Discipline tips?

[Brian]

(Sorry, Alex, I'm gonna get wordy, so I just bolded the talking points)

Hi, I'm curious what some of you have done when there are discipline issues in class.  Most of my classes go well, but a few are just nightmarish. 

For instance, one of today's first grade classes (MS) was five minutes late, took a few more minutes to get settled, didn't bring their materials, and basically chatted away the whole time.  I tried to push through with "please be quiet," but having to say it every minute makes it meaningless.  The co-teacher was in the room, chiming in every once in a while with an ineffective "조용."  To make matters worse, it was her homeroom, and she didn't really mind how they were acting.  After about 25 minutes of trying to plug away over the noise, I eventually just said "do whatever you want" and let them throw things, pull hair, and scream at each other while I worked on all the other work I have piling up. Last class of the semester for them, so it doesn't really matter anyway.

Are there some classes you just write off?   I mean, I've seen that class about 7 times this year, and it's always the same.  Other classes, with the same number of students doing the same activities, are fine.  (And the classes at my Thursday/Friday school are wonderful). 

I guess the most important thing to do is set the tone early in the year.  Let the students know what you expect and how you expect it.  Keep the coteachers on the same page as well.  Also, make sure the directions are clear and easy, and the kids see the reward in doing each activity you assign. 

But when things get out of hand, what do you do?  How do you reward proper behavior and punish inappropriate behavior.  (I don't believe in giving candy or prizes for doing the things they're supposed to do).  I find yelling really doesn't work too well, as the students don't understand anyway.  Sometimes it works to just teach to the students who are listening, and the rest of the class will fall in.  I try to be pleasant, and to be realistic in my limited role as the whitey who shows up once or twice a month. . . but sometimes it's hard to sugercoat "you just need to shut the f**k up."  (i don't swear in class, just so you know.)   

*sigh* It's just frustrating how some classes can take the easiest of activities and turn them into period-long tortures.

Again, any tips or experiences you'd like to share would be really helpful.   Sometimes I'm just completely at a loss with some of these classes. 

Thanks.

[nicola]

This may totally depend on who your co-teachers are, but I keep whole classes, groups or individuals in after the bell and make them write lines to repent for what they have done. I'm lucky, the teachers at this school always support what I want to do  (they haven't really had much choice because I'm pretty bossy:) which makes me feel that I'm appreciated and that I have some degree of autonomy. I've even had kids back at lunchtime; although to be honest this wasn't worth it because it's my lunchtime too...

I've found that sometimes It's difficult to get kids to come to a lab-room on time and sometimes it's easier to just teach in the classroom (especially if they get a little out of hand if they are sitting in groups)...(having said that they don't seem to have books in their classroom either)... 

Someone told me a good idea (I can't remember who) but you can time the kids from the time they are disruptive and then keep them in for the amount of time that they waste. Threats of running around the field has also worked well for me... 

Also just recognising that especially around this time of year, the grade 3's now know what highschool they are going to and don't care about school and the rest of the kids are asleep with exam study...chilling out and playing Merry Christmas Mr Bean is keeping me sane at the moment...

[capebretonbarbarian]

I use a three strikes approach. The first time I have to speak to a student they have to stand at their desk, none of that half assed bent over leaning on the desk stuff, straight up.

If they decide to disrupt class for whatever reason after that,  they have to stand in front of the class.  They are now my personal assistant.  They hold my chalk, eraser, erase the board etc...  It's great to have an assistant sometimes. 

Third strike they're out.  I stand them in the hall and the other teachers do take notice.  My school has them kneel in the hallway, so they do that.  Then, after class the Korean teacher, student and myself have a little meeting to discuss why I am angry with them and they must apologize.

I let them know my rules at the first of every semester and then I am consistant with them so the students know what to expect.  It works well for me, but every situation is different.  I'm at a girls middle school also, so I think they may be a bit more controllable than boys. 

On occasion there is a class that will like to act up and more severe measures will need to be taken.  Some things I have done in the past were keeping the entire class after the bell.  They have a 10 minute break, half is with me.  Unfortunately you lose some of your break.   Usually it is a group of students which can make that class miserable.  I have had the group who misbehaved come into my classroom during lunch hour and clean my classroom.  Making sure they do the things the regular cleaners never do. 

I"ve even had one of those nightmarish classes.  The students were high on cake from lunch, there was no co teacher and they just finished their grade 3 final exam.  The last thing on their mind was English.  I just tried to explain to them, it's not easy, I know you are tired, you need a break, if you want to study listen quietly, if you don't, be quiet and go to sleep.  These are your 2 choices.  Some went to sleep, but most students listened quietly and we had a semi-productive lesson.   

One thing they did at my former hagwon was take students out of their class and make them stand in another class.  It was really effective.  But, I don't know how the public school teachers would take to you disrupting their class.  Something to think about.   

Hope it helps.

[Samuel]

 I don't think there is much you can do. I have given students detention, given them lines, sent them into the hall, made them stand at the front, stopped teaching until they are quiet, and yelled.

 Now I just try to make it through the class. I try to play games. I put the bad students I hate on the same team, and make sure they lose. So the good, quiet students will win the game and get my candy. There is no way in hell I reward the bad asses. Yes, I am evil, but why should the good suffer with the bad? Some kids want to have fun and learn. I won't punish them with the hellions.    

[AlexMokpo]

As much as you don't believe they should get a reward for something they should be doing on their own...Candy works.  And once the ball is rolling, no one notices when you don't give out more candy - they only remember when you DID and keep trying for more.  A good brainstorming lesson with Candy for the first few shouted answers (or just the best few) really gets your class on a good start.  They're suddenly alert and will respond when asked future questions (followed by a whine "teacher, candy!"  that's ignored).

I hate that my hellion classes are just a small group of kids.  Or when I have a small group of kids who really try in a generally crappy class. 

My favourite punishment in this time of the season... stand them up, take off their coat, and send them into the unheated hallway.  How long you leave them out there is up to you.

If most, but not all, of your class is being jerks, walk around with a paper and have all the kids that are actually being good write their names.  (the others not writing their names will know exactly what's up instantly)  The next class have everyone stand up.  Tell them as you read off their names they will sit down.  Everyone standing go stand in the hall.  Everyone in the class...  do whatever it was you had planned.  (These will be the best classes you ever teach too, so it'll really work double for your mental health)

I thought your idea of giving up was very good. I'm surprised no one took notice or cared.  When I walk out on a class back to my office, or just sit down on the computer and start doing other stuff, within 5 minutes I'll get a class-apology from a designated apologizer and upon resuming things run very smoothly (so smoothly that the wasted 5 minutes is made up for).

But really...all I can say is.... candy, candy, CANDY.  A massive bag of tiny suck-candies costs 3.50$ at Emart and will last a month.  It's the best investment of your life (and seeing their happy smiling faces when you give them the candy is totally worth it).  Use it.
And I dont look at it as a bribe, because what actual insentive do they have to be in your class?  none.  It's not marked, and most really don't care about English.  So I think of it (sadly) as pay.  Just like you wouldn't do your job for free, neither would a teenager learn for no reason.

[Brian]

Thanks for the tips. 

I'm going to try and switch some things up next semester.  I'll incorporate some of the things mentioned here, and also get on some of the lazier coteachers to really help me accomplish what I want to accomplish. 

My stomach turns at the thought of giving students candy for answering a question, or for doing homework, or for not ripping out each other's hair . . . they should do these things, and they should be expected to do these things.  It would never occur to a Korean teacher to give candy to a student for reading a passage out of a book, or whatever, and if a student were to say "기브 미 켄디이이이~~!!!"  to a Korean teacher you can damn well be sure that the bamboo sword would come out.

. . . but, I need to come up with something for next semester.  A way of making sure the basics are covered---everyone has books, worksheets, notebooks, pencils---and rewarding extra credit like participation.  Maybe reward the day's top student or top 3.  I like the idea Chris had of basicaly raffling off that bear for Christmas time last year, so maybe I could do something similar.

(Alex, I'm gonna get wordy now, so just skip it.  )

I'm curious, because I haven't seen any authentic demos and haven't talked extensively to many PS teachers, how your classes generally go.  I see some of the lessons on here and in the JLP book, and I think "oh man, no way," but maybe I just expect too much? 

Do your students come prepared?  Are the generally chatty amongst themselves?  Do they begin when you say "let's begin?"  A lot of mine classes run smoothly, especially at my newer school, but then there are others that are really challenges.  The advice I got from a Korean co-teacher was "teach English conversation" and when I pressed the issue, she said "Shane gave them candy," haha. 

I'm becoming a little more convinced that it's difficult to run things the way a Korean would.  I'm all for having a fun time and for doing comparatively easy lessons, but I expect the most basic of respect and preparedness.  Greet me properly (no "hiiiiii," or "yo," or "hey you," or other catcalls), bring your materials, try hard, and don't tear up the room or each other. 

[AlexMokpo]

What's wrong with "Hiiiii"??  Moreover, do you think you would be greated with such grace and enthusiasm in Canada?  Probably not.  Our kids are even more monstrous.  And I'm working hard to GET my kids to greet me with "yo man" and "hey" instead of constantly only saying hello or hi.  Learn some variety, kids!

Well if you want to be like a Korean, and utterly refuse to give candy, just grab yourself a bamboon stick and bring it to class.  It's what they do.  They get results.
(that was supposed to sound sarcastic, as I'm hoping you/all foreigners have more dignity than to act like that)

It's a constant battle to have them come prepared.  Rather than try to win it, just make shorter lessons to bank on wasting 5 minutes sending kids back to their homeroom to get pencils and notebooks. (and the time spent is worth the fact that they'll all actually be writing... and in something they'll keep at the end of the day, rather than a scrap piece of paper borrowed from a friend).  You've been here longer than me, I'm surprised you haven't yet adopted the "well, do I really care if they don't learn anything today?" attitude yet
In my second year I've been showing a lot of South Park videos just because it's easier than teaching some classes.  They enjoy it, I enjoy it.  Don't get your panties in a bunch for jerks who don't deserve your energy.

Also, do you really care if they tear up the room or each other?  The other Korean teachers don't.  Just don't leave anything important in there (as I've learned the hard way...several times over)

[Brian]

Thanks for the reply.  Like I said I have no idea what goes on in your schools. 

Everybody's gonna have their own preference for greetings.  I try to cut down on the catcalls (hey man, yo, you) and screaming (hiiiiiiiiiii) and other stuff because it's not even remotely polite, friendly, or appropriate.  The students aren't doing it to be cheerful, they're doing it to be obnoxious and to get a laugh from their friends. 

I don't really care what happens in Canada, as I'm not Canadian.  But I see your point.  However, hey don't do it to Korean adults, and they wouldn't dare scream "안녕" to a teacher, and not because they're afraid of getting hit.  Anyway, everybody has their own take on it, so whatever.  Some thing the attention is good, others think it's out of line.   I was hanging out with a foreign guy last summer and he responded to every single shout, taunt, catcall, pidgin, whatever that was hurled at him on the street.  Others don't even acknowledge it.  I try to encourage my students to speak to foreigners as humans, and not as zoo animals, so that's why I do it my way.  It doesn't make them any less happy or enthusiastic.  I know some people think "who cares?" or "why does it matter what they call you?"  Well, we all have our own little pet peeves . . .

I hear you on the candy . . . and like I said I'm debating with myself what to do next semester.  I still think it's pretty ridiculous.  I'll have to find a happy medium. 

Relieved to hear it's a constant battle to have students come prepared and actually sort of a little kinda ready to do something.  Not exactly relieved, I guess, but I thought it was just me. 

I haven't adopted the "I don't care" attitude yet . . . though some days I'm tempted.  I see each class once or twice a month, or between 5 and 8 times a semester (depending on festivals, holidays, and tests).  If they don't learn anything for one or two of those classes, that's 20%-40% of their time with me right there.  Like I said, on the one hand I want to lean toward having fun (as I'm just a guest speaker), but on the other hand I see them so infrequently and there are such high expectations (maybe?) for native speakers that I hate to just stick a paper in front of them or play bingo all day.

Anyway, thanks again. 

edit: typos.

[Samuel]

My middle school kids didn't come to class prepared. So I locked the lab. When the bell rings, I make them line up. Students enter one at a time, but only if they have a pen and their worksheet from last class. So far it is working, but some students just don't come to class prepared. So I make those students sit on the floor at the front of class to do the worksheet over again from the previous class while I teach my new lesson.
The bottom line, however, is this: if disciplining the students is more stressful or wasteful than letting them act like jerks while I teach a half-ass lesson, I don't let myself care. Giving candy is not for the students--it is for me. It is the only thing that works. It is the only thing to make students shut up and listen. I am not wasting my free time between classes or afterschool to discipline some brats. No way. That only increases the stress.

Also, if some highschool kids say [mod edit: **** you] to me as I pass, I say [mod edit: **** you, too" right back. I have no patience for [mod edit: ********] anywhere.

[capebretonbarbarian]

Stamp system, 

I have always been opposed to giving candy to students for something I think they should be doing.  Heck, I never got candy for answering questions when I went to school.  As a teacher, I always kept candy for a special treat- Hallowe'en, Christmas or sometimes for game winners. 

However, I did try something new this year.  I use a stamp system.  If a student answers a question, they get a stamp.  (I staple a stamp page to the inside cover of their book) 

After 4 classes or so, I go around and count all the stamps.  The student in the class with the most stamps is given a prize and any other student with one or multiple stamps will get a candy.  No stamp, no candy.  *No student can when two times in a row.* 

This way, I only have to give out candy once every 4th class and the students have some incentive to participate.  I buy cheap snacks at Homeplus for prizes and throw them in a box.  The winning student can pick what they want in front of the class.  It gets a little expensive when you have 30 different classes, but it does take a long time to see a class four times. 

I found that participation has really gone up with this.  Some students that never spoke before are now participating often.  Students even come to me in the hall or outside and brag to me about how many stamps they have.  I never have trouble getting volunteers to read or do dialogues. 

At first it was overwhelming but once the students were used to my rules- raise your hand quietly and I will pick you.  None of this, me, me, me, me, Na yo! It works fine.     

As far as discipline, stamps can be taken away, crossed off, for bad behavior which also helps.  I feel it has been a great success at my school and my co teachers seems to like this approach.     

I have 6 big tables in my classroom.  So, it can be difficult to stamp kids in the back 3 tables.  I bought to stamp pads and my co teacher takes care of stamping the back 3 tables for me.  I found that this has gotten the co teacher more involved.  Instead of sitting and falling asleep, they have to move around a bit. It helps to keep the kids in line when a teacher is consistently passing them.  Even one of my co teachers who frequently missed classes, now comes on a regular basis.       

[AlexMokpo]

HAHAHAHAHA  Samuel, your [mod edit: ... ] statement made me laugh so hard.

Presently, I'm actually reading/writing on here during a class.  They're beyond stupid and beligerant...
This is the SECOND time I've gone over "how are you", and how to respond with something otehr than "fine"...this is the SECOND time I've had to make them write lines and repeat over and over and over...and I'm sure they're too stupid to retain it again today.  I cant believe i'm having to teach this sh*t to 17 y/o's.

[Arsalan]

My middle school kids didn't come to class prepared. So I locked the lab. When the bell rings, I make them line up. Students enter one at a time, but only if they have a pen and their worksheet from last class. So far it is working, but some students just don't come to class prepared. So I make those students sit on the floor at the front of class to do the worksheet over again from the previous class while I teach my new lesson.
The bottom line, however, is this: if disciplining the students is more stressful or wasteful than letting them act like jerks while I teach a half-ass lesson, I don't let myself care. Giving candy is not for the students--it is for me. It is the only thing that works. It is the only thing to make students shut up and listen. I am not wasting my free time between classes or afterschool to discipline some brats. No way. That only increases the stress. It's better to let the crap flush ever time the bell rings than plunging the shitter.
Also, if some highschool kids say "F**k you" to me as I pass, I say "F**k you, too" right back. I have no patience for assholes anywhere.

I was a disciplinarian myself, and I had no choice about it.  I did reward the good students, but at the end of the day I wasn't there to make friends, so I was known as the "mean" teacher.  I liked being mean to stupid kids, don't ask me why.  Strangely the boys took well to the discipline, while the girls on the other hand resented the embarrassment they had to go through when they completely slacked off.  You'd think they'd try to avoid it next time around, but no...  so I have to agree with you.

[Samuel]

 Alex: it is amazing how dumb some kids are. They just don't care about English. It makes me wonder why we are here. Also, once a kid said "f*** you" to my face. Of course I was pissed. So I told my co-teacher. She pretended not to know what "f*** you" meant, then she doubted whether I heard her correctly. So I told her that either she yells at the [mod edit: student] or I bring him to the vice principal. The vice principal was [mod edit: a mean person] , that loved to wail on kids with his stick to make them cry. I was bluffing. I would never do that, but the kid soon apologized and became my best student in class. Perhaps he was attention hungry.
 Momo: Very funny. Some girls call me mean. I make the bad a**** stay in the hall where it is cold. Ha ha ha ha. Let them freeze.

[Brian]

Thanks to everyone for sharing.  I'm going to try a more consistent approach next semester.  I like the stamp card system as a reward. 

I used to read the lessons here and in the JLP book and think "wtf?!? you can get your students to do THAT?!?"  I imagined classes of smiling, angelic faces working on riddles, essays, dictation exercises, and creative activities . . . and contrasted those with my classes of students who, in spite of having to read stories, write letters, do grammar activities, translate passages, and memorize lists of vocabulary for their Korean teachers, couldn't be bothered to respond to "How are you?" have no idea what a verb is, can't make a sentence with the vocabulary words they spent all week memorizing, and think it appropriate to bounce around the room killing each other.  Yeah, I get that English is hard and foreigners are weird, but...

I feel bad because I only see them 6 or 7 times all semester . . . kind of a waste when some classes don't accomplish anything.  I'll have to change things up a little next time around to see if that works.

[Scott]

I realize this is an old thread but I just read it all after a real bad start to this week and it gave me a bit of insight. 

Having said that, no one really mentioned how to deal with the four or five kids in each class who just don't give a f**k.  Do you just let them not give a f**k?  I'm really new so this seems weird to me.  There were no classes when I was growing up where a kid could just sleep through and not do the activities.  I gave an interview sheet for them to fill out.  I explained it VERY thoroughly to make sure they undertsood what to do.  Half of them came back COMPLETELY empty.  They just didn't try. 

How do you handle that?   

[Scott]

I'm a little depressed because I keep reading the lesson plans on this site (which is awesome) and whenever it gets to 'then I get them to practice this in groups' I cringe.  So far the 'practicing' in groups has just meant 'hang out and speak Korean with buddy'.   

Any tips? 

[Scott]

That's helpful.  Thanks.  As an update though...  I got my co-teachers to agree to give me 5% of their mark.  I now have a 'respect' page that I bring to class.  If they participate and respect me, they do not get their names on the page.  So far so good...  Out of 7 classes I got 5 names.  We'll see how it goes though... 

[amandaz]

All my classes run fairly well, I've never had a class I had to give up on. I attribute this to a great discipline/ reward system put in place by the previous NET.  I work at an all boys middle school, so I knew I had to be hard core from the beginning. But basically I give them a speaking test at the end of the semester. This is worth 10% of their total grade. If they speak English during class they can earn a sticker. 5 stickers = an extra credit point on their speaking test. So, if they try hard in class, it doesn't really matter if they bomb the test. For low level students this could mean even saying one word. I had out TONS of stickers.
Occasionally I reward with candy, usually after finals when the stickers mean nothing.
For punishment they are either sent out in the hallway or the whole class is kept after with their heads down on the desk. I also move students around so they are not with their friends. I am very swift with punishment. Once I punish one student, the rest pay attention.
One great way to make sure they complete their worksheet is standing by the door when the class is over and checking each individual one. If they are not finished or don't make sense they have to go back and finish. Works every time! Good luck out there!!

[dporter]

Dporter replied: having them come in during break.
Good luck.

Not difficult at all. Heck, we have one teacher who stands at the front gate each morning. His job is to carry out punishments from the previous day. Teachers tell students who are acting out they have to see Mr. Lee the next morning. Mr. Lee makes them do the duck-walk for 10 or 15 minutes. Some days I see 5 or 6 students duck-walking around the parking lot.

I might just start sending them to Mr. Lee myself.

[muadib]

yeah, I naively thought I was going to be teaching english here. The kids who have private english classes after school really make themselves noticed but some if these kids are generally just disrespectful, when this happens I just try to put them on the spot, which has met with mixed results.

Often when I notice someone is not participating at all I will get in their face and ask them to repeat after me and somehow they think that a blank stare is going to get them off the hook. Some of them genuinley don't understand but you can see it in their eyes if they are just being jackasses. With my lower level students I just work on the most basic stuff and try to get them speaking above a whisper.

Basically I can get my kids to repeat what I say but trying to get them to think and generate their own sentences is like pulling teeth.

The woman who was my teacher trainer was saying that the kids should be producing 50-70% of the total speaking time in class. Absolutely laughable. I am lucky to get them to remember how to respond to "thank you" without feeding them the answer.

It's a tough haul but I guess that's what I signed up for.

I am thinking of reformatting my lessons to absolute beginners (I teach middle school) and trying an exclusively communicative approach. what do you think? am I just fooling myself?