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Author Topic: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment  (Read 5153 times)

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2017, 04:57:33 PM »
Or was it their inflated GPAs and BS recommendations? Just askin'.

For a few I got the sense that they weren't ready. Most did quite well and are now working for various companies in the U.S. or some graduated and came back to Korea to successful careers.

Oddly, the ones that underachieved were the ones that had really well-off parents and came to the U.S. for high school. They went to private liberal arts colleges in the U.S. and partied a bit too much and came home.

1. So you interacted closely with all the Korean students on campus? Or are you just (over) generalizing?

2. Nothing odd about that.

I attended church with some (there were 5 Korean churches in my area, some leaned more 2nd gen, others more international student)

I can only speak for the ones in my church and my friends who I went to H.S. with, but I think they're a pretty typical of what you get. Some clearly couldn't hack it. Some went to the local Community College instead. Some struggled. Some thrived. Overall though, they did well enough. None of them failed and they all went on to decent or better careers.
Did you go to meet chicks or for the Wednesday night suppers? You certainly didn't go for the sermons.

Offline MayorHaggar

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2017, 06:47:13 PM »
He must have had a lot of free time on his hands after slaving away for years in American hagwons just to make it into the University of Michigan, that integral gem of the South Korean educational system.

And we all know that the best way to evaluate the intelligence of 18 year old high school students is to give them questions equivalent to a law school entrance exam that isn't in their native language.

And in any case the LSAT isn't anywhere as cruel or clownish as the Suneung, its questions are confusing but they're at least written in natural English, unlike any kind of English used in South Korea.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 06:52:19 PM by MayorHaggar »

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2017, 09:28:33 PM »
Did you go to meet chicks or for the Wednesday night suppers? You certainly didn't go for the sermons.

Oh I went for the sermon, but when you stay after, well, let's just say you aren't far off. I'm not going to be one of those people that tries to pretend that those didn't have appeal.

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2017, 09:49:01 PM »
He must have had a lot of free time on his hands after slaving away for years in American hagwons just to make it into the University of Michigan, that integral gem of the South Korean educational system.

At the end of the day, those Korean international students that attended the UofM saw their hard work and due diligence pay off. They had the discipline, even as youngsters, to work hard and give it their best. They succeeded and were able to attend a very very good university in the United States, graduate, and go on and have careers in America and move there and become citizens.

They walked the walk. Have you walked the walk like that or are you just a bunch of talk?

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And we all know that the best way to evaluate the intelligence of 18 year old high school students is to give them questions equivalent to a law school entrance exam that isn't in their native language.

We aren't evaluating their intelligence, we're evaluating their English reading comprehension ability.

You know, given how poor you are at some of this, maybe you'd benefit from some time in an English hagwon and/or test prep class. You might improve some of your skills there, which frankly, you haven't show to advantage here.

One of them got her JD and passed the California Bar. They put in the work and succeeded. Maybe those hours in hagwon were the difference maker. Have you done anything like that?

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And in any case the LSAT isn't anywhere as cruel or clownish as the Suneung, its questions are confusing but they're at least written in natural English, unlike any kind of English used in South Korea.

Those questions are pretty comparable. 

Also, they are excerpts from published scholarly works, like questions in the GRE and LSAT. Perhaps you should have tried a simple google search first before making the bogus claim that these are not natural English.

Just because the questions are too difficult for YOU, does not mean the questions are bad.

https://books.google.com/books?id=rF_XAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=%22an+executed+purpose+in+short+is+a+transaction+in+which+the+time+and+energy%22&source=bl&ots=w067pP9Ja_&sig=9sFU9WNh96RQtChcNgrRe_twd-A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjj9oLtosrVAhVlzFQKHQWUC3gQ6AEIUjAH#v=onepage&q=%22an%20executed%20purpose%20in%20short%20is%20a%20transaction%20in%20which%20the%20time%20and%20energy%22&f=false

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/science-and-non-science-in-liberal-education

Online gogators!

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2017, 09:18:40 AM »
Did you go to meet chicks or for the Wednesday night suppers? You certainly didn't go for the sermons.

Oh I went for the sermon, but when you stay after, well, let's just say you aren't far off. I'm not going to be one of those people that tries to pretend that those didn't have appeal.
In all of the sermons you heard, there was nothing about always telling the truth? Just askin'.

Actually, I thought you were going to post that you were the preacher, just another in the long list of your former occupations.  8)

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2017, 09:57:35 AM »
Quote
Actually, I thought you were going to post that you were the preacher, just another in the long list of your former occupations. 

"And the Lord will smiteth with great vengeance all ye wise men working in foreign lands who think ye are better than ye really are."

Offline MayorHaggar

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2017, 10:09:03 AM »
He must have had a lot of free time on his hands after slaving away for years in American hagwons just to make it into the University of Michigan, that integral gem of the South Korean educational system.

At the end of the day, those Korean international students that attended the UofM saw their hard work and due diligence pay off. They had the discipline, even as youngsters, to work hard and give it their best. They succeeded and were able to attend a very very good university in the United States, graduate, and go on and have careers in America and move there and become citizens.

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They already train them adequately, but the students want to do better than "adequate", they want exemplary, which is probably why they ended up going to Harvard or Princeton or Yale as an international undergrad or grad student and have a job that pays 200k a year, while you're over here teaching their cousins English in a country you hate but can't leave.

Wait...you went to UM...and you teach cousin English in Korea...who are you trying to insult here, yourself?

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2017, 10:14:14 AM »

Wait...you went to UM...and you teach cousin English in Korea...who are you trying to insult here, yourself?

I didn't go to UofM, most of them did (some went to State or Eastern or lib arts schools).

The point is that they studied hard at their hagwon. Went to a very very very good university in another country. Completed undergrad or grad or doctorate programs at that university and went on to have successful careers.

Do you have a similar track record of success? Maybe you shouldn't totally shit on them and dismiss their studying at those hagwons and what it took to get where they are.

As I said, maybe if instead of whatever it was you did in H.S., you had studied a lot harder, you might have a different outcome than the one you are currently enjoying- living in a country you hate.

Offline MayorHaggar

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2017, 11:27:59 AM »
Imagine being a dumb enough troll to think you can shit on people for teaching English in Korea while teaching English in Korea.

HS classmates of mine went to Ivy League schools and all they had to do was do well in high-level public school classes and get a good SAT score which unlike the Suneung does not reward endless cramming. They were NOT spending 6 hours every day "studying" after school. Meanwhile 0% of Koreans will get into good Korean universities based solely on public school performance and education, because the Korean public school system fails students.

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2017, 11:53:16 AM »
Imagine being a dumb enough troll to think you can shit on people for teaching English in Korea while teaching English in Korea.

HS classmates of mine went to Ivy League schools and all they had to do was do well in high-level public school classes and get a good SAT score which unlike the Suneung does not reward endless cramming. They were NOT spending 6 hours every day "studying" after school. Meanwhile 0% of Koreans will get into good Korean universities based solely on public school performance and education, because the Korean public school system fails students.

I'm not shitting on everyone, only the haters. I think most of us are happy if some Korean studies hard and goes to SKY or a good US university. We're not bitter at Korea and it's people and don't endlessly complain about them or their people. If studying hard works for them and pays off, more power too em'. To the Korean people who studied at the hagwons and saw it payoff by living the American Dream, I say congratulations!

But if someone is going to shit on them and "Why are they studying" and blah blah blah, I have to say, "Hey, they did better than you, maybe you should have done what they did".

Of course your classmates went to Ivies after studying. But consider, for a Korean to go to an Ivy, they can't just go to their school. They might need more. Just as someone who wants to play in the NBA might go to basketball camp and join some rec leagues or do some extra training instead of just signing up for their local team, so too do they have to practice a lot.

As far as studying for the entrance exam, because that is the criteria used by universities, it makes sense to study for it, maybe do extra studying. Say what you will, IT IS an objective way to evaluate students. Now, there are some students who are naturally talented who don't have to go to hagwons, but for the most part, their parents, and them, want extra practice to do better. I know some Korean kids whose only hagwons are 'hobby' hagwons like Baduk/Piano/Soccer/etc. and their parents don't buy into the system. Typically though, these students are already extremely talented and have a natural inclination towards learning and study. Others might do it because they are genuinely interested in the subject.

Also, those students probably were studying in some form. They had to read the books for literature class. They had to study the material for history class. They had to do projects and write papers so they could get a good grade.

In my H.S. nearly all gifted students attended Humanities class, which was a 2 hour a day, essentially undergrad (and with today's falling standards, it was a high-level undergrad) class that had four components- Western Civ/Philosophy, Western Lit, Music Theory, and Art History. You HAD to study for that class after school. A lot. Your homework for the week might involving reading the Canterbury Tales (the original), reading Augustine, knowing works of Gothic and Romanesque architecture, and being able to identify motets from madrigals and so on. This was not easy. The average student spent several hours a day, peaking at 6-8 hours a day or two before exams. And probably 12 hours before midterms if they wanted to do well. The teachers were unforgiving in grading and you HAD to know the material. And yes, a lot of it was forgotten as it was on to differentiating Giotto from Cimabue and Abelard from Aquinas. The reward? Every class in undergrad paled in comparison in difficulty compared to that. It really did prepare students.

All I'm saying is that the road to success is frequently paved with hard work and determination and that should be respected.

Online zola

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2017, 02:02:26 PM »
All I'm saying is that the road to success is frequently paved with hard work and determination and that should be respected.
Hot take there my man.

No one is debating that are they?
The majority of people who have objective success worked hard to get it. Kudos to them.

The point people are arguing, or at least I am, is that Korea has set up a system where children have to sacrifice an important part of their youth and a chunk of their parents income to achieve even middling success. I have a family member who is successful in his career and life at a level beyond all of us posting in this thread. He worked hard for sure. Harder than me. But he still enjoyed his teenage years. He didnt go to a hagwon type institution. He had maths tuition 1 hour per week from my mum's friends husband and was in the accelerated class at school.

The Korean system has made it  almost necessary to pay into the private education sector for little real gain when it's all said and done. If ALL or even HALF the kids going through this meat grinder were coming out and moving into well paying jobs and having successful careers in whatever, than we could draw a line under it and say 'well they have a shite adolescence, but hey its worth it. Look at this amazing graduate employment rate and other economic indicators'. But that isnt the case.

I could understand if it was just the ivy league or SKY hopefuls sacrificing their life for their goal. The top tier. But instead almost everyone is having to do it when the fact is almost all of them will get nowhere near where they should be you consider the amount they have had to study and the bullshit they have been through. The equation doesnt equal put for over 90% of them.
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Offline MayorHaggar

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2017, 02:21:38 PM »
Imagine being a dumb enough troll to think you can shit on people for teaching English in Korea while teaching English in Korea.

HS classmates of mine went to Ivy League schools and all they had to do was do well in high-level public school classes and get a good SAT score which unlike the Suneung does not reward endless cramming. They were NOT spending 6 hours every day "studying" after school. Meanwhile 0% of Koreans will get into good Korean universities based solely on public school performance and education, because the Korean public school system fails students.

I'm not shitting on everyone, only the haters. I think most of us are happy if some Korean studies hard and goes to SKY or a good US university. We're not bitter at Korea and it's people and don't endlessly complain about them or their people. If studying hard works for them and pays off, more power too em'. To the Korean people who studied at the hagwons and saw it payoff by living the American Dream, I say congratulations!

But if someone is going to shit on them and "Why are they studying" and blah blah blah, I have to say, "Hey, they did better than you, maybe you should have done what they did".

You and I know the reason they're "studying" is because the Korean public school system doesn't teach kids well enough to take Korean public school tests. Nobody is demeaning their studying, just pointing out that it's completely pointless. And then you get clueless Korean education officials upset about how poorer Korean parents aren't sending their kids to hagwons.

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2017, 02:41:29 PM »
All I'm saying is that the road to success is frequently paved with hard work and determination and that should be respected.
Hot take there my man.

No one is debating that are they?
The majority of people who have objective success worked hard to get it. Kudos to them.

The point people are arguing, or at least I am, is that Korea has set up a system where children have to sacrifice an important part of their youth and a chunk of their parents income to achieve even middling success. I have a family member who is successful in his career and life at a level beyond all of us posting in this thread. He worked hard for sure. Harder than me. But he still enjoyed his teenage years. He didnt go to a hagwon type institution. He had maths tuition 1 hour per week from my mum's friends husband and was in the accelerated class at school.

The Korean system has made it  almost necessary to pay into the private education sector for little real gain when it's all said and done. If ALL or even HALF the kids going through this meat grinder were coming out and moving into well paying jobs and having successful careers in whatever, than we could draw a line under it and say 'well they have a shite adolescence, but hey its worth it. Look at this amazing graduate employment rate and other economic indicators'. But that isnt the case.

I could understand if it was just the ivy league or SKY hopefuls sacrificing their life for their goal. The top tier. But instead almost everyone is having to do it when the fact is almost all of them will get nowhere near where they should be you consider the amount they have had to study and the bullshit they have been through. The equation doesnt equal put for over 90% of them.

Well, that's certainly true, but we are assuming that if they had a school system that it would produce results like ours. In some sense it would- Students would still go to SKY universities (those slots are always going to be open), but would they be as prepared? Perhaps, perhaps not. Maybe if our students all went to hagwons, they might have rosier math and reading scores and the standards for our undergraduate students would not be as low as they are now, with many students ill-prepared for college. Furthermore, there would always be the temptation to send kids to hagwons for extra tutoring, even if the schools were excellent, the students would still want to study and do better.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-04-27/high-school-seniors-arent-college-ready-naep-data-show

http://hechingerreport.org/colleges-enroll-students-arent-prepared-higher-education/

Now certainly, parents might be getting diminishing returns on sending their kids to hagwon. Do they really need 4 hours instead of 2?

Bear in mind that none of us are required to know a second language to the degree that English is emphasized here. Do you really think our schools would be turning out fluent-level Korean speakers based on 2 hours of studying per week from our schools? Undoubtedly many parents would consider such extra teaching, just as many parents at home actually do send kids to SAT prep classes or supplementary classes so their kid can get into some fancy prep school or whatever.

As far as employment, that's more due to the nature of the global economy and high rates of college graduation. There's limited employment out there for great jobs and it IS competitive. But the answer to that isn't to give up and have your kid not compete- it is better that you at least tried and failed rather than just saying "Eff it, it's not worth it, my kid will probably fail anyways." and then go on to blame the system or the rich for your lack of effort and decision to party instead of study.

I mean, this is not a phenomenon unique to Korea- all across the developed world, young people are going to college more and more, and more and more are graduating and having difficulty finding employment. And can we really compare a country of 4 or 25 million and large land area and abundant natural resources vs. one that's small, 50 million, and is essentially a bunch of mountains and attribute things solely to the educational system? Take for example the United States, a lot of people are now questioning whether college is worth it- the amount of student debt, the middling employment prospects, the time spent, and so on. Is this not just another version of the hagwon ordeal? At the end of the day, colleges, jobs, etc. are all competitive.

Really, it's all a bunch of tradeoffs. For every dude in an office who wishes he had spent a few more hours playing with his friends as a kid, there's some guy serving lattes who wishes he had spent a few more hours hitting the books instead of playing Nintendo.

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2017, 02:46:43 PM »
Imagine being a dumb enough troll to think you can shit on people for teaching English in Korea while teaching English in Korea.

HS classmates of mine went to Ivy League schools and all they had to do was do well in high-level public school classes and get a good SAT score which unlike the Suneung does not reward endless cramming. They were NOT spending 6 hours every day "studying" after school. Meanwhile 0% of Koreans will get into good Korean universities based solely on public school performance and education, because the Korean public school system fails students.

I'm not shitting on everyone, only the haters. I think most of us are happy if some Korean studies hard and goes to SKY or a good US university. We're not bitter at Korea and it's people and don't endlessly complain about them or their people. If studying hard works for them and pays off, more power too em'. To the Korean people who studied at the hagwons and saw it payoff by living the American Dream, I say congratulations!

But if someone is going to shit on them and "Why are they studying" and blah blah blah, I have to say, "Hey, they did better than you, maybe you should have done what they did".

You and I know the reason they're "studying" is because the Korean public school system doesn't teach kids well enough to take Korean public school tests. Nobody is demeaning their studying, just pointing out that it's completely pointless. And then you get clueless Korean education officials upset about how poorer Korean parents aren't sending their kids to hagwons.

I think it teaches them well enough to get an average student a 'B' and a smart student could coast, just like they can around the world.

The thing is to many Korean parents, a 'B' is not good enough. Why be top 80th percentile on the college exams when you can study and become top 90th percentile? And that 10% difference matters.

Saying "Our schools are fine because this kid just had to go to school and do his homework to go to Harvard" while ignoring the MASSIVE numbers of other kids who went to class and graduated without collegiate-level skills or just failed altogether is only looking at part of the picture. Our system worked for us. How many other kids did it fail?

Offline dandred

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2017, 03:15:03 PM »
Considering that by the time students reach university, they have had 9 years of English education, it is shocking how many of the students I teach can't even string a sentence together. If this is the case in English, I wonder how bad it is in other subjects in which they have been groomed to only to take tests in?
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Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2017, 03:21:46 PM »
Considering that by the time students reach university, they have had 9 years of English education, it is shocking how many of the students I teach can't even string a sentence together. If this is the case in English, I wonder how bad it is in other subjects in which they have been groomed to only to take tests in?

As I've said before, that's how our (insert subject X) teacher feels about us when it comes to our mediocre skills in that particular subject (or hobby, say piano)

I think with us growing up with English, its a bit hard to perceive how things would be if the situation was reversed. Everyone here claims that they'd all be good at Korean and that our schools are so wonderful that everyone would speak it well. Sure.

It's a subject. Kids go in and learn it and then they want to run around and play. They can either remember their English or the stats of their favorite Pokemon card. Guess which wins?

How many of us are better acquainted with the War of the Five Kings or Arsenal's rosters 1991-2017 than we are with the French/German/Spanish we took throughout the years?

Seriously, people here seem to expect perfection out of kids and seem to be completely unaware of how their own childhood was growing up and have replaced it with some mythic concoction where they and their classmates were these perfect students who mastered everything and never misbehaved.

Online eggieguffer

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2017, 03:39:19 PM »
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it is shocking how many of the students I teach can't even string a sentence together.

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Seriously, people here seem to expect perfection out of kids

Typical DM style arguing. Do you really need me to point out the huge gulf between expecting perfection and expecting someone to be able to string a setence together?

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2017, 04:18:52 PM »

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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2017, 04:48:48 PM »
Quote
it is shocking how many of the students I teach can't even string a sentence together.

Quote
Seriously, people here seem to expect perfection out of kids

Typical DM style arguing. Do you really need me to point out the huge gulf between expecting perfection and expecting someone to be able to string a setence together?

Is he the same Klown as that steelrails idiot on Dave's?
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Re: Korean studentsí scores take tumble on PISA assessment
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2017, 06:06:44 PM »
Considering that by the time students reach university, they have had 9 years of English education, it is shocking how many of the students I teach can't even string a sentence together. If this is the case in English, I wonder how bad it is in other subjects in which they have been groomed to only to take tests in?

As I've said before, that's how our (insert subject X) teacher feels about us when it comes to our mediocre skills in that particular subject (or hobby, say piano)

I think with us growing up with English, its a bit hard to perceive how things would be if the situation was reversed. Everyone here claims that they'd all be good at Korean and that our schools are so wonderful that everyone would speak it well. Sure.

It's a subject. Kids go in and learn it and then they want to run around and play. They can either remember their English or the stats of their favorite Pokemon card. Guess which wins?

How many of us are better acquainted with the War of the Five Kings or Arsenal's rosters 1991-2017 than we are with the French/German/Spanish we took throughout the years?

Seriously, people here seem to expect perfection out of kids and seem to be completely unaware of how their own childhood was growing up and have replaced it with some mythic concoction where they and their classmates were these perfect students who mastered everything and never misbehaved.
This is a terrible comparison because none or very few of us needed to be accomplished at a foreign language to get into college or to get a job. Plus, the government has never made speaking a foreign language a national priority.

Still, I'd bet if you were a foreign language major in a top university in the US, you'd be more fluent than an English education major or the like from a SKY school. And don't overlook how many in the US who live in regions with a high Hispanic population are conversant in Spanish.