December 13, 2018, 06:52:50 AM


Ohmyzip.com From US To Korea - $7.50 (LB)
[SHOP US, SHIP KOREA] From $7.50 (1LB) + $1.74 per pound only! Use the Ohmyzip U.S. a tax-free state address as your shipping address at checkout. Sign up now to get a 10% off coupon on shipping. <Freight Forwarding Service / Courier Service>
http://www.ohmyzip.com/

Author Topic: When will Trump be impeached?  (Read 197872 times)

Online Life Improvement

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2970
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #280 on: March 15, 2017, 04:25:48 PM »
For those who say that other Presidents have released their tax returns, my question is: What did these other Presidents do to revise the tax code and eliminate special tax breaks for special people/groups?

Many Dems worked to increase taxes on the upper 1%, in effect giving themselves a tax raise. Republicans the opposite.

Trumps tax returns would most likely expose how little he donated to charity and how his wealth had been exaggerated. That's why he's keeping the information secret. Why else would  he?

Offline Mr.DeMartino

  • Waygook Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 5780
  • Gender: Male
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #281 on: March 16, 2017, 09:29:50 AM »
For those who say that other Presidents have released their tax returns, my question is: What did these other Presidents do to revise the tax code and eliminate special tax breaks for special people/groups?

Many Dems worked to increase taxes on the upper 1%, in effect giving themselves a tax raise. Republicans the opposite.

Trumps tax returns would most likely expose how little he donated to charity and how his wealth had been exaggerated. That's why he's keeping the information secret. Why else would  he?

If I'm not mistaken, taxes reflect income and business expenses. They do not necessarily reflect net worth and thus could not say whether his wealth had been exaggerated. It would reflect his charitable donations though.

I'm starting to suspect this might be a long con by Trump. He did it with birtherism. He might be doing it here.

Offline Mr C

  • Hero of Waygookistan
  • *****
  • Posts: 1509
  • Gender: Male
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #282 on: March 16, 2017, 09:39:11 AM »
If Trump had done anything wrong, the IRS would have filed tax evasion charges.

While there might be something embarrassing about them, there is nothing criminal and he is under no legal obligation to reveal them.
No legal obligation, though he earlier promised he would.

I think that Trump himself leaked this form, for a few reasons, mostly to distract from the Russia/wiretap/healthcare disasters currently roiling the WH.

Why 2005? There's nothing really outrageous or even very noteworthy about this tax filing.  And that is why, IMO.  It's the last time his taxes don't plainly illustrate what a liar he is.

Offline eastreef

  • Super Waygook
  • ***
  • Posts: 271
  • Gender: Male
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #283 on: March 16, 2017, 11:46:44 AM »
For those who say that other Presidents have released their tax returns, my question is: What did these other Presidents do to revise the tax code and eliminate special tax breaks for special people/groups?

Many Dems worked to increase taxes on the upper 1%, in effect giving themselves a tax raise. Republicans the opposite.

Trumps tax returns would most likely expose how little he donated to charity and how his wealth had been exaggerated. That's why he's keeping the information secret. Why else would  he?

If I'm not mistaken, taxes reflect income and business expenses. They do not necessarily reflect net worth and thus could not say whether his wealth had been exaggerated. It would reflect his charitable donations though.

I'm starting to suspect this might be a long con by Trump. He did it with birtherism. He might be doing it here.

Agree with Mr. DeMartino.  I’m not a tax expert, but based on my tax filing experience your personal tax return basically shows your income for that particular tax year.   
 
If you claim the charitable deduction the personal tax return will show that; however, I do not see where a personal tax return form requires you to show your net worth for that year.  For example:

1.  Money in the bank.  The tax return would show any taxable interest you earned that year, but it would not show how much total money you have deposited in various bank accounts (e.g. standard savings, CD’s…….)
2.  IRAs.  For a standard IRA the return would show how much money you contributed that year, but it would not show the total value of you IRAs
3.  Stock investments. The return would show stock capital gains or losses if you sold stock that year, and it would show taxable stock dividends that you were paid that year, but it would not show how much total money you have invested in stocks or mutual funds.
4.  House.  The return might show a capital gain if you sold your house that year, and it would show mortgage interest you paid that year if you claim the mortgage deduction; however, if you did not sell your house it would not show the current value of your house.

IMHO, charitable donations is an area where many Americans might try to stretch the truth.  For example, when you donate to Goodwill and they give you that blank Goodwill donation form to fill out on your own, do regular hard-working middle class Americans ever exaggerate what they donated and/or how much it was really worth?

I still think that the elitists are screaming for Trump’s tax returns because: (1) They still do not accept/recognize why Trump won; (2) They are having a hard time challenging him on real issues; and (3) They think it helps them if they keep the headlines focused on trivial issues like Trump did not pay taxes; even if all he did was take all the deductions that he could find just like every other American does when filing taxes……  It’s like MSNBC and the “Russians,” that’s all they can talk about.  Listening to them it sounds like there were KGB, FSB, SVR…… agents operating in every polling booth in America…..

Furthermore, I also think that Trump likes for them to stay focused on issues like his taxes.  For example: (1) In the long run it means nothing; (2) He can always burn them in the future, as he knows what the returns say, and if nothing is illegal about them he can release them when the timing is right for him; and (3) He goes about implementing his agenda while they stay focused on his taxes….


“All of this has happened before, and will happen again.”

Offline Mr.DeMartino

  • Waygook Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 5780
  • Gender: Male
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #284 on: March 16, 2017, 02:13:25 PM »

No, we've got used to the reality show celebrity that inhabits the Oval Office now. 

You can add...

(4) That Trump can't make coherent, fair foreign policy because of the extent of his business interests.  He's already shown once already with his ridiculous travel ban that he forgot Turkey, Egypt and most of all, Saudi Arabia, off his list, as he has business interests in those countries. 

He also interfered in his daughter's business by tweet his disapproval about Nordstrom canceling Ivanka's brand.

Do you really want Trump and his mates to **** around with parts of the hallowed American constitution?  If yes, then fine.

Le sigh. The travel ban list includes a bunch of countries that are in chaos and/or failed regimes, with the exception of Iran which has been labeled a state sponsor of terror by previous administrations going back to Jimmy Carter and whom we don't have formal diplomatic relations with. Turkey is a member of NATO and has done things like host nuclear missiles and let us use their bases for military missions. Saudi Arabia has a stable government, purchases arms from us, and cooperates to some extent on intelligence. Egypt's regime is somewhat unstable, but they have a long history of cooperation. This is a far cry from Libya, Sudan, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen.

Apparently reflexive anti-Trumpers are too stupid and lack the critical thinking skills to understand what is involved in the travel ban list. They made up their mind first, then try to get the facts to fit it. 

I don't think most Americans give a shit that Trump tweeted about his own daughter's clothing line. Most Americans aren't insane and recognize family loyalty.

Go after Trump for the health care plan. Go after him for environmental rollbacks. Go after him for his tax plan. But enough of taking minor shit and exaggerating it beyond all belief, being reflexively obstructive, and the hysteria of how we're all doomed.

It didn't work during the election, it's not going to work in the future.

Offline Mr.DeMartino

  • Waygook Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 5780
  • Gender: Male
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #285 on: March 16, 2017, 02:15:44 PM »
Also, I love how everyone says Trump is insane/stupid and that the left is so brilliant, but he utterly played Rachel Maddow. And did so with ease. Get with reality- he isn't insane and he isn't stupid. In fact, many anti-Trumpers may be a bit off their rocker and not perceiving reality (Hitler! Russia everywhere!) and aren't as smart as they think they are.

Offline Savant

  • Hero of Waygookistan
  • *****
  • Posts: 1694
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #286 on: March 16, 2017, 02:57:25 PM »
Also, I love how everyone says Trump is insane/stupid and that the left is so brilliant, but he utterly played Rachel Maddow. And did so with ease. Get with reality- he isn't insane and he isn't stupid. In fact, many anti-Trumpers may be a bit off their rocker and not perceiving reality (Hitler! Russia everywhere!) and aren't as smart as they think they are.

Rachel Maddow was on a roll with her Russian stuff. I think Trump thought that the tax leak would change the media headlines but it worked for only one day and we are now back to looking at his wiretapping allegations [that he continues to put out there], RyanCare and the latest travel ban.

Trump isn't stupid but he is a spoiled man-child.

Offline SaintsCanada

  • Super Waygook
  • ***
  • Posts: 370
  • Gender: Male
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #287 on: March 16, 2017, 06:21:54 PM »
If only the superpower of the universe could rewind the clock a bit to when their politics was more brainy and less juvenile. A time when the whole democratic world "respected" Americans and their politics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQdDiqEmxOg

Offline SaintsCanada

  • Super Waygook
  • ***
  • Posts: 370
  • Gender: Male
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #288 on: March 16, 2017, 06:26:22 PM »
But more seriously, here are some conservative Republicans debating immigration before U.S. politics went into the toilet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixi9_cciy8w

Online hippo

  • Veteran
  • **
  • Posts: 146
  • Gender: Male
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #289 on: March 16, 2017, 07:00:37 PM »
It amazes me how some Americans act so outrageously appalled about someone else’s taxes, such as Trump’s, when we all do basically the same thing when it comes to taxes.  In addition, we are all responsible for the tax code that allows us to do these things. 

1.  Both the establishment Democrats (Ds) and establishment Republicans (Rs) are responsible for how the enormous and very complicated tax code has been written.

Quote
http://www.trygve.com/taxcode.html
By the way, if you go to the US Government Printing Office ( www.gpo.gov ), you can order a complete set of Title 26 of the US Code of Federal Regulations (that's the part written by the IRS), all twenty volumes of it, at the bargain price of $974, shipping included.

According to the US Government Printing Office, it's 13,458 pages in total. The full text of Title 26 of the United States Code (the part written by Congress--available for an additional $179) is a mere 3,387 printed pages, bringing the adjusted gross page count to 16,845.
         

2.  No one can take tax credits or deductions unless the code allows it, and both the Ds and the Rs have given their special interest groups special tax breaks under the code.

3.  Would trade groups, corporations, special interest groups, unions……..spend so much money on lobbying regarding taxes if they did not expect a return on their investment?  From Hollywood to Exxon……..

I am currently doing my U.S. taxes and I plan to take the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion, along with any other deduction that I can find.  For the other Americans posting on this board and working overseas, do you plan on taking the Foreign Income Exclusion, or will you be a socially responsible person and not claim it so you can pay U.S. taxes?  Will you take the standard deduction, or if you are eligible will you itemize your deductions?  If you have a mortgage in the U.S. do you plan on taking the interest deduction?  Every American I know takes all the deductions and credits they can find.
 
And yes, the tax code has been written by the Ds and Rs so that people who make a great deal of money seem to find it easier to pay less in taxes.  People with lots of money spend lots of money on bribes lobbying and campaign contributions; therefore, the tax code favors these people.

For those who say that other Presidents have released their tax returns, my question is: What did these other Presidents do to revise the tax code and eliminate special tax breaks for special people/groups?
 
For those Americans working overseas, I have a final question:

If a revised tax code was introduced to Congress that many, many people said was very “equitable”, and required the “rich” to pay their “fair” share, but also required Americans working overseas to give up the Foreign Income Exclusion, would you support this revised tax code?

This is way too broad.  I do not pay taxes because I have not lived in the US for almost a decade.  I don't think this is being socially irresponsible.  I have to pay them in Korea.

There's a difference between an Korean EFL  teacher or a person in another low status position taking deductions and a corporation or industry taking tax deductions.  There's no Korean EFL lobby in DC to bribe Congress with or any way to similarly schmooze with powerful people.  I have virtually no power in the political system while larger entities (some of which you named)  can change the law to create new  deductions, complicated regulations, and expensive lawyers.

I--and others in my socioeconomic position--have basically no input in to how law works.  We can just pick between two candidates/contestants periodically.  This is the "democratic" process now.  I am encouraged by the level of political protest compared to previous eras given how early it is in the Trump candidacy and given how the Democratic Party has become a McCarthyist Party.

Offline eastreef

  • Super Waygook
  • ***
  • Posts: 271
  • Gender: Male
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #290 on: March 17, 2017, 07:37:51 AM »
It amazes me how some Americans act so outrageously appalled about someone else’s taxes, such as Trump’s, when we all do basically the same thing when it comes to taxes.  In addition, we are all responsible for the tax code that allows us to do these things. 

1.  Both the establishment Democrats (Ds) and establishment Republicans (Rs) are responsible for how the enormous and very complicated tax code has been written.

Quote
http://www.trygve.com/taxcode.html
By the way, if you go to the US Government Printing Office ( www.gpo.gov ), you can order a complete set of Title 26 of the US Code of Federal Regulations (that's the part written by the IRS), all twenty volumes of it, at the bargain price of $974, shipping included.

According to the US Government Printing Office, it's 13,458 pages in total. The full text of Title 26 of the United States Code (the part written by Congress--available for an additional $179) is a mere 3,387 printed pages, bringing the adjusted gross page count to 16,845.
         

2.  No one can take tax credits or deductions unless the code allows it, and both the Ds and the Rs have given their special interest groups special tax breaks under the code.

3.  Would trade groups, corporations, special interest groups, unions……..spend so much money on lobbying regarding taxes if they did not expect a return on their investment?  From Hollywood to Exxon……..

I am currently doing my U.S. taxes and I plan to take the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion, along with any other deduction that I can find.  For the other Americans posting on this board and working overseas, do you plan on taking the Foreign Income Exclusion, or will you be a socially responsible person and not claim it so you can pay U.S. taxes?  Will you take the standard deduction, or if you are eligible will you itemize your deductions?  If you have a mortgage in the U.S. do you plan on taking the interest deduction?  Every American I know takes all the deductions and credits they can find.
 
And yes, the tax code has been written by the Ds and Rs so that people who make a great deal of money seem to find it easier to pay less in taxes.  People with lots of money spend lots of money on bribes lobbying and campaign contributions; therefore, the tax code favors these people.

For those who say that other Presidents have released their tax returns, my question is: What did these other Presidents do to revise the tax code and eliminate special tax breaks for special people/groups?
 
For those Americans working overseas, I have a final question:

If a revised tax code was introduced to Congress that many, many people said was very “equitable”, and required the “rich” to pay their “fair” share, but also required Americans working overseas to give up the Foreign Income Exclusion, would you support this revised tax code?

This is way too broad.  I do not pay taxes because I have not lived in the US for almost a decade.  I don't think this is being socially irresponsible.  I have to pay them in Korea.

There's a difference between an Korean EFL  teacher or a person in another low status position taking deductions and a corporation or industry taking tax deductions.  There's no Korean EFL lobby in DC to bribe Congress with or any way to similarly schmooze with powerful people.  I have virtually no power in the political system while larger entities (some of which you named)  can change the law to create new  deductions, complicated regulations, and expensive lawyers.

I--and others in my socioeconomic position--have basically no input in to how law works.  We can just pick between two candidates/contestants periodically.  This is the "democratic" process now.  I am encouraged by the level of political protest compared to previous eras given how early it is in the Trump candidacy and given how the Democratic Party has become a McCarthyist Party.

One of my points was that every American I know takes all the deductions they can; therefore, how can they criticize someone else for taking deductions…..

You don’t have to worry about not having a Korean GET lobbying group to keep the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion.  The big players are the ones that do the lobbying to keep it in place.  Companies like Halliburton, Exxon……that have U.S. workers outside the U.S. 

I previously worked outside the U.S. for a very large U.S. defense contractor, and believe me the other U.S. workers, many whose income was well above the Foreign Income Exclusion threshold, were very active when there were talks back in the early 2000’s about eliminating or reducing the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion.


“All of this has happened before, and will happen again.”

Offline thunderlips

  • Hero of Waygookistan
  • *****
  • Posts: 1310
  • Gender: Male
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #291 on: March 17, 2017, 09:36:49 AM »
It amazes me how some Americans act so outrageously appalled about someone else’s taxes, such as Trump’s, when we all do basically the same thing when it comes to taxes.  In addition, we are all responsible for the tax code that allows us to do these things. 

1.  Both the establishment Democrats (Ds) and establishment Republicans (Rs) are responsible for how the enormous and very complicated tax code has been written.

Quote
http://www.trygve.com/taxcode.html
By the way, if you go to the US Government Printing Office ( www.gpo.gov ), you can order a complete set of Title 26 of the US Code of Federal Regulations (that's the part written by the IRS), all twenty volumes of it, at the bargain price of $974, shipping included.

According to the US Government Printing Office, it's 13,458 pages in total. The full text of Title 26 of the United States Code (the part written by Congress--available for an additional $179) is a mere 3,387 printed pages, bringing the adjusted gross page count to 16,845.
         

2.  No one can take tax credits or deductions unless the code allows it, and both the Ds and the Rs have given their special interest groups special tax breaks under the code.

3.  Would trade groups, corporations, special interest groups, unions……..spend so much money on lobbying regarding taxes if they did not expect a return on their investment?  From Hollywood to Exxon……..

I am currently doing my U.S. taxes and I plan to take the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion, along with any other deduction that I can find.  For the other Americans posting on this board and working overseas, do you plan on taking the Foreign Income Exclusion, or will you be a socially responsible person and not claim it so you can pay U.S. taxes?  Will you take the standard deduction, or if you are eligible will you itemize your deductions?  If you have a mortgage in the U.S. do you plan on taking the interest deduction?  Every American I know takes all the deductions and credits they can find.
 
And yes, the tax code has been written by the Ds and Rs so that people who make a great deal of money seem to find it easier to pay less in taxes.  People with lots of money spend lots of money on bribes lobbying and campaign contributions; therefore, the tax code favors these people.

For those who say that other Presidents have released their tax returns, my question is: What did these other Presidents do to revise the tax code and eliminate special tax breaks for special people/groups?
 
For those Americans working overseas, I have a final question:

If a revised tax code was introduced to Congress that many, many people said was very “equitable”, and required the “rich” to pay their “fair” share, but also required Americans working overseas to give up the Foreign Income Exclusion, would you support this revised tax code?

Yes, if it was truly equitable. The problem as you have pointed out is the complexity and unfair taxing of low to middle wage earners, i.e percent of income taxed and thresholds on Social Security. 

Also while we are dreaming I would like to see citizens united overturned and corporations going back to being inanimate objects.  ;D



https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/03/15/us/politics/trump-budget-proposal.html
Quote
Defense

$574 billion
2018 PROPOSAL
⬆︎+$52.3 billion
CHANGE FROM 2017
⬆︎+10%
PCT. CHANGE
It’s unclear exactly how all of the increases would be distributed. Some of the money would go to accelerating the fight against the Islamic State, and to pay for more warships and fighter jets.

President Trump will face difficulty getting this proposal through Congress, where the threat of automatic spending cuts known as sequestration has acted as a brake on military spending. And many American military officials — the defense secretary included — have denounced efforts to cut foreign aid in favor of more defense spending. Many foreign aid programs, those officials say, contribute to global stability and are seen as important in helping avoid future conflicts.
Which party are the chicken hawks again?? Probably both.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 09:40:48 AM by thunderlips »

Offline eastreef

  • Super Waygook
  • ***
  • Posts: 271
  • Gender: Male
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #292 on: March 17, 2017, 10:05:08 AM »
It amazes me how some Americans act so outrageously appalled about someone else’s taxes, such as Trump’s, when we all do basically the same thing when it comes to taxes.  In addition, we are all responsible for the tax code that allows us to do these things. 

1.  Both the establishment Democrats (Ds) and establishment Republicans (Rs) are responsible for how the enormous and very complicated tax code has been written.

Quote
http://www.trygve.com/taxcode.html
By the way, if you go to the US Government Printing Office ( www.gpo.gov ), you can order a complete set of Title 26 of the US Code of Federal Regulations (that's the part written by the IRS), all twenty volumes of it, at the bargain price of $974, shipping included.

According to the US Government Printing Office, it's 13,458 pages in total. The full text of Title 26 of the United States Code (the part written by Congress--available for an additional $179) is a mere 3,387 printed pages, bringing the adjusted gross page count to 16,845.
         

2.  No one can take tax credits or deductions unless the code allows it, and both the Ds and the Rs have given their special interest groups special tax breaks under the code.

3.  Would trade groups, corporations, special interest groups, unions……..spend so much money on lobbying regarding taxes if they did not expect a return on their investment?  From Hollywood to Exxon……..

I am currently doing my U.S. taxes and I plan to take the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion, along with any other deduction that I can find.  For the other Americans posting on this board and working overseas, do you plan on taking the Foreign Income Exclusion, or will you be a socially responsible person and not claim it so you can pay U.S. taxes?  Will you take the standard deduction, or if you are eligible will you itemize your deductions?  If you have a mortgage in the U.S. do you plan on taking the interest deduction?  Every American I know takes all the deductions and credits they can find.
 
And yes, the tax code has been written by the Ds and Rs so that people who make a great deal of money seem to find it easier to pay less in taxes.  People with lots of money spend lots of money on bribes lobbying and campaign contributions; therefore, the tax code favors these people.

For those who say that other Presidents have released their tax returns, my question is: What did these other Presidents do to revise the tax code and eliminate special tax breaks for special people/groups?
 
For those Americans working overseas, I have a final question:

If a revised tax code was introduced to Congress that many, many people said was very “equitable”, and required the “rich” to pay their “fair” share, but also required Americans working overseas to give up the Foreign Income Exclusion, would you support this revised tax code?

Yes, if it was truly equitable. The problem as you have pointed out is the complexity and unfair taxing of low to middle wage earners, i.e percent of income taxed and thresholds on Social Security. 

Also while we are dreaming I would like to see citizens united overturned and corporations going back to being inanimate objects.  ;D



https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/03/15/us/politics/trump-budget-proposal.html
Quote
Defense

$574 billion
2018 PROPOSAL
⬆︎+$52.3 billion
CHANGE FROM 2017
⬆︎+10%
PCT. CHANGE
It’s unclear exactly how all of the increases would be distributed. Some of the money would go to accelerating the fight against the Islamic State, and to pay for more warships and fighter jets.

President Trump will face difficulty getting this proposal through Congress, where the threat of automatic spending cuts known as sequestration has acted as a brake on military spending. And many American military officials — the defense secretary included — have denounced efforts to cut foreign aid in favor of more defense spending. Many foreign aid programs, those officials say, contribute to global stability and are seen as important in helping avoid future conflicts.
Which party are the chicken hawks again?? Probably both.

Personally, I favor a flat tax system where everyone adds up all their income, whether from jobs, dividends, gains from selling stocks…….. and then you pay a flat per cent based on your total  income.  Maybe have several flat rates based on income.  I thought Simpson-Bowles was a good start.  But, neither the establish Rs nor Ds would support Simpson-Bowles because it impacted special interest groups on both sides of the aisle, would take away campaign and fund raising issues if you actually solved a problem - let alone all the lawyers, accountants and government workers that would lose work.

However, if you are going to really reform something and get legislation passed, the legislation needs to impact groups across the political divide.  Make everyone put some skin into the game…. 

A quote from Simpson-Bowles:

"the current income tax is fundamentally unfair, far too complex, and long overdue for sweeping reform."

https://www.fiscalcommission.gov/sites/fiscalcommission.gov/files/documents/TheMomentofTruth12_1_2010.pdf


“All of this has happened before, and will happen again.”

Online hippo

  • Veteran
  • **
  • Posts: 146
  • Gender: Male
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #293 on: March 17, 2017, 07:38:02 PM »

A negative income tax sounds like the just solution.  Turn the corporations back into inanimate objects as was said, applying the 14th Amendment to actual human beings, and then create a a floor people cannot go under.  If you exist as an adult, you get money to meet basic needs no matter what (since there will always be unemployment), and, if you work, you receive a much higher total.  Instead of redistributing wealth to the rich , make sure there's a humane floor.  It's a pity that Nixon's economic policies look comparatively good now.  At this point, this sort of proposal similar to one supported by the Nixon administration seems like fantasy talk.

Why do we give the private sector so much credit for innovation while demonizing government?  The government often  largely  creates the infrastructure for military related research such as that that led to the Internet, for instance, and then just gives the research away to private enterprise with very little expectation of anything in return.  The public airwaves were more or less just turned over to private enterprise free of charge.  Taxpayers pay for development of industrial development, credit for industrial development almost entirely goes to private industry, and then the government so often gets portrayed as almost totally nefarious and/or incompetent.  The government does certain things such as health care better and more efficiently.

We already redistribute money to the rich and industry.  Why not make sure people can make a decent living?

Online Life Improvement

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2970
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #294 on: March 17, 2017, 07:57:40 PM »
That's right. Government is like a hammer. It can be used for good or for evil. Build something or hurt a person.

Incidentally, anyone else troubled by Trump's attorney general pick?



http://www.businessinsider.com/jeff-sessions-vows-to-ramp-up-drug-enforcement-and-prevention-2017-3

Offline eastreef

  • Super Waygook
  • ***
  • Posts: 271
  • Gender: Male
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #295 on: March 18, 2017, 09:04:52 AM »
Unfortunately, in my opinion the chances of there ever being any real tax reform are basically non-existent.  The special interest groups across the political divide are all too dug into their own tax breaks.  Furthermore, people don’t think about what is good for the country as a whole, they think about what is good for their individual group.  People have become hyphenated-Americans, they put their group first and the country second or third.

No one talks about making a little sacrifice for the good of the country as a whole; it is all about what is good for my particular group.  And, the politicians love and use this for fund raising and campaigns.  If the politicians actually comprised and solved problems they would lose this means of making money and keeping power – e.g. if you don’t give me money and vote for me the other side will annihilate you……  Again, look at Simpson-Bowles: not a complete tax fix but a step in the right direction, and neither the Ds or Rs would support it.

Part of Trump’s winning collation included people who were protesting against the establishment Rs and Ds.  They voted for Trump not because they necessarily liked him or all of his positions, but to throw a political hand grenade into Washington D.C., because things could not get worse in DC than they already were…….
 
 
“All of this has happened before, and will happen again.”

Online Life Improvement

  • The Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2970
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #296 on: March 18, 2017, 09:35:34 AM »
You actually believe that?

Exaggerations, lies, and slander convinced you.

In actuality, Obama was an intelligent and dignified president for eight years, presiding over a prosperous economy.


Offline eastreef

  • Super Waygook
  • ***
  • Posts: 271
  • Gender: Male
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #297 on: March 18, 2017, 10:22:31 AM »

A negative income tax sounds like the just solution.  Turn the corporations back into inanimate objects as was said, applying the 14th Amendment to actual human beings, and then create a a floor people cannot go under.  If you exist as an adult, you get money to meet basic needs no matter what (since there will always be unemployment), and, if you work, you receive a much higher total.  Instead of redistributing wealth to the rich , make sure there's a humane floor.  It's a pity that Nixon's economic policies look comparatively good now.  At this point, this sort of proposal similar to one supported by the Nixon administration seems like fantasy talk.

Why do we give the private sector so much credit for innovation while demonizing government?  The government often  largely  creates the infrastructure for military related research such as that that led to the Internet, for instance, and then just gives the research away to private enterprise with very little expectation of anything in return.  The public airwaves were more or less just turned over to private enterprise free of charge.  Taxpayers pay for development of industrial development, credit for industrial development almost entirely goes to private industry, and then the government so often gets portrayed as almost totally nefarious and/or incompetent.  The government does certain things such as health care better and more efficiently.

We already redistribute money to the rich and industry.  Why not make sure people can make a decent living?

Besides opening China and finally ending Vietnam, Nixon did do other things besides Watergate.  Remember, at this time Nixon was Republican and the House and Senate were controlled by Democrats, but sometimes they worked together - upset special interest groups on both sides of the aisle - comprised and did get some things done.  Did each side get everything they wanted: no….And, sometimes the special interest groups prevailed, as with delaying national health care (see below).

Nixon created the EPA:

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2010/12/gallery-why-nixon-created-the-epa/67351/

Forty years ago today, Richard Nixon's Administration officially created a new entity, the Environmental Protection Agency.

1970 was a year of tremendous environmental action by Nixon and Congress. The President signed the National Environmental Policy Act on January 2nd, delivered a call to make "the 1970s a historic period when, by conscious choice, [we] transform our land into what we want it to become" in his State of the Union Address, and ended the year with the creation of an independent agency to regulate the environment.

Nixon proposed national health care, but if you notice the 1974 date of the message below, he got occupied by other thing in 1974.   

It is really worth reading his entire message on health care found at the link.  Below are just some excerpts.  Just think if this had passed back in 1974. 

http://khn.org/news/nixon-proposal/

President Richard Nixon’s Special Message to the Congress Proposing a Comprehensive Health Insurance Plan
February 6, 1974

From The American Presidency Project, University of California at Santa Barbara
To the Congress of the United States:

One of the most cherished goals of our democracy is to assure every American an equal opportunity to lead a full and productive life.
 
In the last quarter century, we have made remarkable progress toward that goal, opening the doors to millions of our fellow countrymen who were seeking equal opportunities in education, jobs and voting.

Now it is time that we move forward again in still another critical area: health care.
Without adequate health care, no one can make full use of his or her talents and opportunities. It is thus just as important that economic, racial and social barriers not stand in the way of good health care as it is to eliminate those barriers to a good education and a good job.

Three years ago, I proposed a major health insurance program to the Congress, seeking to guarantee adequate financing of health care on a nationwide basis. That proposal generated widespread discussion and useful debate. But no legislation reached my desk……..

–Across the Nation, the average cost of a day of hospital care now exceeds $110.
–The average cost of delivering a baby and providing postnatal care approaches $1,000.
–The average cost of health care for terminal cancer now exceeds $20,000.

BROAD AND BALANCED PROTECTION FOR ALL AMERICANS

Upon adoption of appropriate Federal and State legislation, the Comprehensive Health Insurance Plan would offer to every American the same broad and balanced health protection through one of three major programs: ………………….

…….The benefits offered by the three plans would be identical for all Americans, regardless of age or income. Benefits would be provided for:
–hospital care;
–physicians’ care in and out of the hospital;
–prescription and life-saving drugs;
–laboratory tests and X-rays;
–medical devices;
–ambulance services; and,
–other ancillary health care.

There would be no exclusions of coverage based on the nature of the illness. For example, a person with heart disease would qualify for benefits as would a person with kidney disease.       

In addition, CHIP would cover treatment for mental illness, alcoholism and drug addiction, whether that treatment were provided in hospitals and physicians’ offices or in community based settings.

Under the Comprehensive Health Insurance Plan, a doctor’s decisions could be based on the health care needs of his patients, not on health insurance coverage. This difference is essential for quality care.

Every American participating in the program would be insured for catastrophic illnesses that can eat away savings and plunge individuals and families into hopeless debt for years. No family would ever have annual out-of-pocket expenses for covered health services in excess of $1,500, and low-income families would face substantially smaller expenses.

As part of this program, every American who participates in the program would receive a Health-card when the plan goes into effect in his State. This card, similar to a credit card, would be honored by hospitals, nursing homes, emergency rooms, doctors, and clinics across the country. This card could also be used to identify information on blood type and .sensitivity to particular drugs-information which might be important in an emergency.

Bills for the services paid for with the Health-card would be sent to the insurance carrier who would reimburse the provider of the care for covered services, then bill the patient for his share, if any.

The entire program would become effective in 1976, assuming that the plan is promptly enacted by the Congress.
                   
“All of this has happened before, and will happen again.”

Offline eastreef

  • Super Waygook
  • ***
  • Posts: 271
  • Gender: Male
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #298 on: March 18, 2017, 10:35:38 AM »
You actually believe that?

Exaggerations, lies, and slander convinced you.

In actuality, Obama was an intelligent and dignified president for eight years, presiding over a prosperous economy.



Actually, I know exactly why I and others I know supported Trump….

Yes, Obama was always upfront and honest with the American people, especially when it came to what many call his “signature” legislation.

http://www.politifact.com/obama-like-health-care-keep/

1.  President’s weekly address, June 6, 2009: "If you like the plan you have, you can keep it.  If you like the doctor you have, you can keep your doctor, too.  The only change you’ll see are falling costs as our reforms take hold."

2.  Town hall in Green Bay, Wis., June 11, 2009: "No matter how we reform health care, I intend to keep this promise: If you like your doctor, you'll be able to keep your doctor; if you like your health care plan, you'll be able to keep your health care plan."

3.  Remarks at the American Medical Association, June 15, 2009: "I know that there are millions of Americans who are content with their health care coverage — they like their plan and, most importantly, they value their relationship with their doctor. They trust you. And that means that no matter how we reform health care, we will keep this promise to the American people: If you like your doctor, you will be able to keep your doctor, period. If you like your health care plan, you'll be able to keep your health care plan, period. No one will take it away, no matter what."   

4.  Remarks at a rally for New Jersey Gov. Jon Corzine, July 16, 2009: "if you've got health insurance, you like your doctor, you like your plan — you can keep your doctor, you can keep your plan.  Nobody is talking about taking that away from you." 
“All of this has happened before, and will happen again.”

Online hippo

  • Veteran
  • **
  • Posts: 146
  • Gender: Male
Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #299 on: March 18, 2017, 11:57:06 AM »

A negative income tax sounds like the just solution.  Turn the corporations back into inanimate objects as was said, applying the 14th Amendment to actual human beings, and then create a a floor people cannot go under.  If you exist as an adult, you get money to meet basic needs no matter what (since there will always be unemployment), and, if you work, you receive a much higher total.  Instead of redistributing wealth to the rich , make sure there's a humane floor.  It's a pity that Nixon's economic policies look comparatively good now.  At this point, this sort of proposal similar to one supported by the Nixon administration seems like fantasy talk.

Why do we give the private sector so much credit for innovation while demonizing government?  The government often  largely  creates the infrastructure for military related research such as that that led to the Internet, for instance, and then just gives the research away to private enterprise with very little expectation of anything in return.  The public airwaves were more or less just turned over to private enterprise free of charge.  Taxpayers pay for development of industrial development, credit for industrial development almost entirely goes to private industry, and then the government so often gets portrayed as almost totally nefarious and/or incompetent.  The government does certain things such as health care better and more efficiently.

We already redistribute money to the rich and industry.  Why not make sure people can make a decent living?

Besides opening China and finally ending Vietnam, Nixon did do other things besides Watergate.  Remember, at this time Nixon was Republican and the House and Senate were controlled by Democrats, but sometimes they worked together - upset special interest groups on both sides of the aisle - comprised and did get some things done.  Did each side get everything they wanted: no….And, sometimes the special interest groups prevailed, as with delaying national health care (see below).

Nixon created the EPA:

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2010/12/gallery-why-nixon-created-the-epa/67351/

Forty years ago today, Richard Nixon's Administration officially created a new entity, the Environmental Protection Agency.

1970 was a year of tremendous environmental action by Nixon and Congress. The President signed the National Environmental Policy Act on January 2nd, delivered a call to make "the 1970s a historic period when, by conscious choice, [we] transform our land into what we want it to become" in his State of the Union Address, and ended the year with the creation of an independent agency to regulate the environment.

Nixon proposed national health care, but if you notice the 1974 date of the message below, he got occupied by other thing in 1974.   

It is really worth reading his entire message on health care found at the link.  Below are just some excerpts.  Just think if this had passed back in 1974. 

http://khn.org/news/nixon-proposal/

President Richard Nixon’s Special Message to the Congress Proposing a Comprehensive Health Insurance Plan
February 6, 1974

From The American Presidency Project, University of California at Santa Barbara
To the Congress of the United States:

One of the most cherished goals of our democracy is to assure every American an equal opportunity to lead a full and productive life.
 
In the last quarter century, we have made remarkable progress toward that goal, opening the doors to millions of our fellow countrymen who were seeking equal opportunities in education, jobs and voting.

Now it is time that we move forward again in still another critical area: health care.
Without adequate health care, no one can make full use of his or her talents and opportunities. It is thus just as important that economic, racial and social barriers not stand in the way of good health care as it is to eliminate those barriers to a good education and a good job.

Three years ago, I proposed a major health insurance program to the Congress, seeking to guarantee adequate financing of health care on a nationwide basis. That proposal generated widespread discussion and useful debate. But no legislation reached my desk……..

–Across the Nation, the average cost of a day of hospital care now exceeds $110.
–The average cost of delivering a baby and providing postnatal care approaches $1,000.
–The average cost of health care for terminal cancer now exceeds $20,000.

BROAD AND BALANCED PROTECTION FOR ALL AMERICANS

Upon adoption of appropriate Federal and State legislation, the Comprehensive Health Insurance Plan would offer to every American the same broad and balanced health protection through one of three major programs: ………………….

…….The benefits offered by the three plans would be identical for all Americans, regardless of age or income. Benefits would be provided for:
–hospital care;
–physicians’ care in and out of the hospital;
–prescription and life-saving drugs;
–laboratory tests and X-rays;
–medical devices;
–ambulance services; and,
–other ancillary health care.

There would be no exclusions of coverage based on the nature of the illness. For example, a person with heart disease would qualify for benefits as would a person with kidney disease.       

In addition, CHIP would cover treatment for mental illness, alcoholism and drug addiction, whether that treatment were provided in hospitals and physicians’ offices or in community based settings.

Under the Comprehensive Health Insurance Plan, a doctor’s decisions could be based on the health care needs of his patients, not on health insurance coverage. This difference is essential for quality care.

Every American participating in the program would be insured for catastrophic illnesses that can eat away savings and plunge individuals and families into hopeless debt for years. No family would ever have annual out-of-pocket expenses for covered health services in excess of $1,500, and low-income families would face substantially smaller expenses.

As part of this program, every American who participates in the program would receive a Health-card when the plan goes into effect in his State. This card, similar to a credit card, would be honored by hospitals, nursing homes, emergency rooms, doctors, and clinics across the country. This card could also be used to identify information on blood type and .sensitivity to particular drugs-information which might be important in an emergency.

Bills for the services paid for with the Health-card would be sent to the insurance carrier who would reimburse the provider of the care for covered services, then bill the patient for his share, if any.

The entire program would become effective in 1976, assuming that the plan is promptly enacted by the Congress.
                   


But I think Nixon did not care that much about domestic economic policy.  There was the famous conversation between him and JFK where Kennedy said, “It really is true that foreign affairs is the only important issue for a president to handle, isn’t it? I mean, who gives a shit if the minimum wage is $1.15 or $1.25, in comparison to something like this?”  http://radioboston.legacy.wbur.org/2013/10/09/dallek I seriously doubt that Nixon disagreed.  Presidents primarily make their names on foreign policy.  Of course, Nixon (and Kennedy) wanted the economy to perform well and avoid anything they perceived as distractions (e.g. civil rights for both of them).

Credit should be given for the opening of China and the creation of the EPA.  Regarding Vietnam, however, it seems like Nixon actually prolonged the war.  There's good evidence that he sabotaged the Paris Peace Talks in 1968 for electoral advantage. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21768668  Not to mention the secret bombings and war crimes he committed. 

So why mention Nixon again?  Nixon was the last American liberal President on economic policy, so it provides a nice contrast to climate on economics today.  Also, the thread is about impeachment and Nixon's foreign policy and actions against domestic opposition show how ill-defined grounds for impeachment are.  Nixon got away with war crimes, avoided criminal prosecution, and would have been impeached and convicted for something relatively insignificant compared to his other activities if he had stayed in office. 

« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 12:01:28 PM by hippo »