase in deaths is understandable. Also, it's really hard to claim that 8-15 is actually statistically significant.

Lastly, let's look at the causes

Quote
Eight coal mining deaths this year involved hauling vehicles and two others involved machinery. None were attributed to an explosion of gas or dust, which was to blame for the Upper Big Branch disaster.

Sounds like simple statistical noise involving accidents that come with dangerous work.

Online gogators!

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3070
  • Gender: Male
Re: Workin' in a coal mine, whoop, about to slip down
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2018, 03:54:51 PM »
The number jumped from 8 to 15.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2018/01/02/coal-mining-deaths-surge-2017-after-hitting-record-low/998410001/

We need to examine the numbers for total number of miners as well as hours worked. If those are also near-doubled, then the increase in deaths is understandable. Also, it's really hard to claim that 8-15 is actually statistically significant.

Lastly, let's look at the causes

Quote
Eight coal mining deaths this year involved hauling vehicles and two others involved machinery. None were attributed to an explosion of gas or dust, which was to blame for the Upper Big Branch disaster.

Sounds like simple statistical noise involving accidents that come with dangerous work.
I'm sure it's significant to the dead and their families.

Funny coming from a guy who's gone on and on about the dangers of manning a register in a convenience store to just write it off as "comes with the job."

Should the US government be making policies that favors a dangerous occupation such as coal mining over the wind and solar energy industries?


Online eggieguffer

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
  • Gender: Male
Re: Workin' in a coal mine, whoop, about to slip down
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2018, 04:37:58 PM »
The number jumped from 8 to 15.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2018/01/02/coal-mining-deaths-surge-2017-after-hitting-record-low/998410001/

We need to examine the numbers for total number of miners as well as hours worked. If those are also near-doubled, then the increase in deaths is understandable. Also, it's really hard to claim that 8-15 is actually statistically significant.

Lastly, let's look at the causes

Quote
Eight coal mining deaths this year involved hauling vehicles and two others involved machinery. None were attributed to an explosion of gas or dust, which was to blame for the Upper Big Branch disaster.

Sounds like simple statistical noise involving accidents that come with dangerous work.
I'm sure it's significant to the dead and their families.

Funny coming from a guy who's gone on and on about the dangers of manning a register in a convenience store to just write it off as "comes with the job."

Should the US government be making policies that favors a dangerous occupation such as coal mining over the wind and solar energy industries?

Your political point was destroyed and so now you're making the point that, what? Families are upset when their loved ones are killed? That you care more about their suffering than DeMartino?

Have the good grace to admit it was a lame attack and move on. 

Online gogators!

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3070
  • Gender: Male
Re: Workin' in a coal mine, whoop, about to slip down
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2018, 05:32:21 PM »
The number jumped from 8 to 15.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2018/01/02/coal-mining-deaths-surge-2017-after-hitting-record-low/998410001/

We need to examine the numbers for total number of miners as well as hours worked. If those are also near-doubled, then the increase in deaths is understandable. Also, it's really hard to claim that 8-15 is actually statistically significant.

Lastly, let's look at the causes

Quote
Eight coal mining deaths this year involved hauling vehicles and two others involved machinery. None were attributed to an explosion of gas or dust, which was to blame for the Upper Big Branch disaster.

Sounds like simple statistical noise involving accidents that come with dangerous work.
I'm sure it's significant to the dead and their families.

Funny coming from a guy who's gone on and on about the dangers of manning a register in a convenience store to just write it off as "comes with the job."

Should the US government be making policies that favors a dangerous occupation such as coal mining over the wind and solar energy industries?

Your political point was destroyed and so now you're making the point that, what? Families are upset when their loved ones are killed? That you care more about their suffering than DeMartino?

Have the good grace to admit it was a lame attack and move on.
Read the post again. You might, just might, understand it.

Offline JNM

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3339
  • Gender: Male
Re: Workin' in a coal mine, whoop, about to slip down
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2018, 09:33:11 PM »
The “count the bodies” approach to safety analysis doesn’t work with small numbers.

Before Chernobyl, you could count nuclear power fatalities on one hand.

In Canada the number is still (well, last I looked it up it circa 2008) approximately 1; a car vs. train collision involving a plant security guard running paperwork to the local police station.

Source: I used to do safety analysis.


Offline Mr.DeMartino

  • Waygook Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 5268
  • Gender: Male
Re: Workin' in a coal mine, whoop, about to slip down
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2018, 12:17:21 AM »
The number jumped from 8 to 15.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2018/01/02/coal-mining-deaths-surge-2017-after-hitting-record-low/998410001/

We need to examine the numbers for total number of miners as well as hours worked. If those are also near-doubled, then the increase in deaths is understandable. Also, it's really hard to claim that 8-15 is actually statistically significant.

Lastly, let's look at the causes

Quote
Eight coal mining deaths this year involved hauling vehicles and two others involved machinery. None were attributed to an explosion of gas or dust, which was to blame for the Upper Big Branch disaster.

Sounds like simple statistical noise involving accidents that come with dangerous work.
I'm sure it's significant to the dead and their families.

Funny coming from a guy who's gone on and on about the dangers of manning a register in a convenience store to just write it off as "comes with the job."

Should the US government be making policies that favors a dangerous occupation such as coal mining over the wind and solar energy industries?

I said it was "not statistically signignificant". Do you know what that term means?

15 total on-site deaths due to accident, not crime, is likely to be the norm in any industry involving activity like coal mining. It also doesn't say whether any of those death were due to deregulation and not worker error.

Heck, you're liable to get a similar number of deaths from solar and wind just from building and maintaining them. Solar panels and wind towers don't magically appear out of thin air.

The important part of critical thinking is the thinking, not the critical.

It also shows how biased and sad journalists have become in going after Trump. This article would have been laughed out of any real journalism class, let alone an engineering/public administration/statistics class.

Offline JNM

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3339
  • Gender: Male
Re: Workin' in a coal mine, whoop, about to slip down
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2018, 07:19:55 AM »

The important part of critical thinking is the thinking, not the critical.


I like that.

Offline Mr C

  • Hero of Waygookistan
  • *****
  • Posts: 1417
  • Gender: Male
Re: Workin' in a coal mine, whoop, about to slip down
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2018, 07:54:50 AM »

The important part of critical thinking is the thinking, not the critical.


I like that.

I do too. Pity it's a case of Do as I say, not as I do.

Online gogators!

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3070
  • Gender: Male
Re: Workin' in a coal mine, whoop, about to slip down
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2018, 11:57:55 AM »
The number jumped from 8 to 15.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2018/01/02/coal-mining-deaths-surge-2017-after-hitting-record-low/998410001/

We need to examine the numbers for total number of miners as well as hours worked. If those are also near-doubled, then the increase in deaths is understandable. Also, it's really hard to claim that 8-15 is actually statistically significant.

Lastly, let's look at the causes

Quote
Eight coal mining deaths this year involved hauling vehicles and two others involved machinery. None were attributed to an explosion of gas or dust, which was to blame for the Upper Big Branch disaster.

Sounds like simple statistical noise involving accidents that come with dangerous work.
I'm sure it's significant to the dead and their families.

Funny coming from a guy who's gone on and on about the dangers of manning a register in a convenience store to just write it off as "comes with the job."

Should the US government be making policies that favors a dangerous occupation such as coal mining over the wind and solar energy industries?

I said it was "not statistically signignificant". Do you know what that term means?

15 total on-site deaths due to accident, not crime, is likely to be the norm in any industry involving activity like coal mining. It also doesn't say whether any of those death were due to deregulation and not worker error.

Heck, you're liable to get a similar number of deaths from solar and wind just from building and maintaining them. Solar panels and wind towers don't magically appear out of thin air.

The important part of critical thinking is the thinking, not the critical.

It also shows how biased and sad journalists have become in going after Trump. This article would have been laughed out of any real journalism class, let alone an engineering/public administration/statistics class.

Does your definition of thinking include not making assumptions?

Quote
The massive increase in wind and solar energy helped prevent the premature deaths of up to 12,700 people over a nine-year period in the US, according to new research which illustrates the wider benefits of ditching fossil fuels beyond limiting global warming.

Deaths caused by wind energy--111 since 1996.
Quote
111 were wind industry and direct support workers (divers, construction, maintenance, engineers, etc), or small turbine owner/operators.
http://www.caithnesswindfarms.co.uk/AccidentStatistics.htm

As for being laughed out of a J school class, very doubtful. Look who published the story:
USA Today
NPR
Bloomberg
Daily Mail
Mining Weekly
NY Daily News
CBS
Newsweek
Many local newspapers, TV stations and industry websites

Your thinking: "sounds like," "likely," "I said."

Critical thinking would include some evidence rather than just WACGs.