December 11, 2018, 03:07:49 PM


Author Topic: When will Trump be impeached?  (Read 196731 times)

Offline eastreef

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #620 on: June 02, 2017, 05:40:19 PM »
My final comments for a while. 

I still think that a year from now the big story – although many in the media will probably fight like crazy not to report it - is going to be the Obama surveillance and unmasking program.  Anyone want to "wager" as to whether Susan Rice takes the fifth?  She has been subpoenaed to testify before congress.  Or, will she fight the subpoena?  If you don’t like the first link below because it goes to Fox News, I included a second link – NBC News - with the same story.  BTW, look at how each news agency wrote the headline - interesting...

Quote
House Intelligence Committee sends subpoenas to intel agencies
By James Rosen Published May 31, 2017
Fox News

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/05/31/house-intelligence-committee-sends-subpoenas-to-intel-agencies.html

Three of the nation’s intelligence agencies received subpoenas Wednesday afternoon issued by the House Intelligence Committee, Fox News has confirmed, with each of the three demands for documents explicitly naming three top officials of the Obama administration: Susan Rice, who served as President Obama’s White House national security adviser; former CIA Director John Brennan; and former U.N. ambassador Samantha Power.

The three subpoenas, among a total of seven signed by panel chairman Rep. Devin Nunes (R-CA), were served on the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Central Intelligence Agency, and the National Security Agency, and all three explicitly referenced “unmasking” – a signal that the House panel is intensifying its investigation into allegations that Obama-era aides improperly demanded the “unmasking” of names of associates of President Trump that had appeared, in coded form, in classified intelligence reports, then leaked the data to news media organizations.

The other four subpoenas were issued at the behest of the committee’s ranking Democrat, Rep. Adam Schiff (D-CA), and were said to be duplicative of subpoenas already issued by the Senate Intelligence Committee, which is conducting a parallel probe.
   
 House Subpoenas Flynn, Cohen, and Unmasking Requests by Obama Trio
BY ALEX MOE AND KASIE HUNT
June 1, 2017

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/house-subpoenas-flynn-cohen-unmasking-requests-obama-trio-n766861

The House Intelligence Committee issued seven subpoenas Wednesday as part of its investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election, four of them related to the Russia probe — and three about any "unmasking" of Trump associates by Obama officials.
According to a congressional source, the three subpoenas related to unmasking were seeking information on any unmasking requests by former National Security Adviser Susan Rice, former CIA Director John Brennan, and former U.N. Ambassador Samantha Power.


       
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Online Savant

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #621 on: June 02, 2017, 05:56:14 PM »
Trump's own words were to judge him on all the spectacular things he would accomplish in his first 100 days without playing any golf.

1) He got a conservative Supreme Court Justice. A shoe-in with a Republican senate.
2) I bet his golf has improved.

Offline maximmm

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #622 on: June 09, 2017, 07:42:35 AM »
Comey's testy was insignificant - it's one of those 'he said/she said' sort of thing.

Even if you believe every word he said, the case for obstruction of justice is still very weak, since Trump never ordered him to drop the Russia investigation. 

The Russia campaign collusion investigation is still the key - and it's the only thing democrats have to get Trump out - but that investigation will take a while.  The big hope is that someone in the Trump campaign will start leaking under pressure by the FBI and/or have some real evidence on hand. 

Maybe FBI can hack his inner circle's emails?  It worked for Clinton - until she destroyed them all ;)


Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #623 on: June 09, 2017, 09:19:08 AM »
Comey threw sizzle to the Dems, staple grains to the Repubs. Both sides got something out of it.

donovan

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #624 on: June 09, 2017, 11:39:31 AM »
Keep in mind what we saw last night is only unclassified information that he was able to speak about in an open, public setting. There wasn't really too much more information that was laid out in the public hearing yesterday that wasn't already leaked (by him, in one case!) and known to the public, but you could say it had a lot more force coming from the horse's mouth.  There were several questions that he demurred on that were likely discussed in the private session with the Senate Intelligence Committee. Did he not hint that although he told Trump privately (Yes Trump, we know, 3 times...) that he was not *currently* under investigation at the time, that may no longer be true hence?  Either way, he didn't really drop any bombs and the investigations into Russian meddling in the presidential election will continue and it might take several months to a couple years to see the fallout.

Sounds like Flynn's f***ed, though.

More on the leak:

1) Trump tweets:


2) Comey sees tweet and thinks: "Oh, tapes? Great!"


3) He proceeds to leak a private memo to the press to force a special prosecutor upon the case, which will hopefully secure said tapes.

4) A special prosecutor is swiftly appointed to the case!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 11:43:11 AM by donovan »

Offline eastreef

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #625 on: June 09, 2017, 05:21:22 PM »
Could any Americans give us an 'ear to the ground' idea about just how significant Comey's testimony was yesterday?  Will this all just blow over?

For a purely “legal” opinion regarding Comey’s testimony, you can read/watch Alan Dershowitz give his legal opinion.  Dershowitz supported and voted for H. Clinton, and knows something about U.S. Constitutional law.  Some excerpts are below.

BTW, the first piece/link is completely written by Dershowitz.  In other words, if someone wants to attack the credibility of the news messenger it will be a waste of time.   If you want to go after Dershowitz’s credibility, feel free and please provide links to support your criticisms.

Quote
Alan Dershowitz: History, precedent and James Comey's opening statement show that Trump did not obstruct justice
by Alan Dershowitz, contributor | Jun 8, 2017, 9:21 AM

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/alan-dershowitz-history-precedent-and-james-comeys-opening-statement-show-that-trump-did-not-obstruct-justice/article/2625318

….Comey has also acknowledged that the president had the constitutional authority to fire him for any or no cause.

..President Trump also had the constitutional authority to order Comey to end the investigation of former national security adviser Mike Flynn...

Dershowitz: Trump Could Have Just Pardoned Flynn

http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/07/dershowitz-trump-could-have-just-pardoned-flynn-video/

Famed Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz shot down claims of obstruction of justice Wednesday, telling CNN’s Anderson Cooper that presidents have the right to start or stop any investigation.

Dershowitz said that, constitutionally, a president may direct an intelligence agent to stop an investigation. The “best proof” of that fact, he says, is that Trump could’ve easily pardoned former national security advisor Michael Flynn and the entire investigation would have been over anyway.

“Trump could have told Comey, ‘You are commanded, you are directed, to drop the prosecution against Flynn.’ The president has the right to do that,” he explained. “Remember also what the president could’ve done. He could’ve said to Comey, ‘Stop this investigation, I am now pardoning Flynn. That’s what President Bush did.”

Dershowitz cited the case of Caspar Weinberger, who was pardoned by George H.W. Bush before he could be tried in relation to the Iran-Contra scandal.

Dershowitz Interview

http://video.foxnews.com/v/5464886544001/?#sp=show-clips
           

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Offline eastreef

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #626 on: June 09, 2017, 05:35:22 PM »
My take on Comey’s testimony.

A quick comment is that Comey did what he has been doing all along, and that is: he gives a little to both sides and plays the part of being just the good guy caught in the middle. Last November the Democrats hated Comey and today they love him.  Last November many Republicans loved Comey and today many hate him.

My in-depth opinion:

1.  No president should be having private meetings with the FBI Director to talk about a legal case involving one of his staff.  Maybe, if it involved a foreign diplomat that had major international implications, but again I would recommend against one-on-one meetings.  At the most Trump might have said to Comey in such a meeting words such as: I trust that your investigation of Flynn will be honest and fair. Trump needs to remember that he is not on a NYC construction site where you may be able to put your arm around a city building inspector and do some “small” talk about things….

2.  I don’t see where Comey testified that Trump tried to obstruct justice.  Trump did a politically stupid thing, but no crime was committed.  Further, I do not see where Comey says that Trump was/is under investigation.  However, there will probably be some more to come about whether Sessions was involved in more than he previously admitted to doing. 

Quote
Politics
Full Transcript and Video: James Comey’s Testimony on Capitol Hill
By THE NEW YORK TIMESJUNE 8, 2017
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/08/us/politics/senate-hearing-transcript.html?_r=0

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/07/read-james-comeys-prepared-testimony-for-senate-intel.html
             
3.  Comey has now basically agreed with Dershowitz regarding the president’s powers over the FBI and Justice Department; therefore, apparently Comey knew back then that Trump had not committed an obstruction of justice crime. 

4. Comey leaked a private conversation with the president and that may come back to haunt him. 

5.  Much of the media is trying to completely ignore what Comey said about Obama’s Attorney General Lynch and the Clinton emails.  Is this another example of Comey giving something to both sides?

6.  The anti-Trump media will probably fabricate and cherry-pick from Comey’s testimony to keep this story going.   And, people supporting Trump will also be able to use Comey’s testimony to support Trump.  I can’t wait for Susan Rice to testify….

7. If Trump wants to implement his agenda he needs to make some adjustments now.  First, he needs to keep remembering that many in Washington - including both Republicans and Democrats – are out to get him, and much of the media is playing along.  Trump needs to play the game smarter than them if he wants to succeed.  Lastly, in other words: don’t give them any ammunition to use against you.


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Offline eastreef

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #627 on: June 10, 2017, 06:36:07 PM »


It has been awhile since I have watched Bill Maher or Bill O'Reilly.  I liked Bill Maher’s Politically Incorrect TV show.  I thought he got a raw deal when that show was basically forced off the air….

Is the episode you have linked the one where Bill Maher used language that if someone who supports Trump had used the same language such person would have been fired, and the PC elitists would have been screaming for that person's head?
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Offline Life Improvement

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #628 on: June 10, 2017, 07:01:08 PM »


Trump supporter Kanye West uses that language all the time; no one's screaming for his head.



https://genius.com/Kanye-west-all-day-lyrics

Offline maximmm

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #629 on: June 10, 2017, 07:05:14 PM »

I don’t see where Comey testified that Trump tried to obstruct justice.  Trump did a politically stupid thing, but no crime was committed.  Further, I do not see where Comey says that Trump was/is under investigation.  However, there will probably be some more to come about whether Sessions was involved in more than he previously admitted to doing. 

While the case for obstruction of justice is very weak now - to a point where it wouldn't succeed based on this testimony, the risk is still there.  There were many entities involved in the campaign, and there are many email servers that could be hacked. 

Trump foolishly said that he'd testify under oath to disprove Comey's testimony (there's no reason to disprove it - it doesn't incriminate him).  He might just do that - and if not long after that some tapes get leaked proving Comey as being correct, Trump would be looking at a perjury, which is not unlike what happened to Clinton. 

If that happens, Trump might be impeached regardless of whether he did or did not collude with Russia. 
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 07:14:30 PM by maximmm »

Offline Life Improvement

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #630 on: June 10, 2017, 07:15:51 PM »
Quote
Trump’s lawyers have been BEGGING him not to talk publicly about Comey probe. But he just offered to testify under oath to contradict Comey.

Quote
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Online Mr C

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #631 on: June 10, 2017, 10:16:25 PM »
To say that there was no obstruction of justice here is a bit premature; Mr Dershowitz aside, a number of legal scholars from Lawrence Tribe to James Madison to numerous people involved in the Watergate affair would disagree. 

When Dershowitz suggests the president can legitimately fire the FBI Director for "any" reason, that's just not so. The president may have the power, but utilizing it may be an abuse of the power, and there's the rub.   Presidential prerogative has wide policy sway--he might direct the DOJ to ignore small scale drug possession or decide to be draconian about it, for example.  That's what policy/politics means.

But he may not direct the FBI to repeatedly investigate his personal or political enemies.  He has "the power" to do so, but it is an abuse of that power.  Similarly, to request the DOJ/FBI to drop an investigation into wrongdoing by his friends or even political associates is an abuse of the power. And that abuse is exactly a "high crime or misdemeanor".

And I think it's difficult to suggest that isn't exactly what Trump was doing.  He even tried to get other officials to do it for him, the manner of their unwillingness to say so being a pretty good indication he did.  Anyway, it's all going to come out in drips and dribbles. 

Not yet mentioned in this thread is the cartoonish statements of Trump's "lawyer", whose grammar is worse than almost anyone on this board (this memoes, etc). He (and Trump) accuse Comey of perjury under oath before a Congressional committee, a very serious charge indeed.  In attempting to show Comey lied, the dude--who in the past has mostly helped Trump get away with cheating contractors out of their legitimate fees and ripping off Trump "University" dunderheads--completely got the facts wrong in his timeline of events that Comey leaked (or whistleblew) that memo about the "let this go" meeting. 

Further, the "leaked" memo information was neither classified nor privileged. It is notable that not one GOP committee member questioned the nature of the conversation.  No one said anything like Trump wouldn't act this way, this isn't the Trump I have known and loved for five months, etc.

Indeed, the "strongest" argument coming from the Republicans is that he's a neophyte who doesn't understand the way things work or the law--just you try that argument if you get involved in the legal system some day!

So here we have a seventy year old billionaire who has regularly wined and dined with politicians for decades, an Ivy League graduate, someone who is presumed to have great business acumen (any businessman knows you need savvy to work with the political forces in your area...), and who furthermore was sold by the GOP as the only solution to the problems of Washington because he understands it like no one else, being excused for his potential high crimes and misdemeanors because he is a n00b. Does that wash with you?

Let us not forget that the underlying issue here is the most serious threat to American democracy in our lifetimes (including mine, when we seventh graders watched the Watergate hearings live every day in social studies class), not whether an adversarial foreign power attempted to interfere in our free elections--it has been established they did, except to Kliu, um,  Aurata--but whether the Trump campaign may have actually colluded with them.

TBH, I see little chance of this ever resulting in impeachment, since the Republicans in Congress have repeatedly proved they don't care about the Constitution they just want zero taxes on rich donors.  There's just a glimmer there for me, as Trump, circus-peanut-headed a$$clown that he is, might accidentally do something good, but Mike Pence is actually an evil bastard. 

BTW, how's that secret plan for defeating ISIS working out?


Offline eastreef

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #632 on: June 11, 2017, 02:56:51 PM »
To say that there was no obstruction of justice here is a bit premature; Mr Dershowitz aside,

First, I don’t believe you should so easily dismiss what Alan Dershowitz has to say?

•   Are you saying that Dershowitz is not considered to have the credibility to talk about such legal issues? 
•   Or, is it because he does not support your political position?
•   Or, is it because Dershowitz is pushing a political agenda because both Trump he are devote Liberals? (lol)
•   Or, is it because Dershowitz regularly appears on CNN - a known Trump friendly news organization? (lol)   

Seriously, as he was a strong supporter of Hillary Clinton and Obama, what would be his political motivation for his current legal opinion?

Quote
Alan Morton Dershowitz is an American lawyer, jurist, and author. He is a prominent scholar on United States constitutional law and criminal law, and a leading defender of civil liberties. He spent most of his career at Harvard Law School where in 1967, at the age of 28, he became the youngest full professor of law in its history. He is now a regular CNN contributor and political analyst.

In 2012, he strongly supported Barack Obama's re-election, writing, "President Obama has earned my vote on the basis of his excellent judicial appointments, his consensus-building foreign policy and the improvements he has brought about in the disastrous economy he inherited."

Dershowitz has been described by Newsweek as America's "most peripatetic civil liberties lawyer and one of its most distinguished defenders of individual rights

As a criminal appellate lawyer, he has won 13 of the 15 murder and attempted murder cases he has handled

A political liberal, he is the author of a number of books about politics and law...

Dershowitz is a strong supporter of gun control.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Dershowitz
                     
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Offline eastreef

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #633 on: June 11, 2017, 03:11:56 PM »
a number of legal scholars from Lawrence Tribe to James Madison to numerous people involved in the Watergate affair would disagree. 

Regarding Tribe, I believe it is much easier to make a strong case that Dershowitz is providing an unbiased legal view than Tribe.  Dershowitz supported Obama and H. Clinton.  Tribe has been very publically extremely anti-Trump for a very long time; including before the election and before Trump’s inauguration. He called for Trump's impeachment only eight days after the inauguration....

Is he like many of the “reporters” who are so obsessed with their hatred of Trump, along with the fact that their rightful heir, successor to Obama, was not coronated inaugurated, that they cannot be objective? But now I digress. 

I have read many of Tribe’s pieces and to me they sound more like political opinion pieces than unbiased legal opinions.  Below are just a few examples of Tribe’s opinions/statements, including an article by Tribe calling for impeachment and an article rebutting Tribe.

Quote
Laurence Tribe‏ Verified account @tribelaw 28 Jul 2016

Trump's "jokes" inviting an adversary to wage cyberwar against the U.S. appear to violate the Logan Act and might even constitute treason.
9:35 AM - 28 Jul 2016 from Cambridge, MA
https://twitter.com/tribelaw/status/758775526555287552

Law Prof Tells Joy Reid That Trump Thinks He’s a ‘Babe Magnet’ But He’s Really an ‘Emoluments Magnet’
by Justin Baragona | 2:38 pm, December 4th, 2016

http://www.mediaite.com/online/law-prof-tells-joy-reid-that-trump-thinks-hes-a-babe-magnet-but-hes-really-an-emoluments-magnet/

During an appearance on MSNBC’s AM Joy, noted constitutional law professor Laurence Tribe took a shot at President-elect Donald Trump regarding his narcissism........

Laurence Tribe‏Verified account Retweets 9,892
•   Laurence Tribe
•   ✔ @tribelaw
•   Trump must be impeached for abusing his power and shredding the Constitution more monstrously than any other President in American history.
•   5:17 PM - 28 Jan 2017
https://twitter.com/tribelaw/status/825498030942121984

Law Professor Sues Trump for Alleged Constitutional Violations

By JAMIE D. HALPER, CRIMSON STAFF WRITER January 25, 2017

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2017/1/25/lawrence-tribe-sues-trump/

Harvard Law School professor Laurence H. Tribe has joined a legal team suing President Donald Trump, arguing that Trump’s ownership of the Trump Organization violates a clause of the United States Constitution….

Many Harvard students, professors, and alumni have vocally opposed Trump and his administration. Earlier this month, 16 Harvard Law professors, including Tribe, signed a letter opposing U.S. Senator Jeff Sessions’s nomination as United States attorney general.

Laurence Tribe‏Verified account @tribelaw Jun 9
What it means, @charlie_savage, is that Trump has a prepubescent urinary obsession. And is desperate to cut Comey down to his own size.

Laurence Tribe‏Verified account @tribelaw Jun 9
More
Laurence Tribe Retweeted Seth Abramson
Yet another piece of evidence that Putin is holding something yuuge over Trump's head. This is no mere bromance.

https://twitter.com/tribelaw?lang=en

Trump Must Be Impeached. Here’s why.
By Laurence H. Tribe By Laurence H. Tribe
Opinions
May 13

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trump-must-be-impeached-heres-why/2017/05/13/82ce2ea4-374d-11e7-b4ee-434b6d506b37_story.html?utm_term=.883f2ee6f43b#comments


Harvard Law Professor Wrongfully Calls for Trump Impeachment
Klein, a Harvard Law school alumnus and practicing attorney

http://www.newsmax.com/JosephKlein/laurence-tribe-harvard-trump-impeachment/2017/05/15/id/790262/








               
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Offline eastreef

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #634 on: June 11, 2017, 03:32:46 PM »

When Dershowitz suggests the president can legitimately fire the FBI Director for "any" reason, that's just not so. The president may have the power, but utilizing it may be an abuse of the power, and there's the rub. 

The president not only has complete authority to fire the Director of the FBI, but the president does not have to give any reason on why he fired the Director.  If you have ever held an “at will” position you will better understand this.  When I worked as a department head of a county department in Arizona I worked at the will of the Board of Supervisors.  The Board could fire me anytime they wanted to for any reason.

President Bill Clinton fired the FBI Director.  Are you saying that President Clinton did not have authority to take this action?

Quote
  May 9, 2017, 3:34 p.m.
The last president to fire an FBI director? Bill Clinton

http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-washington-updates-last-fbi-director-to-get-fired-before-1494368709-htmlstory.html

In 1993, President Clinton ousted William Sessions as FBI director after Sessions refused to voluntarily step down amid ethical concerns. It was the first and only time to happen in U.S. history……                                   

At any given time the president can fire such people as the Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, the Attorney General and the FBI Director - who works under the Attorney General.  The “checks and balances” come into play in that the senate must confirm someone nominated by the President to be the Secretary of State, Attorney General or Director of the FBI Director……

I can provide many links supporting what I have said but in the interest of time and space I will use just a few, including a Supreme Court case.

Quote
CAN PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP FIRE FBI DIRECTOR JAMES COMEY?

BY MAX KUTNER ON 5/4/17 AT 12:40 PM

http://www.newsweek.com/can-president-fire-fbi-director-trump-comey-594716
   
The president nominates the FBI director, and the Senate confirms the nomination. The director serves within the Department of Justice, under the attorney general. He or she also reports to the director of national intelligence.

The president can also fire the FBI director, even without a stated reason for doing so. “There are no statutory conditions on the president’s authority to remove the FBI director,” the Congressional Research Service wrote in a 2014 report. The director is “an at-will employee,” says Scott Bomboy of the National Constitution Center, meaning “he or she will serve at the will of the president.” Bomboy points to the Constitution’s “Advice and Consent” clause, which grants the president power to hire people to work for the executive branch, with congressional approval. “Once that person’s approved, it’s really up to the president as the head of the executive branch to determine their employment status,” he says.
     

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitary_executive_theory

For example, in the 1926 case of Myers v. United States, the United States Supreme Court decided that the President has the exclusive power to remove executive branch officials, and does not need the approval of the Senate or any other legislative body.
Article Two of the United States Constitution establishes the executive branch of the federal government, which carries out and enforces federal laws. It includes the President, the Vice President, the Cabinet, executive departments, independent agencies, and other boards, commissions, and committees.

As head of the executive branch, the president appoints the top officials for all federal agencies. These positions are listed in the Plum Book which outlines more than seven thousand appointive positions in the government.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Two_of_the_United_States_Constitution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_of_the_President_of_the_United_States
 
Now, it does appear that once an Independent Counsel is appointed to investigate whether a crime has been committed by a member of the executive branch that the president has no or very limited power to direct what the independent counsel may or may not do, but Comey was not an independent counsel.  This is why all presidents do not like independent counsels because the president has no control over them like they do over Executive Branch people that the president appoints.  Mueller has now been appointed as an independent counsel.

Quote
Held. No. The Court of Appeals, which invalidated the Act, is reversed.

There’s no separation of powers problem with regard to the Act because the statute (1) appropriately puts the removal power in the hands of the Executive Branch: an independent counsel may only be removed by the Attorney General for good cause and (2) does not impermissibly interfere with the functions of the Executive Branch.

http://www.casebriefs.com/blog/law/constitutional-law/constitutional-law-keyed-to-stone/the-distribution-of-national-powers/morrison-v-olson-2/2/
https://lawfareblog.com/view-supreme-court-alan-dershowitz-wrong-about-powers-president                           

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Offline Aurata

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #635 on: June 11, 2017, 03:43:06 PM »
Its all too stupid for words.

Life in america must be really boring if all people can do is invent absolute nonsense out of thin air and contrive it into headlines. American politics is like a sewing circle at a teenagers gossip party. Its infantile.


You people don't seem to live in reality. Don't you have real, vital lives to get on with? kids to look after, animals to take care of, fences to mend?

Are there no real issues in the country for the media to focus on? Crime? pollution? crop yields?

Maybe this is just a problem of first world societies. They become idle silly-mongerers.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 03:51:19 PM by Aurata »
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Offline eastreef

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #636 on: June 11, 2017, 04:00:58 PM »

But he may not direct the FBI to repeatedly investigate his personal or political enemies.  He has "the power" to do so, but it is an abuse of that power.  Similarly, to request the DOJ/FBI to drop an investigation into wrongdoing by his friends or even political associates is an abuse of the power. And that abuse is exactly a "high crime or misdemeanor".

For abuse of power. 

Please provide a legal definition of “abuse” as it relates to the president of the United States and the act of committing a high crime or misdemeanor, or any crime.  You mention that a president cannot direct the FBI to investigate his political enemies but I am not aware of where Trump has been accused of doing this.  If he has, please provide a link.  Now, if we want to start talking about Obama and the IRS targeting people, then we need to start a different thread.

I can cite numerous times throughout the history of the U.S. where presidents have been accused of abusing their power, and such presidents were not impeached and/or charged with a high crime or misdemeanor.

Now, I can understand the argument that by Trump meeting one on one with Comey and talking about Flynn that Trump was using/abusing his office, but I still don’t see where an actual crime has been committed.  Remember, Trump can pardon Flynn or anyone he wants to and no one can do anything about it.  Further, once a person is pardoned any investigation stops.

Regarding impeachment, it is important to remember that impeachment is basically a political process and not necessarily a legal process.  There is no Supreme Court review if a president is impeached and convicted.  Theoretically, a president can be impeached if he kicks his dog or eats chocolate ice cream on Sunday.

In 1998, a Republican controlled House thought it was in their political interest to impeach Clinton.  A Republican controlled senate either actually looked at the evidence and/or decided it was not in their political interest to convict Clinton. 

Further, the House charge of obstruction of justice against Clinton was based basically on the House’s accusation that Clinton tried to get Monica Lewinsky to file a false affidavit.  A charge of abuse of power against Clinton did not pass the Republican House.

Again, my question remains as to what really is a legal definition of a presidential abuse of power in relation to committing a high crime or misdemeanor?  I’m not talking about a “political” definition, but a criminal definition.

The following are just a few examples of where previous presidents have been accused of abusing their power:

•   Did Lincoln abuse his power when he suspended the right of habeas corpus?  The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court said he had, but Lincoln completely ignored him.  Lincoln was not impeached or arrested or charged with a high crime or misdemeanor.  Five years later the Supreme Court ruled that only Congress can suspend habeas corpus.
•   Did FDR abuse his power when he signed an executive order creating internment camps in the U.S. for Asians (e.g. Japanese)? Some people thought he did, but a few years later the Supreme Court said he did not. 
•   Did Obama abuse his power when he tried to stop illegal immigrants from being deported? Many feel his executive order was an abuse of power and the Supreme Court deadlocked on the issue.
•   Did Nixon abuse his power when he sent U.S. troops into Cambodia? Many, many people at the time thought he had (remember Kent State?).  He was never impeached or charged with a high crime or misdemeanor for this action.
•   Did Reagan abuse his power when he fired 11,000 air traffic controllers?  The air traffic controllers thought he had but not congress and the courts.

I can go on and on……  Please, before you bring up Watergate, please read what Nixon was actually being accused of doing during impeachment hearings.  Also, remember that Nixon resigned before he was impeached and because Ford pardoned him, which I agreed with, all investigations of Nixon had to stop. 

All this talk of Trump's criminal acts reminds me of what Beria use to say: “Show me the man, and I’ll show you the crime.”   

However, I do agree that Trump had better make some adjustments and start concentrating on health care, tax reform, immigration and foreign policy or…….





“All of this has happened before, and will happen again.”

Offline Life Improvement

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #637 on: June 11, 2017, 04:05:08 PM »
President Bill Clinton fired the FBI Director.  Are you saying that President Clinton did not have authority to take this action?

Quote
  May 9, 2017, 3:34 p.m.
The last president to fire an FBI director? Bill Clinton

http://www.latimes.com/politics/washington/la-na-essential-washington-updates-last-fbi-director-to-get-fired-before-1494368709-htmlstory.html

In 1993, President Clinton ousted William Sessions as FBI director after Sessions refused to voluntarily step down amid ethical concerns. It was the first and only time to happen in U.S. history……                                   

Sessions’ ethics came into question just before then-President-elect Bill Clinton was inaugurated. Sessions was accused of improperly using an FBI plane to visit his family as well as reportedly installing a security fence around his home on the government’s dime. A Justice Department report found that Sessions had avoided paying taxes on the use of his FBI limousine for his daily commute.

"I have concluded that the director has exhibited a serious deficiency in judgment involving matters contained in the report and that he does not command the respect and confidence needed to lead the bureau and the law enforcement community in addressing the many issues facing law enforcement today," then-Attorney General Janet Reno wrote in a letter to then-President Clinton.

Sessions maintained he had not done anything wrong and refused to leave amid calls for his resignation.

Bill Clinton ultimately fired Sessions on July 19, 1993.

"We cannot have a leadership vacuum at an agency as important to the United States as the FBI," Clinton said at a White House press conference after the dismissal. "It is time that this difficult chapter in the agency's history is brought to a close."



Offline Life Improvement

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #638 on: June 11, 2017, 04:06:00 PM »
The only other time in history an FBI director was fired, it was under dramatically different circumstances.

In 1993, Bill Clinton became the first US president to dismiss the head of the bureau. He did so after the Department of Justice produced a 161-page internal report with sworn testimony from more than 100 FBI agents citing the numerous and severe ethical failures of its director, William Sessions.

http://www.businessinsider.com/last-fbi-director-fired-bill-clinton-william-sessions-2017-5

Offline eastreef

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #639 on: June 11, 2017, 04:15:42 PM »





Let us not forget that the underlying issue here is the most serious threat to American democracy in our lifetimes (including mine, when we seventh graders watched the Watergate hearings live every day in social studies class), not whether an adversarial foreign power attempted to interfere in our free elections--it has been established they did, except to Kliu, um,  Aurata--but whether the Trump campaign may have actually colluded with them.

Collusion. 

Please, please provide a link that shows the collusion between Trump and the “Russians.”  I have done a lot of reading on this subject and I cannot find it.  And, as I have asked many times before, with all the media, many of whom hate Trump, being involved in this why haven’t they discovered the evidence?

Furthermore, with the “deep state” being anti-Trump and leaking like a sieve why haven’t they leaked evidence against Trump?  The best they could do was leak about Flynn?????   Are you telling me that if the people who leaked about Flynn had evidence against Trump that they would not have leaked it?  That they only really wanted to get Flynn?????

How about Susan Rice? She has repeatedly shown that she is a Democratic political hack and she was involved in the Trump surveillance, although in typically Susan Rice fashion she first denied it.  Do you really think if she had seen any evidence that could be used to harm the Trump campaign that she would not have made sure that it was leaked to her compadres at the NYT, or CNN or the Washington Post?

I repeat my challenge: anyone want to state now that Susan Rice will not take the fifth and/or fight her subpoena to testify?

“All of this has happened before, and will happen again.”