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Author Topic: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0  (Read 564305 times)

Online CO2

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #680 on: September 01, 2016, 11:43:04 AM »
If you mispronounce "28" it can end up being a curse word. Fortunately I've an older brother who studied Korean and taught me the distinction.

It's actually 18

28?

Like he gives 2 f*cks

 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Offline cjszk

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #681 on: September 01, 2016, 11:46:01 AM »
It's not like speaking English where you can be understood regardless of accent.
I get what you're getting at, but this isn't exactly 100% true.
Find a monolingual redneck who has never had to deal with anybody with an accent, then stick your coworker in front of them and see exactly how much English can be understood. My guess would be "not so much".

We're all exposed to a great variety of English, and are all to some extent good at parsing broken grammar. Many people aren't, and some of the English that we nod our heads at would confuse the crap out of them.

I suspect that, all things being equal, heavily accented English might be easier to understand than an equally poor Korean... but not by much.

When I was in high school I played WoW and had a 3vs3 arena team (basically a 3 man team in a game) and the other two players I had on my team were a southern cowboy-accented red neck and a person from Singapore. The redneck would constantly complain that he couldn't understand anything the Singaporean was saying, I always have to repeat for the Singaporean...

With that said, English is definitely not simply a language by nature that anyone can be understood regardless of accent. It is actually more the case that we English speakers tend to be more exposed to many various accents due to the world bending over to the English language.

Now to put that into perspective with Korean... it is only recently that many Koreans have heard foreigners speaking crystal clear Korean.

Offline krissyboo75

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #682 on: September 01, 2016, 11:46:38 AM »
If you mispronounce "28" it can end up being a curse word. Fortunately I've an older brother who studied Korean and taught me the distinction.

It's actually 18

28?

Like he gives 2 f*cks

 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Apparently 28 is worse, but I can't remember why.

Offline donovan

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #683 on: September 01, 2016, 11:46:56 AM »
It can also be heard in 38, 78, 118, 1,818... :laugh:

Offline JahMoo

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #684 on: September 01, 2016, 11:52:52 AM »
It's not like speaking English where you can be understood regardless of accent.
I get what you're getting at, but this isn't exactly 100% true.
Find a monolingual redneck who has never had to deal with anybody with an accent, then stick your coworker in front of them and see exactly how much English can be understood. My guess would be "not so much".

We're all exposed to a great variety of English, and are all to some extent good at parsing broken grammar. Many people aren't, and some of the English that we nod our heads at would confuse the crap out of them.

I suspect that, all things being equal, heavily accented English might be easier to understand than an equally poor Korean... but not by much.

But my point is that when you mispronounce English, you aren't accidentally saying completely different English words most of the time. And that adds an extra obstacle to things. Plus English-speakers trying to learn Korean is a relatively new thing here, so almost every Korean you come into contact with is going to be that "monolingual redneck". (I'm not trying to call all Koreans rednecks, this is just for comparison).

Online CO2

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #685 on: September 01, 2016, 12:03:34 PM »
It's not like speaking English where you can be understood regardless of accent.
I get what you're getting at, but this isn't exactly 100% true.
Find a monolingual redneck who has never had to deal with anybody with an accent, then stick your coworker in front of them and see exactly how much English can be understood. My guess would be "not so much".

We're all exposed to a great variety of English, and are all to some extent good at parsing broken grammar. Many people aren't, and some of the English that we nod our heads at would confuse the crap out of them.

I suspect that, all things being equal, heavily accented English might be easier to understand than an equally poor Korean... but not by much.

But my point is that when you mispronounce English, you aren't accidentally saying completely different English words most of the time. And that adds an extra obstacle to things. Plus English-speakers trying to learn Korean is a relatively new thing here, so almost every Korean you come into contact with is going to be that "monolingual redneck". (I'm not trying to call all Koreans rednecks, this is just for comparison).
It's true, responsibility/respunsibility/respensibility/respinsibility are all the same, virtually. You fu*k up an 아 where an 어 should have been? Total nightmare. 

Online CO2

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #686 on: September 01, 2016, 12:15:39 PM »
To be fair though, some peoples' Korean pronunciation is so cringe-worthy that I can completely understand why Korean's don't like hearing it.

Someone butchering a few Korean words and and getting frustrated when someone doesn't get it is the equivalent of when old people just bust out the "hello-hello-wa-you-from? a-mae-li-ca?" because those are the few English words they bothered to learn and they think they're understandable.

Koreans do tend to have a bit of a harder time understanding poor Korean than we do understanding poor English, BUT - yeah, some people, there's a reason nobody understands what you're saying. Because you're literally saying it wrong.

You literally use literally in literally all of your posts. 

Online Mister Tim

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #687 on: September 01, 2016, 12:19:25 PM »

But my point is that when you mispronounce English, you aren't accidentally saying completely different English words most of the time. And that adds an extra obstacle to things. Plus English-speakers trying to learn Korean is a relatively new thing here, so almost every Korean you come into contact with is going to be that "monolingual redneck". (I'm not trying to call all Koreans rednecks, this is just for comparison).

Shit down!
I went to the Jew.
I like science and meth.
Crap your hands!
Who wants more lice?

I'm sure everyone on this site has heard those and many, many more while teaching here. There are myriad English words that mean something completely different when mispronounced. I think the second half of your post there is much more relevant. They aren't used to hearing foreigners try to speak their language, but we are.

Offline welcomebackkotter

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #688 on: September 01, 2016, 12:24:22 PM »
Re: current conversation on learning Korean

Anyone else get the Korean StareTM? You know, when you say something in what you know is perfectly comprehensible Korean and they look at you like you just sprouted a second head and don't even respond to what you said? I feel like that's definitely been the biggest deterrent to me learning Korean in Korea. I still study vocab every day and I got a dang minor in Korean back in university,  but both while studying abroad in Korea and now that I'm working here I felt that Koreans really don't want to speak to Korean language learners.

Probably even worse is when you're struggling to express yourself and they don't offer any words to help. Personally, even before getting licensed to teach and coming over here, if I was talking to a non-native speaker and what they were saying was confusing, I'd ask clarifying questions or suggest words or rephrase what they were saying to make sure I understood. I never get that here. Just the blank stare. Talk about demoralizing!

The two biggest things that put me off continuing to study Korean:

- Anything less than absolute accuracy with grammar, pronunciation and politeness (see CO2's story), then you might as well be speaking Swahili to a Korean person.

- Koreans never, ever slow down when speaking Korean to a foreigner.  It's like an alien concept to them. 

I can't remember who it was but someone on this site made a great point about speaking English to a Korean person; you have to constantly "ride the brake".  I can't understand why Koreans don't do it for us.

These above quotes and a few of the other comments since capture my problems with learning Korean. I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets this. 

It reminds me of the time, early in my stint here, when I went to order a coffee.  Young kid behind the counter, and sure, my pronunciation could not have been perfect, but I was trying....
Me: Coppi joo-say-oh. 
Him: Korean Stare.
Me: cop-pee joo-sah-yoh?
Him: Korean Stare plus tilt of head.
Me: Koppee jew-say-yo?
Him: Korean Stare into space now.
And this continues for at least three more exchanges before it clicks: Ah, koppee! Neh.
I standing in a god-damm coffee shop!!! A coffee shop you work in!! What did you think I was asking for? The crown jewels? Your mother? What?????!!!!

Obviously my fault for imprecise pronunciation.  No lateral thinking or putting pieces together for that boy. 

 

Offline Loki88

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #689 on: September 01, 2016, 12:34:42 PM »
Re: current conversation on learning Korean

Anyone else get the Korean StareTM? You know, when you say something in what you know is perfectly comprehensible Korean and they look at you like you just sprouted a second head and don't even respond to what you said? I feel like that's definitely been the biggest deterrent to me learning Korean in Korea. I still study vocab every day and I got a dang minor in Korean back in university,  but both while studying abroad in Korea and now that I'm working here I felt that Koreans really don't want to speak to Korean language learners.

Probably even worse is when you're struggling to express yourself and they don't offer any words to help. Personally, even before getting licensed to teach and coming over here, if I was talking to a non-native speaker and what they were saying was confusing, I'd ask clarifying questions or suggest words or rephrase what they were saying to make sure I understood. I never get that here. Just the blank stare. Talk about demoralizing!

The two biggest things that put me off continuing to study Korean:

- Anything less than absolute accuracy with grammar, pronunciation and politeness (see CO2's story), then you might as well be speaking Swahili to a Korean person.

- Koreans never, ever slow down when speaking Korean to a foreigner.  It's like an alien concept to them. 

I can't remember who it was but someone on this site made a great point about speaking English to a Korean person; you have to constantly "ride the brake".  I can't understand why Koreans don't do it for us.

These above quotes and a few of the other comments since capture my problems with learning Korean. I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets this. 

It reminds me of the time, early in my stint here, when I went to order a coffee.  Young kid behind the counter, and sure, my pronunciation could not have been perfect, but I was trying....
Me: Coppi joo-say-oh. 
Him: Korean Stare.
Me: cop-pee joo-sah-yoh?
Him: Korean Stare plus tilt of head.
Me: Koppee jew-say-yo?
Him: Korean Stare into space now.
And this continues for at least three more exchanges before it clicks: Ah, koppee! Neh.
I standing in a god-damm coffee shop!!! A coffee shop you work in!! What did you think I was asking for? The crown jewels? Your mother? What?????!!!!

Obviously my fault for imprecise pronunciation.  No lateral thinking or putting pieces together for that boy. 

 

Tbf, service workers the world over aren't known for their ability to connect the dots.

Offline welcomebackkotter

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #690 on: September 01, 2016, 12:41:59 PM »

It reminds me of the time, early in my stint here, when I went to order a coffee.  Young kid behind the counter, and sure, my pronunciation could not have been perfect, but I was trying....
Me: Coppi joo-say-oh. 
Him: Korean Stare.
Me: cop-pee joo-sah-yoh?
Him: Korean Stare plus tilt of head.
Me: Koppee jew-say-yo?
Him: Korean Stare into space now.
And this continues for at least three more exchanges before it clicks: Ah, koppee! Neh.
I standing in a god-damm coffee shop!!! A coffee shop you work in!! What did you think I was asking for? The crown jewels? Your mother? What?????!!!!

Obviously my fault for imprecise pronunciation.  No lateral thinking or putting pieces together for that boy. 

 

Tbf, service workers the world over aren't known for their ability to connect the dots.

Granted and agreed.  Still pretty frustrating.

Offline DMZabductee

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #691 on: September 01, 2016, 12:44:07 PM »
The two biggest things that put me off continuing to study Korean:

I can't remember who it was but someone on this site made a great point about speaking English to a Korean person; you have to constantly "ride the brake".  I can't understand why Koreans don't do it for us.

Anytime someone hears anything beyond annyonghaseyo they assume you've mastered the entire language and then carry on at light speed. Ughh. I hate it but I've just had to come to the conclusion that it's nobody's job here to be my language partner (outside of my actual language partner ha) so they're not gonna cut me any slack. I know we do it for them but that's kinda our job as teachers, plus we are in their country so  :undecided:

On a positive note though I've finally trained a couple co-workers to speak at a reasonable pace when we speak Korean! It's amazing. They picked up on the fact that I was seriously grading my English when speaking with them and now they return the favor! Hallelujah! Only took 2 years but I'll take it  :laugh:


Offline welcomebackkotter

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #692 on: September 01, 2016, 12:49:14 PM »

It reminds me of the time, early in my stint here, when I went to order a coffee.  Young kid behind the counter, and sure, my pronunciation could not have been perfect, but I was trying....
Me: Coppi joo-say-oh. 
Him: Korean Stare.
Me: cop-pee joo-sah-yoh?
Him: Korean Stare plus tilt of head.
Me: Koppee jew-say-yo?
Him: Korean Stare into space now.
And this continues for at least three more exchanges before it clicks: Ah, koppee! Neh.
I standing in a god-damm coffee shop!!! A coffee shop you work in!! What did you think I was asking for? The crown jewels? Your mother? What?????!!!!

Obviously my fault for imprecise pronunciation.  No lateral thinking or putting pieces together for that boy. 

 

Did you... look at the menu and see if there was an item called 'coffee'?

Imagine walking into Starbucks in Canada or something, and just saying, "Coffee please." They'd probably also wait for you to specify what kind of coffee you want, or be confused.

And then imagine, instead of clarifying, saying to the English speaking cashier or barista, "Cawfee plase. Cuffi plaz. Copy plase," and wondering why it's not working.

It's obviously not your fault completely. Literally every expat here has had some sort of similar experience, but miscommunications are not exclusive to Korea.



Oh I totally understand that he would have needed clarification of my order.  He could have easily babbled something to me in Korean that I could have guessed he needed more info.  It's like walking into Baskins Robbins and asking for "Icecream please".  But the complete non-comprehension of what I was saying, you could see it in his eyes, that was what got me.  When he eventually did repeat "Ah, Koppee." I swear he said it EXACTLY as I said it 5 times earlier (well, at least a couple of the attempts I made).  He actually repeated what I said with a confused look on his face the last time, and then the bulb went off.  I'm sure many of us have had similar experiences and felt like a right dill, not just angry at the Korean, but knowing that it's hard to get right, and you don't get cut any slack, you are rarely met halfway and guided even a little bit, and it's frustrating.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 12:53:01 PM by welcomebackkotter »

Offline The Arm

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #693 on: September 01, 2016, 12:51:50 PM »
I can accept foreigners won't have perfect pronunciation but if you're in a coffee shop then the Korean staffs' ears should be listening out for relevant words.  You're not going to go into a coffee shop and ask for a washing machine.  Just listen.

I was in a restaurant once and I called the waitress over and said "물좀주세요".  She looked at me like I had two heads.  But think...I'm eating in a restaurant so she should already be honing in on specific words.  Even if my pronunciation was terrible, she must have heard the 'm' sound and then the following vowel sound.  So I either want water or radish.  She just carried on staring at me, open-mouthed.

Anyway, I'm flogging a dead horse I know.  I'm making no real attempts to learn Korean these days so I can't exactly moan and complain  :sad:

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #694 on: September 01, 2016, 12:59:17 PM »
I can accept foreigners won't have perfect pronunciation but if you're in a coffee shop then the Korean staffs' ears should be listening out for relevant words.  You're not going to go into a coffee shop and ask for a washing machine.  Just listen.

I was in a restaurant once and I called the waitress over and said "물좀주세요".  She looked at me like I had two heads.  But think...I'm eating in a restaurant so she should already be honing in on specific words.  Even if my pronunciation was terrible, she must have heard the 'm' sound and then the following vowel sound.  So I either want water or radish.  She just carried on staring at me, open-mouthed.

Anyway, I'm flogging a dead horse I know.  I'm making no real attempts to learn Korean these days so I can't exactly moan and complain  :sad:

+1

Offline yirj17

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #695 on: September 01, 2016, 01:03:03 PM »
If you mispronounce "28" it can end up being a curse word. Fortunately I've an older brother who studied Korean and taught me the distinction.

It's actually 18

28?

Like he gives 2 f*cks

 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Apparently 28 is worse, but I can't remember why.

Because 2 is worse than 1  :laugh: :laugh:

Anyway. My bad. I'm used to saying 28 since that's my Korean age so I rarely say 18. But like this guy said:

It can also be heard in 38, 78, 118, 1,818... :laugh:

Guess it just depends on how many you give  :wink:

Offline JahMoo

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #696 on: September 01, 2016, 01:12:55 PM »
I can accept foreigners won't have perfect pronunciation but if you're in a coffee shop then the Korean staffs' ears should be listening out for relevant words.  You're not going to go into a coffee shop and ask for a washing machine.  Just listen.

I was in a restaurant once and I called the waitress over and said "물좀주세요".  She looked at me like I had two heads.  But think...I'm eating in a restaurant so she should already be honing in on specific words.  Even if my pronunciation was terrible, she must have heard the 'm' sound and then the following vowel sound.  So I either want water or radish.  She just carried on staring at me, open-mouthed.

Anyway, I'm flogging a dead horse I know.  I'm making no real attempts to learn Korean these days so I can't exactly moan and complain  :sad:

+1
I definitely get the frustration though. There are times when the thing on the menu is literally in English, and yet somehow it's my pronunciation that's strange. It's definitely a valid point. I just wanted to suggest that their POV might be valid too, at least half the time.

Online CO2

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #697 on: September 01, 2016, 01:24:05 PM »
I can accept foreigners won't have perfect pronunciation but if you're in a coffee shop then the Korean staffs' ears should be listening out for relevant words.  You're not going to go into a coffee shop and ask for a washing machine.  Just listen.

I was in a restaurant once and I called the waitress over and said "물좀주세요".  She looked at me like I had two heads.  But think...I'm eating in a restaurant so she should already be honing in on specific words.  Even if my pronunciation was terrible, she must have heard the 'm' sound and then the following vowel sound.  So I either want water or radish.  She just carried on staring at me, open-mouthed.

Anyway, I'm flogging a dead horse I know.  I'm making no real attempts to learn Korean these days so I can't exactly moan and complain  :sad:

+1
I definitely get the frustration though. There are times when the thing on the menu is literally in English, and yet somehow it's my pronunciation that's strange. It's definitely a valid point. I just wanted to suggest that their POV might be valid too, at least half the time.
My favourite thing is when a menu will say 해물탕/해물전 and the English portion will say Haemultang/Haemuljeon

Uhhhhhhhhhh, thanks?

Online kyndo

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #698 on: September 01, 2016, 01:50:55 PM »
,,,
I suspect that, all things being equal, heavily accented English might be easier to understand than an equally poor Korean... but not by much.


But my point is that when you mispronounce English, you aren't accidentally saying completely different English words most of the time. And that adds an extra obstacle to things. Plus English-speakers trying to learn Korean is a relatively new thing here, so almost every Korean you come into contact with is going to be that "monolingual redneck". (I'm not trying to call all Koreans rednecks, this is just for comparison).
I don't really disagree with you, but I don't think people realise how finicky English really is: sure, many words have distinct sounds (especially longer ones), but there are so many different parts of English that can really throw off understanding. Word order is a biggie: English relies heavily on correct word order in order for the desired meaning to come through. Most other languages are much more forgiving (Greek being the prime example).
English also has incredibly messy conjugations that if done incorrectly can elicit those wtm reactions.

Anyway, like I've already said: I agree that English might be somewhat more forgiving than Korean, but the vast majority of a native English speaker's ability to understand accented/mangled English is just that they are so much more accustomed to it.  :undecided:
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 01:53:04 PM by kyndo »

Offline cjszk

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #699 on: September 01, 2016, 02:07:27 PM »
I can accept foreigners won't have perfect pronunciation but if you're in a coffee shop then the Korean staffs' ears should be listening out for relevant words.  You're not going to go into a coffee shop and ask for a washing machine.  Just listen.

I was in a restaurant once and I called the waitress over and said "물좀주세요".  She looked at me like I had two heads.  But think...I'm eating in a restaurant so she should already be honing in on specific words.  Even if my pronunciation was terrible, she must have heard the 'm' sound and then the following vowel sound.  So I either want water or radish.  She just carried on staring at me, open-mouthed.

Anyway, I'm flogging a dead horse I know.  I'm making no real attempts to learn Korean these days so I can't exactly moan and complain  :sad:

+1
I definitely get the frustration though. There are times when the thing on the menu is literally in English, and yet somehow it's my pronunciation that's strange. It's definitely a valid point. I just wanted to suggest that their POV might be valid too, at least half the time.
My favourite thing is when a menu will say 해물탕/해물전 and the English portion will say Haemultang/Haemuljeon

Uhhhhhhhhhh, thanks?

Lol... I really don't appreciate having to explain to many different teachers that Korean in alphabet form is actually not accurate. I had one co-teacher that insisted that there was some specific way to use alphabet to make Korean student's names sound more accurate. It took her an entire month of struggling to finally get it- there isn't.

Ordering food at a restaurant where there is Korean words in an English menu... I actually have never seen this happen yet, probably because I don't really hang out with foreigners (losing my roots...).

English Speaker: Haemuljeon jusayoh (헤이물지온 주세이요우!)
Korean Speaker: ???????