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Author Topic: Michael Brown- Another Trayvon?  (Read 96400 times)

Offline timcraymond

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Re: Michael Brown- Another Trayvon?
« Reply #620 on: September 25, 2014, 12:53:17 PM »
I think waygo0k responded better than I did.

Offline GoCyclones

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Re: Michael Brown- Another Trayvon?
« Reply #621 on: September 25, 2014, 03:04:11 PM »
Waygook, first ask yourself whether or not these young black men bought into a thug culture propagated by rap music, then didn't end up with the money and hoes they dreamed of achieving? Are they angry that they don't have these things?  Is that why they riot? Or are they angry that they cannot get a job.... perhaps  BECAUSE a thug culture was the only education they bothered to excel in?  And now looking, acting, speaking like a thug is not what employers want?  Whose fault is that?

Did they bother to study in school? Did they have parents to help them, or do they suffer from the black community problem of absent fathers? Did they have any role model to raise them right and lead them?

Is this still the white man's fault?

More importantly, what did you, assuming you are a black man (or even if you are white), do differently than these guys to become self-sufficient?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 03:09:25 PM by GoCyclones »

Offline GoCyclones

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Re: Michael Brown- Another Trayvon?
« Reply #622 on: September 25, 2014, 03:14:34 PM »
I agree.  Blacks are not inferior.  In fact, the USA is wasting minds and resources by not harnessing the collective potential of the black community.  The next Einstein could be a black kid from Chicago.  Will he receive the start he needs to reach his potential?

The poison is black culture, as it is today.  Imho, it is a terrible hinderance.

Offline Rumbledy Hump

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Re: Michael Brown- Another Trayvon?
« Reply #623 on: September 25, 2014, 03:19:01 PM »
Waygook, first ask yourself whether or not these young black men bought into a thug culture propagated by rap music, then didn't end up with the money and hoes they dreamed of achieving? Are they angry that they don't have these things?  Is that why they riot? Or are they angry that they cannot get a job.... perhaps  BECAUSE a thug culture was the only education they bothered to excel in?  And now looking, acting, speaking like a thug is not what employers want?  Whose fault is that?

Did they bother to study in school? Did they have parents to help them, or do they suffer from the black community problem of absent fathers? Did they have any role model to raise them right and lead them?

Is this still the white man's fault?

More importantly, what did you, assuming you are a black man (or even if you are white), do differently than these guys to become self-sufficient?

People aren't rioting because of thug culture. The history of these acts far predates that.

But yeah, you bring up some good points about role models. I'm sure slavery and institutionalized discrimination (which occurred more recently than WWII and many people remember) along with limited social economic opportunities to follow has done a number on many families. How is it any individual's fault if they're born into a family with bad or absent role models?

Saying it's the white man's fault is childish, no matter what side of the debate your on. Better to say that many white ancestors had a hand in shaping present day conditions and today everyone has a responsibility to address that. In particular, some white people need to look at how their assumptions about race (and culture) today contrast with historical context and become educated about the reality of race and experience.

As far as I can tell, waygook isn't lambasting white people in general. Just the bastions of discrimination that persevere.
But how do I know what to lick and what not to lick?

Offline waygo0k

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Re: Michael Brown- Another Trayvon?
« Reply #624 on: September 25, 2014, 03:27:38 PM »
Waygook, first ask yourself whether or not these young black men bought into a thug culture propagated by rap music, then didn't end up with the money and hoes they dreamed of achieving? Are they angry that they don't have these things?  Is that why they riot? Or are they angry that they cannot get a job.... perhaps  BECAUSE a thug culture was the only education they bothered to excel in?  And now looking, acting, speaking like a thug is not what employers want?  Whose fault is that?

Did they bother to study in school? Did they have parents to help them, or do they suffer from the black community problem of absent fathers? Did they have any role model to raise them right and lead them?

Is this still the white man's fault?

More importantly, what did you, assuming you are a black man (or even if you are white), do differently than these guys to become self-sufficient?

It's all fine and dandy when you blatantly ignore the history behind the point you're trying to make.

You might as well be asking "why are Native Americans so impoverished in their own ancestral homeland when White Americans are so successful?"

or

"why is there so much poverty in the Aboriginal community in Australia compared to the rest of the population?".

Offline CDW

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Re: Michael Brown- Another Trayvon?
« Reply #625 on: September 25, 2014, 05:25:26 PM »
This thread breaks my heart. We are educators. So many posters are ignoring context and history and are generally unwilling to engage with others. It's become a shouting-match. It's become an effort to discount individuals.

Statements like "There is too much racial solidarity within the black community." and "Waygook is obviously VERY racist, and it's sickening." are difficult to read. It seems to me this entire thread is about narrowing the conversation, trying to find the one right answer, when what we should be doing is broadening the conversation. Making it bigger. Learning. Can't we use this case to explore the institutional racism that America does exhibit? And it does exhibit it. That's not up for debate, you guys. Come on. Can't we have more reflective posts, where people think about reasons why they might believe what they believe? Where posters think about the assumptions and prejudices they have (that we all necessarily have) and consider how they might change, however slightly? This case can be a catalyst, not an end-game. CDW, why did you need to say "too much" and "cheered." Why those choices? Can you really sum up "solidarity" and the politics of the OJ trial in four sentences? Posts like this try to shut down dialogue, not open it up.

Where I stand on this case doesn't matter. I don't think most of the arguments here could pass the Freshmen Rhetoric course I used to teach to 18-year-olds.

Anyway, my practical point. I think this thread should be shut down, or the moderators should do a better job cleaning it up. You don't deserve a spot in the conversation if you don't think critically. I guess I think that goes for most threads on this site, not just this one.
The truth hurts doesn't it? If you object to my statement about racial solidarity you might want to ask yourself why black mobs were burning, looting, and vandalizing businesses in Ferguson even before many of the details of the case had become known. I am not a racist, but I am not a cultural relativist. I am not saying that blacks are racially and inherently inferior. I am criticizing their culture not their race. Some things have got to change. There are lots of cultural practices all over the world that many would find objectional. Beating your wife, for example, has long been an accepted and encouraged practice in Korean culture. A Korean proverb states, "If you don't beat your woman for three days, she becomes a fox." Is someone who criticizes this aspect of Korean culture a racist?

Maybe it's the same reason why people rioted in LA in 1992. Perhaps it's the same reason why people rioted in D.C in 1968....or the 2010 riot in Oakland.

Have you ever asked yourself why these riots happen whenever a black person gets killed/brutalized by the police? Have you ever asked yourself why justice is almost never served in these cases involving wrongful police murder/brutality?

Probably not....the answer to these questions would only show you how flawed your logic is.
People keep bringing up the "historical context" when things like this happen, but that's often just a convenient way to shut down the debate when people disagree with you. What if racism had nothing to do with the reason why Officer Wilson shot Brown? So much for the "historical context".  The Rodney King incident was a poor excuse for the LA riots- especially considering they resulted in over 50 deaths. The jury that acquitted the police officers saw the first part of the video in which King, who was likely high on PCP, charged one of the officers. That part of the video was edited out by the media when it was shown on TV. Odd that the "racist" police officers never laid a hand on the other black passengers who remained in the car. The officers actually followed police procedure by the book when dealing with King. Odd that when a lot of such cases are examined in detail they appear to be a lot less racist than people like Waygo0k would have us believe.

Offline Rumbledy Hump

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Re: Michael Brown- Another Trayvon?
« Reply #626 on: September 25, 2014, 05:53:59 PM »
People keep bringing up the "historical context" when things like this happen, but that's often just a convenient way to shut down the debate when people disagree with you. What if racism had nothing to do with the reason why Officer Wilson shot Brown? So much for the "historical context".  The Rodney King incident was a poor excuse for the LA riots- especially considering they resulted in over 50 deaths. The jury that acquitted the police officers saw the first part of the video in which King, who was likely high on PCP, charged one of the officers. That part of the video was edited out by the media when it was shown on TV. Odd that the "racist" police officers never laid a hand on the other black passengers who remained in the car. The officers actually followed police procedure by the book when dealing with King. Odd that when a lot of such cases are examined in detail they appear to be a lot less racist than people like Waygo0k would have us believe.

That's the pot calling the kettle black (get it? that's a race joke). You just dismiss anything said about historical context (no need for quotes because it's real) without addressing it. That seems like a convenient way to "shut down the debate."

You talk so much about black culture, yet refuse to look at how this culture was shaped. The fact that you can't even comment on history makes the distinction you've drawn between culture and race seem a weak veil for racism.

BTW, tell me what police procedure lays out beating a man while he's down. At this point, does it matter if he's charged the officers? They're the police, not the judge jury and executioner, although the merging of these roles seems to be a simply fine idea by many of you.

But how do I know what to lick and what not to lick?

Offline waygo0k

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Re: Michael Brown- Another Trayvon?
« Reply #627 on: September 25, 2014, 06:01:23 PM »
It was proven Rodney King was not on PCP as the officer suggested.

Like virtually all of the riots that succeeded police murder/brutality cases, tensions build up over time as the authorities abuse their powers in targeting and harassing target a specific population. These riots do not just spring out of the blue, they are a direct result of people that are tired of having to worry for their lives whenever they interact with the police.

The Rodney King incident was the spark that ignited the forest fire, just like the Michael Brown shooting ignited years of building tension over Ferguson PD's unfounded and often illegal harassment of its black citizens.

I know you cannot relate to it because you've never had to experience what these people have gone through and are going through, but if you cannot fathom the basic concept that there is a consistent pattern to these riots, then you have a very serious cognitive problem.
That or you're just racist/bigoted/both as f**k.

Offline SeoulCaliber

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Re: Michael Brown- Another Trayvon?
« Reply #628 on: September 25, 2014, 06:09:45 PM »
It's always "historical context" when it comes to blacks, be they in America, Australia, the entire African continent or anywhere else - all of their failures is the fault of the white man. It's getting really tiring, and at this point in time, pretty damn pathetic. Every excuse under the sun but never trying to better themselves or their lot in life.

Offline waygo0k

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Re: Michael Brown- Another Trayvon?
« Reply #629 on: September 25, 2014, 06:12:13 PM »
It's always "historical context" when it comes to blacks, be they in America, Australia, the entire African continent or anywhere else - all of their failures is the fault of the white man. It's getting really tiring, and at this point in time, pretty damn pathetic. Every excuse under the sun but never trying to better themselves or their lot in life.

point proven.

You're tired of hearing about it? Try living through it.

You're probably one of those guys that scream racism when an ajumma refuses to sit next to you on the bus.

Offline SeoulCaliber

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Re: Michael Brown- Another Trayvon?
« Reply #630 on: September 25, 2014, 06:34:40 PM »
Well, as people say on this very site: If you don't like it, leave. I'm sure Africa would welcome you back with open arms.

Offline waygo0k

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Re: Michael Brown- Another Trayvon?
« Reply #631 on: September 25, 2014, 06:49:03 PM »
Well, as people say on this very site: If you don't like it, leave. I'm sure Africa would welcome you back with open arms.

And as others have said on this very same site: stop being such an apologist cop-out. Unlike you, I wasn't brought up to be a quitter.

Offline cereal killer

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Re: Michael Brown- Another Trayvon?
« Reply #632 on: September 25, 2014, 09:33:00 PM »
Well, as people say on this very site: If you don't like it, leave. I'm sure Africa would welcome you back with open arms.
 

Well, Korea is also a good option for him because he can "relate" to being the victim. Blacks and Koreans..always the victims :cry:.

Offline waygo0k

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Re: Michael Brown- Another Trayvon?
« Reply #633 on: September 25, 2014, 10:49:05 PM »
Well, as people say on this very site: If you don't like it, leave. I'm sure Africa would welcome you back with open arms.
 

Well, Korea is also a good option for him because he can "relate" to being the victim. Blacks and Koreans..always the victims :cry:.

cereal killer...always the mind-numbing troll  :cry:

Offline CDW

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Re: Michael Brown- Another Trayvon?
« Reply #634 on: September 25, 2014, 11:10:46 PM »
People keep bringing up the "historical context" when things like this happen, but that's often just a convenient way to shut down the debate when people disagree with you. What if racism had nothing to do with the reason why Officer Wilson shot Brown? So much for the "historical context".  The Rodney King incident was a poor excuse for the LA riots- especially considering they resulted in over 50 deaths. The jury that acquitted the police officers saw the first part of the video in which King, who was likely high on PCP, charged one of the officers. That part of the video was edited out by the media when it was shown on TV. Odd that the "racist" police officers never laid a hand on the other black passengers who remained in the car. The officers actually followed police procedure by the book when dealing with King. Odd that when a lot of such cases are examined in detail they appear to be a lot less racist than people like Waygo0k would have us believe.

That's the pot calling the kettle black (get it? that's a race joke). You just dismiss anything said about historical context (no need for quotes because it's real) without addressing it. That seems like a convenient way to "shut down the debate."

You talk so much about black culture, yet refuse to look at how this culture was shaped. The fact that you can't even comment on history makes the distinction you've drawn between culture and race seem a weak veil for racism.

BTW, tell me what police procedure lays out beating a man while he's down. At this point, does it matter if he's charged the officers? They're the police, not the judge jury and executioner, although the merging of these roles seems to be a simply fine idea by many of you.
I'm quite happy to shut down the debate when it ventures into irrelevant territory. I haven't seen any evidence that Officer Wilson shot Brown for racist reasons, but I am aware that certain people have a talent for turning anything into something racist. People that riot because of rumors of racial injustice make themselves look foolish.

The police officers in the Rodney King case followed their training to subdue an aggressive suspect. They were allowed to hit a suspect on certain areas of his body with their batons.

"From this point on, the defense used slow-motion replays to demonstrate that Powell and Wind -- the only two defendants who ever strike King with batons -- are, in fact, frequently pausing to observe King's behavior. Whenever King moves his arm toward his waistband -- remember, the officers have not been able to search King -- they hit him. When King appears to get back into a push-up position or pulls his knees up under him -- the positions from which he has twice before risen to his feet and advanced upon the officers -- they hit him.

"This doesn't shock me. If ordinary-sized police officers are trying to control a violent, resisting suspect who is the size of a professional football player (let alone one who has not yet been searched for a gun), I think it is unrealistic to say that they cannot strike him until he has regained his feet. Two defense experts testified that it is proper under such circumstances to hit a downed suspect who is trying to get up. King does momentarily make it to his feet for a third time during this segment of the tape, but he is beaten down to the ground. Numerous prosecution and defense witnesses testified that the defendants yelled at King to get down in the spread-eagle prone position throughout the beating....

"Now, at some point, watching the tape, I, like everyone else, become sickened. Looking at the tape in my living room, I say, 'For Christ's sake, why didn't they just give up on trying to get King into the goddamn prone position?' (Ultimately, of course, the four officers did just that; they swarmed King while he was in a sitting position.)

"On the other hand, Los Angeles police officers are trained to force suspects into the prone position, because that is the procedure that is supposed to best guarantee their own safety. If that procedure and training ought to be reexamined, the time and place to reform it is not a criminal prosecution of four officers who were required to follow it."
https://www.soc.umn.edu/~samaha/cases/parloff_jury_right.htm

The LA Riots resulted 58 deaths and $16 billion in damage- all because of foolish rioters who made assumptions without knowing the full story. It's certainly not a proud moment for African Americans.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 11:12:40 PM by CDW »

Offline waygo0k

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Re: Michael Brown- Another Trayvon?
« Reply #635 on: September 25, 2014, 11:27:45 PM »
Just in case anybody's wondering what CDW's talking about, this is the full video. CDW is trying to justify a brutal police beating by stating the officers that brutalized Rodney King followed "official police procedure" by continuously kicking and beating a downed suspect....something 2 of the officers were later found guilty of and jailed for by the DoJ


Offline waygo0k

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Re: Michael Brown- Another Trayvon?
« Reply #636 on: September 26, 2014, 12:02:48 AM »
Furthermore CDW, you're talking as if the people were solely rioting because of Rodney King's beating.

The atmosphere between LAPD and the black residents in that region was already toxic due to the severely strained relationship between the two groups....with LAPD embroiled in case after case of misconduct charges and accusations, and most of the cases being thrown out before even maturing.

The Rodney King case was simply the straw that broke the camel's back.

Offline SeoulCaliber

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Re: Michael Brown- Another Trayvon?
« Reply #637 on: September 26, 2014, 12:44:01 AM »
wayGOOK lives in some weird world where black people are always innocent, have done no harm whatsoever and ANY slight towards a black person from a white person is purely because of racism, and not because of anything that the kind and innocent and gentle black person has done. Did you know that the whole of Africa was a utopia before the evil racist wicked white man arrived? Ask wayGOOK, it's true. He can provide links.

 



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