November 20, 2018, 01:18:55 PM


Author Topic: When will Trump be impeached?  (Read 182794 times)

Online Adel

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2100 on: September 04, 2018, 04:53:43 AM »

Quote
Do any of you think that Trump really is insane or senile?

I think caution should be used regarding mental illness diagnoses and someone's public persona


If that's the case then perhaps you should refrain from positing the question in an effort to prompt the discussion.

Nonetheless, I've given an answer so perhaps it would polite to share yours with regards to the state of your president's mental health. 

Do you acknowledge that any of his behavior might be indicative of a mental health problem? Please don't deflect. 

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2101 on: September 04, 2018, 09:04:32 AM »

Quote
Do any of you think that Trump really is insane or senile?

I think caution should be used regarding mental illness diagnoses and someone's public persona


If that's the case then perhaps you should refrain from positing the question in an effort to prompt the discussion.

Nonetheless, I've given an answer so perhaps it would polite to share yours with regards to the state of your president's mental health. 

Do you acknowledge that any of his behavior might be indicative of a mental health problem? Please don't deflect.

I said be cautious, not that we shouldn't comment period.

I don't think Trump has mental health problems at all. By all accounts, his private persona differs greatly from his public persona. He clearly shows that he understands what he's saying and says it for effect. One of the best-known and first examples was his "Only Rosie O'Donnell" response during the debates. Now, liberals look at that and say "Trump's lying- he's deranged" or "Trump doesn't remember, he's senile". Anyone with half a brain looks at that and sees that Trump is using rhetorical technique to turn the tables on tricky question, and it worked.

Salena Zito, who made her mark as a reporter in the 2016 election, put it best- Trump's opponents take him literally but not seriously. Trump's supporters take him seriously, but not literally. If you take Trump literally, then you are making a grave mistake of comprehension and interpretation.

As far as things people use to say he's mentally ill- his narcissism and his ego. Again, there's public and private persona. Is it who he is, or is it a public character or projection? Secondly, are those always crippling? Bill Clinton had a massive ego and was fairly succesful. People said Reagan was deranged and he actually was rather shrewd. Nixon had rampant paranoia but had many remarkable accomplishments that really made the world a better/different place-EPA, opening China, getting us out of Vietnam, fiat currency, etc. LBJ would flash his pecker at staffers and had a massive ego and he got a lot done. You have to have a certain level of ego and yes, narcissism to rise that high in modern politics, barring tumultuous circumstances. It's similar to great athletes and performers- they have to have a certain level of ego to believe they're great and what they're doing is great.

Let's look back at what has taken place under Trump- ISIS is defeated. The economy is booming. Consumer confidence is high. Unemployment is low. No major wars. Even US carbon emissions are down. Now you can say that this was all started by Obama and you'd be right, but Trump certainly hasn't messed it up and SOME of it IS because of Trump. But here's the funny part, a lot of the bad stuff people freak out about was also under Obama and was stuff that wasn't being addressed- Our immigration policy was broken, our China, NATO and NAFTA policies at the very least were due for a major overhaul (which shouldn't be controversial- things change and every 20 or so years, our allies should get together and look at things that need to be changed), our Russia policy was broken. The embassy move to Israel (which was supposed to spark a war but didn't- wrong again liberals!) recognizes reality.

If anything Trump is like the scary monster that gets misunderstood and chased by the pitchfork mob because it talks different and acts a little funny, even though he's done a bunch of good things.

Peple say Trump's a bad businessman because theoretically he could have just put his money in the S&P 500 and made more. What they don't consider is the intangible assets he acquired along the way. The man has gone from being nobody into having money, tremendous amounts of political power, a real army at his disposal + an army of supporters that numbers in the 10s of millions and are rather devoted, women, and being the most famous person on the planet. Sounds pretty shrewd to me and that what he has is worth far more. And he wouldn't have gotten those things if he didn't take the risks and have the various failures he did along the way. Nobody gets every investment right.

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Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2102 on: September 04, 2018, 09:35:10 AM »
If you want to talk mental illness, let's look at Trump's detractors. Here's a great indicator that they're the ones who might be having the problem. It's called "Her Opponent". It features Trump as a woman and Clinton as a man. Being a production from a liberal New York college, everyone expected it to reveal the awful, terrible sexism of Trump supporters and validate their belief in their reality because they're liberal.

That didn't happen.

In fact what did happen was a rude awakening and a gut punch. Male Clinton was loathed. People realized she was basically blabbering on about nothing and really saying nothing of substance and was incredibly deceitful. Female Trump on the other hand was seen as tough and challenging and charismatic.
https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2017/march/trump-clinton-debates-gender-reversal.html

I think we're in the middle of one of the great mass hysterias of modern times when it comes to how freaked out people are by Trump. Look at the cognitive dissonance involved- Trump is a Russian agent...yet none of our allies is threatening war with Russia over their biggest ally being taken over by a Russian agent. People claiming it's doom and Hitler 2.0...while wearing pink hats, dressing as vaginas, and then heading out later that night to the club and posting cat pictures on Instagram. People claiming we're living in the Handmaid's Tale- that's right, Cosplay as political movement. 200 Nazis/White Supremacists gather for a nationwide meeting and somehow people are convinced that Nazis are a significant political movement in the U.S.

Now, there are a number of Trump supporters who have gone off the deep end as well (QAnon). But for a large number, Trump's foibles were baked in. They know he tells lies. They know he isn't a paragon of virtue. The thing was, he never ran as someone who was. He didn't pretend he was a saint. Trump may be a liar, but he isn't a hypocraite and he does what he promises to do- he really does want to build a wall, tear up bad deals and make new ones, appoint conservative justices, insult the media (all the while pacing and leading and working towards a settlement, which many of his supporters also recognize).

Perhaps the second most prescient article on the 2016 campaign touched on this issue of Trump's supporters. It was called "The Flight 93 Election". For Republicans, conservatives, and in some cases, middle Americans, people felt like they were on a plane hurtling towards destruction and that this was their last chance. If they lost again, the Democrats might gain permanent control and the country would irrevocably shift significantly to the left, possibly radically. Trump, like the food cart banging the cockpit door, was an imperfect tool to stop it, but it was all they had.

Another author addressed it that millions of Americans in rural and small town America felt like the plain girl who had been dumped by her boyfriend at the dance for the sexy new girl in town. Trump was the football player who maybe drinks too much and people think is a bit of a jerk, but he came over to them and grabbed them by the hand and took them on the dance floor and made everything alright. And when people said he was taking advantage of her, he actually really did put himself on the line (he's taking a MAJOR risk with his brand) Having done that, they are very unlikely to turn their backs on him, and justifiably so, for the Democratic Party DID turn their back on them. This is a RATIONAL decision by millions of rural and small town Americans.

So in conclusion, while there is delusion on both sides in the form of THE RESISTANCE and the WTF of QAnon, since I think the Resistance is a greater share of the left at the current moment, it is Trump's staunch opponents who have more to worry about and perhaps need to take a step back.

Offline gogators!

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2103 on: September 04, 2018, 09:59:54 AM »
Viva la Resistance! They (we) are fighting for the ideals America was founded on. And we're making progress.

Vote DEM in November!

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2104 on: September 04, 2018, 10:13:35 AM »
Viva la Resistance! They (we) are fighting for the ideals America was founded on. And we're making progress.

Vote DEM in November!

Depends on what they're running for. I'm looking at some of the Dem candidates in state and local. But sorry, I'm taking James over Stabenow (my congressional district is solid blue).

The Resistance isn't fighting for anything. They're reflexively resisting and having put forth any alternatives.

Online tylerthegloob

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2105 on: September 04, 2018, 10:19:48 AM »
Viva la Resistance! They (we) are fighting for the ideals America was founded on. And we're making progress.

Vote DEM in November!

Depends on what they're running for. I'm looking at some of the Dem candidates in state and local. But sorry, I'm taking James over Stabenow (my congressional district is solid blue).

The Resistance isn't fighting for anything. They're reflexively resisting and having put forth any alternatives.

That sounds like something a Tory would've said leading up to the revolution...

Not to imply we're on the brink of a revolution. Just my thoughts on your attitude here.

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2106 on: September 04, 2018, 10:24:17 AM »
Viva la Resistance! They (we) are fighting for the ideals America was founded on. And we're making progress.

Vote DEM in November!

Depends on what they're running for. I'm looking at some of the Dem candidates in state and local. But sorry, I'm taking James over Stabenow (my congressional district is solid blue).

The Resistance isn't fighting for anything. They're reflexively resisting and having put forth any alternatives.

If you can't see what Dem candidates are running for then you're not looking hard enough.

Policy and social issues aside, just holding Trump and his cohorts to account sounds like a solid enough platform.

If anything, Republican incumbents are running poor campaigns because they can't rally against Obama anymore and it's showing that they have nothing to show for their time in office.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 10:25:59 AM by Savant »

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2107 on: September 04, 2018, 10:29:35 AM »
That sounds like something a Tory would've said leading up to the revolution...

Not to imply we're on the brink of a revolution. Just my thoughts on your attitude here.

What has Trump done? He's cut taxes, appointed Gorsuch (which any other Republican president would have done), and made a few middling trade deals. Not exactly taxation without representation.

Since we're not on the verge of revolution, it is important for the left to offer alternatives and to present it's agenda and plans. So far, we have incoherance and little more than "Trump is bad" or demands that the Republicans acquiesce to the Democratic agenda.

And that's why I'm voting Republican. They at least have an agenda and proposals, some of which I agree with, and even some I don't are better than what the left is likely to offer given it's current state of lunacy. Do they even have an immigration policy? A tax policy? A coherant foreign policy? Any plan for economic growth? Are they going to reign in the SJWs at all? What about Big Tech?

State wise though, I'm more inclined to vote Dem because I worry about Republicans and their affinity for anti-labor policies and their fumbling with education.

Offline mcdhenstep

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2108 on: September 04, 2018, 02:50:32 PM »
That sounds like something a Tory would've said leading up to the revolution...

Not to imply we're on the brink of a revolution. Just my thoughts on your attitude here.

What has Trump done? He's cut taxes, appointed Gorsuch (which any other Republican president would have done), and made a few middling trade deals. Not exactly taxation without representation.

Since we're not on the verge of revolution, it is important for the left to offer alternatives and to present it's agenda and plans. So far, we have incoherance and little more than "Trump is bad" or demands that the Republicans acquiesce to the Democratic agenda.

And that's why I'm voting Republican. They at least have an agenda and proposals, some of which I agree with, and even some I don't are better than what the left is likely to offer given it's current state of lunacy. Do they even have an immigration policy? A tax policy? A coherant foreign policy? Any plan for economic growth? Are they going to reign in the SJWs at all? What about Big Tech?

State wise though, I'm more inclined to vote Dem because I worry about Republicans and their affinity for anti-labor policies and their fumbling with education.

What are the Republican policies? Other than build a wall and stop all immigartion except from countries they like. Tax policy? Cut all taxes ensuring the wealthy get wealthier. A coherent foreign policy plan? Threaten allies, disrupt international institutions and flatter dictators. Economic plan? Pull out of trade deals and hurt American workers. But the SJW's can suck it so all is well.

Republicans have run congress for long enough to have policies in place. They haven't done that.

Please, Republicans have nothing to offer but Trumpism and Trumpism offers nothing at all but vitriolic rhetoric against percieved elites. And owning the libs

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2109 on: September 04, 2018, 03:11:56 PM »
What are the Republican policies? Other than build a wall and stop all immigartion except from countries they like. Tax policy? Cut all taxes ensuring the wealthy get wealthier. A coherent foreign policy plan? Threaten allies, disrupt international institutions and flatter dictators. Economic plan? Pull out of trade deals and hurt American workers. But the SJW's can suck it so all is well.
Yes- build a wall, the DACA deal they offered, and merit based immigration. The tax cuts that were already offered. How do you propose to make other wealthy? Economic redistribution in the form of a blank check?

Trump wants to primarily renegotiate our global trade deals to be more beneficial to the U.S. overall. Obviously, some individual sectors or firms may suffer, but it is supposed to be better overall, in theory. American workers were already hurt by our trade deals.

Our international institutions are overdue for an overhaul. They've been unchaged since the Cold War, but things have changed. Good on Trump for recognizing that even if "progressives" can't see the future.

Offline gogators!

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2110 on: September 04, 2018, 07:41:58 PM »
Viva la Resistance! They (we) are fighting for the ideals America was founded on. And we're making progress.

Vote DEM in November!

Depends on what they're running for. I'm looking at some of the Dem candidates in state and local. But sorry, I'm taking James over Stabenow (my congressional district is solid blue).

The Resistance isn't fighting for anything. They're reflexively resisting and having put forth any alternatives.
Complete BS.

Offline gogators!

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2111 on: September 04, 2018, 11:54:32 PM »
What are the Republican policies? Other than build a wall and stop all immigartion except from countries they like. Tax policy? Cut all taxes ensuring the wealthy get wealthier. A coherent foreign policy plan? Threaten allies, disrupt international institutions and flatter dictators. Economic plan? Pull out of trade deals and hurt American workers. But the SJW's can suck it so all is well.
Yes- build a wall, the DACA deal they offered, and merit based immigration. The tax cuts that were already offered. How do you propose to make other wealthy? Economic redistribution in the form of a blank check?

Trump wants to primarily renegotiate our global trade deals to be more beneficial to the U.S. overall. Obviously, some individual sectors or firms may suffer, but it is supposed to be better overall, in theory. American workers were already hurt by our trade deals.

Our international institutions are overdue for an overhaul. They've been unchaged since the Cold War, but things have changed. Good on Trump for recognizing that even if "progressives" can't see the future.
Right, nothing has changed since the Cold War. Take a look around once in a while.

As far as trump and the "future," that's a crock. Rolling back civil rights, environmental protections, and trying to revive industries that can't keep up on their own, that ain't the future, bud. That's the past.

The DACA deal that the Dems AGREED to? Merit-based immigration is a smoke screen for greatly limiting ALL immigration, i.e., white nativism.

Get your FACTS straight.

Offline gogators!

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2112 on: September 05, 2018, 08:39:29 PM »
Quote
President Trump so alarmed his defense secretary, Jim Mattis, during a discussion last January of the nuclear standoff with North Korea that an exasperated Mr. Mattis told colleagues “the president acted like — and had the understanding of — a ‘fifth or sixth grader.’”

At another moment, Mr. Trump’s aides became so worried about his judgment that Gary D. Cohn, then the chief economic adviser, took a letter from the president’s Oval Office desk authorizing the withdrawal of the United States from a trade agreement with South Korea. Mr. Trump, who had planned to sign the letter, never realized it was missing.

Quote
In July 2017, Mr. Woodward said, Mr. Trump told Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull of Australia that he would exempt his country from steel tariffs, only to claim, nearly eight months later, that he had never made that promise. Pressed on it by Mr. Turnbull, Mr. Trump said, “Oh yeah, I guess I remember that.”

Mr. Cohn, Mr. Woodward said, concluded that Mr. Trump was a “professional liar.”

He found a sympathetic ear in Mr. Kelly, another retired Marine general, who frequently vented his frustration to colleagues about the president, whom he labeled “unhinged,” an “idiot” and “off the rails.” Mr. Kelly’s reference to Mr. Trump as an “idiot” has been reported before.

“We’re in crazytown,” Mr. Kelly said in one meeting, according to Mr. Woodward. “I don’t even know why any of us are here. This is the worst job I’ve ever had.”

Mental wounds not healing
Life's a bitter shame

I'm going off the rails on a crazy train
I'm going off the rails on a crazy train

Offline mcdhenstep

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2113 on: September 06, 2018, 11:00:10 AM »
What are the Republican policies? Other than build a wall and stop all immigartion except from countries they like. Tax policy? Cut all taxes ensuring the wealthy get wealthier. A coherent foreign policy plan? Threaten allies, disrupt international institutions and flatter dictators. Economic plan? Pull out of trade deals and hurt American workers. But the SJW's can suck it so all is well.
Yes- build a wall, the DACA deal they offered, and merit based immigration. The tax cuts that were already offered. How do you propose to make other wealthy? Economic redistribution in the form of a blank check?

Trump wants to primarily renegotiate our global trade deals to be more beneficial to the U.S. overall. Obviously, some individual sectors or firms may suffer, but it is supposed to be better overall, in theory. American workers were already hurt by our trade deals.

Our international institutions are overdue for an overhaul. They've been unchaged since the Cold War, but things have changed. Good on Trump for recognizing that even if "progressives" can't see the future.

Have to disagree. In the 21st century, a wall along a 3000km border is fantasy. Social welfare programmes are a feature of most European nations all of which have more equal distribution of wealth than the US. All have higher, and I would say fairer, taxes then the US to that end. And a lot have happier citizens, which far less bitterness and polarisation than the US. But fair enough if you see things differently, that's the nature of politics and economics.

I also think that if the party which has controlled congress for the past few years really had well-planned policies they would have implemented them far sooner. They haven't which illustrates the lack of coherence among the party and their president.

The idea that the institutions which have served the US and its allies well are in need of an overhaul is plainly wrong. The only country calling for an overhaul is the US, none of its European allies are, and most are in fact aghastat his actions. Also, before Trump that wasn't a policy of either party. The only beneificiary of such calls is Russia and possibly China.

I think it's pretty naive to believe everything he says or does. And Republicans will suffer long term from his term in office.

Online Mr C

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2114 on: September 07, 2018, 07:44:40 AM »
What are the Republican policies? Other than build a wall and stop all immigartion except from countries they like. Tax policy? Cut all taxes ensuring the wealthy get wealthier. A coherent foreign policy plan? Threaten allies, disrupt international institutions and flatter dictators. Economic plan? Pull out of trade deals and hurt American workers. But the SJW's can suck it so all is well.
Yes- build a wall, the DACA deal they offered, and merit based immigration. The tax cuts that were already offered. How do you propose to make other wealthy? Economic redistribution in the form of a blank check?

Trump wants to primarily renegotiate our global trade deals to be more beneficial to the U.S. overall. Obviously, some individual sectors or firms may suffer, but it is supposed to be better overall, in theory. American workers were already hurt by our trade deals.

Our international institutions are overdue for an overhaul. They've been unchaged since the Cold War, but things have changed. Good on Trump for recognizing that even if "progressives" can't see the future.

Have to disagree. In the 21st century, a wall along a 3000km border is fantasy. Social welfare programmes are a feature of most European nations all of which have more equal distribution of wealth than the US. All have higher, and I would say fairer, taxes then the US to that end. And a lot have happier citizens, which far less bitterness and polarisation than the US. But fair enough if you see things differently, that's the nature of politics and economics.

I also think that if the party which has controlled congress for the past few years really had well-planned policies they would have implemented them far sooner. They haven't which illustrates the lack of coherence among the party and their president.

The idea that the institutions which have served the US and its allies well are in need of an overhaul is plainly wrong. The only country calling for an overhaul is the US, none of its European allies are, and most are in fact aghastat his actions. Also, before Trump that wasn't a policy of either party. The only beneificiary of such calls is Russia and possibly China.

I think it's pretty naive to believe everything anything he says or does. And Republicans will suffer long term from his term in office.
FIFY.

Otherwise, solid post.

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2115 on: September 07, 2018, 08:34:07 AM »
I think it's pretty naive to believe everything anything he says or does. And Republicans will suffer long term from his term in office.
FIFY.

Otherwise, solid post.

Funny, his opponents believe the things he says that validate their view, but everything else is a lie. Trump says "I'm innocent"- he's lying. Trump says "Russia, if you're listening..." then he just said the truth and was confessing to treason.

You can't have it both ways. I think the best conclusion is take anything Trump says either way with a grain of salt. Look, I'll say I support him on more than not, but I'll be the first to admit that Trump says a lot of crap which shouldn't be taken at face value.

[quoteHave to disagree. In the 21st century, a wall along a 3000km border is fantasy][/quote]

I agree the wall is moronic (to some extent- obviously in moderate amounts at certain high-traffic regions or to push traffic towards border crossings and controlled areas and to avoid dangerous terrain is sensible), but it IS a plan.

Quote
The idea that the institutions which have served the US and its allies well are in need of an overhaul is plainly wrong. The only country calling for an overhaul is the US

The notion of a European army isn't a major overhaul? That's been bandied about by the EU, pre-Trump. That certainly would represent a major overhaul.

Certainly you'd agree that just as a natural matter of course, that after a certain period of time, circumstances will change and just as a part of natural progress and development, that long-standing agreements should get something of an overhaul just as a matter of "routine maintenance". I mean, we don't have to assume such an overaul would be excessively confrontational or to the detriment of the relationship (obviously any negotiation will have its areas of disagreement, but nothing catastrophic). It would seem to be a sensible measure that could boost efficiency and the well-being of both parties.

This doesn't mean you have to agree with Trump's direction as planning. An overhaul isn't any good if you're damaging things, but the idea of an overhaul in principal after say, a generation is not something one should oppose out of hand.

Online tylerthegloob

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2116 on: September 07, 2018, 09:58:27 AM »

You can't have it both ways. I think the best conclusion is take anything Trump says either way with a grain of salt. Look, I'll say I support him on more than not, but I'll be the first to admit that Trump says a lot of crap which shouldn't be taken at face value.


For what it's worth, I really don't want to have to take the ****** president's words with a grain of salt. To some extent you have to take anyone's words with a grain of salt, but this guy is putting the country way past safe levels of sodium. I remember when republicans (not saying you are one) used to complain about Obama not being presidential enough because of irrelevant things like the color of his skin suits. For the same people who said that to now defend a republican president by saying "we shouldn't take him seriously" is just ~wild~ to me.

Online Mr.DeMartino

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2117 on: September 07, 2018, 10:12:19 AM »
For what it's worth, I really don't want to have to take the ****** president's words with a grain of salt. To some extent you have to take anyone's words with a grain of salt, but this guy is putting the country way past safe levels of sodium. I remember when republicans (not saying you are one) used to complain about Obama not being presidential enough because of irrelevant things like the color of his skin suits. For the same people who said that to now defend a republican president by saying "we shouldn't take him seriously" is just ~wild~ to me.

Oh I agree there was a lot of conervative/Republican dumbassery when it came to Obama and stuff like his suit or some crap they'd spew about Michelle. Heck, I didn't even give a crap about him and Jeremiah Wright or what he did when he was young and in college, and I voted for him the first time and favored him over Romney (though wrote in Ron Paul) in 2012. I agree that a lot of Republicans and conservatives are being hypocrites on this, especially the Family Values crowd.

I think Trump overall does two really important things- He's really forcing a reckoning with "the system" and "the establishment" and in part he is doing what his voters wanted him to do- Go in there and blow things up and maybe, somehow, force out the crowd that has played both sides of the aisle for the last 30 years and perhaps not always served the interests of the American people as much as globalism and corporations. Whether his moves are effective at doing that is another matter, but it is a shake-up.

The other thing that Trump really brings is that, to go along with David Brooks, Trump may be uniquely talented in terms of dealing with dictators and rogue regimes in a way a conventional politician might not be. The establishments methods don't exactly have the best track record of recent success in Syria, Russia, and North Korea. Sometimes you have to go with unconventional and see if it works. Just like only Nixon could go to China, perhaps only Trump can go to North Korea. We may lose something in terms of our traditional relationships, but I don't think that loss overall is going to be seriously damaging. On the other hand, what we could gain in say, bringing North Korea into the international community is tremendous.

Offline Chester Jim

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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2118 on: September 07, 2018, 10:45:18 AM »
Is it just me or is having an unelected anonymous staff member working against an elected president unsettling. 
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Re: When will Trump be impeached?
« Reply #2119 on: September 07, 2018, 10:45:57 AM »
Is it just me or is having an unelected anonymous staff member working against an elected president unsettling.

It's just you