August 22, 2018, 09:36:48 AM


Author Topic: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.  (Read 22873 times)

Online eggieguffer

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4100
  • Gender: Male
Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #280 on: August 30, 2017, 07:14:06 PM »
Quote
The centuries of Capitalism were held to have produced nothing of value. One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. statues,
 inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets - anything that could throw light upon the past had been systematically altered.

George Orwell 1984
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 07:16:02 PM by eggieguffer »

Online gogators!

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2953
  • Gender: Male
Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #281 on: August 30, 2017, 09:13:39 PM »
Forum users who think slavery was OK and "blacks were probably better off" under slavery:

CDW
eggieguffer
Mr.Demartino
Shanebarry1986

Did not say that at all. Please correct your opinion.

Should we have invaded Iraq and gotten rid of Saddam Hussein and disbanded the Iraqi Army? No, you think human rights abuses are okay.

Do you think we should start bombing Kim Jong Eun? No? Then you support labor camps, torture, and virtually slavery.

woah woah woah. I'm just a reporter of facts. I scanned this thread all the messages and the list above is what I found. The list is sound. The list is accurate.
As for the middle east (or the levant as those of us in the know call it) that's a totally different discussion. If you want to chat about that, please start a new thread about it and I'll meet you in there. See you soon.

I have to concur. The list is an accurate reflection of the facts. It might not make for pleasant reading but the truth rarely is. Any of them could have made a quick statement to the effect that they think slavery is abhorrent but they all chose not to. Side with Nazis for the lulz? Don't be surprised if you're not popular as a result.

DeMartino, you threw your hat in the ring with the white supremacists. You have to accept some of the flack. I look forward to your dadaist whataboutery in other threads.

It's only a fact if you have shitty reading comprehension and an inability to carefully parse an argument. If you can't distinguish why something is and potential effects from an endorsement, then that's your problem.

Like I said, your argument is literally the logical equivalent of this-

"Toppling Saddam and disbanding the Iraqi Army overnight could cause significant ethnic instability in the Middle East for generations."
"You support Saddam Hussein and think it's okay to gas civilians!"

"Toppling the slaveholding structure and disbanding slavery overnight could cause significant ethnic massive instability for generations."
"You support slavery and think it's okay for black people to be oppressed!"

That's your pathetic logic. It's flawed reasoning and anyone who can read those sentences knows it is. Pathetic reading comprehension and critical thinking skills.
Don't ever let you see them sweat.

With every post you make, your guilt becomes ever clearer.

Offline JamSiManYo

  • Adventurer
  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • Gender: Male
Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #282 on: August 30, 2017, 10:38:46 PM »
The filming of it or the destruction? Either way, what in the video shows that they were manipulated into taking that course of action?

By course of action, I was referring to all of it -- the filming, the assembly, the chants, the takedown, the spitting and kicking of an inanimate object, as well as whatever went on behind the scenes. The fact that they had caution tape and a ladder. The fact that someone had to author those chants.

In terms of manipulation, please respect the quote marks. I meant it ironically. Let's pretend I said "molded" or "led toward a certain conclusion." It's unreasonable to expect any evidence of manipulation from a 1.5 minute video but it won't stop the opposition from characterizing these people as brainwashed.

My point was whatever education these people received in life led them to this place and time. That education was most assuredly delivered (or reinforced) by other liberals. This is self-evident, IMO.

I'd have to disagree. This is equivalent to saying all those Neo-Nazis and White Supremacies have been indoctrinated by conservatives. Sure, some conservatives do hold those crazy beliefs, but people form opinions by themselves.

Huh? Your analogy might be equivalent in scale but not scope or comprehensiveness. More apt: Proto Neo-Nazis and White Supremacists grew up in a bubble in which they had constant exposure to their peers saying racist things without reprimand, were treated in a way that fostered an inflated sense of self worth, had role models who validated and normalized this behavior, and maybe even witnessed a handful of real-world instances that confirmed their biases (see 4chan).

People form opinions by themselves based on their life's experiences. People aren't born with any of the precursory knowledge that supports those opinions. I'm arguing the knowledge they obtained was peppered with bias.

I think you may be measuring other people up based on your capacity for reason. I wouldn't put much stock on the average person's willingness to diligently challenge their own beliefs.

Online Mr.DeMartino

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4942
  • Gender: Male
Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #283 on: August 31, 2017, 09:38:17 AM »

These two scenarios are simply not equivalent. One involves the planning out of a foreign invasion. The other was an inevitable outcome of a civil war.

But the problem a select few posters have (and frankly, I think its more their personal axe to grind against me rather than any actually well-founded argument) is not with my comments regarding Lee during the war, but prior to the war.

Everything else you wrote, I completely agree with. I think if you go back to the beginning of this thread and read what I have to say, it's obvious that in no way am I defending slavery, only placing certain actions within the context of history (and offering no moral judgment one way or the other), in fact I specifically cite John Brown and Wendell Phillips being the moral ideal in one post.

But I guess having John Brown and Wendell Phillips as the moral ideal makes me pro-slavery.  :rolleyes:

Offline Arabin

  • Veteran
  • **
  • Posts: 235
Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #284 on: August 31, 2017, 09:45:14 AM »

These two scenarios are simply not equivalent. One involves the planning out of a foreign invasion. The other was an inevitable outcome of a civil war.

But the problem a select few posters have (and frankly, I think its more their personal axe to grind against me rather than any actually well-founded argument) is not with my comments regarding Lee during the war, but prior to the war.

Everything else you wrote, I completely agree with. I think if you go back to the beginning of this thread and read what I have to say, it's obvious that in no way am I defending slavery, only placing certain actions within the context of history (and offering no moral judgment one way or the other), in fact I specifically cite John Brown and Wendell Phillips being the moral ideal in one post.

But I guess having John Brown and Wendell Phillips as the moral ideal makes me pro-slavery.  :rolleyes:

You tried to argue that Lee had his slaves whipped and brine rubbed in the wounds because he was a military man and confused his plantation for the barracks.




Offline AnthroInKorea28

  • Adventurer
  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Gender: Male
  • I need a drink... a very stiff drink.
Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #285 on: August 31, 2017, 09:56:16 AM »
While confederate statues aren't an issue I would normally get worked up about, I can't help but notice that there seems to have been a disturbing trend in recent years coming from college millennial of an entitlement that if " it offends you then it is okay to act as violent or uncivilized as possible to get rid of it." Events that took place a Berkley, The occupation of Evergreen, this most recent round of "Confederates... Muh Racism....Muh offensive..." are just the most recent in what has been a growing tide of intellectual protectionism and group think on college campuses. I remember a few years back when I was working on a masters degree, Christina Hoff Summers did a lecture at our school I was shocked by all the calls from students wanting her banned from campus, I could understand if it was Anne Coulter or Milo Yinnonoplis, I would still be against banning them but at least with the more firebrand and provocative speakers I can understand the impulse. However Christina Hoff Summers is far from a provocateur, she is an academic who may make strong criticisms of feminism, but always in a professional manner done with academic decorum. When I saw the conduct of students at the lecture, namely the ones who were opposed to Summers viewpoints I was even more disgusted that students of an institution of higher learning had such little self control and self respect as to act like a unruly mob rather than attendants of a lecture. There were frequent interruptions of the speaker, constant jeering, and when the Q&A section came no one student could fashion an effective question or criticism. It just turned into a contest of who could use the most buzz words in an attempt to label Summers as a misogynist, racist, Rape apologist. If this is now the standard for college students then I shutter to think what our Universities will look like in 20 years time, places where only one type of thought is taught and everything else is deemed offensive and forbidden. Some where along the line we never taught students how to deal with contradictory opinions or being offended. Now we have a whole group of self indulgent intellectual partisans.
“The more I learn about people, the more I like my dog.”
― Mark Twain

Offline weigookin74

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4170
  • Gender: Male
Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #286 on: August 31, 2017, 10:02:18 AM »
George Soros funded distractions.  These and similar protests have been occurring for the last few years (even before Trump came along).  Maybe if some impressionable young people get stirred up and a few paid agitators get everyone else going, then they won't notice the lack of good jobs and chance at a middle class lifestyle.  Those who saw through the smoke and mirrors with an aversion to bullshit voted for Trump.  Maybe, he'll succeed or maybe he won't.  But, it was a big F U to the establishment.  I guess it depends on how much the Repubs and Dems keep trying to block him.  Big money is what most the politicians follow.  Soros, Koch brothers, etc.  They want to block Trump all the way.  If he succeeds in bringing back good paying jobs; then folks will be more independent and won't be dependent on the government nor will outside agitators be able to stir people up as easily as now.  All, these protests are stupid diversionary wedge issues and a distraction from what the politicians of all stripes have been doing for the past 20 years or so and that's screwing you. 

Online Mr.DeMartino

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4942
  • Gender: Male
Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #287 on: August 31, 2017, 10:44:50 AM »
You tried to argue that Lee had his slaves whipped and brine rubbed in the wounds because he was a military man and confused treated his plantation for the like a barracks.

Yes. I give no value judgment on his actions there. Only to say that he was a military man with a stern sense of discipline regarding himself and how subordinate should behave. The normal penalty for desertion in wartime was hanging. Firing squad if you were lucky. In peacetime or in camp between battles the standard punishment at the time was.....flogging.

Lee treated his slaves the same way men under his command would be treated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertion

You can say that both punishments are harsh and wrong, but you cannot say that Lee's punishment for escaped slaves was cruel especially considering his profession as a soldier.

Offline Arabin

  • Veteran
  • **
  • Posts: 235
Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #288 on: August 31, 2017, 11:16:32 AM »
You tried to argue that Lee had his slaves whipped and brine rubbed in the wounds because he was a military man and confused treated his plantation for the like a barracks.

Yes. I give no value judgment on his actions there. Only to say that he was a military man with a stern sense of discipline regarding himself and how subordinate should behave. The normal penalty for desertion in wartime was hanging. Firing squad if you were lucky. In peacetime or in camp between battles the standard punishment at the time was.....flogging.

Lee treated his slaves the same way men under his command would be treated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertion

You can say that both punishments are harsh and wrong, but you cannot say that Lee's punishment for escaped slaves was cruel especially considering his profession as a soldier.


Online Mr.DeMartino

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4942
  • Gender: Male
Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #289 on: August 31, 2017, 12:02:17 PM »
If you think what I wrote supports slavery, I'm sorry. I have tried to explain things as best I can. I don't think there is any serious academic who would read what I wrote and think "He's supporting slavery" outside of perhaps the extreme SJW-professors. Might they think it's an apology? Perhaps, but they certainly wouldn't leap to "YOU SUPPORT SLAVERY!".

If you can't discuss things in a mature and learned manner, befitting a college graduate, and instead can only respond with .jpgs, then we're done here.

Offline Arabin

  • Veteran
  • **
  • Posts: 235
Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #290 on: August 31, 2017, 12:11:55 PM »
.

If you can't discuss things in a mature and learned manner, befitting a college graduate, and instead can only respond with .jpgs, then we're done here.

I can do video too. Everybody likes a song


Online gogators!

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2953
  • Gender: Male
Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #291 on: August 31, 2017, 01:45:58 PM »
Is there some axiom saying that the less sense the post makes the less chance there is that the author uses paragraphs? (dm/sr seems to be the exception.)

BTW, dm/sr, I hope you've got a good pair of work gloves to protect your hands while you dig yourself ever deeper.


Offline MayorHaggar

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3381
Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #292 on: August 31, 2017, 02:14:26 PM »
While confederate statues aren't an issue I would normally get worked up about, I can't help but notice that there seems to have been a disturbing trend in recent years coming from college millennial of an entitlement that if " it offends you then it is okay to act as violent or uncivilized as possible to get rid of it." Events that took place a Berkley, The occupation of Evergreen, this most recent round of "Confederates... Muh Racism....Muh offensive..." are just the most recent in what has been a growing tide of intellectual protectionism and group think on college campuses. I remember a few years back when I was working on a masters degree, Christina Hoff Summers did a lecture at our school I was shocked by all the calls from students wanting her banned from campus, I could understand if it was Anne Coulter or Milo Yinnonoplis, I would still be against banning them but at least with the more firebrand and provocative speakers I can understand the impulse. However Christina Hoff Summers is far from a provocateur, she is an academic who may make strong criticisms of feminism, but always in a professional manner done with academic decorum. When I saw the conduct of students at the lecture, namely the ones who were opposed to Summers viewpoints I was even more disgusted that students of an institution of higher learning had such little self control and self respect as to act like a unruly mob rather than attendants of a lecture. There were frequent interruptions of the speaker, constant jeering, and when the Q&A section came no one student could fashion an effective question or criticism. It just turned into a contest of who could use the most buzz words in an attempt to label Summers as a misogynist, racist, Rape apologist. If this is now the standard for college students then I shutter to think what our Universities will look like in 20 years time, places where only one type of thought is taught and everything else is deemed offensive and forbidden. Some where along the line we never taught students how to deal with contradictory opinions or being offended. Now we have a whole group of self indulgent intellectual partisans.

Eh, still beats trying to destroy America by starting a massive civil war to defend slavery.

Offline Aurata

  • Expert Waygook
  • ****
  • Posts: 920
  • Gender: Male
  • Je regrette rien
Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #293 on: September 12, 2017, 11:43:45 PM »
Eh, still beats trying to destroy America by starting a massive civil war to defend slavery.

You don't even know the history of your own country.

Hate to break it to you ..but the civil war was not to defend slavery.

That is an artistic moralistic reconstruction. Another piece of propaganda you swallowed without question.

You think the northern states were against slavery?

Then why did congress, consisting only of the Northern states, pass overwhelmingly on March 2, 1861, on the eve of the war itself, the Corwin Amendment that gave constitutional protection to slavery.

Lincoln endorsed the amendment in his inaugural address, saying “I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable.”

Try harder.



Imagine your Korea...

Offline Arabin

  • Veteran
  • **
  • Posts: 235
Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #294 on: September 13, 2017, 07:40:39 AM »
Poor Aurata. Now he is reduced to necroing old fighting threads just to get his fix of attention. You can feel the panic about having his favourite conspiracy theory dumping ground die out. He had found a niche of people in the corner of the internet and could annoy them all day with his odd Putin love fantasies.

But now Aurata is facing the prospect of putting his brand of nutbaggery on the open market. And there he's just one of many, many cranks. All overshadowed by seasoned pros like Alex Jones.

Try harder.

You'll have to, kid. You'll have to.

Offline kyndo

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4375
Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #295 on: September 13, 2017, 08:28:09 AM »
Eh, still beats trying to destroy America by starting a massive civil war to defend slavery.

You don't even know the history of your own country.

Hate to break it to you ..but the civil war was not to defend slavery.

That is an artistic moralistic reconstruction. Another piece of propaganda you swallowed without question.

You think the northern states were against slavery?

Then why did congress, consisting only of the Northern states, pass overwhelmingly on March 2, 1861, on the eve of the war itself, the Corwin Amendment that gave constitutional protection to slavery.

Lincoln endorsed the amendment in his inaugural address, saying “I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable.”

Try harder.
     Given the timing and circumstances, I assume it was a last ditch effort to entice the slave states that bordered the Union from seceding. Obviously it didn't work.

      You'll note that when the Civil War actually happened, the Corwin Amendment was torpedoed. No need for it, as there was no longer any possibility for appeasement.

    That the American Civil War was started to defend the institution of slavery might be a gross oversimplification... but that issue (and the issue of increasingly centralised power) was at the heart of it.

     From casual discussion and random readings (I'm not American), I've been led to believe that keeping economic and independent political power was why the southernmost states seceded, formed the Confederacy, and got their miserable slaving arses kicked. Would you agree with that slightly broader explanation?
  :smiley:
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 08:33:14 AM by kyndo »

Online Mr.DeMartino

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4942
  • Gender: Male
Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #296 on: September 13, 2017, 09:20:09 AM »
Eh, still beats trying to destroy America by starting a massive civil war to defend slavery.

You don't even know the history of your own country.

Hate to break it to you ..but the civil war was not to defend slavery.

That is an artistic moralistic reconstruction. Another piece of propaganda you swallowed without question.

You think the northern states were against slavery?

Then why did congress, consisting only of the Northern states, pass overwhelmingly on March 2, 1861, on the eve of the war itself, the Corwin Amendment that gave constitutional protection to slavery.

Lincoln endorsed the amendment in his inaugural address, saying “I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable.”

Try harder.

This is just flat out wrong. That the war happened because of slavery is without question. Without slavery, that war does not happen. You might have a different civil war- one that would likely be fought between the traditional "Eastern" states (which would likely include Virginia, North Carolina, and Georgia) joining New England and the Atlantic states) against the emerging "Western" states like Ohio, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, Texas, Arkansas, possibly Louisiana over the Mississippi river and agriculture vs. the industrial-exporting areas of the East.

Slavery was the cause of the American Civil War. It had been brewing since the founding of the country and was further exacerbated by various European powers abolishing slavery, moral developments, westward expansion, and the Mexican-American War. Holding an entire race of people in permanent bondage made war inevitable in a country whose founding principle was "All men are created equal". Anyone who denies this is discounting history and the wealth of evidence that slavery was why the war happened.

This doesn't mean that individual soldiers didn't fight for other reasons, but the war was about slavery.

Offline Arabin

  • Veteran
  • **
  • Posts: 235
Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #297 on: September 13, 2017, 10:12:55 AM »
Eh, still beats trying to destroy America by starting a massive civil war to defend slavery.

You don't even know the history of your own country.

Hate to break it to you ..but the civil war was not to defend slavery.

That is an artistic moralistic reconstruction. Another piece of propaganda you swallowed without question.

You think the northern states were against slavery?

Then why did congress, consisting only of the Northern states, pass overwhelmingly on March 2, 1861, on the eve of the war itself, the Corwin Amendment that gave constitutional protection to slavery.

Lincoln endorsed the amendment in his inaugural address, saying “I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable.”

Try harder.

This is just flat out wrong. That the war happened because of slavery is without question. Without slavery, that war does not happen. You might have a different civil war- one that would likely be fought between the traditional "Eastern" states (which would likely include Virginia, North Carolina, and Georgia) joining New England and the Atlantic states) against the emerging "Western" states like Ohio, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, Texas, Arkansas, possibly Louisiana over the Mississippi river and agriculture vs. the industrial-exporting areas of the East.

Slavery was the cause of the American Civil War. It had been brewing since the founding of the country and was further exacerbated by various European powers abolishing slavery, moral developments, westward expansion, and the Mexican-American War. Holding an entire race of people in permanent bondage made war inevitable in a country whose founding principle was "All men are created equal". Anyone who denies this is discounting history and the wealth of evidence that slavery was why the war happened.

This doesn't mean that individual soldiers didn't fight for other reasons, but the war was about slavery.

Wow! So you admit the South fought for slavery. It's just that you see nothing wrong with that.

Online Mr.DeMartino

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4942
  • Gender: Male
Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #298 on: September 13, 2017, 11:09:41 AM »
Wow! So you admit the South fought for slavery. It's just that you see nothing wrong with that.

I never made a value judgment on their cause. I simply stated why they fought and that certain soldiers fought for certain reasons and had a wide range of views. I stated that some of them were very able generals and that some by the standards of the time, treated their slaves comparatively well.

The problem is that you lack the ability to read and comprehend at a collegiate level and to engage in nuanced academic discourse, thus you misinterpret what people say and turn it into a simplistic caricature, possibly because you lack the intellectual capacity to process complex concepts- which has become painfully clear to many people on this board, even those that disagree with me and side with you.

Offline Aurata

  • Expert Waygook
  • ****
  • Posts: 920
  • Gender: Male
  • Je regrette rien
Re: Spoiled Millennials take down Confederate Statue and kick it.
« Reply #299 on: September 13, 2017, 11:15:59 AM »
Eh, still beats trying to destroy America by starting a massive civil war to defend slavery.

You don't even know the history of your own country.

Hate to break it to you ..but the civil war was not to defend slavery.

That is an artistic moralistic reconstruction. Another piece of propaganda you swallowed without question.

You think the northern states were against slavery?

Then why did congress, consisting only of the Northern states, pass overwhelmingly on March 2, 1861, on the eve of the war itself, the Corwin Amendment that gave constitutional protection to slavery.

Lincoln endorsed the amendment in his inaugural address, saying “I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable.”

Try harder.

This is just flat out wrong. That the war happened because of slavery is without question.

The north wasn't fighting against slavery. How could they be when on the very eve of the war the congress and incoming president were making it unconstitutional to abolish slavery?

How could the south be fighting for slavery, when the north wasn't fighting against it?

The real reason was economic. The north did not want to give up the high tarrifs and economic policies that the south objected to.

Blaming the war on slavery was the way the court historians used morality to cover up Lincolns naked aggression. Demonizing the enemy with moral language works for the victor.

And this is still a strong feature of politics.
Imagine your Korea...