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Re: Russia vs USA
« Reply #120 on: January 17, 2017, 08:21:37 PM »

Quote
What did America's values used to be?

They used to include a belief in democracy.

In recent years American freedoms have been seriously eroded at home.

Abroad, they now show a similar contempt for democracy as they topple democratically elected governments and replace them with puppet leaders who will look after US interests.

They used to believe in being a benevolent superpower.

A benevolent superpower would foster democracy in other nations, not try to enslave and subordinate them to US interests.

How many democratically elected governments has the U.S. toppled in the past 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, etc.? None? Give a specific example. (Of something within the past 40 years.) The more recent the better.

Offline MayorHaggar

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Re: Russia vs USA
« Reply #121 on: January 17, 2017, 08:56:50 PM »
So to reiterate you hate America and want to destroy NATO just because it upsets Putin, and because Trump likes pee-pee.

We saw this kind of fascism-friendly BS in the West in the 1930's and it's not going to turn out any better this time.



Not moving NATO up to Latvia or Georgia (and giving them the power to engage us in full-on war with Russia) is not the same as wanting to destroy NATO or hating America. That's the same logic as saying to a British person in 1912 "You must hate the UK because you don't want to ally with Serbia and give them the power to drag us into war against Germany."

We saw the same kind of MIC imperialist war cabal in Japan in the 1930s that was on a collision course with a sleeping giant and hopefully we avoided that.

Do you really think Putin is about to blitzkrieg across Poland and into East Berlin? Are you out of your mind?

Then again, you actually believe the pee allegations, which have zero corroborating evidence, not to mention key elements of that dossier have been debunked and the whole thing has turned into a debacle for Buzzfeed. But hey, why let the truth get in the way of anti-Trump hysteria.

I'm no huge fan of Trump, but my goodness, people have just lost it when it comes to reflexively disagreeing with him simply because he is Trump.

No need to keep repeating yourself. We get it, you love third world dictatorships and you hate pesky things like America, human rights, and unassassinated journalists.

Offline maximmm

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Re: Russia vs USA
« Reply #122 on: January 17, 2017, 09:09:26 PM »
TROLL WAR is now in full swing.  Enjoy it while it lasts, folks.

Offline waygookkorea

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Re: Russia vs USA
« Reply #123 on: January 17, 2017, 09:14:53 PM »

Quote
What did America's values used to be?

They used to include a belief in democracy.

In recent years American freedoms have been seriously eroded at home.

Abroad, they now show a similar contempt for democracy as they topple democratically elected governments and replace them with puppet leaders who will look after US interests.

They used to believe in being a benevolent superpower.

A benevolent superpower would foster democracy in other nations, not try to enslave and subordinate them to US interests.

How many democratically elected governments has the U.S. toppled in the past 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, etc.? None? Give a specific example. (Of something within the past 40 years.) The more recent the better.

Why would it matter if a country is a democracy?

Democracies are terrible. Why would you have a system where everyone gets a say on politics? It completely corrupts the government. Politicians simply pander for votes instead of actually working to improve the country for citizens.

Why would you give a fast food worker a say in who becomes president? That is straight up retarded.

And guess what? The U.S. now allows citizens to be imprisoned indefinitely without trial. The U.S. now executes citizens without trial.

At least Putin seems to actually look out for Russia. Putin doesn't have to pander to lobbyists and foreign governments like every U.S. politician.

Let's face it, Russia has a superior form of government in many ways.

Offline hippo

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Re: Russia vs USA
« Reply #124 on: January 17, 2017, 09:33:08 PM »
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 09:36:32 PM by hippo »

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Re: Russia vs USA
« Reply #125 on: January 17, 2017, 10:43:00 PM »
Why would it matter if a country is a democracy?

Democracies are terrible. Why would you have a system where everyone gets a say on politics? It completely corrupts the government. Politicians simply pander for votes instead of actually working to improve the country for citizens.
At least theoretically, "pandering for votes" = "working to improve the country for citizens".  Far from perfect, but democracies at least allow for leaders to be replaced on a periodic basis if the citizens so choose.

And, again theoretically, everyone having a "say" in politics decreases the likelihood of corruption in government.

You may poo-poo that "theoretically" but democracy is the only system in which it is even theoretically possible.

Every other system of government notably lacks the kinds of checks on power provided by democracy.  You seem to pump for a Trump world--but note that it is possible in America only because of democracy.  Granted, a highly imperfect democracy where the top vote-getter doesn't get into office.  In other systems, vote-getting is irrelevant, like say, in North Korea.
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Why would you give a fast food worker a say in who becomes president? That is straight up retarded.
I guess you are ignorant of the Electoral College system in the US which specifically doesn't allow the fast food worker's vote to directly elect the president.  I guess you are ignorant of quite a lot of things.
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And guess what? The U.S. now allows citizens to be imprisoned indefinitely without trial. The U.S. now executes citizens without trial.
Cite?
Quote
At least Putin seems to actually look out for Russia. Putin doesn't have to pander to lobbyists and foreign governments like every U.S. politician.

Let's face it, Russia has a superior form of government in many ways.
Well, in the ways that allow Putin and a dozen of his friends to rape the Russian economy and the nation's resources for personal gain.  Meanwhile, since they literally have complete control of Russian media (having murdered, imprisoned or exiled all the legitimate journalists), they get to set the agenda and decide all the talking points for the citizens.  Naturally, a lot of Russians are therefore happy with their government, in the way that many North Koreans are virulently pro Kim Jong-eun.

But, what goes around comes around.  Eventually, Putin's control will fail, just as the Soviet system on which it is based failed.  Remember, he's not called the Butcher of Grozny for nothing. 

I am worried about the coming Trump administration, but am convinced that American institutions of liberal democracy are strong enough to withstand their fascist onslaught.  The fact that millions more citizens voted against him than for him gives cause for hope.  Eventually, our better nature will triumph, because, I believe, what goes around comes around. 

We're living in a dangerous time, where the basic ideals of civil society are under siege--personal matters of sexual identity, control of one's own body, religious freedom, expression, safety...seem to depend on the next election. 

People like you, waygookkorea, espouse ideas that are a threat to civil society and I call on you to admit so, or to renounce them: Putin (and Kim, by extention) is good, the right of the people to petition the government for redress of grievances (lobbying) is bad, freedom of the press is not really relevant since it doesn't exist in Russia which has in many ways a superior form of government ....


Offline Aurata

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Re: Russia vs USA
« Reply #126 on: January 17, 2017, 11:31:59 PM »
How many democratically elected governments has the U.S. toppled in the past 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, etc.? None? Give a specific example. (Of something within the past 40 years.) The more recent the better.

How long have we got? the list is endless.

First up even the US government admits toppling other democratically elected governments. So when you claim that what I say is paranoid conspiracy, you're actually denying the US government and the recorded facts of history.

What I tell you is documented fact, freely available to anyone who is intellectually curious enough to seek out truth.  Most people don't care, so they end up brainwashed victims of the mass media.

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Yes, we now have confirmation that the CIA was behind Iran's 1953 coup. But the agency hardly stopped there.

he era of CIA-supported coups dawned in dramatic fashion: An American general flies to Iran and meets with “old friends”; days later, the Shah orders Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh to step down. When the Iranian military hesitates, millions of dollars are funneled into Tehran to buy off Mossadegh’s supporters and finance street protests. The military, recognizing that the balance of power has shifted, seizes the prime minister, who will live the rest of his life under house arrest. It was, as one CIA history puts it, “an American operation from beginning to end,” and one of many U.S.-backed coups to take place around the world during the second half of the 20th century.

The U.S. government has since publicly acknowledged some of these covert actions; in fact, the CIA’s role in the 1953 coup was just declassified this week.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/20/mapped-the-7-governments-the-u-s-has-overthrown/

What do you think the CIA does all day? go after parking violations?
Its a tool of the deep state.

When they're not paying journalists to pull the wool over your eyes, they're toppling governments that dare to put their own national interests ahead of the US.

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Iran, 1953

Guatemala, 1954

Congo, 1960

Dominican Republic, 1961

South Vietnam, 1963

Brazil, 1964

Chile, 1973



Quote
The more recent the better


Ukraine, 2014. Victor Yanukovych


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Offline waygookkorea

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Re: Russia vs USA
« Reply #127 on: January 17, 2017, 11:41:34 PM »
Why would it matter if a country is a democracy?

Democracies are terrible. Why would you have a system where everyone gets a say on politics? It completely corrupts the government. Politicians simply pander for votes instead of actually working to improve the country for citizens.
At least theoretically, "pandering for votes" = "working to improve the country for citizens".  Far from perfect, but democracies at least allow for leaders to be replaced on a periodic basis if the citizens so choose.

And, again theoretically, everyone having a "say" in politics decreases the likelihood of corruption in government.

Yes because U.S. politicians don't have to bow to Israel or face the wrath of their lobby  :rolleyes: They never pay any attention at all to lobbyist in their actual policy decisions  :rolleyes: They don't ever literally play to people's emotions in order to divide them based upon relatively meaningless social issues in order to pander for votes  :rolleyes: They aren't actively inciting racial division in order to gain votes on both sides  :rolleyes:

You may poo-poo that "theoretically" but democracy is the only system in which it is even theoretically possible.

Then why is Russia actually trying to represent it's citizens and the U.S. is currently fighting about the simple task of actually having a border and a legal immigration process? There are literally protests in the U.S. in which people wave the flags of foreign countries and the country is split on whether that is ok or not :rolleyes:

Every other system of government notably lacks the kinds of checks on power provided by democracy.  You seem to pump for a Trump world--but note that it is possible in America only because of democracy.  Granted, a highly imperfect democracy where the top vote-getter doesn't get into office.  In other systems, vote-getting is irrelevant, like say, in North Korea.

And yet they actually attempt to do good by their citizens and aren't afraid to kick out big money taking over the country, unlike the U.S.

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Why would you give a fast food worker a say in who becomes president? That is straight up retarded.
I guess you are ignorant of the Electoral College system in the US which specifically doesn't allow the fast food worker's vote to directly elect the president.  I guess you are ignorant of quite a lot of things.

You seem to think there are no fast food workers in swing states...

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And guess what? The U.S. now allows citizens to be imprisoned indefinitely without trial. The U.S. now executes citizens without trial.
Cite?

Look up the definition of a "terrorist" under the patriot act and the even worse update. U.S. citizens literally have no rights under law if they are declared terrorists. Literally anyone can be declared a terrorist with no evidence required. Obama executed 2 U.S. citizens without trial, one was a 16 yr old.

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/14/13577464/obama-farewell-speech-torture-drones-nsa-surveillance-trump

Quote
At least Putin seems to actually look out for Russia. Putin doesn't have to pander to lobbyists and foreign governments like every U.S. politician.

Let's face it, Russia has a superior form of government in many ways.
Well, in the ways that allow Putin and a dozen of his friends to rape the Russian economy and the nation's resources for personal gain.  Meanwhile, since they literally have complete control of Russian media (having murdered, imprisoned or exiled all the legitimate journalists), they get to set the agenda and decide all the talking points for the citizens.  Naturally, a lot of Russians are therefore happy with their government, in the way that many North Koreans are virulently pro Kim Jong-eun.

But, what goes around comes around.  Eventually, Putin's control will fail, just as the Soviet system on which it is based failed.  Remember, he's not called the Butcher of Grozny for nothing. 

At least the Russian people actually know who rules them rather than some vague idea about big money being in charge. Putin actually has to be accountable in a way U.S. politicians aren't.

I am worried about the coming Trump administration, but am convinced that American institutions of liberal democracy are strong enough to withstand their fascist onslaught.  The fact that millions more citizens voted against him than for him gives cause for hope.  Eventually, our better nature will triumph, because, I believe, what goes around comes around. 

What exactly are you worried about with Trump? Let me guess, some vague platitudes about racism and sexism based upon his opposition's propaganda? A classic example of the idiocy of democracy - the guy hasn't even taken office and you believe he is tyrant. Ya, you aren't easily manipulated at all  :laugh:

We're living in a dangerous time, where the basic ideals of civil society are under siege--personal matters of sexual identity, control of one's own body, religious freedom, expression, safety...seem to depend on the next election. 

Give a single concrete example. Or even just a quote indicating any of this. You are the problem with democracy, the TV can convince you of absolutely anything. Nothing has happened and there is zero indication anything is going to happen and yet you are convinced Donald Trump is literally Hitler  :laugh:

People like you, waygookkorea, espouse ideas that are a threat to civil society and I call on you to admit so, or to renounce them: Putin (and Kim, by extention) is good, the right of the people to petition the government for redress of grievances (lobbying) is bad, freedom of the press is not really relevant since it doesn't exist in Russia which has in many ways a superior form of government ....

The threat to civil society is giving power to every idiot over the age of 18. People are inherently selfish and vote in what they perceive to be their own self interest or ideals. The problem goes even further when you realize most people simply vote for 1 of 2 political parties based upon who their parents raised them to vote for. The problem goes even further when you realize people don't vote based upon actions but rather meaningless rhetoric designed to appeal to their emotions. The problem goes even further when you realize politicians can literally tell complete lies and no one cares so long as their speeches hit the right emotional buttons.

Democracy is absolutely terrible and no sane person can defend it. Democracy is the perfect system for the few to absolutely **** the many.

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Russia vs USA
« Reply #128 on: January 18, 2017, 10:28:04 AM »
Whether democracy is good or not depends on the conditions within a country. Democracy can give you Lincoln or Hitler. On the whole, I would say that western nations with a long history of democracy are on balance, better with it, even if the "idiots" get a say (and those "idiots" are often anything but). That is not to say this idea is infallible and will not produce negative results. On the other hand a country like Iraq or Syria, minus a strong authoritarian leader, might descend into bloodletting and ethnic strife leading to millions killed and wars that spill over into other countries.

Also, what "represents" the country does not necessarily have to be democratic. I think it's fair to say that Putin does "represent" the will of a clear majority of Russians. That they favor a more orderly autocratic form of government does not invalidate his rule.

I think anyone who believes in some sort of Platonic ideal form of government is a nitwit. Human nature guarantees that any form of government will eventually become corrupted. There are democracies that turn into kleptocracies and dictatorships that provide relative stability and cohesion in society.

No need to keep repeating yourself. We get it, you love third world dictatorships and you hate pesky things like America, human rights, and unassassinated journalists.

What human rights were involved in U.S. drone strikes that killed civilians? Warrantless wiretaps?

Is Russia innocent? No and they don't really try and pretend to be. Is the U.S. innocent? No and we should stop pretending that they are.

That's not "hating" America. One doesn't "hate" America when they take stances like those of Ron and Rand Paul against our national security state. It's called The Constitution and not policing the world.

Offline MayorHaggar

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Re: Russia vs USA
« Reply #129 on: January 18, 2017, 11:37:15 AM »

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Russia vs USA
« Reply #130 on: January 18, 2017, 12:55:45 PM »
Fine.

If you accept the premise that we have to deal with a variety of regimes, not all of whom share our vision of an ideal or at least benevolent regime constitutes, then you are left with whether the benefits of interaction outweigh the costs.

I think better relations with Russia are in our best interests. I think that if we cooperate with Russia in defeating ISIS and stabilizing the Assad regime, we can eliminate ISIS' base of operations and deal a major blow to the Caliphate. With ISIS territory under joint US/Allied-Syrian-Russian control we can begin to bring stability to the region. We'd also be in a position to negotiate with Assad- perhaps recognition in exchange for relinquishing some territory to both a Kurdish state and a Sunni one in Iraqi-Syrian territory. Balkanize the region along ethnic lines. To the Kurds they get Iraqi and Syrian Kurdistan in exchange for relinquishing all claims to Iranian and Turkish areas that have Kurdish populations. Obviously this is oversimplified, but this is waygook.

The alternative is that proposed by the Clintonistas and the NeoCons- backing "moderate" rebels with links to Al-Qaeda, ineffective drone strikes, ISIS retains territory, continued bloodshed, and a tense relationship with Russia.

In other relationships we could negotiate an end to sanctions on Russia in exchange for reducing stockpiles of Nuclear Weapons, potential cooperation on the North Korean issue, cheap imports of natural gas which would stimulate the economy, and perhaps walking back NATO from Russia's border and not giving countries such as Estonia and Georgia the power to drag us into armed confrontation with Russia over some strip of land on their borders. Obviously we would make sure to tell Russia that any attempted full annexation of a currently recognized independent country would be unacceptable, but other than that, give Russia relatively free-reign in its backyard, similar to us and the Monroe Doctrine. We would acknowledge Russia's Crimea claims and if there were to be any partition of Ukraine, provided that was through a fair and free referendum agreed upon by the Ukrainian people, that we would promise not to interfere and both sides would respect whatever outcome took place.

However Russia wants to run its government is up to them. We have relationships with the Chinese, the Saudis, and various other authoritarian regimes and there's no reason that we can't with Russia as well provided it is in our interests.

Now one might say that this is the next Munich Pact and we'd be no better than Chamberlain or be setting ourselves up for Molotov-Ribbentrop, Part Deux. Of course on the other hand taking an increasingly lordly and victorious stance against Russia might end up being more like Versailles and less like Munich. It's a fine line.

Regardless, Russia does not seem to have any strong desires for conquest. There's been no massive upscaling of military forces. Russian shipyards aren't churning out submarines. Russian Army strength hasn't dramatically increased in size. There is no indication that Putin is preparing for, or has any desire to fight, a major war of conquest.

I have to ask- are some of the people against increased ties with Russia against the idea on principle or simply because it's a position shared by Donald Trump? if it's the former, let's hear a sound argument (not a few drive by sentences accusing people of "hating" human rights and America). If it's the latter, then I think they should re-evaluate their thinking and whether being reflexively against something simply because a certain person supports it is a sound method of decision making.

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Re: Russia vs USA
« Reply #131 on: January 18, 2017, 02:24:38 PM »
Ukraine, 2014. Victor Yanukovych

You think that was the U.S.?

This is what Wikipedia says:

Quote
On 22 February, the Ukrainian parliament voted to remove him from his post, on the grounds that he was unable to fulfill his duties.[14] Although the legislative removal by an impeachment procedure would have lacked the number of votes required by Ukraine's constitution,[15] the resolution did not follow the impeachment procedure but instead established that Yanukovych "withdrew from his duties in an unconstitutional manner" and citing "circumstances of extreme urgency",[16][17] a situation for which there was no stipulation in the then-current Ukrainian constitution.[18] Parliament set 25 May as the date for the special election to select his replacement,[14][19][20][21] and, two days later, issued a warrant for his arrest, accusing him of "mass killing of civilians."[22]

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Re: Russia vs USA
« Reply #132 on: January 18, 2017, 02:34:05 PM »
How many democratically elected governments has the U.S. toppled in the past 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, etc.? None? Give a specific example. (Of something within the past 40 years.) The more recent the better.

How long have we got? the list is endless.

It is endless? A list of a single country within the past 40 years? Which isn't even correct. Again how many democratically elected governments has the U.S. toppled in the past 40 years? Past 50 years? One would assume many if the U.S. is really the evil empire you claim it to be.

Offline waygookkorea

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Re: Russia vs USA
« Reply #133 on: January 18, 2017, 02:47:43 PM »
How many democratically elected governments has the U.S. toppled in the past 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, etc.? None? Give a specific example. (Of something within the past 40 years.) The more recent the better.

How long have we got? the list is endless.

It is endless? A list of a single country within the past 40 years? Which isn't even correct. Again how many democratically elected governments has the U.S. toppled in the past 40 years? Past 50 years? One would assume many if the U.S. is really the evil empire you claim it to be.


So if a country isn't a democracy the U.S. should just topple their government?

The fact that you have to put that little disclaimer on your point is hilarious.

It's no different than declaring holy war or manifest destiny  :laugh:

I mean, if that's what you believe then fine but don't act like you have some kind of moral high ground because attacking foreign countries without any cause other than spreading your belief system isn't exactly the pinnacle of morality.

Offline MayorHaggar

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Re: Russia vs USA
« Reply #134 on: January 18, 2017, 02:56:43 PM »
Ukraine, 2014. Victor Yanukovych

You think that was the U.S.?

This is what Wikipedia says:

Quote
On 22 February, the Ukrainian parliament voted to remove him from his post, on the grounds that he was unable to fulfill his duties.[14] Although the legislative removal by an impeachment procedure would have lacked the number of votes required by Ukraine's constitution,[15] the resolution did not follow the impeachment procedure but instead established that Yanukovych "withdrew from his duties in an unconstitutional manner" and citing "circumstances of extreme urgency",[16][17] a situation for which there was no stipulation in the then-current Ukrainian constitution.[18] Parliament set 25 May as the date for the special election to select his replacement,[14][19][20][21] and, two days later, issued a warrant for his arrest, accusing him of "mass killing of civilians."[22]

Eh, expect a bunch of Russian troll propaganda from the usual suspects about how brave humble man of the people Yanukovych was brutally ousted by a bunch of Nazi Ukrainians. Never mind that Yanukovych was incredibly corrupt and a Putin puppet and eventually the Ukrainians had enough of being screwed over by a bunch of sleazy foreigners.

This is what happened the last time Putin tried installing a puppet in a foreign country:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2565697/House-fit-tyrant-Protestors-storm-sprawling-luxury-estate-Ukraines-fugitive-president-private-zoo-golf-course-half-size-Monaco.html

Hey, if ya can't beat 'em or install a corrupt puppet as their president, just annex 'em!

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Re: Russia vs USA
« Reply #135 on: January 18, 2017, 02:58:43 PM »
WaygookKorea, I don't need a disclaimer on my point. I was responding to this:

In recent years American freedoms have been seriously eroded at home.

Abroad, they now show a similar contempt for democracy as they topple democratically elected governments and replace them with puppet leaders who will look after US interests.

They used to believe in being a benevolent superpower.

A benevolent superpower would foster democracy in other nations, not try to enslave and subordinate them to US interests.

Offline Mr.DeMartino

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Re: Russia vs USA
« Reply #136 on: January 18, 2017, 03:17:30 PM »
Eh, expect a bunch of Russian troll propaganda from the usual suspects about how brave humble man of the people Yanukovych was brutally ousted by a bunch of Nazi Ukrainians. Never mind that Yanukovych was incredibly corrupt and a Putin puppet and eventually the Ukrainians had enough of being screwed over by a bunch of sleazy foreigners.

This is what happened the last time Putin tried installing a puppet in a foreign country:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2565697/House-fit-tyrant-Protestors-storm-sprawling-luxury-estate-Ukraines-fugitive-president-private-zoo-golf-course-half-size-Monaco.html

Hey, if ya can't beat 'em or install a corrupt puppet as their president, just annex 'em!

So our we backed our SOB and Putin backed his SOB and both sides were SOBs in achieving their goals.

No one is arguing that Putin is some sort of benevolent ruler. What we are disagreeing with is your presentation of the United States as some sort of innocent party who consistently acts in a virtuous manner for democracy.

Do you not see anything wrong with regime change, meddling in the internal affairs of other countries to further United States interests, and THEN getting upset with other countries when they engage in the exact same thing.

Look, there's a way to argue this- "Yes we do nasty things to. We ill do nasty things in the future, but I think it's in America's best interests to confront and beat Putin with interventions and meddling in other countries." That's a fair argument to make. But stop pretending that we don't do the same thing and then getting upset when someone else does it and that somehow makes them evil in comparison to us.

If you're an idealist, then you should seriously question America's past actions when it comes to intervention and meddling. If you're a realist, then you shouldn't pretend that America is some sort of virtuous actor. That's all we're trying to say.

Also, do you really think everyone who is disagreeing with you is some sort of Russian troll? You're delusional.

Offline Aurata

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Re: Russia vs USA
« Reply #137 on: January 18, 2017, 08:26:53 PM »
A list of a single country within the past 40 years?

Why are all the ones more than 50 years ago suddenly not valid to you?
It proved my original point that the US topples foreign governments (which hippo couldn't bring himself to believe).


You guys must be out of breath, moving goalposts all day long.


Why would you arbitrarily stipulate within 50 years? It couldn't be because you think the files haven't been declassified yet? could it?

But if you insist.. here:

A) countries where Washington attempted regime change but failed, or has thus far failed:


Costa Rica 1970-71

Angola 1975, 1980s

Zaire 1975

Seychelles 1979-81

South Yemen 1982-84

Suriname 1982-84

Libya 1980s

Iraq 1991

Somalia 1993

Somalia 2007- present

Syria 2012


B) List of governments the US succeeded in toppling:


Chile 1964-73

Greece 1967

Bolivia 1971

Australia 1973-75

Portugal 1974-76

Jamaica 1976-80

Chad 1981-82

Grenada 1983

Fiji 1987

Nicaragua 1981-90

Panama 1989

Bulgaria 1990

Albania 1991

Afghanistan 1980s

Yugoslavia 1999-2000

Ecuador 2000

Afghanistan 2001

Venezuela 2002

Iraq 2003

Haiti 2004

Libya 2011

Ukraine 2014


And that's not even counting the individual leaders that they've had removed. There was also all those latin American leaders they framed or colour-revolutioned out. Dilma Rousseff, Cristina De Kirchner..etc etc.

Who's next? They're currently trying to get Maduro of Venezuela, and Duterte of the Philippines out. Its obvious they're in the crosshairs because the mass media has started the usual preliminary campaign of demonization.. which always precedes either a coup of US military intervention.



Quote
Q: Why will there never be a coup d'e'tat in Washington?
A: Because there's no American embassy there.


Quote
To place the coup in Ukraine in historical context, this is at least the 80th time the United States has organized a coup or a failed coup in a foreign country since 1953.  That was when President Eisenhower discovered in Iran that the CIA could overthrow elected governments who refused to sacrifice the future of their people to Western commercial and geopolitical interests.  Most U.S. coups have led to severe repression, disappearances, extrajudicial executions, torture, corruption, extreme poverty and inequality, and prolonged setbacks for the democratic aspirations of people in the countries affected.  The plutocratic and ultra-conservative nature of the forces the U.S. has brought to power in Ukraine make it unlikely to be an exception.
http://www.alternet.org/world/americas-coup-machine-destroying-democracy-1953
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Offline MayorHaggar

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Re: Russia vs USA
« Reply #138 on: January 18, 2017, 09:16:40 PM »
Eh, expect a bunch of Russian troll propaganda from the usual suspects about how brave humble man of the people Yanukovych was brutally ousted by a bunch of Nazi Ukrainians. Never mind that Yanukovych was incredibly corrupt and a Putin puppet and eventually the Ukrainians had enough of being screwed over by a bunch of sleazy foreigners.

This is what happened the last time Putin tried installing a puppet in a foreign country:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2565697/House-fit-tyrant-Protestors-storm-sprawling-luxury-estate-Ukraines-fugitive-president-private-zoo-golf-course-half-size-Monaco.html

Hey, if ya can't beat 'em or install a corrupt puppet as their president, just annex 'em!

So our we backed our SOB and Putin backed his SOB and both sides were SOBs in achieving their goals.

No one is arguing that Putin is some sort of benevolent ruler. What we are disagreeing with is your presentation of the United States as some sort of innocent party who consistently acts in a virtuous manner for democracy.

Do you not see anything wrong with regime change, meddling in the internal affairs of other countries to further United States interests, and THEN getting upset with other countries when they engage in the exact same thing.

Look, there's a way to argue this- "Yes we do nasty things to. We ill do nasty things in the future, but I think it's in America's best interests to confront and beat Putin with interventions and meddling in other countries." That's a fair argument to make. But stop pretending that we don't do the same thing and then getting upset when someone else does it and that somehow makes them evil in comparison to us.

If you're an idealist, then you should seriously question America's past actions when it comes to intervention and meddling. If you're a realist, then you shouldn't pretend that America is some sort of virtuous actor. That's all we're trying to say.

Also, do you really think everyone who is disagreeing with you is some sort of Russian troll? You're delusional.

Again literally using stale old propaganda tactics from the Soviet era to defend brutal dictators.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Online Adel

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Putan, Prostitutes and Pissgate
« Reply #139 on: January 19, 2017, 03:09:53 AM »
Some context for that pissgate story from the Lamestream!



As a side note, I was just wondering whether comrade Aurata might be interested in substantiating  comrade Putin's claims about their Ladies of night?
Is it true that they are undoubtedly the best in the world?

PS. I doubt he was just taking the piss!
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 06:58:41 PM by Adel »

 



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